PVA Status Updates: Hancock Rifle & NUCLEUS Barreled Action

Oct 4, 2012
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I didn't get an email in my spam Folder but I have a receipt so I know they've got my email correct. I'll follow up with that.

Thanks again for posting that email.

I think the Nucleus BA orders are being treated with the same priority as the JHR. It makes sense that PVA made an initial purchase of actions for only JHRs and then each BA purchase was behind that initial action order for the JHR. The JHR is a unique product being brought to market separate from a Nucleus BA. What I understand from that email is that once ARC meets that initial action order to cover a set number of JHRs then all orders beyond that (JHR or BA) are solely based on when they were ordered and no longer separated. But, maybe I'm wrong.

The other way to do things would have been to not make an initial order of actions and as each JHR or BA was preordered then PVA would place an order for that action with ARC. I think that would have slowed things down considerably for those purchasing a JHR though it would have a negligible impact on those purchasing a BA.

or

PVA could have made a much larger order of actions to accommodate the both the JHR and BA up front. That however would take a lot more cash on their part and it would have been a risky venture.
 
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Feb 16, 2017
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The BA buyers are not being treated in the same manner as the JHR buyers. Per the update PVA has 80 actions sitting ready and waiting for engraving at ARC, for JHR buyers. The BA buyers have to wait until their action comes up in production sequence with ARC based on the order date. My order date for my BA I know would fall in with the 1st batch of JHR production, and there are actions sitting and waiting, but I will not be allocated one of these already produced actions. I'll live, but I think my deposit is just as legit as a JHR buyer. One of the reasons for going with PVA was that I knew they had an initial order in and would get the first batch of actions. It's really annoying when they could be completing orders for people they have the parts on hand to finish.
 

j741

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One of the reasons for going with PVA was that I knew they had an initial order in and would get the first batch of actions.
That was my apparent misunderstanding as well. I thought buying a barreled action through PVA would put me in a spot in terms of the waiting list. I'm now understanding that my impression was wrong. That's on me and I'm not blaming anyone for for it. Who knows, maybe this will save me money :)

My 6.5CM TAC A1, which I bought only when I realized the Nucleus wait time would be 1/2 year+ from my Feb order date, is a tack driver and my 300NM MPR has already arrived as well. I'm not sure if I need to keep my 6CM Nucleus w/Barloc order or sell my place to someone else. As much as I like what I'm hearing/reading about the action w/barloc and PVA barrels, its getting harder to justify keeping, and I'm usually very good at justifying even totally unnecessary items.
 
Aug 3, 2017
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The BA buyers are not being treated in the same manner as the JHR buyers. Per the update PVA has 80 actions sitting ready and waiting for engraving at ARC, for JHR buyers. The BA buyers have to wait until their action comes up in production sequence with ARC based on the order date. My order date for my BA I know would fall in with the 1st batch of JHR production, and there are actions sitting and waiting, but I will not be allocated one of these already produced actions. I'll live, but I think my deposit is just as legit as a JHR buyer. One of the reasons for going with PVA was that I knew they had an initial order in and would get the first batch of actions. It's really annoying when they could be completing orders for people they have the parts on hand to finish.
I don't think that's quite what happened. The JHR's required a minimum commitment from Josh in order to get the ball rolling to even create the Nucleus. Sounds like Josh committed to 80 actions in that JHR batch, which ARC built and is now holding, waiting for the ATF marking variance (government paperwork is a pain in the ass). The JHRs were committed months before the announcement of the Nucleus from either outfit.

ARC opened up pre-orders for the Nucleus action on Jan 16. I'm pretty certain that PVA announced Nucleus barreled actions two days later? Jeremy at PVA indicated they forwarded the PVA BA buyers list with accuracy down to the second for orders and that ARC is going to fit that list into their process. My assumption is ARC will combine those lists and move forward using a consolidated list. Again, this is an assumption based on what Jeremy's email contained.

