SCAR17 vs KAC SR25 E2 CC (ACC)

sharfshutz762

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If you would like my experience and data with the KAC and Scar then I may oblige. As far as the revolution I have been involved with an extensive eval of it and know where even the materials are sourced so watch your little arfcom bullshit comment.
 
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sharfshutz762

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I meant revolution..
and yes its a piece of shit compared to SCAR and KAC.. especially the junk nitrided geen mountain barrels they use.
 

madppcs

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Can you provide proof? Im only reading opinion based comments from you. Dont take this the wrong way... But I dont know you, and your not really lending any actual content to this thread. For someone just to randomly jump in a thread and say (ABC rifle company is shit just because i think so) is reflective of AR15 forums.
 

MrDogtor

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If you wanted something more comparable to the Knights, look at the Scar 20 that has a heavier barrel and PRS style stock.
This still doesn't make sense to me, to be honest. Not purposely trying to be obstinate... But the SR25 is about 8lbs, the SCAR17 is about 8lbs (slightly lighter, though this weight difference could be made up for by swapping the SOPMOD stock to something lighter), and the SCAR20 is about 11lbs.
 
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sharfshutz762

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The SR25 EMC/ECC with fancy lightened barrel is tick over 9 pounds. the regular carbine is over 10 pounds.
 

Fenix Mike

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This still doesn't make sense to me, to be honest. Not purposely trying to be obstinate... But the SR25 is about 8lbs, the SCAR17 is about 8lbs (slightly lighter, though this weight difference could be made up for by swapping the SOPMOD stock to something lighter), and the SCAR20 is about 11lbs.
The Scar 20 is a precision style rifle, much like the SR25, where as the Scar 17 is not. If his goal was sub MOA accuracy, the Scar 17 isnt the best choice and would not really offer any comparison to the SR25, where as the Scar 20 was not meant as a battle rifle, it has more of the precision rifle roots in it.

Make sense?
 

sharfshutz762

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As far as SCAR eating optics, Its due to the large reciprcating mass of the internals thats closer to a machine gun op with a harsh shock profile. If the electronics wont hold up on SCAR then it wont hold up on machine gun either. A report from Crane also found fault with companies cutting corners and not properly shock proofing/ruggedizing electronics which happens during wartime and these issues have been resolved.
If your optic or accessories are NOT rated to MIL-STD 810G then its not advisable to use on this weapon.
A lot of optics may originate from the same place but not all are created equal.
 

Fenix Mike

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How is the accuracy with the SR25 with cheap M80 ball ammo?
While we aren't going out to 800+ with 145-150gr FMJBT, it's nice to be able to hammer away at anything inside 600 for less than half the cost of match grade ammo.
Honestly from personal experience, all M80 ball ammo is "different" with respects to accuracy and which gun likes it. I have to see if I can find my old paper target and chrono results, but I tested 7 or 8 different brands of M80 Ball and some of the stuff had a spread of 120 FPS and 4 MOA accuracy, while other stuff had a 40 FPS spread and 2 MOA accuracy. Then after changing rifles, the velocity really didnt change, but the accuracy would, so it was really tough to pick a single ammo that works on every platform.

The precision rifles I did the tests with did well at 750 yards, about 80% at 875, and Im pretty sure it was luck at 1100 if one hit, using the ammo for each rifle that it tested best with.

This is with my Scar SBR 13 inch and M80 Ball at 700m/750 yards. As you can see, it does pretty well considering its not a precision rifle and the ammo was 2-3 MOA at best. Imgur isnt being friendly right now, but im almost positive I have photos of the groups that day from the scar, it definitely was one of the worse ammos ive tested (federal red box M80)

Slow fire

Fast fire for fun
 
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Fenix Mike

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As far as SCAR eating optics, Its due to the large reciprcating mass of the internals thats closer to a machine gun op with a harsh shock profile. If the electronics wont hold up on SCAR then it wont hold up on machine gun either. A report from Crane also found fault with companies cutting corners and not properly shock proofing/ruggedizing electronics which happens during wartime and these issues have been resolved.
If your optic or accessories are NOT rated to MIL-STD 810G then its not advisable to use on this weapon.
A lot of optics may originate from the same place but not all are created equal.
Id like to read the article and see which optics specifically were tested, and in what conditions. Its not that I dont believe those testing it, but im just curious why maybe <5% of users have these problems, then the rest of the world doesnt.
 

sharfshutz762

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Its a reports not an article, and the testings involve optics and accesories related to what Socom issues or in consideration. Crane could care less what civvie hobbyist think or believe.
To give you some perspective I tested 3 LPVO from a company last year on a MK48. Each one of them complete came apart including an objective lens falling out, eyepiece falling out, and vario becoming non operational. Upon internal exam all three had extenesive damage to the erector tube from bouncing. We are not talking about thousands of rounds on each either.
 

