Sig has now delivered over 100,000 m17/m18 pistols to MIL

Milf Dots

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SIG SAUER Delivers Milestone 100,000th M17 / M18 Handgun to U.S. Military

Published Date: 11/22/2019
NEWINGTON, N.H., (November 19, 2019) – "SIG SAUER, Inc. is proud to announce the delivery of the 100,000th M17 and M18 for the Modular Handgun System program to the U.S. Military, ahead of schedule, and surpassing the performance standards and requirements since the official contract award in January 2017."
 

Milf Dots

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Linked above are actual contract pistols in the pic- very early m17 pistols were spec'd by the DoD to have coyote color controls, but the Army okayed black to speed up production.

Here's an image of troops testing those early Sig m17 pistols with coyote controls:SigM17TroopsCoyoteControls.jpeg
 
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hermosabeach

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The M17 and M18 handguns are a 9mm, striker-fired, P320-based handgun platform, featuring coyote-tan PVD coated stainless steel slides with black controls and utilize both 17-round and 21-round magazines. The handguns are equipped with SIGLITE front night sights, removable night sight rear plates, and manual safeties. To date SIG SAUER has delivered M17 and M18 handguns to all branches of the U.S. Military and the U.S. Coast Guard.
 
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FrankinND

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Anyone in here have any actual experience with one? Or the civilian counterpart? . Was thinking about picking one up for shits and giggles.
I really like the 226’s and there older stuff but have no idea about there newer striker type fired pistols.

Not much into pistols but Sigs always piqued my Interest.
 
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Milf Dots

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Anyone in here have any actual experience with one? Or the civilian counterpart? . Was thinking about picking one up for shits and giggles.
I really like the 226’s and there older stuff but have no idea about there newer striker type fired pistols.

Not much into pistols but Sigs always peeked my Interest.
The Sig p320 striker pistols are GTG, accurate, reliable, durable. Many of us have switched to them after numerous years with Glocks. For striker fired pistols the triggers are pretty good, totally modular platform that allows for quick hand sizing, and also pistol size changes from sub to compact to full, steel sights right out of the box, great ergonomics.
 
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NighthawkCG

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I was set to get the M17 a while back until I saw them firsthand. Saw six of them at first and within 300-ish rounds, one broke - mag catch broke. It was repaired quickly. Since then, of the six which were originally used I think there are three left that are not in need of repair for one reason or another. These see/saw maybe 400 rounds per week.

A few weeks later, I saw different ones not cycling well at a simple EIC style course of fire. In all fairness though - these may have been brand new and not nearly through break in. What I am not sure of is if they use the pretensioning system or not. The tighter lockup could take a bit to wear in.

Still would like one, but will likely wait a bit to see how they do. Either way, given the reputation of the 320, I have been pretty surprised that these did not perform better. Hoping I just saw a bad batch.
 

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It's only logical to compare striker fired triggers to other striker fired triggers, and hammer fired triggers to hammer fired. Classic Sig p22x triggers are very good, but not relevant to the p320 because of the differences in firing systems.

The Sig p320, HK vp, and Walther PPQ striker fired triggers are the best of the striker fired, and better than Glock and M&P triggers.
 

Milf Dots

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We shoot these pistols extensively at the academy.

They are not HK VP9 reliable.
That's a definitive statement, so you must be seeing a statistically significant number of HK vp pistols at that LE academy. What LE agency is it whose standard issue is the HK vp? Thanks.
 
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The King

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It sure is. Take 5 new Vp9s and 5 new Sig X series guns...and shoot them side by side. For 400 rounds each.

We did this. All 5 sigs needed repairs afterwards. Mostly new guide rods and springs. You know, 25 jams per 50 rounds type bullshit.

All none of the HKs jammed in any way or needed repairs.

I shoot a sig x5 as my main comp gun...And because of that I carry an X carry.

But no fucking way would I trust a sig P320 type pistol with less than 1k down the pipe.

That's a definitive statement, so you must be seeing a statistically significant number of HK vp pistols at that LE academy. What LE agency is it whose standard issue is the HK vp? Thanks.
 
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NighthawkCG

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That sounds pretty similar to what we have experienced here with them. Guess it wasn't a bad batch after all...
 

