Sub sonic shooting to 800yds with 300 BLK

culater

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This is for purely for experimention and fun, to see if i can get to 800 yd subsonic with a 300 blk using a 225 ELD.

My setup is a 16in ar 15 upper with a 1-6 twist that i bought from a hide member last month with only 25 rds threw it.
I have a 30 moa larue base with a BSA FFP 4-14x44 scope. I might use my vortex razor gen 2 instead.
The load will be 11.4 gr of CFE BLK with all new gem tech brass with a 225 ELD. OAL will be 2.255 push about 1050 FPS,and with a 30 cal can also.
Ill try to record it and will post my results after next weekend range trip. Should be a fun experiment
 

Kickin45

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I don’t know that this is gonna be possible, but I love 300blk so I’m curious about this thread. May I ask why such a heavy projectile instead of a 200or 208gn?
 

culater

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Its Because I have a half box of them that I'm not going to use.Might as well shoot them

I do have other 30 cal bullets that i will try.I do have some Berger 215 hybrid,200 ELD-X,208 AMAX

They will be very stable all the way there with the 1-6 twist. Just tag along and enjoy the show.
 

culater

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All powder charges will be weighed on my Sartorius Entris down to .002 of a grain. The only thing I can't measure is seating pressure.
 

ShooterwithNoName

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I just typed in quick numbers for fun just to see what your drop is going to be at 800yds, with the 225ELD @ 1050fps.

I may be off, I'm just using an online calculator and the default conditions. So please feel free to correct me as you will have more accurate data for your conditions.

At 800yds its gonna drop: -1188.38"
That's 141.75 MOA or 41.23 MILs.
2.8 second flight time and a 5mph full value wind would push it 42-1/4".

That's straight lobbing it. But I think it can be done. I would try for a calm day. Cant wait to see you do it, sounds fun anyway. How are you gonna compensate for that elevation?

Max Elevation adjustment on the BSA is 26.5MIL + 30MOA base gives you roughly 50-55MIL there. I don't know how many MILs your reticle will let you hold but your going to need some serious cant.
 

ShooterwithNoName

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So 30MOA = 8.8MIL or so...

So that's 26.5MIL + 8.8MIL for the base=

35.3MILs

So your lacking +/- 6MILs to be held over with your reticle. Sorry... I don't usually ever mix MOA and MIL as seen above...

I fixed it anyway...
 

steve123

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I tried shooting long range with the 300BO I had. The vertical was horrible past 450-500Y. That was with 230 hybrids and 208 eldm. I measured powder to the kernel as well. You'd think such high BC bullets would do better in the wind, but going subsonic speeds they blow like crazy.

Then if I loaded the light bullets fast they blew in the wind bad as well at those same distances. I was done with 300BO at that point. Kind of a fun experiment and I wish things had gone better.

I find it interesting that my friends with Buffalo rifles using cast bullets and black powder had less vertical than I did???

Later I went the exact opposite, bought a 20-221AI. It's a hilarious little cartridge to play with. Basically like a 22-250 with 55 grainers but without the recoil, noise, and barrel heat. If the winds down hitting steel at 700Y isn't very hard, spotting hits and misses are though.

I just get out a bigger gun if I need to.
 

culater

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I tried shooting long range with the 300BO I had. The vertical was horrible past 450-500Y. That was with 230 hybrids and 208 eldm. I measured powder to the kernel as well. You'd think such high BC bullets would do better in the wind, but going subsonic speeds they blow like crazy.

Then if I loaded the light bullets fast they blew in the wind bad as well at those same distances. I was done with 300BO at that point. Kind of a fun experiment and I wish things had gone better.

I find it interesting that my friends with Buffalo rifles using cast bullets and black powder had less vertical than I did???

Later I went the exact opposite, bought a 20-221AI. It's a hilarious little cartridge to play with. Basically like a 22-250 with 55 grainers but without the recoil, noise, and barrel heat. If the winds down hitting steel at 700Y isn't very hard, spotting hits and misses are though.

