Russia offers Turkey Fighters

pmclaine

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Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

The shit they are pulling with the Kurds sucks but its probably only a matter of time before the communists Kurds start turning on us anyway - guess we deserve it we turn a blind eye after every occasion they have been useful to us.

Come to think of it why is there a NATO anyway?

Let Europe pay for its own defense.
 

pmclaine

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I thought the plane deal was lost on account Turkey was buying Russian Anti Air defenses.

Makes sense you get our stuff - air and anti air - or you get nothing.

If they have the SS 400 and the F35 what a nice test program to learn about the weaknesses of our newest fighter.

Are those new fighters still causing pilots to black out by the way?
 

THEIS

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Hi,

Yea the anti air defense is the big picture in regards to Turkey and the F35 component manufacturing in return for full built planes.

What makes no sense at all is that Saudi has exact same anti air defense yet by 2025 the F35 is set to be manufactured in Abu Dhabi under a Joint Venture project...As IF Saudi and UAE do not function dependent on the other lol.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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pmclaine

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Hi,

Yea the anti air defense is the big picture in regards to Turkey and the F35 component manufacturing in return for full built planes.

What makes no sense at all is that Saudi has exact same anti air defense yet by 2025 the F35 is set to be manufactured in Abu Dhabi under a Joint Venture project...As IF Saudi and UAE do not function dependent on the other lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

All a matter of appearances....nothing to do with reality.

Plausible deniability and the big bucks needing to be fed to the MIC......

Present company accepted of course.

Guessing also we want something from Turkey vis a vis the Iran problem (which isnt a problem).
 

W54/XM-388

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Assuming Turkey had previously been able to buy all the American made planes an anti aircraft missiles they wanted as part of NATO, why would they want to go with Russian stuff?

While I'm sure the Russian stuff is good, I don't think there is any instance where Russian stuff went up against equivalent American stuff and the outcome was anything other than the American stuff winning without even hardly trying?
 

pmclaine

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Assuming Turkey had previously been able to buy all the American made planes an anti aircraft missiles they wanted as part of NATO, why would they want to go with Russian stuff?

While I'm sure the Russian stuff is good, I don't think there is any instance where Russian stuff went up against equivalent American stuff and the outcome was anything other than the American stuff winning without even hardly trying?
"Quantity has a Quality all its own"

I flew on an Aeroflot jet circa 1988. Only flight Ive ever been on that had flies flying about the cabin. Smelled like curdled yogurt and old fruit also - an aroma that somehow was emitted in just about every public Soviet space.

Anyway that Aeroflot jet was pretty spartan but that mother fucker landed on a snow covered field in a violently rough manner that would have snapped the landing gear off a comparable western jet.

Not interested in finding out how our shit would do against a swarm of lesser enemy stuff.

As it is if the war started tomorrow Russia would beat us on morale alone.

Our military would be too busy excising the words "Infantryman", "America", and "American" from the lexicon, not to mention changing the "Dont Tread on Me" first Naval Jacks to Rainbow flags.
 

W54/XM-388

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As it is if the war started tomorrow Russia would beat us on morale alone.

Our military would be too busy excising the words "Infantryman", "America", and "American" from the lexicon, not to mention changing the "Dont Tread on Me" first Naval Jacks to Rainbow flags.
That is a leadership problem Not an equipment problem.

This would be a good thing for @THEIS to weigh in on since that's his area of expertise.
I guess the question then for @THEIS would be:

If we actually went to a hot shooting war with Russia be it on land, sea, air or more likely all combined.
Assuming we are using our latest stuff, they are using their latest stuff
Assuming nobody wants to go nuclear
Assuming both sides tell the military to go balls to the walls with no holding back and all (non nuclear options) are on the table at will.

My assumption is that the Russian side would find themselves loosing equipment and personnel at an astonishing rate compared to much lower losses from the American side?

I also assume that both sides going Nuclear would also have similar outcome just with more devastation?
 

BoilerUP

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Flanker-E is an extremely capable aircraft.

While I'd like to think a Super Hornet or -15C/E would prevail in a 1v1 fight on pilot training/competency/experience alone, the capabilities of hardware itself are absolutely 'peer' to American Gen4+ fighters.
 

pmclaine

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That is a leadership problem Not an equipment problem.

