Shooting new pistol poorly

Jmccracken1214

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Anyone ever change up pistols and not shoot as good?
I shot glock for a long time and switched over to a Cz p10c a year ago, never had any issues, actually shot the p10 better. Got pretty good with it. Recently had a beretta 92 elite ltt catch my eye and sold the p10 to help fund this bad mama..

took it out today and even tho the trigger is lighter and it’s still a quality weapon... I couldn’t do worth a crap. Missing 50% of the time even at 15-20 yards.
I’m sure practice will help but it’s a bit of a bummer to sell a $400 pistol for a $980 pistol and shoot worse than before.

seemed to be off to the left,I’m guessing going from flat trigger to curved, im pulling it weird.
 

OldSalty

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Practice as you stated.

But...

Its also not completely unusual to need to adjust pistol sights to match how you shoot and look down the sights.

If you are consistently off in the same place...and I mean consistently. Then adjust the sights to compensate.
 

Jmccracken1214

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Practice as you stated.

But...

Its also not completely unusual to need to adjust pistol sights to match how you shoot and look down the sights.

If you are consistently off in the same place...and I mean consistently. Then adjust the sight to compensate.
I wonder how on this pistol. They staked the front site, which is more left then right.
 

MadDuner

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Just practice practice and more practice.

Every trip to the range means at least 4 different handguns to practice on. I do work to get the triggers as close to the same as I can, but there’s a big difference between a steel framed full-size with 5” barrel with 20 rounds in the mag, and a micro polymer 2.2” barrel with only 7. NOTHING pisses your buddies off like ringing steel at 200 yds with a 2.2” barrel 9mm handgun!
 

OldSalty

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So standard rear sight. Id put the pistol on a bag at 20 or 25 and shoot a few groups before adjusting anything. Try to eliminate all the variables you can before adjusting.

Then if needed...brass punch also.

 

OldSalty

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That is the plan. I’m going to do that In the next few days.
Good deal.

If I am that far off I might even start at 10 yards and walk it out from there.

Also never hurts to have someone else shoot it and see if they have the same POI.

Nice pistol by the way.
 

Jmccracken1214

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Good deal.

If I am that far off I might even start at 10 yards and walk it out from there.

Also never hurts to have someone else shoot it and see if they have the same POI.

Nice pistol by the way.
thanks, it’s pretty sweet. My friend shot it today and said it was off to the right with him. So who knows. When I saw the front sight over towards the left, I figured that’s what it was. I was steady and made sure to pull straight back nice and slow.

shooting off a bench on paper will Tell me the truth I need
 

lht645

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I have the same thing going on between my Glock and M&P, I shoot to point of aim with my Glock and low and to the right with M&P's (Im a lefty) so I suppose I'm milking the grip, frustrating.
 
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Jmccracken1214

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I have the same thing going on between my Glock and M&P, I shoot to point of aim with my Glock and low and to the right with M&P's (Im a lefty) so I suppose I'm milking the grip, frustrating.
Yea it is. I’m bummed slightly after doing very well with my $400 cz and then I suck with this $1000 pistol lol
 

lht645

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On the left where you don't see a black dot is 45 rounds from my G-19, to the right 45 rounds from my M&P aimed at the center dot, both have ameriglo TFO sights, both 9mm
 

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ShtrRdy

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Are you able to see the sight lift at the moment of firing?

Recently I noticed something I'm doing when shooting transition drills. My shots were ending up 2" - 3" low at 10 yards. Sometimes I could see the sights dip just before lifting. So there's something in my grip or trigger pull that's influencing the shot. Back to group shooting for awhile.
 

WATERWALKER

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Assuming your a right handed shooter, losing points to the left is going to be a grip issue. You’ll need to establish a proper “clam shell” or “nutcracker” grip. This will still require that you pull the trigger straight back to the rear.

I really think that adjusting your sights to overcome this obstacle would be putting a band-aid over a problem; this is a good example of being a good “bad shooter.”