Essentially the current outbound Nucleii from ARC are all pre-orders directly through the ARC website which were all ordered before the PVA BA opened up. The JHR's shouldn't even be considered here, those actions are built and were coordinated/purchased before the pre-orders even opened up from either ARC or PVA.

Full disclosure, I already have a nucleus in hand. I ordered directly through ARC because on day one PVA's website didn't have any indication they were involved with the Nuclues. I would have preferred to go the PVA BA route, but already had the non-refundable deposit down with ARC. Either way, I think Ted and Josh are both stand up guys and I'm happy with their collaboration. I think the roll-out/announcement could have been coordinated better to benefit both outfits, but at the same time I'm not terribly excited about huge marketing budgets and hype around products, which inevitably happens when focusing more on the optics of a product than the actual product.

I'm quite certain PVA understands your sentiment "It's really annoying when they could be completing orders for people they have the parts on hand to finish." more than you do yourself.
 

bohem

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The BA buyers are not being treated in the same manner as the JHR buyers. Per the update PVA has 80 actions sitting ready and waiting for engraving at ARC, for JHR buyers. The BA buyers have to wait until their action comes up in production sequence with ARC based on the order date.
My order date for my BA I know would fall in with the 1st batch of JHR production, and there are actions sitting and waiting, but I will not be allocated one of these already produced actions. I'll live, but I think my deposit is just as legit as a JHR buyer.
You are wrong here.

The JHR is a private labeled action, it cannot be used for a Nucleus barreled action per ATF requirement and per my agreement with Ted.
Your deposit for a BA doesn't get you in line for a JHR receiver, they're different products and not interchangeable.

One of the reasons for going with PVA was that I knew they had an initial order in and would get the first batch of actions. It's really annoying when they could be completing orders for people they have the parts on hand to finish.
You have no idea... the amount of time spent on paperwork and chasing down answers on said paperwork is worth close to 40 barreled actions worth of time that could have been spent on other things. You know, like completing barreled actions. Factor in that the $250 deposit covers about 1/6th of the currently outlayed costs for parts like triggers, stocks, barrel blanks, our machine and man hours for muzzle brakes and thread protectors... patience with "paperwork delays" is wearing thin in a lot of places.


I don't think that's quite what happened. The JHR's required a minimum commitment from Josh in order to get the ball rolling to even create the Nucleus. Sounds like Josh committed to 80 100 actions in that JHR batch, which ARC built and is now holding, waiting for the ATF marking variance (government paperwork is a pain in the ass). The JHRs were committed months before the announcement of the Nucleus from either outfit.

ARC opened up pre-orders for the Nucleus action on Jan 16. I'm pretty certain that PVA announced Nucleus barreled actions two days later? Jeremy at PVA indicated they forwarded the PVA BA buyers list with accuracy down to the second for orders and that ARC is going to fit that list into their process. My assumption is ARC will combine those lists and move forward using a consolidated list. Again, this is an assumption based on what Jeremy's email contained.

Essentially the current outbound Nucleii from ARC are all pre-orders directly through the ARC website which were all ordered before the PVA BA opened up. The JHR's shouldn't even be considered here, those actions are built and were coordinated/purchased before the pre-orders even opened up from either ARC or PVA.

Full disclosure, I already have a nucleus in hand. I ordered directly through ARC because on day one PVA's website didn't have any indication they were involved with the Nuclues. I would have preferred to go the PVA BA route, but already had the non-refundable deposit down with ARC. Either way, I think Ted and Josh are both stand up guys and I'm happy with their collaboration. I think the roll-out/announcement could have been coordinated better to benefit both outfits, but at the same time I'm not terribly excited about huge marketing budgets and hype around products, which inevitably happens when focusing more on the optics of a product than the actual product.

I'm quite certain PVA understands your sentiment "It's really annoying when they could be completing orders for people they have the parts on hand to finish." more than you do yourself.

Nailed it.
THe reason ARC stopped at 80 receivers is because we were getting the runaround on papework; Ted and I talked and I told him to just get other folks' stuff running, 80 receivers will keep us busy while you can make the next 20.


