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redneckbmxer24

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Here's some context for some of you fellas that seem to think illumination is an absolute necessity on FFP scopes.

It's the perfect morning for it too. This is absolute worst case scenario low light conditions. It recently rained, we are socked in with cloud cover. The only way it could be worse out is if there was an eclipse.

This first photo is taken bearing about 75 degrees down my street. So almost due east. The second one is taken facing west. The street lights are still on, so let's not get confused about what time it really is. This is exactly 7:41am, exactly legal shooting light 30 minutes before the 8:11 am sunrise.


This is through the XTR3 at 3.3x zoom looking at trees at roughly 100 yards, the pine is further. The fuzzy phone pic through the camera makes the crosshair tough to distinguish. But getting on the stock and looking through the scope, I have absolutely zero issues seeing the crosshair in what is most likely the worst low light conditions I would ever encounter in legal hunting hours.


These photos are facing east at 10 minutes till sunrise. And then again at 8:15 am 4 minutes after sunrise. The sun "should" be coming up over the roof of the house in the right of the photo.


This is worst case scenario early morning shooting light. From the minute it became legal to shoot and beyond, I had a usable reticle at 3.3x with the thinnest reticle I own.

I'm not posting this up as an attack on anyone. It's not about what brand of scope you use. I'm posting this to show you guys what I've said all along. Low light scenarios are overrated. If you own a hunting scope without illumination, it's extremely unlikely it would ever limit your ability to take a shot during legal hunting hours.

If you want illumination, buy it. It doesnt effect me or anyone else. It's your scope and you're the only one you need to be please. As long as the question is there about whether you need it? It's not likely. Everyone can come up with a scenario and say what if. If what if worries you, then get illumination. If you didnt have it, you would probably discover you can still take the shot just fine.

If this still isnt enough to get you guys thinking about it, do this yourself. Test it out. I'll think you'll be surprised at how much you can see. Especially if the sky is clear. It's pretty bright outside just before the sun comes up.

You might want to check your clocks homie, I've been all over this country and I've never seen anywhere that it's that bright 30 minutes before sun rise, especially when it's that overcast. I still think you're full of shit.

Sunrise here was 7:21 AM and at 7:00 it was still dark as fuck because that's the time I went out to put my trash out. It's started getting light around 7:05.

I'm on the west coast of FL and it does stay surprisingly bright here after sun set but that's because everything is flat and I'm right on the coast where the sun sets. That's an exception though. Where I lived in VA all of my life until June of this year it started getting dark about 5 mins after sunset and that pretty much been the norm everywhere else I've been. Usually by the 30 minute mark all you can do is make out shadows, you sure as shit aren't seeing a black etched reticle whether it FFP or not.
 

morganlamprecht

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You might want to check your clocks homie, I've been all over this country and I've never seen anywhere that it's that bright 30 minutes before sun rise, especially when it's that overcast. I still think you're full of shit.

Sunrise here was 7:21 AM and at 7:00 it was still dark as fuck because that's the time I went out to put my trash out. It's started getting light around 7:05.

I'm on the west coast of FL and it does stay surprisingly bright here after sun set but that's because everything is flat and I'm right on the coast where the sun sets. That's an exception though. Where I lived in VA all of my life until June of this year it started getting dark about 5 mins after sunset and that pretty much been the norm everywhere else I've been. Usually by the 30 minute mark all you can do is make out shadows, you sure as shit aren't seeing a black etched reticle whether it FFP or not.
i gotta agree...30 min before sunrise looks way darker in south tx than the pics posted

its 715-720 sunrise down here also. i drive into work from 630-650 and its still dark almost with all cars head lights on
 

SmartDonkey

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I'm also in Idaho... at 6000 feet- and that's not how it works here. When the sun goes behind the mountains thats about it- things get dark fast. It has nothing to do with thick timber- just angles. Down in a valley or flat land you may get light way before you see the sun but not when the sun rises over one mountain range and sets over the other.