WATERWALKER

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A few years back I had a chance to shoot a pair of P320s. One was a compact & the other a full-size model. They were both accurate at 25 yards, but I didn’t like either. I thought the triggers were both sloppy & there were several malfunctions during the feed cycle. I wasn’t impressed at all.

Later, Sig took a PR hit w/ the whole drop test fiasco. They didn’t inspire confidence in my opinion.

Last week, a guy I know was trash talking & brought his pistol to the range. His pistol just happened to be a P320. He didn’t shoot it very well, but I won’t hold it against him as he is an Army product, LOL. More importantly, his pistol ran like hammered dog shit. This guy experienced several malfunctions throughout the range session. He asked if I cared to shoot his P320 & I told him I’d prefer to stick w/ my Glock because it just works.

We took a timeout to squirt some CLP into his pistol. FWIW, it didn’t help much. The guy told me he’s planning to get rid of it in favor of a Glock.

PS When this guy first told me he had a P320 I told him I had a badass new holster for it if he wanted it. He said “Sure!” I told him we just have to cut slits in the trash can for his belt to slide through & he’ll be all set.
 

TxWelder35

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I have a seriously hard time believing that a 320 can’t go 400 rounds without malfunctioning.
 
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Cascade Hemi

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I have a seriously hard time believing that a 320 can’t go 400 rounds without malfunctioning.
SIGUSA produces pickled dogshit, from junky scopes to pistols filled with "made in India" parts. SIG isn't what it used to be.
 

powdahound76

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My brother got one. No malfunctions yet. While it wasn't as good as the old W German sigs I have shot a lot, the trigger was learnable and was able to shoot pretty well with it from 5, 7, and 10 yds.
 
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308pirate

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Not a SIG fan, but P320s are starting to show up in USPSA circles, and very few people put more rounds through a pistol (between training, practice, and matches) than us. They seem to run well and to be very accurate.

I'm a CZ guy and the P-10F is starting to win me over to the striker side, but I can't deny what I see P320s do in competition.
 
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MCSO1357

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VP9 is the benchmark (in my opinion) for striker-fired pistols. As reliable as Glock, better ergos than any plastic striker pistol, and shoots lights out in my hands. I picked up the 5" competition-ready slide assembly and it is even more accurate, fast and balanced. I had a P320, it felt fine but shot like shit. I have not played with the CZ offering, I would expect good things as I love their hammer-fired offerings.
 

308pirate

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VP9 is the benchmark (in my opinion) for striker-fired pistols. As reliable as Glock, better ergos than any plastic striker pistol, and shoots lights out in my hands.
I tried a VP9 at the rental range. It was a close contender to the P-10, but I already have a crapload of CZ P-09 magazines that, depending on their generation, either fit the P-10F outright or do so after cutting in an extra notch on the side.
 
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The King

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I run one in competition. And probably shoot more rounds through a pistol than is reasonable.

It is accurate and reliable.

It was also a ridiculous piece of shit before I replaced the guide rod and spring as well as one of the 4 magazines being defective.

And it was one of several that had this lovely behavior.

Not a SIG fan, but P320s are starting to show up in USPSA circles, and very few people put more rounds through a pistol (between training, practice, and matches) than us. They seem to run well and to be very accurate.

I'm a CZ guy and the P-10F is starting to win me over to the striker side, but I can't deny what I see P320s do in competition.
 
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Milf Dots

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It sure is. Take 5 new Vp9s and 5 new Sig X series guns...and shoot them side by side. For 400 rounds each.

We did this. All 5 sigs needed repairs afterwards. Mostly new guide rods and springs. You know, 25 jams per 50 rounds type bullshit.

All none of the HKs jammed in any way or needed repairs.

I shoot a sig x5 as my main comp gun...And because of that I carry an X carry.

But no fucking way would I trust a sig P320 type pistol with less than 1k down the pipe.

You said academy- which LE academy was this, or is it a privately owned range? What's your role there? And I'll ask again, which LE agency is issuing as standard the HK vp pistol?

That sounds like a planned, very focused test, motivated by a specific event, which means there's almost certainly footage of it, if you care to point us to that video. Please list the date of the testing, and all serial numbers for the 10 pistols in this test. Thank you.