I just get out a bigger gun if I need to.
I understand ,This is for purely for experimention and fun. I finally tune my load and did my magneto speed test and my SD is 10. My scale can measure down to a few flakes +- .002. Also with a 1-6 twist barrel it will keep the bullet fully stable to 800 yd. I will still post my results this weekend.
I belive the main reason your vertical sucked, is because the brass was not the same head stamp. Your seating pressure would be all over the place,and your vertical would suffer. Im using same head stamp all Gemtech brass,I bought 1500 of them new. Also I would venture that your barrel is a 1-8 twist and was not stabilizing the bullets pass 400yds. Any how Ill go out and do my science experiment and get back to you.
 
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steve123

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Yeah, it's fun to experiment, hopefully you'll have better luck than I did.

Mine was a Ruger Ranch with a 16" 7 twist. Same headstamp brass. I do admit I only took the experiment so far. Well the rifle was moa at best.
 

culater

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One other thing is that I'm going to weight each bullet. Then batching the loaded rounds by bullet weight to minimize vertical. I decided to pick up one box of the 225 ELD today. I'm this far might as well go all out. LOL
 

Snuby642

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Intresting attempt, I run 220 fb rn 12.1 cfeblk is tomorrows test to see if it cracks.
Mixed brass for now, and some crimp refining next when I get matching brass.

I think when you weigh the bullets you will find about 1/2 of a percent margin.
I'm thinking any enviromentals will be more of a variance. 20181002_214212.jpg
 

culater

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The longest sub shooting was 600yds with my 308 with 1-12 twist. Shooting a Hornaday 160 FTX at 1050 fps load with 9.7 gr of trailboss. It was consist hitting 50% of the time. Funny thing was if the sun was shining just right I could see the base of the bullet fly toward the steel.
 
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The King

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we did this to 850m. Had a scope with 50 mils on the knob and 25 mils in the reticle. man did we use it too.

the thing is, the bullets are coming in at this massive down angle. and as such, the danger zone is very tiny. it was fun though.

240 gr hornadys were lovely. noveske barrel from when he was still alive.

the reason the wind fucks it up so bad is time of flight. it’s in the wind for so long it can’t help but get blown arouns
 
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culater

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All loaded up and ready to go for this weekend. I ll try to get it on video and post it up here. I ll hit the 200 yd plate first then go to 500 yd plate then 800 last.My goal is to get to the range before the open when the winds are mostly calm an go from there.
 

Hairy Biker

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I like the 1/6 twist approach. My 30BR with a 1/8 cannot handle the 240s without buckets of vertical so looking forward to your results with the faster twist.
 

Bulletsmith

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The best projo to use is going to be a round nose flat base, The boat tail bullets with long noses wont shoot very well in subsonic flight as they were not meant to in the first place. I have had good luck to 650yds. (80-90% hits with a .308 1/8 twist. You can find an accuracy node just like with full power ammo, a little harder because you have to stay under a certain velocity. I have had very good accuracy with my 308 at 1-200 yds. I make my own projectiles and I prefer to use a .309 flat base bullet. It seals better and has less gas bleed by. And they just shoot better.
 
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Snuby642

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I have been testing 300 subs, 220gr .
I ran 12.1 gr of cfe yesterday and they did not crack with my can.
When I ran the 11.4 they didn't group well in my 1/7 16 inch.
Flat base round nose is working for me on short range, may not at your distance.
Did you crono your 11.4? Book says about 960fps .

Spife turned me onto this load.
I want to see you make your goal and another 100fps will help I think.

Funny how much time and trouble we go to making an old buffalo gun
Out of our modern arms.lol
 
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Strykervet

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I've got better results with .300BLK when it first came out than I expected or was written about it. At 200m, it didn't drop too much and maintained a lot of velocity, however, the longer the bullet is in flight, the longer gravity has to work on a bullet that is slowing down, albeit slowly, but over time it still has a lot of drop. But I figured to 400 that it'd be useful still. Beyond that I don't know. And the dual reticles for supers and subs really don't give much range at all for the subs compared to the supers.