Fenix Mike

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Its a reports not an article, and the testings involve optics and accesories related to what Socom issues or in consideration. Crane could care less what civvie hobbyist think or believe.
To give you some perspective I tested 3 LPVO from a company last year on a MK48. Each one of them complete came apart including an objective lens falling out, eyepiece falling out, and vario becoming non operational. Upon internal exam all three had extenesive damage to the erector tube from bouncing. We are not talking about thousands of rounds on each either.
Sounds like an optics issue then, not a firearm issue.
 

theLBC

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Its a reports not an article, and the testings involve optics and accesories related to what Socom issues or in consideration. Crane could care less what civvie hobbyist think or believe.
To give you some perspective I tested 3 LPVO from a company last year on a MK48. Each one of them complete came apart including an objective lens falling out, eyepiece falling out, and vario becoming non operational. Upon internal exam all three had extenesive damage to the erector tube from bouncing. We are not talking about thousands of rounds on each either.
my understanding is that the forward impulse of the heavy bolt carrier assembly that was/is a problem for optics (designed to handle the typical harsh backward recoil impulse).
It seems to me that the optics manufacturers are adjusting to this, with piston driven rifles being more commonly deployed by military (and owned by civilians) and they are making newer scopes now that are made to handle that forward impulse.
Still, if I was putting an optic on a Scar-H, I would choose optics that are proven, or at the very least has a bulletproof warranty.
 

Crang

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Honestly from personal experience, all M80 ball ammo is "different" with respects to accuracy and which gun likes it. I have to see if I can find my old paper target and chrono results, but I tested 7 or 8 different brands of M80 Ball and some of the stuff had a spread of 120 FPS and 4 MOA accuracy, while other stuff had a 40 FPS spread and 2 MOA accuracy. Then after changing rifles, the velocity really didnt change, but the accuracy would, so it was really tough to pick a single ammo that works on every platform.

The precision rifles I did the tests with did well at 750 yards, about 80% at 875, and Im pretty sure it was luck at 1100 if one hit, using the ammo for each rifle that it tested best with.

This is with my Scar SBR 13 inch and M80 Ball at 700m/750 yards. As you can see, it does pretty well considering its not a precision rifle and the ammo was 2-3 MOA at best. Imgur isnt being friendly right now, but im almost positive I have photos of the groups that day from the scar, it definitely was one of the worse ammos ive tested (federal red box M80)

Slow fire

Fast fire for fun
I should have mentioned while my SCAR has done worse than expected with the M80 ball I have tried, the surplus German berdan 148gr DAG ball ammo shoots about 1 MOA. Its my regular go to cheaper blasting ammo when I dont feel like handloading or picking up brass. Usually under $.50/round in 200 round battlepacks when it pops up.
 

theLBC

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I should have mentioned while my SCAR has done worse than expected with the M80 ball I have tried, the surplus German berdan 148gr DAG ball ammo shoots about 1 MOA. Its my regular go to cheaper blasting ammo when I dont feel like handloading or picking up brass. Usually under $.50/round in 200 round battlepacks when it pops up.
do you check the torque on your barrel?
while it may not be the case for you, this is a fairly common issue affecting accuracy, per the FN forums.
one owner wasn't getting good groups even with 168gr FGMM, but tightening the barrel attachment screws to spec solved that.
 

Crang

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do you check the torque on your barrel?
while it may not be the case for you, this is a fairly common issue affecting accuracy, per the FN forums.
one owner wasn't getting good groups even with 168gr FGMM, but tightening the barrel attachment screws to spec solved that.
Ive had the barrel on and off a number of times and it gets torqued with a good Seekonk torque wrench when I do. Its always been about the same. Shoots sub-MOA with handloads it likes and about 1 MOA with surplus DAG so I dont complain but its usually like 3.5" with the M80 I tried.
 

RyanScott

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The SCAR H has a peak recoil force 4x that of the SR25. Whether it’s a rifle or optics issue matters little if you can’t put the optics available to you on it.
 
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Tonsofguns

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Not sure why so many people are in denial about this, this seems like a simple case of scar owners getting butt hurt, since they are so heavily invested in an overpriced systems with many flaws.