To the other shooter who is dropping points low, you’re slamming the trigger. The good news is that slamming the trigger is easier to correct than most issues. Lots of dry fire & once you can pull the trigger w/ out slamming it move onto dry firing w/ spent brass balancing on your front sight.
 
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308pirate

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This is 110% shooter issue. The combination of a different grip and different trigger plus likely poor grip and/or trigger press mechanics are doing this.

I had the same issue in reverse. Started shooting a P-10F last month, after nearly five years of shooting nothing but CZ DA/SA pistols. First two weeks were a train wreck and it was fixed with lots of disciplined, analytical dry and live fire. Now I'm shooting it better than I've ever shot any pistol and my P-09 collects dust.
 

hermosabeach

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Different grip angle too between Glock and others

As always- start closer- work on the 3 fundamentals

Sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control.

If shooting indoors, more light really helps too...

as you groups are tight at 5 more to 7- 10 etc
 

Alphatreedog

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Azoom snap caps and dry fire for a half hour everyday for a week . You'll be amazed . Then go shoot live at 5yds on the smallest dot you can hit . Get to know the gun , sights , wall , reset and POI . Once you know where you are at move back 5yds .
Lather rinse repeat .
 
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Jmccracken1214

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I’m fine when dry firing. The last match I went to, I had no issues hitting 4x3” plates at 50 yards with my p10.
I shot the Beretta off of a bitch yesterday in the first few shots and still put left and after focusing and really concentrating I got it shooting dead center. But when I would just stand and shoot WinMag I would be good and others I cannot hit a 8 inch plate at 7 yards. I’m going to pick up another cz and practice with the beretta more. I’m not very patient and if I don’t improve in a few months with it, I’ll call it a wash and let it go.
 

308pirate

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I’m not very patient and if I don’t improve in a few months with it, I’ll call it a wash and let it go.
Nothing wrong with that. I gave Glocks a fair shot till I said fuck it this pistol is fucking weird and went to CZs.

I'll never own another Glock. But my P-10F is turning out to be a death ray and I'm running hit factors I never could with a 75 or P-09
 

Jmccracken1214

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Nothing wrong with that. I gave Glocks a fair shot till I said fuck it this pistol is fucking weird and went to CZs.

I'll never own another Glock. But my P-10F is turning out to be a death ray and I'm running hit factors I never could with a 75 or P-09
That’s how I was with my p10, insane and surprised myself how well i shot. I really want to like this beretta, and shoot it well. Ughhhh
 
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WATERWALKER

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I like the Beretta pistols because they’re accurate & dependable. I’ve put a few hundred rounds through the Beretta Models M9 / 92 & it ran well.

I’ve put quite all of 5,000+ through the 96D & it shoots really well too. It has a long ass trigger pull but it’s surprisingly accurate. My only complaint is that carrying concealed this pistol is like trying to stuff a turkey leg in the front pocket of some tight-ass jeans.

I’ve never shot a CZ pistol but I do like the ergos on the few that I’ve handled. They seem to have a decent factory trigger.
 
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308pirate

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I’ve put quite all of 5,000+ through the 96D & it shoots really well too. It has a long ass trigger pull but it’s surprisingly accurate. My only complaint is that carrying concealed this pistol is like trying to stuff a turkey leg in the front pocket of some tight-ass jeans.
Langdon Tactical has some Centurion and Compact models...……….
 

rth1800

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It is not unusual for a mass produced pistol to not shoot on the sights. Just sandbag it and see where it shoots. Some are not worth fooling with. Too far off.
 

101stinfantry

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It's just the learning curve of switching to a different pistol. I shoot Glocks and Xd's quite well. I bought a new Beretta APX Combat and suddenly I suck again.
 
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davere

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There's several possible answers, based on your symptoms. I'll detail them here - happy to help more, if you need it. Assuming you're shooting reasonable groups, and they're off to the left...