Also, consider some of the super and mag .30's firing 220's. They have much higher velocity at 800m with the same BC... And they still have some drop. Where there's a will there's a way, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Not sure what you'll gain by doing it.

Good luck though, I'd be interested in the results all the same!
 

Snuby642

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I think my mixed brass is killing my would be nice groups on the blk loads.
I guess I could stick the calipers over the damn ever present flier? Lol20181017_194550.jpg
 

j-huskey

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300bo brass made from cut down 223 is the absolute worse for differing neck thickness and consistent neck tension. Even sorting by headstamp will not guarantee consistent brass. Different LC 16 lots made 1st ot year versus end of year, or on different machines can have varying wall thicknesses between early/late lots.

Mixing hornady/remington/sig/brand x, can be just as bad.

That is a fact of reloading any caliber and a guarantor of weird fliers.

I'm waiting to see the results from this topic. I've shot mine to 500 with hornady, Remington, and sig factory sub loads. You can barely hear the "tap" when it hits steel. But, it's fun.

I load 1680 in bo with 220 smk, even loaded some 240's, and I load trail boss in 308 with 180 or 220 round nose flat base 30-30 bullets, with very good success with both.

Consistent neck tension is an absolute requirement for good results. Jmhe, ymmv.
 
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Snuby642

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So a brass dilemma ensues. For the 300blk bolt gun.
Range brass, sometimes free.
New brass, 25c a round if I'm lucky.
Loaded Supers at 80c a piece.

I don't care about shooting supers, but the brass would be fire formed.

Do subs ever fire form?
Have been fl sizing.
 

j-huskey

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Never cared if subs fireformed. Always minimum fls to guarantee consistent "sizing" to further guarantee reliability under super nasty gun. Hog tusk in leg not on option list. Gun reliability function first on option list.
Or, if shorty bo is your door gun, even more critical. And I prefer quiet short bo over handgun.... just sayin, that requirement starts the thought process on my reloading. And I trim them and taper crimp them too. Its gotta work right every time... jmho/e
 

Snuby642

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Ya thats what I have been doing fls , weigh each load to 0.1gr and then crimp.
Got 2 rem 700 aac bolt guns and an sbr I'm feeding.
Fls will keep me square. Your right on that.

Guess I will get some new brass and sort range brass.


Just working on getting sub moa subs becase the factory stuff isn't cutting it.
 

j-huskey

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The sig factory stuff is the most consistent bo factory ammo I've ever shot.
Hornady second, almost with a guaranteed flier, and my hornady in my grendel does exactly the same thing. Sorting out the flier brass and reloading the non fliers and weighing them results in much better results both in bo and grendel. In hornady brass, bo and grendel the flier brass either weighs more per case, or when reloading, the neck tension is different from all the others, way different.
The Remington factory ammo has been the pits... the fired brass, weighed and sorted, has been some really good results. Jmhe
 

culater

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I hope Culater hits at 800.
I have hits on 200 with subs but normally stay at the little boys range, 50-100.
We shall see tommrow morning. I posted a note to the guy I bought my gemtech brass from. To see if he had any left. Hope he will respond on this thread
He had about 1500 leftover all new last time I contacted him a month ago. May you can work a deal to pick up a batch of 500
 

culater

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Went out to the range all day and had some fun running the 225 subs. I sighted in at hundred and move out to 600 yds with ease.The 1-6 twist barrel perform like a champ.
65E66B47-7381-47DE-8CDF-2F07EA76E59F.jpeg
The 800 yd is the back right mound. I waited a couple hours to allow the temp to rise. I tried to get some video but my camera fell down because the wind pushed it face first. I couldn’t see it because I put it behind the 700 YD target in front of the 800 yds mound.
D75B29F0-5202-4931-8922-267535BFC1B0.jpeg
This was my shooting position I was 2 for 50
With one recovered bullet
20FBE4FC-6CC3-4852-8F14-1B6DB4B12ECE.jpeg
The only big factor was the wind. If I do this again I’ll do it all my shooting in the morning. But from this experiment long range subbing should be keep at 600yds and under. From a military point of veiw if thier is one,subbing should be under 400 yds. An lastly Subbing for hunting should be 100yds max. It would be fun to have a PRS sub competition to a max of 600yds. It would keep thing fresh for all shooters.
 