If I wanted to shoot 30 minutes after sunset with a ffp on low power I would need a spot light.... and I hear they frown on that.
 

wade2big

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Here's some context for some of you fellas that seem to think illumination is an absolute necessity on FFP scopes.

It's the perfect morning for it too. This is absolute worst case scenario low light conditions. It recently rained, we are socked in with cloud cover. The only way it could be worse out is if there was an eclipse.

This first photo is taken bearing about 75 degrees down my street. So almost due east. The second one is taken facing west. The street lights are still on, so let's not get confused about what time it really is. This is exactly 7:41am, exactly legal shooting light 30 minutes before the 8:11 am sunrise.


This is through the XTR3 at 3.3x zoom looking at trees at roughly 100 yards, the pine is further. The fuzzy phone pic through the camera makes the crosshair tough to distinguish. But getting on the stock and looking through the scope, I have absolutely zero issues seeing the crosshair in what is most likely the worst low light conditions I would ever encounter in legal hunting hours.


These photos are facing east at 10 minutes till sunrise. And then again at 8:15 am 4 minutes after sunrise. The sun "should" be coming up over the roof of the house in the right of the photo.


This is worst case scenario early morning shooting light. From the minute it became legal to shoot and beyond, I had a usable reticle at 3.3x with the thinnest reticle I own.

I'm not posting this up as an attack on anyone. It's not about what brand of scope you use. I'm posting this to show you guys what I've said all along. Low light scenarios are overrated. If you own a hunting scope without illumination, it's extremely unlikely it would ever limit your ability to take a shot during legal hunting hours.

If you want illumination, buy it. It doesnt effect me or anyone else. It's your scope and you're the only one you need to be please. As long as the question is there about whether you need it? It's not likely. Everyone can come up with a scenario and say what if. If what if worries you, then get illumination. If you didnt have it, you would probably discover you can still take the shot just fine.

If this still isnt enough to get you guys thinking about it, do this yourself. Test it out. I'll think you'll be surprised at how much you can see. Especially if the sky is clear. It's pretty bright outside just before the sun comes up.
Idaho is a hell of a lot brighter 30minuted before sunrise than in Texas for some reason. Your opinions differ on the over stated illumination on ffp scopes used for hunting. Lets just agree on that and let it die in this thread as not to derail any longer my friend

edit: @morganlamprecht, @redneckbmxer24
I wrote my post before reading what you guys wrote. Said the same damn thing. 😂
Sunrise is 7:24 here this morning. We couldn’t start working until 7:15 because it was too dark for the hands on the rig.
 
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Birddog6424

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Idaho is a hell of a lot brighter 30minuted before sunrise than in Texas for some reason. Your opinions differ on the over stated illumination on ffp scopes used for hunting. Lets just agree on that and let it die in this thread as not to derail any longer my friend

edit: @morganlamprecht, @redneckbmxer24
I wrote my post before reading what you guys wrote. Said the same damn thing. 😂
Sunrise is 7:24 here this morning. We couldn’t start working until 7:15 because it was too dark for the hands on the rig.

Everyone step outside your doors tomorrow at 9 minutes till sunrise and tell me what you see. My pic above has a 10 minute till sunrise.

Lets go fellas. Everyone tomorrow, rain or shine, 10 minutes till sunrise pics. Face your phone to the east and show the sun isnt up yet, but its 9 minutes away, and let's see what it looks like. No screens, no filters, just snap the pic. Let's see what's so different about where you live..
 
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MarinePMI

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Not to stir the pot even more, but I've hunted a fair bit in Texas too. In legal shooting hours I never needed illumination. Just my experience....

(Now my buddy, that was shooting with irons, yeah, he was screwed out of a nice buck because he couldn't see his sights at first light).
 
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Birddog6424

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I'm also in Idaho... at 6000 feet- and that's not how it works here. When the sun goes behind the mountains thats about it- things get dark fast. It has nothing to do with thick timber- just angles. Down in a valley or flat land you may get light way before you see the sun but not when the sun rises over one mountain range and sets over the other.