1) you have poor trigger control - unfortunately, this is most peoples' answer, and it's usually made worse with a long DA trigger pull, too. This can manifest as shots pushed to the left, or low left - sometimes straight low (assuming a right handed shooter). Diagnosing this could look like shooting SA only off sandbags, or possibly having someone else pull the trigger for you while you hold the gun aligned on the target. Or, find someone else that you know has great trigger control and have them shoot the gun. Fixing it from there looks like a lot of dedicated work on smooth, straight rearward pressure on the trigger (especially at the point of trigger break). I used a dime balanced on top of my front sight as a way of working this... Note that, for you, pulling the trigger straight might actually feel like you're pushing it left or pulling it right...

2) the gun doesn't fit you - another common problem. If you're having to reach for the trigger and are on it with the tip end of the first joint, you may very well be pushing the gun left. There are some ways to fix this, depending on the gun - mostly, it requires modification of the gun (usually, this looks like things like changing grip panels, triggers, cutting on the frame, etc). Fighting gun fit is really a bitch - your best bet might be to get of the gun and get something else, if this is the root cause.

3) sights are off - if you shoot off bags with an SA pull, or have someone else pull the trigger in SA only, and are still grouping left, it might be your sights. Don't let having someone else shoot the gun and the results differing fool you too much - you have no idea how they're operating the pistol. It theoretically shouldn't matter, but it can, as your eye is still part of the sighting system.

3.1) you need new sights - most factory sights are complete ass, and sometimes they can be difficult to use because of that - but left/right using isn't the issue. it's usually vertical...

4) you're not using the sights correctly - this actually does happen, believe it or not. Doubt this is the case, but throwing it in there to be complete


If you're not shooting reasonable groups, all bets are off, and you could also have:

0.5) jerking the trigger or flinching

2.5) the gun is terrible and will never shoot a group - this was my M&P9 when I first got it from the factory... two barrels later, and it shoots quite well, grouping 2" at 25y with anything I feed it.
 

TheGerman

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It's primarily because of your grip. And that doesn't necessarily mean your grip sucks; it means it now sucks on the 'new' grip because of the difference in grip width, angle, whatever.

I notice this when shooting a G19x with the beavertail backstrap, which I have a perfect grip on with my palms able to push together nice and evenly while keeping the beavertail high and tight in the gap of my thumb and not having to 'force' myself to muscle it in any way. I can tell just by the grip coming together, if I'm going to be perfect on target before I even acquire the RMR dot.

Then I switch to a HK45C and the wider grip width and longer, flat grip sides completely change this. Makes me feel like I'm hanging onto the pistol instead of completely in control/in charge of it. While I'm decent with it, the Glock, because of the grip I have on it, feels like a stick in my hand that I could swing around and do whatever with whereas the HK requires me to pay attention to everything and I notice the loss of perfect control of it during recoil. It also doesn't help that the plastic grip totally sucks for getting any kind of real grip on it because of the lack of any good serrations or basically anything. Once your hand is sweaty its 10x worse with the HK.

Good test for this is to have the gun in its holster or down by your side. Grip it with your strong hand like you would on the draw, draw while focusing solely on grip and aim it at a known object (light switch, can on the counter, whatever) and without muscleing an adjustment, where is it pointing/where is its NPoA? Do that a few times and see if you either need to make an adjustment to something like the backstrap with/grip width, make an adjustment in your grip, or if that gun + your hand, just isn't going to work.
 

lht645

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Yea its frustrating, G-19 shoots POA/POI, M&P 45c, shoots POA/POI, both my M&P full size 9 & 45, low and to the right (I'm a lefty) That's why I think it's my grip, the full size M&P's kind of kick out at the bottom so I think it has an effect. in my grip, I even switched the slides on the 45's and got the same results with both slides/barrels on the full size lower.
 

davere

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Yea its frustrating, G-19 shoots POA/POI, M&P 45c, shoots POA/POI, both my M&P full size 9 & 45, low and to the right (I'm a lefty) That's why I think it's my grip, the full size M&P's kind of kick out at the bottom so I think it has an effect. in my grip, I even switched the slides on the 45's and got the same results with both slides/barrels on the full size lower.
Yeah, that boils back to a gun fit issue. Makes it hard to pull the trigger consistently straight to the rear without also disturbing the point of aim...
 