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culater

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I ll upload the video later even though you won't see anything. But you can hear the difference between the subsonic rounds and the supersonic rounds. you will hear the 2 hits.
 
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Kickin45

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Still pretty impressive. It’d be like throwing ribbons up in the air and hoping they land in a specific spot. Definitely a challenge. Hmmm, new LRS stage? 😁
 

Snuby642

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Ya glad you tried it, still working on eliminating fliers at 100.
Am getting sub moa results with the exception of the 1 in 5 fliers.
Will post on that if it happens with new brass, ect.

My reloading needs a tweaking, and shooting is being worked on with some upgrades.

Then I will step up to some range when the short range gets consistant sub moa.
Need to shoot some "pet" factory ammo and reload that brass.
I think range pickup brass is killing me on consistant loads but was good for prelims.
 
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culater

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Ya glad you tried it, still working on eliminating fliers at 100.
Am getting sub moa results with the exception of the 1 in 5 fliers.
Will post on that if it happens with new brass, ect.

My reloading needs a tweaking, and shooting is being worked on with some upgrades.

Then I will step up to some range when the short range gets consistant sub moa.
Need to shoot some "pet" factory ammo and reload that brass.
I think range pickup brass is killing me on consistant loads but was good for prelims.
Do you use a bolt or semi
 

Snuby642

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The good groups come from my rem 700 aac blk.
16 inch 920 barrel stock trigger, magpull stock and a crappy nicon 3x9.
I shoot off bags and take my time.
Having cheek weld problems and have a no rise insert on order.
Super low mount rings has me cramming my cheek into stock with thier provided
1/4 inch riser. Could contribute to fliers but still think mixed brass is my main culprate.

New "bags" in development for a trial run, trying new materials to compete with sand bags.
Can't tweek my crimp with mixed brass.

The 220 rnfb rounds seem to be my best for short range but may not make
a 600 yard trip well?
 
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Snuby642

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I think with subs and the small powder charge that the slightest diviance hurts.
Each charge is trickled to 0.0 on my 0.1 gr scale as best I can, pita!
I can only control so much with the equipment I have and do my best.
Between 12.0 and 12.1gr tightened my groups 1/8 inch aproxamatly .
 

culater

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i would try the Honaday 160 FTX for the 30-30 bullet for your bolt gun. You can get to 500 yards with that bullet no issues. I know because I've done with my 308 with a 1-12 twist. Which brass are thinking to buy for you 700 AAC BLK.
The good groups come from my rem 700 aac blk.
16 inch 920 barrel stock trigger, magpull stock and a crappy nicon 3x9.
I shoot off bags and take my time.
Having cheek weld problems and have a no rise insert on order.
Super low mount rings has me cramming my cheek into stock with thier provided
1/4 inch riser. Could contribute to fliers but still think mixed brass is my main culprate.

New "bags" in development for a trial run, trying new materials to compete with sand bags.
Can't tweek my crimp with mixed brass.

The 220 rnfb rounds seem to be my best for short range but may not make
a 600 yard trip well?

i would try the Honaday 160 FTX for the 30-30 bullet for your bolt gun. You can get to 500 yards with that bullet no issues. I know because I've done with my 308 with a 1-12 twist. Which brass are thinking to buy for you 700 AAC BLK.
 

Snuby642

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Mixed range brass shoot.
All loads 12.1 cfe blk all brass prepped the same.
It's like a box of chocolates. Lol
50 yd, rem 700aac all staying subsonic with aac can .
 

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reewik

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I was able to hit 2 of 5 with 175g HPBT using 9.5g of Trailboss going 1050 fps at 500 yards shooting my AI Covert 308. I dialed 65 moa and had to hold 15 moa. It was fun but there is not way I could do it to 800 with my current setup.
 