Do you think it's some sort of conspiracy theory, where everyone is out to get the scar by bashing what it does to optics? Just go on the various forums, and you'll talk to a ton of people who have had their optics RIP on their scars. One of the guys on calguns had two optics break on his scar in a row within six months. One of those optics was an acog, and when he gave them a call, they said, you had it on a scar right? yep! But he's probably a plant spreading lies as well.

I still own a nib scar 16. I have no ambitions of ever shooting that thing. I'll probably end up selling it to a call of duty fanboy in the future. The good thing about that 16 is that it does not break optics ;)
 
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Fenix Mike

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Not sure why so many people are in denial about this, this seems like a simple case of scar owners getting butt hurt, since they are so heavily invested in an overpriced systems with many flaws.

Do you think it's some sort of conspiracy theory, where everyone is out to get the scar by bashing what it does to optics? Just go on the various forums, and you'll talk to a ton of people who have had their optics RIP on their scars. One of the guys on calguns had two optics break on his scar in a row within six months. One of those optics was an acog, and when he gave them a call, they said, you had it on a scar right? yep! But he's probably a plant spreading lies as well.

I still own a nib scar 16. I have no ambitions of ever shooting that thing. I'll probably end up selling it to a call of duty fanboy in the future. The good thing about that 16 is that it does not break optics ;)
We’re the butt hurt ones huh? That’s a denial rant if I’ve ever heard one...
 

Fenix Mike

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Nope. Got it from a guy in the SCAR program when he rotated back to 1st Group.
Sadly it’s tough to take anyone at their word these days due to personal bias against weapons. I love all firearms equally, and choose platforms based on my needs or wants. Unfortunately we have developed “gun cliques” on these forums where some like to bash a weapon solely for its cult following or popularity. I disliked glocks for a long time, mainly because I didn’t shoot them well, and preferred hk over them... then my current agency said I can carry any weapon I want, as long as it’s a Glock. Now it’s all I own... I can see many disliking the scar and drinking the anti scar coolaid, but I seldom see proof to any of the claims other than “I heard”.
 
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MrDogtor

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The SR25 EMC/ECC with fancy lightened barrel is tick over 9 pounds. the regular carbine is over 10 pounds.
The ACC/E2 CC is listed at 8.4 pounds on KAC's website. Seen it listed elsewhere as 8 pound 3 ounces. Either way, quite a bit lighter.

Have you considered the Robinson XCR-M?
I did! Mentioned in my OP briefly. The weight, reports on accuracy issues, QC and customer service issues make it less attractive.
 

Blackfoot 7

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Without addressing individual issues, you have Scar haters, and Scar lovers. Most of the internet just regurgitates fake news because it suits their individual needs. Ive run multiple different optics (all high end obviously) on my Scar 17 and yet to EVER have a failure of any sort. I had two other scars before it with the same outcome. Granted I changed my gas jets for optimum operation and have a 13 inch barrel on mine, as well as always run suppressed, but the thing is a sewing machine, its accurate, its light, easy to shoot, and I rarely clean it because im lazy. Ive honestly probably punched the bore twice since owning it, and toss lube on the carrier about once a year just to do so.
Have some people legitimately had issues with a Scar? Sure... I didnt diagnose their weapons and I dont know their shooting conditions, but me personally, ive shot mine in 30 degree weather, 120 degree weather, rapid fired through mags, slow fired through mags, and its just the most dependable weapon ive fired.

As far as the Scar vs Knights, as others have said, two different worlds. I have a LMT 20 inch MWS for punching steel at 1000+ or making tight little groups, a 16 inch DD for the ability to hit 1000, making average groups, and something a bit heavier with a light attached for a "battle rifle" role, then my SBR Scar 17 that fits in my gym bag, its a couple lbs lighter than the others, really can work any role due to the smaller size and larger caliber with reduced recoil over an AR, etc.

If you wanted something more comparable to the Knights, look at the Scar 20 that has a heavier barrel and PRS style stock. I havent personally shot one just because I didnt have any interest in them, but I have friends who run them and like them. My LMT is one of my favorite rifles, but its just a beast compared to the Scar, so unless im going to shoot far for sure and prone out, I prefer the Scar. Currently running a Mark 6 1-6 with the CMR762 and its a blast to shoot out to 750 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger, or I take my time at 875, which in my opinion, is really the limit due to velocity in a 13 inch barrel. If you keep the 16 inch its fine to 1000 all day long and likes 168 or 175 pills, the only downside is if you hang a can off it and fire fast, the thin profile barrel can start to string shots after a bit. No issue on the 13 :)
Indeed. My 6.5CM MWS will absolutely shoot lights out. As an added bonus you can easily swap out a 13" CL on an (SBR'd) MWS. ;) Win.