Knowing the barrel lockup on the p320 X series is much tighter than on regular p320 pistols and regular HK vp pistols, and knowing the regular HK vp are the competitor to the regular p320, why weren't regular p320s selected for 'the test' instead of X series? What specific new factory ammo was used, and was it 115gr, 124, 135, 147gr? Brass, alum, or steel case?

We know the regular Sig p320 pistols are widely issued as standard in many American LE agencies and all four branches of the U.S. military, plus the Coasties, and the vast majority of these p320s are not X-series, and we know that virtually no medium to large American agencies are issuing HK vp pistols, so it's fascinating that you somehow are regularly seeing such a large number of HK vp pistols to make a credible comparison to the p320... You'd have to be seeing at least one HK vp for every 1 or 2 regular Sig p320s for it to be more than an anecdotal observation.

Yet it's nearly impossible to find even a few small U.S. agencies whose standard issue pistol is the HK vp, which brings us back around to the fact that sales of HK vp pistols are so low compared to p320 sales that in order for your test claim to be credible- you'd have to have a local decent sized LE agency issuing as standard the HK vp.

Your rate of stoppage claims- FIFTY percent- for the Sig x-series p320 is so far outside anything I've ever read or heard before that surely your test results can be found at Glocktalk, Sigtalk, Defcarry, Sig forum, M&P forums, youtube. Please provide the link.

Even the haters who hold up the official Army testing of the Sig m17 mhs pistols as 'evidence', can't claim stoppage rates as bad as you claim! I have the entire report from the second DoD m9 trials in 82-83 (there was one cancelled pistols trial in '81), and I have the entire m17 report, and the Sig m17 was more reliable in testing than the Beretta xm9 was in its testing- based on MRBS and MRBF.

I owned one of the early Glocks that wasn't drop safe and had to go back to Glock for the famous six part upgrade, so the p320 drop issue wasn't a big deal to me, and it certainly isn't a factor in any claims about stoppages.
 
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Milf Dots

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I have a seriously hard time believing that a 320 can’t go 400 rounds without malfunctioning.
Not just one, but ALL FIVE RANDOMLY SELECTED x-series p320s for 'the test' somehow had a fifty percent failure rate with broken recoil springs and guide rods, yet not a hint of 'the test' at a single discussion forum or even on youtube. That claimed rate is so much higher than any other on the 'net that it would've been talked about extensively.
 

Milf Dots

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Not a SIG fan, but P320s are starting to show up in USPSA circles, and very few people put more rounds through a pistol (between training, practice, and matches) than us. They seem to run well and to be very accurate.

I'm a CZ guy and the P-10F is starting to win me over to the striker side, but I can't deny what I see P320s do in competition.
I'll probably pick up an HK vp9-B, and CZ P10 model at some point because they're both GTG and interest me.
 

TxWelder35

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You said academy- which LE academy was this, or is it a privately owned range? What's your role there? And I'll ask again, which LE agency is issuing as standard the HK vp pistol?

That sounds like a planned, very focused test, motivated by a specific event, which means there's almost certainly footage of it, if you care to point us to that video. Please list the date of the testing, and all serial numbers for the 10 pistols in this test. Thank you.

Knowing the barrel lockup on the p320 X series is much tighter than on regular p320 pistols and regular HK vp pistols, and knowing the regular HK vp are the competitor to the regular p320, why weren't regular p320s selected for 'the test' instead of X series? What specific new factory ammo was used, and was it 115gr, 124, 135, 147gr? Brass, alum, or steel case?

We know the regular Sig p320 pistols are widely issued as standard in many American LE agencies and all four branches of the U.S. military, plus the Coasties, and the vast majority of these p320s are not X-series, and we know that virtually no medium to large American agencies are issuing HK vp pistols, so it's fascinating that you somehow are regularly seeing such a large number of HK vp pistols to make a credible comparison to the p320... You'd have to be seeing at least one HK vp for every 1 or 2 regular Sig p320s for it to be more than an anecdotal observation.

Yet it's nearly impossible to find even a few small U.S. agencies whose standard issue pistol is the HK vp, which brings us back around to the fact that sales of HK vp pistols are so low compared to p320 sales that in order for your test claim to be credible- you'd have to have a local decent sized LE agency issuing as standard the HK vp.