This would be a good thing for @THEIS to weigh in on since that's his area of expertise.
I guess the question then for @THEIS would be:

If we actually went to a hot shooting war with Russia be it on land, sea, air or more likely all combined.
Assuming we are using our latest stuff, they are using their latest stuff
Assuming nobody wants to go nuclear
Assuming both sides tell the military to go balls to the walls with no holding back and all (non nuclear options) are on the table at will.

My assumption is that the Russian side would find themselves loosing equipment and personnel at an astonishing rate compared to much lower losses from the American side?

I also assume that both sides going Nuclear would also have similar outcome just with more devastation?

I think we would decimate their gear that is offshore from their borders.

The problem becomes what do you do when they are secure within their borders.

Nothing makes Russia stronger than an external enemy and an existential threat.
 

MTN

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Hi,

Yea the anti air defense is the big picture in regards to Turkey and the F35 component manufacturing in return for full built planes.

What makes no sense at all is that Saudi has exact same anti air defense yet by 2025 the F35 is set to be manufactured in Abu Dhabi under a Joint Venture project...As IF Saudi and UAE do not function dependent on the other lol.

Sincerely,
Theis
How is it that the items we rely on for national security are sourced and/or sold outside of the country?

I get the likely explanations given, cost savings, need to spread development costs across multiple nations etc..

But some things should probably be considered priceless. We clamor to calls of america first then accept the excuses given that sell us out and create vulnerabilities. Dumb, idiotic even.
 

pmclaine

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How is it that the items we rely on for national security are sourced and/or sold outside of the country?

I get the likely explanations given, cost savings, need to spread development costs across multiple nations etc..

But some things should probably be considered priceless. We clamor to calls of america first then accept the excuses given that sell us out and create vulnerabilities. Dumb, idiotic even.
Agreed.

I just hope the export models all have an onboard "kill switch" we can activate.......it will work just like the spy chips China is including in the hardware we are buying from them.
 
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MTN

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I said it a couple years ago I think.

Russia and Turkey are going to be the best of buds. Russia needs to secure that water way at all costs.

Russia and the islamics will eventually come at us in formation via Alaska and quite handily be defeated for us.
 

pmclaine

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I said it a couple years ago I think.

Russia and Turkey are going to be the best of buds. Russia needs to secure that water way at all costs.

Russia and the islamics will eventually come at us in formation via Alaska and quite handily be defeated for us.

We could have avoided a lot of the Syria shit by just telling Russia the ports would be open for their use....ditto Crimea.

We wont be missing anything watching the Turks packing AKs.....its almost ordained by nature.

Just gots to make sure Turks stay in their little Empire......keep out of Cyprus and Greece.
 

MarinePMI

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The F-35 is fairly old tech, just saying.

As to pilots blacking out, that was the F-22.

The Kurds aren't communist. They're mostly still tribal in nature.

And Turkey is a country waiting for a civil war. The disparity between the cities and the rural areas will be it's undoing (much as we see today in our own country, and China sees in theirs).
 

pmclaine

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The F-35 is fairly old tech, just saying.

As to pilots blacking out, that was the F-22.

The Kurds aren't communist. They're mostly still tribal in nature.

And Turkey is a country waiting for a civil war. The disparity between the cities and the rural areas will be it's undoing (much as we see today in our own country, and China sees in theirs).

Thank you.

PKK may be one of those instances when Communism works for a limited, isolated, population struggling for its existence.

Nothing wrong with Communism as long as it is an early stage of development on the way to becoming capitalist. Certainly evil when a capitalist entity regresses to communist.

Only fear of Turkey is that people in distress "look" for something to ease their nerves.

I really would hate to see religion in this case fill that void. Erdogan seems to want to tap into that and change Turkey from the secular entity it is to something bound by religion in order to stabilize his power.

China will struggle as it builds a middle class.

Strange our country is trying to destroy the middle class in order to strengthen the elite. A small block of "chosen" to think for a large base of "dependants".

China on the other hand, as long as they prosper, will build a new strata of "independents" to question the status quo.

China doing well is not all bad....only when its at our expense.

I dont want to trade places with them.
 