Jmccracken1214

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It’s amazing at how much better I’m shooting today on my third time out with this pistol compared to the first two times. I’ve got about 600 rounds through it and shooting much better today. I still catch myself flinching with this gun which was never an issue with my CZP 10. Here is a 15 round group at 10 yards today, shooting somewhat fast paced
 

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WATERWALKER

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@TheGerman

I notice this when shooting a G19x with the beavertail backstrap, which I have a perfect grip on with my palms able to push together nice and evenly while keeping the beavertail high and tight in the gap of my thumb and not having to 'force' myself to muscle it in any way. I can tell just by the grip coming together, if I'm going to be perfect on target before I even acquire the RMR dot.

From a right-handed shooter’s POV:

This is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to the “clam shell” or “nut cracker” grip. When you grip the pistol you want to grip it w/ your strong hand and get a high purchase. Once your support gand meets your strong hand the high purchase will lower the pistol’s center of gravity in your strong hand & prevent it from rocking or bucking. Your support hand meets the dominant hand & you’ll suck up all the excess space on the left side of the pistol’s grip. There should be no gaps or daylight in your grip; if you can see the pistol’s grip between your hands it is wrong.

A lot of people will describe hand pressure as 60/40, but I think I’m probably more in the 80/20 category. I’m not sure there is a set number. The 80/20 refers to the amount of pressure delivered by each hand, ie 80 left & 20 right. If it works for you, your groups will show it. If your groups don’t show you what you want to see, my advice is to keep working. Take a class, seek professional advice or remedial training. I hope this helps y’all that are struggling a bit.

I’ve attached two pics which will properly illustrate a clam shell or nut cracker grip. Both pics are from different angles so you can see there are no gaps or daylight in the grip.
 

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davere

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A lot of people will describe hand pressure as 60/40, but I think I’m probably more in the 80/20 category. I’m not sure there is a set number.
Yeah, there really isn't a set number. I have a set of drills I teach to students to arrive at the "right" grip pressure for them - but almost always, the end formula is the same. The dominant hand is sort of along for the ride - basically, just like your hand knows how hard to grip a hammer it's swinging, the dominant hand just needs to do it's thing (if you actively grip hard with the dominant hand, you absolutely will compromise your ability to control the trigger properly, and to actuate it at high speed). The support hand, on the other hand (pun absolutely intended) basically needs to grip as absolutely firmly as it can without inducing muscle tremors or fatigue. For most people, that's both way harder than they're gripping by default, and a lot more work than they're used to in shooting a handgun.

For most people, that grip level in the support hand ends up being somewhere between 80-90% of maximal grip strength.

In terms of how to apply the pressure, it helps to think about squeezing the gun with the support hand from side to side, rather than front to back, or whatever. This seems to help reduce inducing lateral movement in the gun with the support hand, and prevents them from slipping into a Weaver-esque "push/pull" situation, which both ruins recoil control and adds additional tension (and, consequently, muscle tremor) into the stance.

This is one of my biggest "sins" in handgun shooting - any time I haven't practiced in a while, my support side grip gets lazy, and I hit all over the place. As soon as I fix the grip, magically, things fall back in line...
 

308pirate

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I'd consider Ken Nelson's view when it comes to gripping a handgun. At least give his technique a fair shake.

Not for nothing but this technique was co developed by the late Ron Avery, a man with near superhuman shooting skills.




Note: wrist tension comes from forearm muscles. Look at the shooter's forearm in the bottom video at the 3:07 - 3:08 mark. Working on hand and forearm muscular strength will yield maximum grip control for the effort expended.
 
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WATERWALKER

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I'd consider Ken Nelson's view when it comes to gripping a handgun. At least give his technique a fair shake.

Not for nothing but this technique was co developed by the late Ron Avery, a man with near superhuman shooting skills.