And whomever said something about coordinating Nucleii deliveries to PVA against the time stamp of the order also nailed it. We've said that a bunch of times in places like this thread, other threads on this forum, facebook, instagram, videos, interviews... that approach is far from a secret. ARC and PVA made a committment to the extra hassle of doing it that way to be more fair to the end customers. We were also very open and transparent about it.
 
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bohem

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Folks
We're getting a number of requests for the Hancock to offer 6.5 PRC
Right now we have it available in 6.5 SAUM but have sold exactly 2 of them, one guy ordered a barrel and another guy ordered a rifle.


With the number of requests for a 6.5 short action magnum sized case counted up it's pretty much ALL 6.5 PRC's. We are considering changing the caliber offerings over to include the PRC.

Any thoughts on it?
 
Aug 3, 2017
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Folks
We're getting a number of requests for the Hancock to offer 6.5 PRC
Right now we have it available in 6.5 SAUM but have sold exactly 2 of them, one guy ordered a barrel and another guy ordered a rifle.


With the number of requests for a 6.5 short action magnum sized case counted up it's pretty much ALL 6.5 PRC's. We are considering changing the caliber offerings over to include the PRC.

Any thoughts on it?
I think the 6.5 PRC is more appealing than the 6.5 SAUM due to factory ammo/brass. I didn't do the JHR so take my comments with that in mind, but I have a magnum bolt face on order for my nucleus specifically so you can put a 6.5 PRC in front of it at some point.
 
Feb 27, 2017
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On one hand, Prime did just launch 6.5 SAUM ammo and I'd assume that means someone is going to be announcing brass soon. On the other hand I think the PRC is going to have a greater chance of mainstream acceptance. Hornady backing, nonrebated rim for feeding from box mags, factory ammo available at local stores, cheaper dies (I picked up a Hornady match busing die on Amazon for $21, standard set is $45) and the performance was close enough for me to lean that way.

Looking forward to hunting the #2 barrel in 6.5 PRC I ordered from you after chatting yesterday morning. For my purposes it was the right pick.
 

bohem

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On one hand, Prime did just launch 6.5 SAUM ammo and I'd assume that means someone is going to be announcing brass soon. On the other hand I think the PRC is going to have a greater chance of mainstream acceptance. Hornady backing, nonrebated rim for feeding from box mags, factory ammo available at local stores, cheaper dies (I picked up a Hornady match busing die on Amazon for $21, standard set is $45) and the performance was close enough for me to lean that way.

Looking forward to hunting the #2 barrel in 6.5 PRC I ordered from you after chatting yesterday morning. For my purposes it was the right pick.
That is why I struggle with the change. It's an easy change for us to accommodate on face value because we have the reamers for production barrels already; we just need to use them.

On the other hand it alienates the guys (2 of them) who have 6.5 SAUM JHR's coming, we wouldn't support both of them at this time in the Hancock.

And on top of it PRIME is doing 6.5 SAUM ammo now and we have a collaboration with them on the reamers for 6 Creed and will for the 6.5 SAUM. Plus an ammo discount for Hancock owners on PRIME when they buy a rifle. So I don't want to alienate that aspect either, just sort of thinking out loud and seeing what folks think on it.
 
Jul 29, 2014
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After reading this article I don’t see a huge advantage to the 6.5 PRC over the 6.5 Creedmoor. I get the same velocity with 140 and 143’s out of my Creedmoor running RL26. I guess if the extra weight on the bullet is what you’re looking for then go for it. I need to read more about the SAUM.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/10/new-hornady-6-5-prc-precision-rifle-cartridge/
So take the extra ~200 fps you get reloading and add that to the PRC by reloading

We know hornady factory is slow so if you wanna compare the two with factory velocities at least be fair about it
 
Feb 27, 2017
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Hornady reloading data shows 3150 with 140/143 as the max for RL26 in the PRC. As said above, factory loads are slower. SAUM is definitely faster,but most stuff I've read says it only gets you 50-75fps. Add a little barrel length to the PRC and you're back in the right neighborhood.
 