If I wanted to shoot 30 minutes after sunset with a ffp on low power I would need a spot light.... and I hear they frown on that.
See. Now I get that. I've seen that. The sun behind the mountains casts shadows long before sunset. I agree it can be pretty damn dark in some places by the time the sun goes down.
 

redneckbmxer24

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Isn't Boise in an inversion zone where it's at a lower elevation than the surrounding mountains? That's my understanding because that was my other choice of place to move when I moved to FL and was doing research. If that's the case that would mean the mountains would shield Boise even more from the light after the setting sun, and would mean you're even more full of shit.
 

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I dont. And I dont think a person will need it with the SCR.

I actually played around with this scope at 22 minutes before sunrise the other day. I could see the thinner SCR2, it was usable.

I've been saying for years the whole low light scenario is overblown. You hear about it in nearly every hunting scope discussion. But I've never seen low light conditions ever be an issue with seeing your reticle. I've been hunting been game fanatically since 1978.

If it's so dark that you cant see the reticle etched into a lense 5 inches from your face, how on earth are you able to identify what your shooting at.
I got a boar on Saturday and would have had a difficult time picking up any reticle that wasn't either a RDS or illuminated. I saw a Boar at legal shooting light (30 mins prior to SR) and couldn't see a damn thing but the red triangle in my Trijcon, the pig and big trees - I didn't take that shot because I was unsure of my shot through the trees and where a couple other hunters might be/backstop.

An illuminated reticle of some kind was a HUGE help in the shot I did make and would have been a necessity for the one I passed on. I'd rather have irons with a fiber optic or gold bead up front to a non-illum reticle if you were to give me the same shot(s) again. Granted, it was close range and magnification was completely irrelevant (I think I had it on 2x...which was more than enough).

ETA: OP - take a look at Trijicon. They do some SFP stuff you might like if you can abide any of their reticle choices.
 
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MarinePMI

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Isn't Boise in an inversion zone where it's at a lower elevation than the surrounding mountains? That's my understanding because that was my other choice of place to move when I moved to FL and was doing research. If that's the case that would mean the mountains would shield Boise even more from the light after the setting sun, and would mean you're even more full of shit.

First off, you might want to keep it civil there dickhead.

Second, why do you give a fuck if he can or can not see fine without illumination?

Fuck dude, quit being "that keyboard, internet douche guy" and hurling insults at people without a fucking shred of anything to back it up other than your own fucking opinion.

These are all OPINIONS, so get the sand out of your vagina...
 

morganlamprecht

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I’ve got this pic from a few weeks ago...it was 32 min after sunset based on google for that day vs pic time stamp

brush in front is prolly 20 yds
Hill with the arrow is 725...I shot from there about 30 min prior...used illum on a low setting

did i NEED it? maybe not, i could see the reticle, but it helped tho

28F212CC-2A75-4516-BC85-3B69568D9F26.jpeg
 

Birddog6424

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Isn't Boise in an inversion zone where it's at a lower elevation than the surrounding mountains? That's my understanding because that was my other choice of place to move when I moved to FL and was doing research. If that's the case that would mean the mountains would shield Boise even more from the light after the setting sun, and would mean you're even more full of shit.
Wtf are you talking about. An inversion zone? Are you just making things up now? We rarely to never see inversions here.

No, Boise is not surrounded by large mountains.
 

Birddog6424

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I’ve got this pic from a few weeks ago...it was 32 min after sunset based on google for that day vs pic time stamp

brush in front is prolly 20 yds
Hill with the arrow is 725...I shot from there about 30 min prior...used illum on on a low setting

View attachment 7232159
That's a good pic, looks about right. But does seem dark. Do you think you could see a scope reticle?
 