Note: wrist tension comes from forearm muscles. Look at the shooter's forearm in the bottom video at the 3:07 - 3:08 mark. Working on hand and forearm muscular strength will yield maximum grip control for the effort expended.
Lots of good info in the video content posted above. Rob Avery has lots of solid info to pass for sure.

Glock started using the Ameriglow sights on their Gen 5 pistols & this is genius idea. There are a few reasons why I believe this to be so.

We’ll start w/ the fact that GLOCK pistols have a steep rake. The grip angle is far different from that of standard pistols, such as a 1911. If you try to shoot a Glock like anything else, you’ll start “heeling” & showing high groups. This can look like looking over top of your sights. This is often a result of not driving your wrists forward.

Glock has chosen to use the Ameriglow sights on Gen 5 pistols which are tall as fuck. This is a great idea because the Ameriglow sights are so tall. In order to level off your sights (w/ equidistant gaps on each side) you’ll be forced to drive the pistol forward.

Using a clam shell / nut cracker grip you’re going to limit the rocking / bucking / muzzle flip of the pistol. You can’t stop recoil from happening. None of us can, but we can manage it efficiently.

ETA: when extending your arms, do not lock out your elbows. Your hands will start to shake. Also, a little slack in your elbows will help you to A) not fatigue & shake B) absorb recoil far more efficiently. *This is coming from a guy who has tendinitis in his elbows.

Shooting a pistol well isn’t magic; apply the fundamentals & this stuff is easy.
 
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davere

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ETA: when extending your arms, do not lock out your elbows. Your hands will start to shake. Also, a little slack in your elbows will help you to A) not fatigue & shake B) absorb recoil far more efficiently. *This is coming from a guy who has tendinitis in his elbows.
It actually also limits your ability to apply muscular force in the grip, too (which might be part of why you're seeing your hands shake when you lock your elbows and then try to grip something).

Shooting a pistol well isn’t magic; apply the fundamentals & this stuff is easy.
Indeed...
 

308pirate

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I've read/heard the "don't lock your elbows" advice many times.

I can't shoot a pistol with bent elbows without losing lateral control of it (stringing shots left/right).

Dogma is fine if it works for you.
 

davere

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Dogma is fine if it works for you.
I've tried essentially every handgun shooting technique out there - and I've taught several hundred people how to shoot and use a handgun for a variety of purposes. That involves a process that arrives at them deciding empirically which arm position, grip pressure, etc, to use, and includes having them shoot with locked elbows, and a variety of arm positions vertically and extended/flexed (with body types ranging from petite 100# women, to portly 350+# men).

To date, I've not seen anyone that found that they had better control of the handgun with their elbows actually locked. That posture allows recoil energy from the handgun to be directly transmitted to the shoulder without the benefit of the musculature in the upper arms working as shock absorbers. In practice, that makes the shooting slower, and generally allows the gun to drive you backwards, pushing your shoulders back over your feet, amongst other issues.

A variety of other adjustments has made a difference for different people and body types, but locked elbows - so far - hasn't been one of them.

Being that "dogma" can be defined as "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds"... I'm not sure what you'd propose as "authoritative grounds", but I'm very comfortable making that assertion based on my experience as described above. I've talked with a number of trainers about arm position, too, and none of them have ever described a student using locked elbows to benefit over a different arm position. That's not exhaustive, and I'm not certain on their testing methods to arrive at that decision, but so far it matches my empirical experience on the range.

Your case would be the anomaly, based on my experience, so far.
 

308pirate

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I've tried essentially every handgun shooting technique out there - and I've taught several hundred people how to shoot and use a handgun for a variety of purposes. That involves a process that arrives at them deciding empirically which arm position, grip pressure, etc, to use, and includes having them shoot with locked elbows, and a variety of arm positions vertically and extended/flexed (with body types ranging from petite 100# women, to portly 350+# men).

To date, I've not seen anyone that found that they had better control of the handgun with their elbows actually locked. That posture allows recoil energy from the handgun to be directly transmitted to the shoulder without the benefit of the musculature in the upper arms working as shock absorbers. In practice, that makes the shooting slower, and generally allows the gun to drive you backwards, pushing your shoulders back over your feet, amongst other issues.
I define "locked elbows" as arms fully extended with no bend at the elbow. Just putting that out there to make sure we're communicating without misunderstanding.