MarinePMI

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I suppose, from a geopolitical perspective, my point is that China, Turkey and the US have the same issue. The cities are driving policies, and politicians are striving to play both sides (identity politics). The kicker will be how it gets resolved. The US is the only country where I see that being resolved (relatively) bloodlessly. The others (to include Russia) will tear themselves apart. TBH, we're not too distant from that possibility as well; just less likely due to our Constitution and the threat 2nd Amendment plays against any overly oppressive policies.

And the PKK are only "communist" in the lowest sense...tribal really does equate to "communal" more than "communist".
 
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Greg Langelius *

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Turkey provides:

A client state for the Russians who can use its weapons in an environment where it can be tested in detail against American weapons systems already in the Turkish inventory. Maybe now we'll get to see if US Weapons in foreign ally hands have built in Trojan horses.

A formerly useful American strategic force projection location at/near Russia's Border.

In the event of a Turkish civil war, Turkey easily becomes another Ukraine, annexed and dominated by Russia, and the NATO/OTAN facilities and informational assets become open books for Russian review. NATO/OTAN needs to move out and sterilize its facilities ASAP; Turkey is a fifth column nation now.

Greg
 
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pmclaine

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I suppose, from a geopolitical perspective, my point is that China, Turkey and the US have the same issue. The cities are driving policies, and politicians are striving to play both sides (identity politics). The kicker will be how it gets resolved. The US is the only country where I see that being resolved (relatively) bloodlessly. The others (to include Russia) will tear themselves apart. TBH, we're not too distant form that possibility as well; just less likely due to our Constitution and the threat 2nd Amendment plays against any overly oppressive policies.

And the PKK are only "communist" in the lowest sense...tribal really does equate to "communal" more than "communist".

The Mayflower Compact was Communism in its benign form. "Communal" is necessary when you live in the "wilderness" surrounded by enemies.

Russia moved from the left side of the political spectrum, communism, to the right, national socialism. One reason why I think the political spectrum is a circle not a line with a left and right.

So now Russia has a leadership that appoints or allows certain monopolies and strong men to exist and prosper as long as they go along with the central plan. How long will the population allow that?

China same thing. Their surveillance and control of the population is going to be a tough thing to overcome. I thing Tienanmen Square really shook the top of the commie leadership.

If the US becomes a mess it will be because the political class has determined they want it.
 

MarinePMI

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If the US becomes a mess it will be because the political class has determined they want it.
Or the general population has decided they have had enough. The issue is, with the speed of communications these days, that it'll be a two front war. One internal, and the other external, keeping the international wolves off our necks until things can be stabilized. A very tricky juggling act that I'm sure most do not want to have to contend with.
 

10ring'r

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Depends on where you go. Some of it is very upscale and modern (Antalya and Istanbul/Constantinople for example). Other areas...not so much...
Incirlik was the only spot I got to see, was on "stand-by" on the A/C I was crewing. I remember before we landed, we were told by the AC, that any item that we valued, we had to take off our person and hide it in the cargo compartment (C-141A), behind the sound proofing panels of the A/C. This included, our wallets (we kept only our Mil. I.D.'s on us), survival knife(s), patches, etc., if they (the Turks) saw something while they were on-board, they could actually take it. So, yes, we traded stuff, but stuff we didn't want to give up, we hid. It wasn't terrible, but I could have flown to better locals. Mac
 

THEIS

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Hi,

Here is my opinion in regards to equipment vs equipment..

Very first thing that comes to mind is that the USA is not ready to see the death toll numbers that would incur from a USA vs Russia conflict. As a whole the USA is war worn and quiet frankly not willing to see the death toll numbers of say Normandy invasion +.

Second thing that comes to mind is that when was the last time the USA has went "All Out" during a conflict? You can have best equipment in the world but if handicapped by Political figures determined to undermine the others...well the equipment is only as strong as the weakest politician.

I just do not see such scenario as anyone wanting to come to fruition.......

But back to pure equipment vs pure equipment....Russian equipment is rather up to standards compared to USA but utilization/training is lacking in some fronts (Not all though).

One rarely spoken problem in regards to superiority of USA equipment is that we as a whole cannot keep shit secret lol...We display our next generation defense equipment at International exhibitions, perform demonstrations during said International exhibitions, seminars/conferences on whats coming next for said equipment, etc etc etc.

