Procedure for cleaning AR barrel? I think I've done fudged up.

Apr 26, 2007
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#52
Yes really.

If you zero a scope at 25 yards when you move to 100 yards you will be on paper within inches of your zero.

Im assuming center fire cartridges my proving of this in 5.56, .308, and 30-06.

Daisy Red Ryder probably wont prove true.

Im assuming you are using a properly sized sight in target perhaps 24 inch x 24 inch - not 1/2 inch pasters.

Yes really.

When I sight a scope I cover the target backer with butchers paper for a clean surface to see shot holes if you do this you can use half inch pasters as your aim point.

Actually, rounds from all the cartridges that you cited will NEVER, EVER be LOW at 100 yards if zeroed at 25 yards as you are trying to convince us of. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them with be 2-3" HIGH at 100 yards if zeroed at 25 yards.

MM
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#59
Actually, rounds from all the cartridges that you cited will NEVER, EVER be LOW at 100 yards if zeroed at 25 yards as you are trying to convince us of. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them with be 2-3" HIGH at 100 yards if zeroed at 25 yards.

MM
I got high/low mixed up.

Recent Model 70 (30-06) zero at 25 yards you can see where I walked them up.

P8218198.JPG

Moved to 100 yards. You are absolutely right. I walked them down/left.

P9028215.JPG

P9028211.JPG

My main point was "you will be within a few inches of zero".

Instead of "Oh really" why not "Hey I think you got that backwards you will be a few inches high"?
 
Likes: 308pirate
Feb 14, 2017
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#66
This is fun. On this forum we sometimes dogpile on a guy that says something technically incorrect. And then at other times we dogpile on the guy that corrects a mistake, saying it was close enough before he stepped in.
 

BJames

Something witty
Jan 20, 2014
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#69
Loads of fun; especially when DF's like Bjames chime in.

Keep 'er goin'...............got all day.

MM
Just a joke.

Then again, after looking at it from your perspective, I’m going to change my stance. The guy has stated he’s as new as it gets to long guns. Telling which way or the other where he’ll be on target in respect to his shorter range zero probably will fuck with his head some. Simply stating POI be close enough to POA to fine tune from there would have been better.
 
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RNWRKNP

Sophisticated Redneck
Dec 13, 2017
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#70
So........your first rifle is a JP AR10 with a Nightforce scope🤔 I wasn’t sure before but I def hate you now🤨🤣😂🤣Just funnin amigo and don’t sweat this bump in the road. Enjoy the rifle as it sounds like you have a damn fine one😎
 
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BJames

Something witty
Jan 20, 2014
85
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Alaska
#72
Oh I'm not butt hurt about anything here. Lotta good info to take in. I guess I took "Buy once, cry once" to the extreme :).
I don’t think so, there’s a lot of merit towards both arguments. Knowing what I know now, I wished I would’ve saved up longer and bought what I really wanted. Either way, you seem to be on the right path, learn as much as you can from the very beginning, ask questions, and get training.
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#73
My first rifle when I started getting back into shooting after a twenty year break was a Garand.....

but when I started getting into it, like @Srikaleak seems to be doing, I did similar putting a bunch of money on an LMT with an S&B.

If you like this sport starting with that high end AR almost guarantees a future $5 - $7K purchase of a custom bolt gun/scope setup of some sort.

Okay here is some further theory to maybe help Srikaleak out or for me to step on my dick again....

@Srikaleak understand this now, imprint it in your brain, and just know it is natural law like a revolving earth brings night and day..........a bullet does not rise when it leaves the muzzle of your rifle/pistol. There is no aerodynamic lift or whatever someone wants to imagine it. A bullet is not a wing.

This kind of ties into my F - up regarding "a couple inches low" comment. So lets explain that so you know what that was about.

First know in your mind that it is a fact that from a perfectly level muzzle the elevation of the bullet in flight can only decrease from the point of the muzzle. The only "rise" of the bullet will result from the angle you input on your bore.

So I suggest a 25 yard initial sight in. Why 25 yards?

A. The amount of error is 1/4 what it would be at 100 yards. So if your scope is off 4 inches at 25 yards you should still be "on" a target 12"x12" wide but at 100 yards you would be off 16" and not see the shot on your paper to adjust from. Usually with a new scope the error is greater and at 100 yards unless someone is spotting the berm for you you have no idea where to adjust to.

B. A 25 yard zero has a correlation with a 200 yard zero with the cartridges I am familiar with - 5.56, .308, 30-06 - and I assume others. A "zero" represents the point where the flight of the bullet determined by the angle of elevation on your barrel and the line of your sighting device intersect.

So your sight system looks on a straight line to your point of aim while your muzzle is pointed in the direction of the target at some angle necessary to get the bullet to travel the desired distance. Where the straight sight line and the angled muzzle line intersect is ideally your desired point of impact but no it never is when you put a new scope on a new rifle as you are doing until you adjust the scope reticle to align with the bore/bullet path of flight.

