Proof barrel for cz 455/457

nakoa01

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Head space set at .044
And the barrel is nit a true lightweight like others. 20in barrel is 27oz. Most are once per inch.

But what does everybody think of price and headspace?

I know a bartlein is probably top nod for a drop in but I love the looks of the proof. But that is a bug headspace. Likely have to shim bolt head.
 

MDrimfirerookie

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depends on what you are looking for in the use of the gun. listening to the guys from area 419, that headspace isn't the worst for nrl22 style matches since there is always the possibility of getting "stuff" in the action. i believe they said the bartleins are somewhere around .043.

now if you are looking for absolute benchrest accuracy, that is not good but at the same time you probably aren't looking at a drop in barrel.

at the end of the day it still comes down to the variability in 22lr ammo manufacturing though. that perfect headspace isn't worth a damn unless you are sorting by rim thickness on the ammo
 
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MDrimfirerookie

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SanginSpecial

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I had a conversation with Proof regarding headspace of their new drop-in barrel for CZ's. They seem very satisfied with whatever headspace that you end up with as long as it meets SAAMI specs. Based on my 2 457 receivers, I'd end up with headspace of .046" and .047" respectively. These measurements are based on a barrel tenon length of 1.189", as reported to me by Proof. I honestly expected more considerarion from a company like them. They literally said that only one other company provides a barrel that can be shimmed. I took that to mean that they felt justified, in some way, because of that. If you ask me, Lilja has done the learning for these other companies, but for whatever reason they would rather ignore that lesson. How hard would it be to set the shoulder back and provide a shim pack?

Based on my personal headspace experiments using a shimmable Lilja barrel, I would never spend 650.00 on a barrel that I would have to set the shoulder back on in order to get headspace where it needs to be.

As far as I know, Lilja is the only drop-in barrel maker that produces a barrel that can be shimmed for headspace. Based on experience, headspace does matter. Maybe not as much as some other factors, but every little bit helps when it comes to competing with custom and semi custom rifles such as Vudoo.
 

SanginSpecial

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not trying to be difficult, but wouldn't that be the risk you take when you have a factory manufactured action and a drop in / "pre-fit" barrel vs buying a blank and having it truly custom fit?
Who are you directing this question to?

If it was for me, I would have to ask... For a company to ask $650.00 for a barrel, wouldn't it be wise to set the shoulder back an additional .011" while it's chucked up, and then provide a shim pack, rather than end up with less than ideal headspace and accuracy? IMO.. Proof went 95% of the way on this, and the last 5% would have made their product comparable to a custom barrel as far as accuracy potential goes.


To your point, hopefully some barrel manufacturers are listening... For that kind of change, I would much rather buy a blank and custom spin and fit a barrel for my mass produced action. Carbon fiber is cool, but accuracy is much cooler. Oversized headspace is robbing accuracy.
 

MDrimfirerookie

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@SanginSpecial - it was not directed to anyone in particular. it was a question for others more knowledgeable than me.

thank you for your answer. it makes perfect sense to me. i agree that $650 is alot of money for something to not be close to ideal.

with that in mind, i have seen several posts from Area 419 about this and the Bartlein drop-ins are headspaced at .043 or .044 and they are saying that is acceptable for nrl22 / rimfire prs. do you think that could push an action out of saami spec?
 

pepelefrog

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Area 419 has them, I haven't seen much for reviews yet on the bartlein or proof.
Thank you for letting me know. It seems to me that Area 419 does not carry CF barrel for the CZ457. That barrel is what interest me. Do you happen to know any places that sell those? I would love to try my hand on a CF barrels for my CZ and proof is the only place that i know that have it. Any other place that also make good CF bbl for CZ?
 

MDrimfirerookie

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@pepelefrog - Area 419 has them in stock

 

pepelefrog

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@pepelefrog - Area 419 has them in stock

Oh, how did i miss that? thanks.
Edit: Oh it's listed in uncategorized instead of barrel. lol
 

SanginSpecial

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@SanginSpecial - it was not directed to anyone in particular. it was a question for others more knowledgeable than me.

thank you for your answer. it makes perfect sense to me. i agree that $650 is alot of money for something to not be close to ideal.

with that in mind, i have seen several posts from Area 419 about this and the Bartlein drop-ins are headspaced at .043 or .044 and they are saying that is acceptable for nrl22 / rimfire prs. do you think that could push an action out of saami spec?
MD.. SAAMI spec for 22lr headspace is .043" to .051". With that said, Area 419/Bartlein is within spec. The thing to remember about SAAMI specs is that they are a saftey first spec. As a business, Area 419 has to keep their rear covered, so they are obviously keeping headspace in the tightest end of spec. .043 to .044" will probably shoot quite well with Lapua/SK ammo since the rim thickness is .043". IME, .042" to .043" would allow for better accuracy potential, but for liability reasons, no drop-in manufacturer would likely ever go that tight. I can see how Area 419 can claim the lower end of the SAAMI spec, since they are custom building rifles. Proof could never claim that tight of headspace for CZ's with a barrel tenon at 1.189". With the variences in receiver/bolt depth on CZ 455 and 457 models, their headspace could potentially be anywhere from .044" to .049" based on the receivers I've measured.