Your rate of stoppage claims- FIFTY percent- for the Sig x-series p320 is so far outside anything I've ever read or heard before that surely your test results can be found at Glocktalk, Sigtalk, Defcarry, Sig forum, M&P forums, youtube. Please provide the link.

Even the haters who hold up the official Army testing of the Sig m17 mhs pistols as 'evidence', can't claim stoppage rates as bad as you claim! I have the entire report from the second DoD m9 trials in 82-83 (there was one cancelled pistols trial in '81), and I have the entire m17 report, and the Sig m17 was more reliable in testing than the Beretta xm9 was in its testing- based on MRBS and MRBF.

I owned one of the early Glocks that wasn't drop safe and had to go back to Glock for the famous six part upgrade, so the p320 drop issue wasn't a big deal to me, and it certainly isn't a factor in any claims about stoppages.
This. If any gun, especially the new military service season had a 50% failure rate there would be a 50 page thread on arfcom and 1000 YouTube videos on it. You couldn’t put p320 into google without the first 3 pages being about its failure rate. There are too many Agencies and competition shooters using this gun for what you say to be accurate.
 
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Milf Dots

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I run one in competition. And probably shoot more rounds through a pistol than is reasonable.

It is accurate and reliable.

It was also a ridiculous piece of shit before I replaced the guide rod and spring as well as one of the 4 magazines being defective.

And it was one of several that had this lovely behavior.
It's common knowledge that HK had issues with very early vp9s and resolved it with a revised recoil spring assembly, so how is that different from your X-Five being reliable after you did the same? It sounds like a double standard.
 

308pirate

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it was also a ridiculous piece of shit before I replaced the guide rod and spring as well as one of the 4 magazines being defective.
That's the side that I never get to see, by not being an owner.
 

The King

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I had a long reply typed up before I remembered that I don’t need to satisfy some internet blowhard that my actual, extensive, on-the-ground experiences are factual.

That and I need to be back on the road to work, shooting guns all day...every day.
 
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Milf Dots

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I had a long reply typed up before I remembered that I don’t need to satisfy some internet blowhard that my actual, extensive, on-the-ground experiences are factual.

That and I need to be back on the road to work, shooting guns all day...every day.
So instead you deflect and avoid providing any objective info or verifiable details that would substantiate your very specific 'test' and the results you claim that 'test' showed, and then resort to an ad hominem attack against me.

I'm glad your p320 X-Five is very reliable for you after you replaced the recoil spring assembly. I had to do that with my gen 4 Glocks and they were fine afterward. HK did it with early vp9 pistols. It happens with all gun makers.

I'm always interested in facts and credible data that can be verified, because that's how we learn. Rates of problems with any particular model of firearm, based on credible data, are really helpful to shooters and gun makers alike.
 

powdahound76

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Yes. In 225, 226, 228, and 220.

All nice shooters. Learned how to shoot a semi auto on my first pistol, a 225 single stack.
$110 for a case of ammo and I was off to learning.
 

Lkwoolsey

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Anyone in here have any actual experience with one? Or the civilian counterpart? . Was thinking about picking one up for shits and giggles.
I really like the 226’s and there older stuff but have no idea about there newer striker type fired pistols.

Not much into pistols but Sigs always piqued my Interest.
I've put about 2k rounds through my P320....I musta got a gem because I've never had a jam. It's our departments issued gun (we can carry just about anything, our list is extensive and included 9mm, .40, or .45) but most just stick with the 320. Not sure what our SWAT guys carry, but pretty sure it's still a 320, just with flared mag well.
I don't mind the trigger at all, but I'm definitely not into custom pistols or anything like that.
Just my .2
 
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Milf Dots

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Little over 500 rounds on both, one on right is my carry, not huge into pistols but I love to shoot both
View attachment 7202071
Nice pistols. I see you got both the p320-m17 and p365 without manual safeties- that's my preference too. You've probably seen the p320-m18 is out now, but I haven't seen or heard about the option of no manual safety, though I'm sure it's coming.
 

Dan M

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So, SIG complied with the terms of a FFP IDIQ contract. From an acquisitions perspective, a contractor producing deliverables in compliance with the SOW/PWS/SOO is hardly remarkable.