19dsniper

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For everyone, let's not forget that our new fancy cameras and phones adjust the ISO automatically to brighten a picture in low light.
Bird dog, I'm not saying you didnt take the pic when you said you did. Im not here to argue that, hell I'm just here for recommendations, but I've spent enough time behind a camera to know that what you see with your eye isn't what you always get in your photos. I will try to snap a few pictures tomorrow morning from my location in Texas AT legal shooting light. I will line up my NF, Razor gen 2, bushnell g2, and some others. FFP. I will set up my DSLR (cannon 5dMk3) to represent what I see with my naked eye and I will lock in the setting on Manual so all pics are taken with the same exact settings. I am curious to see for myself how well it photographs. I've spent plenty of time behind them before, during, and after legal hours, but never tried to photograph it. We will see how it turns out. What I find interesting is that at least here in central texas, I can promise you that we didnt have that much light this morning. It would be interesting to find out if elevation plays a part in how much light there is at different times and locations. I've never considered that before. Legal shooting light tomorrow is 0658. I will be ready with camera!
 
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redneckbmxer24

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First off, you might want to keep it civil there dickhead.

Second, why do you give a fuck if he can or can not see fine without illumination?

Fuck dude, quit being "that keyboard, internet douche guy" and hurling insults at people without a fucking shred of anything to back it up other than your own fucking opinion.

These are all OPINIONS, so get the sand out of your vagina...
Because he's spewing nonsense to peddle his brand just like he does all the time. Sunrise and sunset times and ambient light is fucking science and a matter of fact, not an opinion.

Short of being extremely close to the north or south pole and it being the right time of year, this is not something that is even remotely debatable. He's talking out of his ass and it's as simple as that. I've been to Boise and I've been to places that are more north than that, and they are not special where it gets light sooner in the morning or stays light significantly longer than the rest of the continental US. You've gotta to well up into Canada or Alaska to see that.
 

MarinePMI

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For everyone, let's not forget that our new fancy cameras and phones adjust the ISO automatically to brighten a picture in low light.
Bird dog, I'm not saying you didnt take the pic when you said you did. Im not here to argue that, hell I'm just here for recommendations, but I've spent enough time behind a camera to know that what you see with your eye isn't what you always get in your photos. I will try to snap a few pictures tomorrow morning from my location in Texas AT legal shooting light. I will line up my NF, Razor gen 2, bushnell g2, and some others. FFP. I will set up my DSLR (cannon 5dMk3) to represent what I see with my naked eye and I will lock in the setting on Manual so all pics are taken with the same exact settings. I am curious to see for myself how well it photographs. I've spent plenty of time behind them before, during, and after legal hours, but never tried to photograph it. We will see how it turns out. What I find interesting is that at least here in central texas, I can promise you that we didnt have that much light this morning. It would be interesting to find out if elevation plays a part in how much light there is at different times and locations. I've never considered that before. Legal shooting light tomorrow is 0658. I will be ready with camera!

I'm thinking terrain and surrounding vegetation plays a more significant role. I hunted up in Abilene (south of) and didn't have issues, but it was in an area that had a lot of low cut feed plots that had been allowed to dry out (yellow in color). Hunted in Va, NC, MT, CA...hell, even in the UK. While there are times illumination would have been nice, it wasn't really needed. The exception to that was in NC (Croatan NF), where there are some deep hollows that get dark as hell at sunset. Again, terrain and vegetation. But those are just my experiences.
 
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MarinePMI

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Because he's spewing nonsense to peddle his brand just like he does all the time. Sunrise and sunset times and ambient light is fucking science and a matter of fact, not an opinion.

Short of being extremely close to the north or south pole and it being the right time of year, this is not something that is even remotely debatable. He's talking out of his ass and it's as simple as that. I've been to Boise and I've been to places that are more north than that, and they are not special where it gets light sooner in the morning or stays light significantly longer than the rest of the continental US. You've gotta to well up into Canada or Alaska to see that.

Dude, you've lived in Va and FL. Shut your pie hole. Twilight is a LOT longer up north (and no, Va ain't north)... Hell, it may as well be the UK, regarding light at sunset. It lasts a LOOONNNNNGGGGGGG time.
Have you looked at a fucking map? Idaho borders with Canada!!!!!!! Do you geography much?

And so what if he's a Burris fan boy? Everyone knows that. There's no need to act that way towards him just because you don't like him shilling for Burris. Just tune it out...
 

redneckbmxer24

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Wtf are you talking about. An inversion zone? Are you just making things up now? We rarely to never see inversions here.