So you take your first 25 yard shot and you see your shot is 2 inches higher than your point of aim and 3.5 inches right.

You tried holding the rifle steady and moving your reticle cross hair over onto the shot hole. I do this with scopes that have turrets that really have no reference or the crosshairs are standard crosshairs. It works great but during a solo session its kind of a pain holding the rifle steady and manipulating what are typically coin slot adjusters in that type of scope.

You have a NightForce with I assume some sort of MOA or MilDot reticle so you can measure the correction using your reticle reference.

If you are using a Milliradian based scope measure how many mils are represented by 2 inches high and 3.5 inches right. Looking through your scope you can measure approximately +/-.4 mil high and .9 mil right. Adjust your turrets - down .4 mil and left +/-.9 mil - than take your next shot hopefully showing POA/POI agree after doing so.

So now why does this help at 100 yards and what happens to the bullet after it passes through the paper at 25 yards.

At 25 yards the bullet intersects across line of sight and due to the angle you have imparted on your muzzle the bullet is now above your line of sight. Gravity is acting upon the bullet fighting velocity and angle of departure forcing that bullet to come back to earth. At some point gravity defeats velocity/angle and it reaches its Apex/Max ordinate and begins to return to earth.

At some point the bullet will again cross your straight line of sight. That point for my cartridges is 200 yards down range.

Getting in the weeds here you may not want to read this paragraph- Im not sure, smarter guys will hopefully chime in, but I think this is a constant of sorts. Projectiles may have different velocities and require different angles of departure to reach certain distances but the effect of gravity is constant and rates of fall are consistent. I dont totally understand it what relation makes this little snippet true but there is a proof of this exhibited by showing that if you drop a bullet from your hand and fire a bullet from a rifle, the time in the air from drop and time in flight from muzzle to return to earth are equal. Im guessing the timing of the two falls would need to occur at max ordinate. I also recall the exhibit in my local science museum I saw as a kid of a feather in one tall vacuum tube and a bowling ball in an adjacent tall vacuum tube both being dropped and landing at the same time - gravity always wins and effects everything equally assuming environmental variances are removed.

Back on track...

So your bullet departed over your line of sight at 25 yards and it returns to your line of sight at 200 yards.

The typical change in zero from 100 yards to 200 yards is +/- 2 MOA. So at 100 yards your 25 yard initial zero will equate to using a 200 yard zero at 100 yards which should provide impacts on target 2 inches HIGHER than your point of aim (remember bullets always fall and you have to impart angle on the muzzle to reach 200 yards). If you measure it with your Mil reticle it will show about +/-.4 mil higher.

So using a suitable sized sight in target and with the ability to hit POA at 25 yards you should be within two inches HIGHER of where you want to be at 100 yards.

You would be much better hearing this in the online training Lowlight provides or a local class though because what I gave you above is based on what my rifles tend to exhibit and any errors in reading/notetaking I made while learning it......as well I could be a 650 pound troll wearing an oxygen mask in my Moms basement, all Incel like, just spouting shit to hope someone hits "like" to impart a value to having taken the effort to wake up and don dirty sweatpants after rubbing one out into my yellowed sheets..........but I digress.


PS - I dont often think of this shit. Thank you in your newness for making me ponder what I probably take for granted and due to familiarity look on with contempt - at my peril.
 
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W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Oct 1, 2005
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#75
A useful counter point graphic would be to show the actual bullet path if the barrel is pointed exactly level horizontally (relative to the ground.)

That helps to demonstrate why for close range targets that you are trying to get really small groups with, to a certain extent speed really helps.
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#76

Like this graphic.

I just put a TA33 ACOG on my 16 inch AR carbine and if I understand this right a 300 yard zero, center hold will get me hits on a torso out to some distance beyond 300 yards and for 400 yards I have from center mass to top edge of plate holds to increase my hits.

I did the standard 100 yard zero despite experiencing a BZO of 300 while in .mil.

My reticle is the dot surrounded by horseshoe. With 3X mag its not like Im going much beyond 300 yards....Im thinking I should toss the Trijicon directions to zero at 100 and go with the @spife7980 graphic.
 

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#77
A useful counter point graphic would be to show the actual bullet path if the barrel is pointed exactly level horizontally (relative to the ground.)

That helps to demonstrate why for close range targets that you are trying to get really small groups with, to a certain extent speed really helps.
That would be the "theoretical trajectory" in this image in this image if the muzzle was level, aka zeroed at zero yards.
1542817999505.png

And crudely here
1542817875130.png


And more eloquently here
1542817752318.png


1542817770461.png
 

W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Oct 1, 2005
3,241
3,232
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#78
You'll find bullet speed affects the Theoretical trajectory greatly as it's distance traveled in x amount of time vs. the pull of gravity downwards at the same time speed.