Nothing against the manufacturer or their product...but trumpeting the fact that they are satisfactorily complying with the terms of their contract is ludicrous.
 

308pirate

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Nothing against the manufacturer or their product...but trumpeting the fact that they are satisfactorily complying with the terms of their contract is ludicrous.
+1

That's like bragging that you can drive without hitting pedestrians or parked cars
 
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Milf Dots

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+1

That's like bragging that you can drive without hitting pedestrians or parked cars
I was just surprised it was up to 100K pistols delivered, because it seems like it was just yesterday they got final approval.
 

Milf Dots

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What’s even more remarkable is that w/ the P320s history anyone at all wants to buy it.

I’m sure there’s a huge waiting list.
Most remarkable is that people still post that nonsense about the 320, while ignoring Glock's history of troubles. Some of us Glock owners are honest about Glock's history, while the majority are either in denial of it, or simply unaware of it.
 

WATERWALKER

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I’m a Glock fan to be sure, but I’m far from being a Glock fanboy. Glocks aren’t even my favorite pistols. I’m actually a huge 1911 fan, but for a duty / combat pistol Glock is my first choice due to its reliability, capacity & accuracy. It doesn’t hurt that I like the ergos too.

I’m not a Sig hater, but I have nothing good to say about the P320. I shot last week w/ a guy who was rocking a P320 & we shot about 250-300 rounds apiece. I’m not kidding when I say he had a good 1/2 dozen malfunctions & I continue to be unimpressed. I resisted the temptation to tell him that immediate action consists of spiking it in the deck. That seems to make the P320 fire consistently.

The only malfunctions I’ve had w/ Glocks over the years have been caused by shit ammo. Using duty-rated ammunition my Glocks have run 100%.
 

Milf Dots

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I’m a Glock fan to be sure, but I’m far from being a Glock fanboy. Glocks aren’t even my favorite pistols. I’m actually a huge 1911 fan, but for a duty / combat pistol Glock is my first choice due to its reliability, capacity & accuracy. It doesn’t hurt that I like the ergos too.

I’m not a Sig hater, but I have nothing good to say about the P320. I shot last week w/ a guy who was rocking a P320 & we shot about 250-300 rounds apiece. I’m not kidding when I say he had a good 1/2 dozen malfunctions & I continue to be unimpressed. I resisted the temptation to tell him that immediate action consists of spiking it in the deck. That seems to make the P320 fire consistently.

The only malfunctions I’ve had w/ Glocks over the years have been caused by shit ammo. Using duty-rated ammunition my Glocks have run 100%.
I get that you don't like the 320 and have some catch phrases you like to throw around, but the actual real world facts show that 320s are reliable and durable. Personal anecdotal observations of statistically insignificant numbers of pistols isn't credible data, but it's enough for some to confirm their bias against the 320 and for their favorite brand X.

I know I won't change your mind, and I know you can't change reality.

Me, I like Glocks and 320s, and I'm objective enough to be honest about their pros and cons.
 

WATERWALKER

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You’re right, I have formed my own opinion(s) concerning the P320 based on my direct observation of a few P320s. I have little to no faith in to perform reliably. The first time I shot it I was open minded & it failed to impress. Each time after has only reaffirmed my opinion.

People have their own opinions & that’s great. A coworker stopped by a few days ago w/ a P320 XFive Legion. He shot a bunch of rounds & said he had no issues. Good for him. My opinion remains unchanged.
 
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Milf Dots

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You’re right, I have formed my own opinion(s) concerning the P320 based on my direct observation of a few P320s. I have little to no faith in to perform reliably. The first time I shot it I was open minded & it failed to impress. Each time after has only reaffirmed my opinion...
I have no doubt your bias against the 320 is rooted in emotion, and not in anything objective or credible. But I also know the mountain of evidence proving you wrong won't change your mind.
 

MCSO1357

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I have no doubt your bias against the 320 is rooted in emotion, and not in anything objective or credible. But I also know the mountain of evidence proving you wrong won't change your mind.
whats not objective about a first hand shooting experience where several hundred rounds fired by both himself and other person he was shooting with and witnessing/experiencing first hand malfunctions ? Sounds like to me he tried the pistol out and it was measured, weighed and found wanting.