 

Shellbeak

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I used to have an Sr25 ECC and currently own 2 Scar 17s. I really liked my ECC. The quality was beyond anything I have seen in an AR platform. It was sub MOA accurate with FGMM or similar premium ammo. I think they were designed to run m80 ball ammo, and I have heard reports of them being finicky with certain ammo, most cheap stuff, although I personally never had an issue.
 

RyanScott

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Sadly it’s tough to take anyone at their word these days due to personal bias against weapons. I love all firearms equally, and choose platforms based on my needs or wants. Unfortunately we have developed “gun cliques” on these forums where some like to bash a weapon solely for its cult following or popularity. I disliked glocks for a long time, mainly because I didn’t shoot them well, and preferred hk over them... then my current agency said I can carry any weapon I want, as long as it’s a Glock. Now it’s all I own... I can see many disliking the scar and drinking the anti scar coolaid, but I seldom see proof to any of the claims other than “I heard”.
My location, choice in recreational activities and sometimes my work have given me a level of contact with people involved in SOF weapon testing, selection and use that is more than typical of hobby shooters. The reports about the SCAR have been mostly negative from a maintenance/reliability perspective including the optics issue. Understand though that they aren’t printing documents and slipping them to me in the parking lot.
 
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Fenix Mike

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My location, choice in recreational activities and sometimes my work have given me a level of contact with people involved in SOF weapon testing, selection and use that is more than typical of hobby shooters. The reports about the SCAR have been mostly negative from a maintenance/reliability perspective including the optics issue. Understand though that they aren’t printing documents and slipping them to me in the parking lot.
I hear that a lot on these forums... amazing how many elite insiders there are! I honestly dont see many positive reviews of anything out of the military, and the majority of the time, its their own faults. The feds love them for interdiction and large caliber defense/offense, but I guess were a different animal.
 
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RyanScott

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Again, I’m not an elite insider I’m just someone who works on and near a base with a heavy SOF presence, and sometimes on or in their facilities.
 

theLBC

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I hear that a lot on these forums... amazing how many elite insiders there are! I honestly dont see many positive reviews of anything out of the military, and the majority of the time, its their own faults. The feds love them for interdiction and large caliber defense/offense, but I guess were a different animal.
there were admittedly some issues with the first Scar heavies deployed.
early reports of problems seems to stem from running them suppressed on full auto, with the gas not adjusted.
sort of funny the bash on Scars video that most people point to has a couple guys saying they could demonstrate the problem, and then they failed to demonstrate anything.

I tend to believe the guys at battlefield vegas when they claim the Scar platform is one of the most reliable they have, with 100s of thousands of rounds through their Scars. i have never had any issues although i only have a fraction of that number of rounds sent downrange.
 

RyanScott

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There were some broken bolts on the L at first, probably a metallurgy thing. The gas block can post sparks. Someone wanted to reduce ROF and ported the blast chamber on the AAC cans, which is apparently part of the reason FN started making cans. The common issue is the plastic lowers and stocks break. I’ve been to Battlefield Vegas, it’s a fun place but you’re not going to find issues with stocks there. One of my contacts told me that first group was breaking guns and couldn’t get parts but the number of new guns being fielded kept the inventory of functioning guns at a steady level.
 
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MrDogtor

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I used to have an Sr25 ECC and currently own 2 Scar 17s. I really liked my ECC. The quality was beyond anything I have seen in an AR platform. It was sub MOA accurate with FGMM or similar premium ammo. I think they were designed to run m80 ball ammo, and I have heard reports of them being finicky with certain ammo, most cheap stuff, although I personally never had an issue.
What made you sell it?

I tend to believe the guys at battlefield vegas when they claim the Scar platform is one of the most reliable they have, with 100s of thousands of rounds through their Scars. i have never had any issues although i only have a fraction of that number of rounds sent downrange.
I do as well. However that track record doesn't really say anything about how the SCAR treats optics or what happens when you drop it.
 