Guess how many USA reps were at the Russian Army 2019 expo a few weeks ago getting demonstrations, seminars, conferences, etc on Russia advanced defense equipment??
Answer....not near enough.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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TacticalDillhole

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Hi,

Here is my opinion in regards to equipment vs equipment..

Very first thing that comes to mind is that the USA is not ready to see the death toll numbers that would incur from a USA vs Russia conflict. As a whole the USA is war worn and quiet frankly not willing to see the death toll numbers of say Normandy invasion +.

Second thing that comes to mind is that when was the last time the USA has went "All Out" during a conflict? You can have best equipment in the world but if handicapped by Political figures determined to undermine the others...well the equipment is only as strong as the weakest politician.

I just do not see such scenario as anyone wanting to come to fruition.......

But back to pure equipment vs pure equipment....Russian equipment is rather up to standards compared to USA but utilization/training is lacking in some fronts (Not all though).

One rarely spoken problem in regards to superiority of USA equipment is that we as a whole cannot keep shit secret lol...We display our next generation defense equipment at International exhibitions, perform demonstrations during said International exhibitions, seminars/conferences on whats coming next for said equipment, etc etc etc.

Guess how many USA reps were at the Russian Army 2019 expo a few weeks ago getting demonstrations, seminars, conferences, etc on Russia advanced defense equipment??
Answer....not near enough.

Sincerely,
Theis
I agree on most of this, especially the numbers part. I really wish we would stop displaying our toys to the world. We need to stop politicizing our defense and keep secrets secret.
 

Blue Sky Country

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I suppose, from a geopolitical perspective, my point is that China, Turkey and the US have the same issue. The cities are driving policies, and politicians are striving to play both sides (identity politics). The kicker will be how it gets resolved. The US is the only country where I see that being resolved (relatively) bloodlessly. The others (to include Russia) will tear themselves apart. TBH, we're not too distant from that possibility as well; just less likely due to our Constitution and the threat 2nd Amendment plays against any overly oppressive policies.

And the PKK are only "communist" in the lowest sense...tribal really does equate to "communal" more than "communist".

----------
And the PKK are only "communist" in the lowest sense...tribal really does equate to "communal" more than "communist".
----------


The Knights Templar order, one of the most powerful military and corporate guilds of medieval Europe, were communal in their operations. Inductees were not even allowed to own land or property and they had to "grant" all of their holdings to the commandery in which they belonged to. But in return for this sacrifice, their members answer to no one except the Pope himself, and of course, the Templar grand master. Not kings or other noblemen. The Order was not "socialist" by any means, despite that particular code of it's membership. They paved the way directly to modern business and trade, as well as banks, checks and loans.
 
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Crewdog135

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Where Russia has the advantage is electronic warfare. I lived in that world until 5 years ago. They have heavily invested in it, us much less so. Comms, data, all get shut down in a real conflict with them. And our senior military “leaders” are damn near useless in that environment. I’ve seen them order a stop to close air support because they couldn’t watch the drone feed. It was sickening.
 
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Currycure

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If the Turks go ahead with this, it will proof them untruest worthy and traitors
 

SilentStalkr

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That is a leadership problem Not an equipment problem.

This would be a good thing for @THEIS to weigh in on since that's his area of expertise.
I guess the question then for @THEIS would be:

If we actually went to a hot shooting war with Russia be it on land, sea, air or more likely all combined.
Assuming we are using our latest stuff, they are using their latest stuff
Assuming nobody wants to go nuclear
Assuming both sides tell the military to go balls to the walls with no holding back and all (non nuclear options) are on the table at will.

My assumption is that the Russian side would find themselves loosing equipment and personnel at an astonishing rate compared to much lower losses from the American side?

I also assume that both sides going Nuclear would also have similar outcome just with more devastation?
If it came to no holds barred gloves off conflict, we would decimate Russia. With that said, they have been spending pretty heavily on modernizing their equip. Like Theis said, it’s a lack of training and implementation that they would suffer from. But, their drive may help overcome that hiccup. And also like Theis said, we aren’t ready or willing to test those waters because we are tired of war and don’t really have any intention of stomaching the loss of hordes of people. Now, there are certain situations where Russia could cripple us and turn the tide, which I won’t discuss here, but you get the idea.