No, Boise is not surrounded by large mountains.
"Rarely to never" meaning only every fall/winter? LOL

Just google search "Boise inversion zone".... And yes, Boise sits down in a valley with mountains surrounding it... which is what causes the inversion...

Maybe you need to go educate all the scientists since they're wrong.


boise inversion zone





Here's a video from Bogus Basin which is up in the mountains surrounding Boise and you can see the valley Boise is in along with all the other mountains that surround it. But yeah, I'm the one making stuff up:




 

MarinePMI

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Ummm....Anything that isn't on the Continental Divide is technically in an "inversion zone"...
 

redneckbmxer24

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Dude, you've lived in Va and FL. Shut your pie hole. Twilight is a LOT longer up north (and no, Va ain't north)... Hell, it may as well be the UK, regarding light at sunset. It lasts a LOOONNNNNGGGGGGG time.
Have you looked at a fucking map? Idaho borders with Canada!!!!!!! Do you geography much?

And so what if he's a Burris fan boy? Everyone knows that. There's no need to act that way towards him just because you don't like him shilling for Burris. Just tune it out...
Guess you missed the part where I said I've spent time up north, specifically Boise and that was my other top pick to move to but Florida won out, because fuck winter. I've been to every state except AK and HI, most I have been to multiple times.
 

Birddog6424

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Definitely a Burris fan boy. Unrepentant.

I've been on these boards a while, I think most people realize that.

But this isnt about Burris or any other brand. I simply am sharing my opinion that I have never needed illumination in 40 plus years of big game hunting throughout the northwest. That's fact gentleman, you can't take that from me or call bullshit.

Reality exists even when you no longer believe in it. The reality is I snapped those pics at the time I posted. Whether you guys believe it or not. Argue variance in pic quality, geographical location, or make up inversion issues. Whatever. But it is what it is. I'll take time stamp video tomorrow.
 

MarinePMI

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Guess you missed the part where I said I've spent time up north, specifically Boise and that was my other top pick to move to but Florida won out, because fuck winter. I've been to every state except AK and HI, most I have been to multiple times.

And this excuses your behavior...how? Makes you an expert over someone that lives there 24/7, how?
 

redneckbmxer24

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And this excuses your behavior...how? Makes you an expert over someone that lives there 24/7, how?
Pardon me, I forgot that we live in a society now where you can't call someone on their bullshit. My bad.

Because of his discovery I'm sure we will see this on the news tonight how the science world has been turned upside down and time as we know it is wrong.
 

morganlamprecht

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That's a good pic, looks about right. But does seem dark. Do you think you could see a scope reticle?
i could see in general

the issue really depends on animal vs backdrop contrast to me

a black pig, in some of those shaded areas zoomed below 10x...probably not well, but i could use the thick outter lines to get close enough to make a short to mid range shot decent

a light brown deer in the open areas, would be easier...this is where the deer i shot was, in the middle of the tan rocks i took the pic from

where i was on the hill, i probably had about 5 more min of being able to see the reticle with no illum looking down to the ground...i wasnt using illum at first, we waited about 15-20 min before i could get a good shot...clicked on the illum for the last 5 min or so just to make it easier on my eye, it was starting to wash out a little bit on the darker background areas
 
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Birddog6424

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"Rarely to never" meaning only every fall/winter? LOL

Just google search "Boise inversion zone".... And yes, Boise sits down in a valley with mountains surrounding it... which is what causes the inversion...

Maybe you need to go educate all the scientists since they're wrong.


boise inversion zone





Here's a video from Bogus Basin which is up in the mountains surrounding Boise and you can see the valley Boise is in along with all the other mountains that surround it. But yeah, I'm the one making stuff up:




I know where Bogus Basin is. Go look at my pic facing east. See those snowy mountains in the bottom? That's where Bogus Basin is.