Dec 17, 2017
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Why does it have to be an either-or situation?
I agree with this. If it's just a matter of using a different reamer it seems like a no-brainer to offer both since a lot of people want PRC now and there were certainly be some who want to shoot 6.5 SAUM when Prime starts offering the ammo for it. There isn't a limit to the number of calibers a rifle is offered in for Production division, is there?
 
Jan 23, 2014
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So take the extra ~200 fps you get reloading and add that to the PRC by reloading

We know hornady factory is slow so if you wanna compare the two with factory velocities at least be fair about it
Fair enough. I guess I would need to shoot one and see what other factors come into play. Recoil, cost of brass, powder charge cost variance, etc, to see if it’s really better and worth it.
 
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j741

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I agree with this. If it's just a matter of using a different reamer it seems like a no-brainer to offer both since a lot of people want PRC now and there were certainly be some who want to shoot 6.5 SAUM when Prime starts offering the ammo for it. There isn't a limit to the number of calibers a rifle is offered in for Production division, is there?
Every varying config has a cost to support it though. We don't know the exact cost for PVA, but I'm sure there is some. And if the JHR is on razor thin margins, even the smaller cost could affect long term profitability or accommodating possible price fluctuations.
 
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Dec 17, 2017
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Every varying config has a cost to support it though. We don't know the exact cost for PVA, but I'm sure there is some. And if the JHR is on razor thin margins, even the smaller cost could affect long term profitability or accommodating possible price fluctuations.
I fail to see any cost other than swapping out the reamers and lathe profiles (about a 2-5 minute job) and creating a new laser engraver profile to mark the caliber on the barrel. They already have the ability to ream 6.5 PRC barrels. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like a pretty minimal cost if it sells you additional rifles.
 
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I’d guess this is what is driving the either/or question.
I’m sure PVA will clarify today, but I'm almost certain it's the PRS rules causing their dilemma.
Otherwise i think we'd have seen them offer a JHR in every reamer they have which is quite a substantial list

I think the short list for the JHR, being common calibers, means they can go through each quicker without having to spend the time to switch reamers and programs, time that could be spent turning barrels. There's a reason they have calibers that cost a little more; they're not common enough and you're essentially paying for the time it takes to switch programs and tooling.

Website updated to 6.5 PRC, saum removed
 
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bohem

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Why does it have to be an either-or situation?
For a place our size, doing production, yeah it kinda does. The Hancock has a somewhat short list of calibers to keep on the shelf. Right now we are making them to order but the goal is to have parts on the shelf, barrels ready to screw on and assemble. Having 2 calibers that are very near the same performance makes for a bunch of cost that sits on the shelf. Especially considering we sold less than 2% of the currently pre-ordered hancocks on 1 of those calibers.

If the 2 Dashers are any clue I am hesitant to say we're going to see a big jump in rifles sold from adding the PRC alone. The Dashers combined sold fewer than the 6mm BR did and all 3 of those sold less than the 6 Creed; everything combined was less than what the 6.5 Creed did alone. So there's a clear winner there.

I was really hoping to see that someone would bring factory Dasher to the party, which is why we were doing both flavors of Dasher brass. I'd had some conversations with an ammo company that was looking to use the Norma brass to make factory Dasher for about $28/box retail but when the brass supplied dried up with Bullets.com closing that was the end of that idea.


I fail to see any cost other than swapping out the reamers and lathe profiles (about a 2-5 minute job) and creating a new laser engraver profile to mark the caliber on the barrel. They already have the ability to ream 6.5 PRC barrels. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like a pretty minimal cost if it sells you additional rifles.
I'd love to have someone come over and swap reamers on a turning center in 2-3 minutes without having a major risk of at least 2 problems

First time the reamer enters the bore it misses and explodes ($350 reamer toast, barrel rework needed, plus down time on the caliber to get another)
Second the headspace is way off and blows the hole too deep... more barrel rework needed.

Switching a reamer, dialing it in on the holder to get a true chamber, and making sure the headspace isn't blown on teh first cycle is about a 30 minute job.