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culater

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Yea it's fun as heck to just pull the trigger and 2-3 second hear the plate ring. Even crazier is if you record 50 yds before the target.You can't hear the shot but you can hear the bullet coming inbound just before it hits the steel or the ground. All you is a high pich whiz. I'll try again later this year and be sure to get it on a better recording device.So I can clip the video up into smaller sections. I might go for the 1000yds gong. 😁
 

Seandradamus

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The most important thing I’ve learned loading subs for my 300 Blk is , seating depth, seating depth, seating depth... if you load to mag length you will be left with a lot of empty case room
When I started making them shorter the sd’s went way down and accuracy went way up. Sds are single digit with Hornady 225s and Nosler 190s
My 16” 7t will shoot the 190s with 6ish grains of powder in the .2s consistently, I know that makes me sound like a liar , I was just as surprised.
My 8” AR will shoot .5 moa at 100 with the 225s or 220s at around 2.1 OAL too. It all came together when I started matching seating depth to powder volume, I use Bullseye ,unique , lil gun, 4227,w296,1680
Glad to share loads if anyone would like.
 
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07jkjeeper

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The most important thing I’ve learned loading subs for my 300 Blk is , seating depth, seating depth, seating depth... if you load to mag length you will be left with a lot of empty case room
When I started making them shorter the sd’s went way down and accuracy went way up. Sds are single digit with Hornady 225s and Nosler 190s
My 16” 7t will shoot the 190s with 6ish grains of powder in the .2s consistently, I know that makes me sound like a liar , I was just as surprised.
My 8” AR will shoot .5 moa at 100 with the 225s or 220s at around 2.1 OAL too. It all came together when I started matching seating depth to powder volume, I use Red dot , lil gun, 4227,w296,1680
Glad to share loads if anyone would like.
Love to hear about your 1680 loads. 10.5 1:7 barrel on mine and haven't had much success.
Thanks
 

ddavis

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The most important thing I’ve learned loading subs for my 300 Blk is , seating depth, seating depth, seating depth... if you load to mag length you will be left with a lot of empty case room
When I started making them shorter the sd’s went way down and accuracy went way up. Sds are single digit with Hornady 225s and Nosler 190s
My 16” 7t will shoot the 190s with 6ish grains of powder in the .2s consistently, I know that makes me sound like a liar , I was just as surprised.
My 8” AR will shoot .5 moa at 100 with the 225s or 220s at around 2.1 OAL too. It all came together when I started matching seating depth to powder volume, I use Red dot , lil gun, 4227,w296,1680
Glad to share loads if anyone would like.
Were you able to get Red Dot to work with heavy subs? It must have been almost 10 years ago at this point since I did a bunch of experimenting with subs but I took a gamble on xx grains under a 208 Amax and just ended up with a little pipe bomb blowing out the primer. I figured it was just too hot for jacketed heavy bullets and gave up. I'm guessing the difference between ideal velocity and over pressure probably happens within .2 grains or so. FYI a fun and cheap load especially for critter control is:

90 grain Hornady XTP
4.8 grains Trailboss.

In my 9" barrel it is just over 1k fps and manages to shoot right around an inch at 100 yards, which really surprised me. It also violently expands due to it being a pistol bullet with a massive hollow point.
 

Seandradamus

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Were you able to get Red Dot to work with heavy subs? It must have been almost 10 years ago at this point since I did a bunch of experimenting with subs but I took a gamble on xx grains under a 208 Amax and just ended up with a little pipe bomb blowing out the primer. I figured it was just too hot for jacketed heavy bullets and gave up. I'm guessing the difference between ideal velocity and over pressure probably happens within .2 grains or so. FYI a fun and cheap load especially for critter control is:

90 grain Hornady XTP
4.8 grains Trailboss.

In my 9" barrel it is just over 1k fps and manages to shoot right around an inch at 100 yards, which really surprised me. It also violently expands due to it being a pistol bullet with a massive hollow point.
I apologize, I was using unique and bullseye not red dot behind Nosler 190