And those are only mountains by definition. They dont resemble anything truly mountainous. The summit there is over 7k, which isnt bad, but the range itself is much lower. They only appear elevated because Boise is only about 2500 ft above sea level. Only someone who doesnt have any idea what it's really like to see mountains would make a statement that Boise is surrounded by mountains. The tiny little range at goes that heads north towards Pearl is it. We as locals call those the Foothills. And they are north of the city only, and just barely. To south is high desert called the Great Basin. You can use your Google Fu skills on that as well and concoct an equally ridiculous argument.

And I know what an inversion is. And we rarely see anything of any significance worth noting. In a real inversion they tell you to not use wood burning stoves, because the smoke gets trapped down against the town. That never happens here. I rarely hear on the news that we are having an inversion of any significance.

But again, Google makes experts of us all.
 
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redneckbmxer24

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Please take pics with a phone (or other device which the time cannot be altered) in the picture tonight 30 mins, 20 mins, and 10 mins before sun set as well at sun set time, and then the same thing tomorrow morning? I'm going to ask my buddy in Garden City to do the same thing and we can compare.
 

19dsniper

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Not stirring the pit with this bit...
Tomorrow mornings line up will be a Bushnell elite 3.5-21 DMR II FFP, Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.7-27x56 FFP, Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 F1 FFP, Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 NPR-1 SFP, I may throw in my Razor gen 2 1-6x at 6x bc its SFP and why the hell not. I figure that setting it at 6 and others at 6 might give something to compare to. More for shits and giggles.
 
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Birddog6424

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Please take pics with a phone (or other device which the time cannot be altered) in the picture tonight 30 mins, 20 mins, and 10 mins before sun set as well at sun set time, and then the same thing tomorrow morning? I'm going to ask my buddy in Garden City to do the same thing and we can compare.
Deal!

I never knew you could alter the time on your phone. I though it downloaded it from the internet. I'm not tech savvy.

But that's besides the point. I'm not lying and have no intention of lying over a difference of opinion on the internet.
 

DJL2

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I can play too! Here in southwest GA, my Garmin tells me that SR is 0739. Happy to take a snap if I'm smart enough to remember. More importantly, how does one get a buck to relocate with specificity? There's a nice youngin' that'll look really good this coming winter (or next) that spends most of his time in a no shoot area. Damn near had to shoo him off the running path this morning.

ETA: five minutes left of legal shooting light tonight and I cannot see a damn thing. Maybe a non-issue since I'd be hard pressed to acquire a reasonable shot on game in these conditions. Sadly, cannot figure out how to turn auto brightening off on my phone's camera. If I were shooting right now, my choices would be illumination or guessing.
 
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deersniper

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I do ALOT of low light/ no light hunting. For me, I can not personally use a non illuminated FFP reticle any less than 8x at night. The reticle is just too small in the FFP scopes I've used in the past. Everything from Razor gen 2, ATACR, etc. We have a scientific research permit that allows us to spotlight deer from a vehicle. So what we end up doing is driving around and spotlighting for their eyes. Most of our "spotlights" are actually smaller lights with around 200-250 lumens in a diffused beam. Then we hold the light off to the side, (they run off if your light is too bright, and/or your light is directly in their eyes) and are actually using the peripheral light to take the shot. This is about as low light as you can get without going to NV or thermal. We are set up with thermal and NV, but even though we are legally allowed to use it at night according to our permit, we may not be allowed to use it according to the contract.

So, that has nothing to do with my original post, but I would agree that FFP and low light do not mix well in most situations.
WTH is a scientific permit lol

Heard of crop damage and over population cull permits. Never the “scientific permit”
 

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WTH is a scientific permit lol

Heard of crop damage and over population cull permits. Never the “scientific permit”
We have a scientific research permit that allows us to hunt after legal hours, with night vision, thermals, spotlights, suppressors, no caliber restrictions, etc. It also allows us to hunt from vehicles. They are very limited and take alot of work to get. We have 2 Doctors on staff. One is a DVM and the other is a Virologist. We also have 3 biologists. The permit allows us to use the above mentioned methods to take or manage a herd. Once we have taken the animals we draw blood for lab tests, take tongue snips, pull any ticks we find, and all of that is tested for contagious pathogens. As we clean the animal we are checking for adhesions, and other signs of general health to include grading of internal organs. Once the animals are checked throughly, they are then donated to a contracted processor to be turned into meals for the local area food bank to feed the homeless. The labs are then checked locally, sent off to a second lab on the west coast for double checks, then over to a 3rd lab up north for the same testing. All results are independent and none of the results are compared until all results from the 3 labs are back. That information is what allows a transparent and thorough investigation into transmissible and non transmissible Zoonotic diseases. This includes CWD, TB, and others.
 