We do offer the 6.5 PRC already, it goes in the Nucleus barreled action or anything else that's not the Hancock. But to make the Hancock profitable in any way we have to be very careful about the amount of configuration changes and options are there. There isn't much meat on the bone to begin with, adding cook time without adding meat to the pot isn't a recipe for more food.


I guess here's the final question posed directly:

If we add the 6.5 PRC to the lineup right now, who's ready to put a deposit on one of the rifles in response to it?
 
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bohem

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Otherwise i think we'd have seen them offer a JHR in every reamer they have which is quite a substantial list

I think the short list for the JHR, being common calibers, means they can go through each quicker without having to spend the time to switch reamers and programs, time that could be spent turning barrels. There's a reason they have calibers that cost a little more; they're not common enough and you're essentially paying for the time it takes to switch programs and tooling.

Website updated to 6.5 PRC, saum removed
Yessir, you hit it on the head.

We're going to offer the 6.5 PRC; the 6.5 SAUM orders will be honored as they stand but unless there's a compelling reason we'll just run the 6.5 PRC.

In fact I'm probably going to build a PRC for a hunting barrel this year because it intrigues me... I'm very tempted to make it a 6mm PRC instead; the reamer should be here right before the season comes in.
 
Oct 8, 2014
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Saw this on Facebook this morning;

Tuesday Morning Status:

John Hancock Rifles:
We confirmed with ATF that our application for Marking Variance is under review. There have been some changes required by the oversight agency which we have responded to and updated the documentation and process flow to comply.

We do not have a date for expected approval at this time. If we get an expected approval date or an approval we will put up a post about it.
In the mean time the JHR project is moving forward as we are cutting more barrels for it in the time we are awaiting approval so that customers can be notified for final payment and FFL info.


Tripods:
The first batch of tripods went out on July 17/18 (anything that had custom engraving went out on 18th). Reports back from customers have been extremely positive and we've placed a PO for a 3rd batch.


The second batch, estimated to ship Aug 6th is due here appx Aug 30th. There was a delay in 1 component that held up assembly. The delay was due to anodizing quality being rejected on the latches for the legs. The parts have been replaced with properly plated ones. We have updated the website accordingly.

The 3rd batch of tripods is slightly smaller than the first 2 due to parts availability. Those are due the 3rd week of September. Once we have a hard date of arrival to us we will open up orders for the next set.

Nucleus barreled action orders are in process for barrel work currently. We have not received the receivers yet but are expecting them sometime in the next 10 days based on status from ARC.

Muzzle brakes, Dasher conversion kits, barrel nuts, barrel tenon caps, and muzzle caps are all in stock and ready to ship.

Keep your eyes open for several new products coming for the discerning rifle shooter!
 

**DRB**

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I keep finding myself wondering if I should have gone with a Tikka... Then I take a look at the groups others are getting with ARC / PVA gear and the desire to have anything else fades....quickly.
 
Oct 17, 2017
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I keep finding myself wondering if I should have gone with a Tikka... Then I take a look at the groups others are getting with ARC / PVA gear and the desire to have anything else fades....quickly.
Haven't seen the groups - I'd be interested if you had a link? I've only read through the last page of this thread.

My Tikka CTR 6.5 CM shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA. I've had some 1-hole groups down at .1-.2, but that's definitely not the norm. All this is me handloading cheap hornady brass on my cheap RCBS rock chucker with beam scale, FL sizer to bump the shoulder, cheap hornady trimmer, etc. I've seen some Tikkas that will consistently do 1/2 MOA or a little better. Of course mine was $800 new when Whittaker's was selling them cheap. I'd be very interested to know what the PVA JH will do - when I shoot out my factory barrel, it's goinig to be a tough call between getting a PVA pre-fit or selling the whole thing and getting a JH.
 

j741

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I keep finding myself wondering if I should have gone with a Tikka... Then I take a look at the groups others are getting with ARC / PVA gear and the desire to have anything else fades....quickly.
I did go get a Tikka TAC A1 and I'm happy I did instead of waiting on the Nucleus BA that I pre-ordered. I still plan to take delivery of the Nucleus when it finally is ready, likely early next year. But I'm glad I've had a great rifle to shoot and use instead of waiting and having nothing.
 