That is why you have "flatter shooting" cartridges, because due to speed and/or aerodynamics they travel further in a given time period and as such you don't need to launch them into as much of a parabolic curve as others to reach the same spot.
 

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
4,228
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#79
Like this graphic.

I just put a TA33 ACOG on my 16 inch AR carbine and if I understand this right a 300 yard zero, center hold will get me hits on a torso out to some distance beyond 300 yards and for 400 yards I have from center mass to top edge of plate holds to increase my hits.

I did the standard 100 yard zero despite experiencing a BZO of 300 while in .mil.

My reticle is the dot surrounded by horseshoe. With 3X mag its not like Im going much beyond 300 yards....Im thinking I should toss the Trijicon directions to zero at 100 and go with the @spife7980 graphic.

I liked it too, notice that the 300 yard zero is also the same as a 25 yard zero.
Other bullets and powder weights scope heights over bore etc Ive heard that its a 25/225 yards zero. The main thing is that it keeps all of the distances in between essentially just an inch or two outside of the actual reticle center. Great for simple cross hairs or single dots.

That said I have a burris rt6 and I zero for what the reticle is calibrated around, a 100 yards zero and then just use my nice lines. Havent shot it enough to say exactly how well they align but the correct notch got 2 out of 2 hits on my 500 yards on my steel pig plate with some shit 55gr frontier shit after load development last weekend. Good enough for something I wont ever shoot all that much.
1542818649353.png
 

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
4,228
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#80
You'll find bullet speed affects the Theoretical trajectory greatly as it's distance traveled in x amount of time vs. the pull of gravity downwards at the same time speed.

That is why you have "flatter shooting" cartridges, because due to speed and/or aerodynamics they travel further in a given time period and as such you don't need to launch them into as much of a parabolic curve as others to reach the same spot.
1542818827059.png
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#81
You'll find bullet speed affects the Theoretical trajectory greatly as it's distance traveled in x amount of time vs. the pull of gravity downwards at the same time speed.

That is why you have "flatter shooting" cartridges, because due to speed and/or aerodynamics they travel further in a given time period and as such you don't need to launch them into as much of a parabolic curve as others to reach the same spot.
Am I correct in thinking that there is a constant to this.

I remember being told that if you drop a bullet its time of "fall" is the same as that of a fired bullet returning to earth.

The only way I could consider this true would be the time of "fall" from max ordinate.....bullet reaches max ordinate and its ability to overcome gravity is basically spent which changes the degree of descent and destroys that nice even parabolic arc.

If you could be on a scaffold the height of max ordinate and hand dropped a bullet at the exact moment the fired bullet was passing both would impact earth at the same time.
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
8,127
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#83
I liked it too, notice that the 300 yard zero is also the same as a 25 yard zero.
Other bullets and powder weights scope heights over bore etc Ive heard that its a 25/225 yards zero. The main thing is that it keeps all of the distances in between essentially just an inch or two outside of the actual reticle center. Great for simple cross hairs or single dots.

That said I have a burris rt6 and I zero for what the reticle is calibrated around, a 100 yards zero and then just use my nice lines. Havent shot it enough to say exactly how well they align but the correct notch got 2 out of 2 hits on my 500 yards on my steel pig plate with some shit 55gr frontier shit after load development last weekend. Good enough for something I wont ever shoot all that much.
View attachment 6973855
Thats similar to my TA33 horseshoe save no windage lines.

Makes sense to zero as directions state than hold as marked.

I never shoot at anything that shoots back. If stuff did shoot back at me a 300 yard zero and just using the green ring to cover any man sized thing center mass would be real fast at putting rounds into "Oh shit!" range.
 

Srikaleak

Sergeant of the Hide
May 11, 2018
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#84
@Srikaleak

start a new thread and dont come back to this one....all this nerding out will fuck you up..
Nah this is exactly what I want to see. This convo evolved into something fit for another sub forum but I'm gonna let it ride.
I'm not that incompetent although my posts may indicate otherwise.
 

Srikaleak

Sergeant of the Hide
May 11, 2018
412
175
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#88
Wish me luck guys, range day #2 happening today. Plan of Attack:
0. Found the absolute center of my revolutions on my NF C618. Bought Redfield Precision Sight In Targets. Got my scope mounted with proper torque settings.
1. Setup at 25 yds, shoot, adjust via mils (1 mil/3.6 inches) and not by tracking reticle to hole because of unstable platform.
2. Move out to 50 yds, rinse and repeat
3. Move out to 100 yds, rinse and repeat.
4. Shoot some groups, practice WTF as much as I can
5. Come back home, patch clean and lube down action.
6. Review and improve.

I'll start my data book too.

Confounding variables: scope not trued, scope may be improperly mounted and not straight, eye relief positioning may be bad, others...
 
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