Downtown

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I don't think that's unusual. As a university researcher doing wildlife research, I had permission to harvest wildlife outside of this states usual game regulations. Kind of like a permit.
 

JakeM

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WTH is a scientific permit lol

Heard of crop damage and over population cull permits. Never the “scientific permit”
Never mind. As far as the illumination thing, there is a crap ton of other stuff to shoot while you’re out there. Hogs, possums, skunks, yotes, medium size cats, beaver. Illumination is a must for me with and ffp or thin sfp.
 
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19dsniper

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LMAO, are you guys really arguing over how dark it is in each others neck of the woods?
Well, unfortunately that's what its turned into. I asked for recommendations on a light weight mountain rifle scope. Preferably SFP. That turned into a pissing match of how FFP is just as good in low light bc there is always enough light to see a FFP reticle even in low light.....
I tried getting it back on track earlier but there were still too many panties in a wad, so yeah... Here we are.
 

deersniper

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We have a scientific research permit that allows us to hunt after legal hours, with night vision, thermals, spotlights, suppressors, no caliber restrictions, etc. It also allows us to hunt from vehicles. They are very limited and take alot of work to get. We have 2 Doctors on staff. One is a DVM and the other is a Virologist. We also have 3 biologists. The permit allows us to use the above mentioned methods to take or manage a herd. Once we have taken the animals we draw blood for lab tests, take tongue snips, pull any ticks we find, and all of that is tested for contagious pathogens. As we clean the animal we are checking for adhesions, and other signs of general health to include grading of internal organs. Once the animals are checked throughly, they are then donated to a contracted processor to be turned into meals for the local area food bank to feed the homeless. The labs are then checked locally, sent off to a second lab on the west coast for double checks, then over to a 3rd lab up north for the same testing. All results are independent and none of the results are compared until all results from the 3 labs are back. That information is what allows a transparent and thorough investigation into transmissible and non transmissible Zoonotic diseases. This includes CWD, TB, and others.
Interesting. Thanks
 

deersniper

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And there’s some crack smoking or lack of experience going on in this thread.

Some ffp reticles are close to useless in certain situations. Like a snap or running shot where every second counts
 

wade2big

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im still waiting to meet the guy who says "i didnt shoot that massive 'x' because my watch said 7:31 and the sunrise table said 7:32.. . . . but they may be out there
😂 that doesn't describe me at all. We hunt when we can Identify the shot. Never before and never after. Lol
 

skeet16

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I hunt in central MS with a fairly high hog population and run a 5X25 ffp scope, I turn my reticle on when I get set up an do not turn it off till I get back to my buggy. At 35 to 50 yds pigs are unmistakable and have pulled the trigger on a many a pig before and after legal shooting hours(completely legal) and that wouldn't have been possible without a illuminated reticle. would I have had to use a lighted reticle with a SFP scope?( probably not) I think its all personal preference and what you fell and have the most confidence in, as for me I will only run FFP lighted reticle but from @Birddog6424 pics I am really looking forward to seeing a lighted reticle version of the 3rd gen Burris. @19dsniper have you looked at the mark5 3.6x18? I have thought hard about giving this scope a try but not sure I want to spend that much extra for illumination.
 

Birddog6424

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LMAO, are you guys really arguing over how dark it is in each others neck of the woods?
Why yes..

Yes we are..

Apparently it's super bright in my neck of the woods due to rocky mountain air inversion. Or in spite of it, I'm not sure I got that worked out. In other woods it's too dark to see your hand in front of your face 9 minutes before sunrise.