Or the general population has decided they have had enough. The issue is, with the speed of communications these days, that it'll be a two front war. One internal, and the other external, keeping the international wolves off our necks until things can be stabilized. A very tricky juggling act that I'm sure most do not want to have to contend with.
Exactly. And, this is no doubt something any of our enemies would use to their advantage if any conflict ever broke out.

I'll say it again. The F-35 is fairly old tech. That should say enough.
This. Usually, by the time any of our tech goes on sale to another country, we are already a couple generations jump ahead. Some people in the upper echelons aren’t that stupid. So once stuff becomes dated enough for us there is no sense in not making some money off of it by selling it to other countries.
 
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ArmyJerry

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Our AF as full of fagboys as it is would decimate any " swarm",,, if you look at numbers, Our AF could take on the whole dam world x2 and dominate in a few days.

Even without that massive waste off fucking money POS F35

Id kill Russians sooner than I would lay waste to DC. Its a closer call today but still.

"Quantity has a Quality all its own"

Anyway that Aeroflot jet was pretty spartan but that mother fucker landed on a snow covered field in a violently rough manner that would have snapped the landing gear off a comparable western jet.
Not interested in finding out how our shit would do against a swarm of lesser enemy stuff.

As it is if the war started tomorrow Russia would beat us on morale alone.

Our military would be too busy excising the words "Infantryman", "America", and "American" from the lexicon, not to mention changing the "Dont Tread on Me" first Naval Jacks to Rainbow flags.
 

pmclaine

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Our AF as full of fagboys as it is would decimate any " swarm",,, if you look at numbers, Our AF could take on the whole dam world x2 and dominate in a few days.

Even without that massive waste off fucking money POS F35

Id kill Russians sooner than I would lay waste to DC. Its a closer call today but still.

Supposedly the F35 is killing multiple enemies simultaneously before "their" radar is able to pick it up.

I hope that is so.
 

ArmyJerry

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Even without the F35 the AF would dominate in a few days. Rememebr their mission is to keep planes off the our ground forces, the second mission which I dont think they should have is nuke missiles, big ones not the little navy stuff.

Actually I dont think the AF should be a separate service, but aside from CAS they are very capable.

The US Armys AD is more capable than the AF at any of this shit and could stop our own AF cold.
 

pmclaine

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Rememebr their mission is to keep planes off the our ground forces,
Does the Air Force realize this?

Not as sexy as air to air combat or obliterating cities.

Getting them to CAS has always been an unglamorous route to a career.

Guys in SPADs supposedly were masterful at it in Vietnam bit they were laughed at for flying a prop.

USMC knows the only reason they are given the fast plane and wings is to support the grunts. Anything they kill in the air on the way is icing on the cake.
 

W54/XM-388

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Id kill Russians sooner than I would lay waste to DC. Its a closer call today but still.
Perhaps you could get your ultimate fantasy and the Russians could lay waste to DC and the whole like part of the country around that eastern seaboard and then you could get some good revenge by killing off Russians to your heart's content?
 

Palmetto-Pride

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I really wish we would stop displaying our toys to the world. We need to stop politicizing our defense and keep secrets secret.
I would hope that we only display what we want the world to see and the good shit is still kept behind the curtain. You know pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and all that jazz.......
 

sharac

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This discussions sound like a retirement home discussion - mostly those on the way out keeping spirits up (with knowledge of past era) while waiting in line for express to pearly gates. Reality unfortunately for you is rather bleak in this "we'll kill Russians soon" most likely your generation with simply die off and whole 1776 affair will be rephrased into new age LGBT speak and at some point your country will either implode or cause world wide nuclear Armageddon as your "elites" have gone completely mad and actually think they can "pacify and convert" entire world to their image of New man.

Your military can't even fuckup some ragheads effectively let alone big nations and it has nothing to do with politicians setting up bullshit ROE its simply the fact of life once great has become mediocre at best. As for Normandy+ casualties i'd suggest you call to Berlin and ask them for their statistics in the East you just might find that Normandy was a minor skirmish compared to eastern clusterfuck.