I manage to win or place in the 90% percentile in almost every USPSA Production or IDPA Stock Service Pistol match I attend. I think my recoil control, splits, and ability to shoot while moving fluidly are pretty good, though I'm always looking for improvement.

I let the shot timer and results on target tell me which things work for me and which don't.
 

davere

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I define "locked elbows" as arms fully extended with no bend at the elbow. Just putting that out there to make sure we're communicating without misunderstanding.
Sure.

I manage to win or place in the 90% percentile in almost every USPSA Production or IDPA Stock Service Pistol match I attend. I think my recoil control, splits, and ability to shoot while moving fluidly are pretty good, though I'm always looking for improvement.
If it works, use it. I'm just saying, you'd be the only person I found that to be the case with. Well, and that I'm disagreeing about the term "dogma"... ha ha.

FWIW, I haven't shot a USPSA match in several years (since 2016... though will likely be returning soon-ish), but I generally win most matches I shoot up to Area, consistently placed top 5 at Area matches, and finished Top 16 at a couple Nationals. Not that that means anything in terms of absolute skill - or ability to instruct others - but I've been behind a pistol a bit.

I let the shot timer and results on target tell me which things work for me and which don't.
I wouldn't disagree with this.
 

1500varmint

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I think the "locked elbows" thing may be a matter of nuance.

I can A) extend my arm so that it's straight and strong with no bend in my elbow. I can then B) strain the shit out of my arm muscles and fully "lock" my elbow joint to the point where any additional pressure would pretty much cause it to hyper-extend.

When I look at good shooters they appear to do "A" above. There's no bend in the elbow but they're not straining the shit out of their muscles to keep their arms maxed out;


Are you both talking about the same thing?
 

308pirate

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I think the "locked elbows" thing may be a matter of nuance.

I can A) extend my arm so that it's straight and strong with no bend in my elbow. I can then B) strain the shit out of my arm muscles and fully "lock" my elbow joint to the point where any additional pressure would pretty much cause it to hyper-extend.

When I look at good shooters they appear to do "A" above. There's no bend in the elbow but they're not straining the shit out of their muscles to keep their arms maxed out;


Are you both talking about the same thing?
My arms look like those of the very first dude, the one in the first 15 seconds.
 
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davere

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Video can make it tough to judge exact arm position - because there’s two angles at play: in/out from the body (from locked to super bent), and up/down (internal/external rotation of the shoulder). Look at any video of Dave Sevigny shooting, and it looks like his left arm is locked out straight, but viewed from above, there’s noticeable bend.

“Locked” elbows means the joint is extended to the point where it (naturally) extends no further. for most folks, this is about a 180 degree angle. The only one in that video that looks close to that is the young lady, but her shoulders also look to be super externally rotated, which can enhance that look. I’m only looking at my phone, though (small screen).

Incidentally, unless someone has serious asymmetry in arm length or really messed up torso structure, it’s impossible to have both elbows locked with a correct grip on the gun.

This pic is my rough position. I generally have a little more bend at the elbow vs several folks in the video.

79794DE8-1E39-4C57-B4FC-21D215D7406D.jpeg
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
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Incidentally, unless someone has serious asymmetry in arm length or really messed up torso structure, it’s impossible to have both elbows locked with a correct grip on the gun.
We will, again, have to agree to disagree.
 

WATERWALKER

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Apr 19, 2014
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From an instructor’s point of view, if a student shoots really well on the the range (solid qual scores, practical application of skills during exercises, etc), I don’t mess w/ them too much.

I’ve had a few students over the years who’ve shot pistols w/ a revolver grip & still pulled off really good scores. I just leave them alone at that point.

I’m absolutely fine w/ leaving a person to do their own thing if it works for them. On the other hand, if students do their own thing & don't shoot well I’ll step in early & offer remedies based on what the target shows me.