At any rate we have descended into ridiculousness but have the bit in our teeth. ;)
 

SCGunner84

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Despite Birddog's devout loyalty to Burris, I have to side with him on this one. (And for the record, I'm not a real big Burris fan.)

If it's so dark you can't see the reticle...well, it's likely past (or not yet) legal shooting time. IDK, are you guys that say you need it, hunting in heavy timber or some type of terrain that blocks light?

The light gathering capabilities of high end scopes these days is phenomenal...
In SC we get an hour prior to sunrise and hour past sunset for deer hunting. Depending on moon phase you can see a little longer but I like an illuminated reticle on my hunting scopes. Although my preference is just a dot illuminated in the center of the crosshairs.
 
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19dsniper

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I hunt in central MS with a fairly high hog population and run a 5X25 ffp scope, I turn my reticle on when I get set up an do not turn it off till I get back to my buggy. At 35 to 50 yds pigs are unmistakable and have pulled the trigger on a many a pig before and after legal shooting hours(completely legal) and that wouldn't have been possible without a illuminated reticle. would I have had to use a lighted reticle with a SFP scope?( probably not) I think its all personal preference and what you fell and have the most confidence in, as for me I will only run FFP lighted reticle but from @Birddog6424 pics I am really looking forward to seeing a lighted reticle version of the 3rd gen Burris. @19dsniper have you looked at the mark5 3.6x18? I have thought hard about giving this scope a try but not sure I want to spend that much extra for illumination.
I actually looked into it alot. I really like the magnification range, size, and weight. I'm just kinda turned off by leupold right now. I had problems with a Vx3i a few years ago. They eventually made it right on the 3rd try and sent me a new scope. The first one I had wouldn't track straight up and down. It would track up and right. Alot right! They sent me a replacement once they had it in hand and inspected it. The replacement they sent me would fog up real bad and I sent it in a few months later for purge. I noticed it about 2 weeks after I got it back, but I was so disappointed in leupold that I now had another headache to deal with, that I didn't do anything with it for a while. So #2 went to them and they fixed it. I sold it after that and was kinda bummed with the quality slipping. So I was actually really hesitant to try this Vx5hd. So honestly, maybe I'm being so critical of them because I've had problems in the past, but expected them to up their QC over time. Honestly, I appreciate your recommendation and I've weighed the cons of the MK5, I just dont know if I really want to try another Leupold after all this. I may give it another try.
 
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MarinePMI

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I run a Mk 5 5x25...they're on a totally different level than the rest of the Leupold's. People forget that the Mk 5 is based on everything they learned (the hard way) on the VX-5 and Mk 6 lines...

You really should (if you get the chance) find one to look through. I was honestly surprised and impressed by the Mk 5 (and I'm a big Vortex Gen 2 Razor fan).
 
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19dsniper

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I run a Mk 5 5x25...they're on a totally different level than the rest of the Leupold's. People forget that the Mk 5 is based on everything they learned (the hard way) on the VX-5 and Mk 6 lines...

You really should (if you get the chance) find one to look through. I was honestly surprised and impressed by the Mk 5 (and I'm a big Vortex Gen 2 Razor fan).
Dont take this the wrong way, but I was impressed with the Vx5 when I looked thru it. Like I said, i was impressed with the weight, glass, color rendition, CA, etc. It was even good in low light. I just wasn't impressed with the QC.
I may try and borrow one from a buddy. He lives 3 hrs away, so not super easy to do, but I'm sure he would let me borrow his MK5. I've heard good things about them. I've also heard good things about the VX5. Lol.
 

MarinePMI

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Yeah, I hear you "Once bitten, twice shy" and all that. That being said, it was pretty well talked about here years ago, about all the issues the VX-5's had (hence why, until the Mk5, Leupold got no love on the Hide). I'm betting (obviously) that you didn't see those threads before buying the VX-5 (which is really unfortunate).

Anyways, good luck on the scope you have decided on. Hopefully, it'l treat you better than the VX-5 did.