Here's a glimps into my testing with some R50. The rim thickness of R50 is .041". I shot 5 groups of 5 shots and averaged them for comparison of varying headspace dimension. This testing was done at an indoor range off of a rest and rear bag. (Not optimal ammo for the rifle as far as lot testing goes. But, all testing was performed with the same lot in order to keep the playing field level.)

Headspace/ Group avg.
.039"/ .479"
.041"/ .390"
.042"/ .448"
.043"/ .567"

As you can see from this example test, just .002" of increased headspace had a dramatic effect on accuracy, and the tightest group average correlated with the ammo's actual rim thickness. I've since repeated this test several times with various ammo/lots, and each time I get the same result, headspace matching rim thickness gave the tightest groups. This particular test didn't cover .001" tighter than the ammo's rim thickness, but in other tests, it is very close to matching the results of headspace matching rim thickness.

I've kind of strayed off the original topic of the thread, but it was a good opportunity to attempt to warn folks of the pitfalls of headspace as it relates to drop-in barrels. I really hope that Proof listened to what I shared with them. They probably have a nice product, but it could be so much nicer if they'd finish the race, so to speak.
 

SanginSpecial

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well i'm just as guilty for the stray as i asked and you answered. thank you very much for that knowledge. it makes a ton of sense to me seeing real numbers and correlating them.
My pleasure!

Just for illustration, if in a controlled environment and everything stayed constant, with my rifle, that lot of R50, and headspaced at .041", I could theoretically shoot close to 3/4" groups at 100 yds. Increase the headspace by just .002" and my groups at 100 yds would grow to a frustrating inch and a quarter!

This is food for a seperate thread, but that same rifle, headspaced for lot tested Lapua Center-X, shoots consistent .2's at 50 yds!

I've learned through my experiments and testing, that like adjusting action screw torque values to attain max accuracy, headspace can be tuned as well. But so far, only with a Lilja drop-in barrel and their shims. Hopefully some other barrel manufacturers will jump on the shimmable drop-in wagon soon. I'd love to play with a shimmable Benchmark 2 groove barrel. A shimmable Proof, Shilen or Bartein barrel would be fun as well!
 

nakoa01

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Well I was the OP and I loved the straying. It only confirmed what i thought. Like the other poster i wanted the barrel for as much as looks as accuracy. And i wanted to keep the gun lightweight. 457 vpt with proof would be gorgeous. All i wanted was factory accuracy. That being said this paticular rifle us the most accurate factory rifle I have ever seen. But no way am I going to give 650 for a barrel gambling that it may or may not hold a half inch avg. Only option I can see is shimming the the bolt to decrease headspace.

Owning 4 cz 457s and testing a 5th. Stick a cci bullet in there and you can feel it get tight closing the bolt. Testing a used 455 spotter dine the same with cci bullet. Actually engraved the bullet all those shot very well with match ammo.

Sure wish BSF would make one.
 

SanginSpecial

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i guess we all just have to wait and see real world results. i think some have started making their way out into the wild. i agree that $650 is an awful big gamble for minimal improvement
Yep.. I'm curious to see real world results as well.

FWIW.. I reviewed my emails with Proof. They mentioned that their test rifle produced 10 shot groups at 50 yds that were ~.5" with Center-X, with some groups smaller than that. I would assume that they would have done some serious lot testing and these results were the best. For comparison sake, my CZ 457/Lilja produced ~.3" CtC 10 shot groups at 50 "meters" when it was lot tested at the Lapua test center.

Real world results are gonna be interesting.
 

Frankr

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that seems kinda crappy for what is supposed to be an improvement over the factory barrel.

but then i've seen lots of bitching about their 10/22 barrels as well.
I want one for my 457 but I’ve only seen 1 review of their 10/22 barrels (member here on the hide) and it was ok but nothing I would spend 600 on. I am excited to see more reviews
 

1911Oerator

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The Proof CF barrel defiantly has the "cool" factor, but for $650 IMHO don't think it's worth it without the results.. The 419 Bartlein seems to be the winner for me and with the sale going on this weekend makes it even a sweeter deal..