Blackfoot 7

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Is that a factory FDE SR25 or did you Ceracoat it when you got it? Can Knights rifles be ordered with a finish other than black?
My SR25 has a factory Cerekote finish. No, you can't order it this way from KAC or request factory Cerekoting, only available in black. However, occasionally KAC will do a limited release of some contract overrun guns, some of which might be factory coated.
 

theLBC

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nice thing about the Scar 17S is you can go from stock barrel to 20" for more precision or down to 11" for CQC, in about 5 minutes.
now that you can get barrels in 6.5 CM, you aren't tied down to .308 and you don't have to take crap from caliber snobs.

go from a 6.5 Creedmore long range target or hunting platform shooting hand loads...
to an M80 chewing CQC or battle rifle for zombie killing in 5 minutes!
 

RyanScott

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With an SR-25 caliber changes take 20 seconds and for roughly twice the price. But as a bonus you also get a new bolt and you can mount dedicated optics.
 

AEROMechanic

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My SR25 has a factory Cerekote finish. No, you can't order it this way from KAC or request factory Cerekoting, only available in black. However, occasionally KAC will do a limited release of some contract overrun guns, some of which might be factory coated.
Thanks fro the reply but that certainly sucks. So I'd have to buy the rifle, send it to a Ceracoat shop for disassembly and ceracoating then reassembled.

Boo
 

RyanScott

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It gets worse. You can’t send it just anywhere, because it takes special tools to take a KAC rifle apart.
 

Blackfoot 7

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nice thing about the Scar 17S is you can go from stock barrel to 20" for more precision or down to 11" for CQC, in about 5 minutes.
now that you can get barrels in 6.5 CM, you aren't tied down to .308 and you don't have to take crap from caliber snobs.

go from a 6.5 Creedmore long range target or hunting platform shooting hand loads...
to an M80 chewing CQC or battle rifle for zombie killing in 5 minutes!
I wouldn't rely on that without confirming zero when barrel swapping. My MWS has that capability, but if I'm swapping barrels then confirming zero with the current or replacement optic would be my recommendation.

Thanks fro the reply but that certainly sucks. So I'd have to buy the rifle, send it to a Ceracoat shop for disassembly and ceracoating then reassembled.

Boo
True. There are good reputable KAC armorers out there that do excellent work (NS Defense for example).

It gets worse. You can’t send it just anywhere, because it takes special tools to take a KAC rifle apart.
True. You can't just send it anywhere to get done. It should be a KAC certified armorer. One reason I will never sell my ACC is because it's not common to be able own an SR25 with a factory paint job (I mean besides the fact that it's just a flat-out badass rifle). However, if that's not an option, there are reputable guys out there that can get it done if you're willing to go through a third party.
 
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AEROMechanic

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I wouldn't rely on that without confirming zero when barrel swapping. My MWS has that capability, but if I'm swapping barrels then confirming zero with the current or replacement optic would be my recommendation.



True. There are good reputable KAC armorers out there that do excellent work (NS Defense for example).
Hey thanks, I'll look them up!
 
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MrDogtor

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nice thing about the Scar 17S is you can go from stock barrel to 20" for more precision or down to 11" for CQC, in about 5 minutes.
now that you can get barrels in 6.5 CM, you aren't tied down to .308 and you don't have to take crap from caliber snobs.
Quick swap barrels have never been interesting to me because it would also require an optic swap or re-zero. I much prefer swappable AR uppers, but I probably will not be spending another $3k+ for a second SR25 upper. At that point I'd rather have a SCAR and an SR25, which more and more is what I think I'll do.
 

RaymondPembrose

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SCAR Heavies are cool and lightweight for what they are, but the recoil impulse is sharp and you're paying for the coolness more than anything else. As others have already said the SCAR is a battle rifle and the KAC is a DMR/sniper rifle. In my eyes, the KAC is a more capable platform at longer ranges that can perform as well or close at closer ranges to a SCAR, and it won't eat optics.

13" SCAR's are dumb and not what you want for an 800m gun. It will throw flyers. 16" gas gun is where its at.
 

RaymondPembrose

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I can see you’ve never shot one, or you’re just not capable at that distance. People likely don’t buy a 13 inch anything for 800m, but it is definitely capable of it.
The one I used threw flyers.... Maybe they're not all like that. I can only speak from personal experience, but going that short on a .308 is questionable to begin with.
 

Fenix Mike

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The one I used threw flyers.... Maybe they're not all like that. I can only speak from personal experience, but going that short on a .308 is questionable to begin with.
Short barrels increase accuracy. Where you tend to lose is velocity, and the ability to get heavier pills to their target before going subsonic. I have no issues at 700-800m (750 to 875 yards) with my 13 inch scar, but you’re correct in that someone should not purchase the gun solely for long distance. It’s my “it can do everything” gun that fits in a backpack, light weight, and fun to shoot.
 
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