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Jan 23, 2014
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Man I hope the JHRs are sooner than “early next year”.
Not sure where the “early next year” info came from but I know Josh and Jeremy are busting their asses to get all these components ready so when they get their ok from ATF for the JH it will be ready to go. As for the Nucleus barreled action I believe you will see them sooner rather than later. As Josh stated above they were expected to receive the Nucleus Action in “10 days!”
 

j741

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Not sure where the “early next year” info came from but I know Josh and Jeremy are busting their asses to get all these components ready so when they get their ok from ATF for the JH it will be ready to go. As for the Nucleus barreled action I believe you will see them sooner rather than later. As Josh stated above they were expected to receive the Nucleus Action in “10 days!”
It was not referring to the JHRs, but rather the nucleus barreled actions. There was a post from ARC that they were looking to get the Nucleus orders from January filled by the end of the calendar year. As my order was in Feb I figure I'm in to next calendar year.
 
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Had it been explained to me when I changed my initial order from a JHR to a BA that I would be placed in the back of the line, I would have just ordered the JHR and added the barloc later. It is very disappointing to read from the man himself. But, I suppose, like the wait for suppressors (although longer now), it'll all be worth it the first time you pull the trigger.
 
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So a buddy of mine brought his ARC Nucleus over tonight and we threw it into my KRG Bravo and man it was a sweet. The ergos of the bravo fit the nucleus really well. Those of you who are waiting for a Hancock, you are waiting for an unbelievable value in a rifle. Hopefully the ATF can get things moving soon. I can’t wait for my nucleus and PVA barrel.
 

BLKWLFK9

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Like I've said before. I've got a JH coming but I've already got a nuke with a PVA barrel. It's a blast to shoot and feels great. Those who haven't had the opportunity to feel one yet, you won't be dissapointed. The wait will be well worth it
 
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Feb 15, 2017
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So a buddy of mine brought his ARC Nucleus over tonight and we threw it into my KRG Bravo and man it was a sweet. The ergos of the bravo fit the nucleus really well. Those of you who are waiting for a Hancock, you are waiting for an unbelievable value in a rifle. Hopefully the ATF can get things moving soon. I can’t wait for my nucleus and PVA barrel.
Did you try putting upwards pressure on the mag to see if the bolt catches the feed lips? I have not tried this yet with my bravo but experience it with another chassis I have. I am just curious if the mag catch will need to be filed down on the bravo as well.
 
Nov 22, 2010
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Did you try putting upwards pressure on the mag to see if the bolt catches the feed lips? I have not tried this yet with my bravo but experience it with another chassis I have. I am just curious if the mag catch will need to be filed down on the bravo as well.
We really didn't mess with magazines much, I just threw a pmag aics in it and ran with it. We didn't have any issue with the pmag.
 

**DRB**

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Did you try putting upwards pressure on the mag to see if the bolt catches the feed lips? I have not tried this yet with my bravo but experience it with another chassis I have. I am just curious if the mag catch will need to be filed down on the bravo as well.

What did I miss? What’s wrong with mags / feeding?
 
Feb 15, 2017
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I was just curious if with upward pressure on the mag, if the bolt hit the feed lips on the mag. I have a Nucleus in a different chassis and was curious if anyone tried it in the Bravo. This is minor fitting and modifications to the feed lips or mag release at best. I was just curious and have not put my Nucleus in the Bravo i have as well. Pardon me if this should have gone in the Nucleus thread.
 
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But may not be bad to have here since the JHRs are in Bravos
The issue that I heard with the Bravo as I understand it was not from pressure on the bottom but from pressure being applied on the front of the mag while trying to stabilize and steady the rifle. Thus it canted the mag up in the rear. KRG, makes a accessory to prevent this from happening. It’s also been determined that some of the lips on the mags are preventing positive feed and they require trimming in order to work positive feed and not push feed.



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