New 'production' rifle from PVA - J. Hancock

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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Thanks, I appreciate the candid & open response. You, and your engagement here as well as your up-front approach does add more to the "pros' side of going with the JH.

On the cons side, though, for me as a newcomer, even with the great member feedback here, it is a hurdle to get past the absence of the guarantee. If its doesn't shoot well then I'd feel it was a $2k loss. Even if only a very small percentage like 1/1000 aren't tack drivers, I'd hate to be the person that ends up with one of those.
We've had a total of 3 barrels in the last 2000+ that didn't shoot sub 1/2 MOA, including the prefits that folks drop into a Ruger American ($350 base rifle) without any further input from me. All 3 of those exhibited issues of a bad barrel blank. We replaced all 3 of them at no additional cost to the customer and I handled it on the back end with the blank maker.

I have about 1 phone call a month from someone that tells me I cut them a bad blank.
I pay for the rifle to come back, I throw 20 rounds in a bag and take it to the range with one of my scopes on top that is proven to work properly.

Sit down, bore sight it. Fire 3-5 to get on target and then promptly cut a sub 1/2MOA group, usually several in a row.

Rifle shoots fine. It's either a scope or a user error.
Now comes the fun part.

I've just sunk half a day and about 175 bucks in out of pocket costs to prove to the person that they either own a POS scope or they don't know how to shoot. How do you think it goes over if I hand them a bill for the time and costs involved to prove that to them?

The Hancock does not have margin built into the price point to absorb those costs, especially because it's a very high end product for the new user market. This is also the market that has the highest rate of "your rifle is fine but you need to take a class" phone calls.

The alternative is to roll the dice by putting cheaper parts into the gun so that I sell it for the same price and when the inevitable happens I have cost built into the price point where I can absorb those costs.
 

lennyo3034

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 18, 2010
1,710
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MOA guarantees are a crock of shit.

My Tikka is a 1.5 MOA 3 shot group gun. Occasionally it'll do better than MOA but with three shot groups its a random number game. I'm not willing to pay shipping both ways and pay Tikka's $75 charge so that can shoot a bunch of groups and pick the best one and tell me the rifle is fine.

I'd much rather go with a company based on the reputation over some marketing BS. That's actually why I went with Tikka for that rifle but I just happened to get a rare lemon.
 
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jbailey

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 27, 2010
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Josh,
How did your testing with the Hancock and 223 Prime ammo go? Any update on this rifle in 223?
Tempting to get one of these in 223 for the kids (cause my 6x47 is a bad recoil machine :) )
 
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diverdon

Online Training Member
Dec 21, 2011
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WNY
Josh,
How did your testing with the Hancock and 223 Prime ammo go? Any update on this rifle in 223?
Tempting to get one of these in 223 for the kids (cause my 6x47 is a bad recoil machine :) )
And what mags are giving you the best results?
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,193
535
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Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
Josh,
How did your testing with the Hancock and 223 Prime ammo go? Any update on this rifle in 223?
Tempting to get one of these in 223 for the kids (cause my 6x47 is a bad recoil machine :) )
I'm still awaiting a bolt head and extractor but we'll be sure to keep updates flowing as I have more data.

And what mags are giving you the best results?
I did testing to make sure the mags would present properly even if we can't extract by using the 308 bolt head. The MDT mags fed 100% into the chamber in a KRG Bravo using the EXP SN 2
 

ICU22250

Perfectionist
Feb 13, 2017
1,112
75
48
WV
MOA guarantees are a crock of shit.

My Tikka is a 1.5 MOA 3 shot group gun. Occasionally it'll do better than MOA but with three shot groups its a random number game. I'm not willing to pay shipping both ways and pay Tikka's $75 charge so that can shoot a bunch of groups and pick the best one and tell me the rifle is fine.

I'd much rather go with a company based on the reputation over some marketing BS. That's actually why I went with Tikka for that rifle but I just happened to get a rare lemon.
Just send it to Josh and he will shoot a 1/2 MOA group with it and send it back to ya... I'm Joking, no hard feelings. Lol.. All in fun...
 
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j741

Hide Member
Sep 10, 2017
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Greater Seattle Area
We've had a total of 3 barrels in the last 2000+ that didn't shoot sub 1/2 MOA, including the prefits that folks drop into a Ruger American ($350 base rifle) without any further input from me. All 3 of those exhibited issues of a bad barrel blank. We replaced all 3 of them at no additional cost to the customer and I handled it on the back end with the blank maker.

I have about 1 phone call a month from someone that tells me I cut them a bad blank.
I pay for the rifle to come back, I throw 20 rounds in a bag and take it to the range with one of my scopes on top that is proven to work properly.

Sit down, bore sight it. Fire 3-5 to get on target and then promptly cut a sub 1/2MOA group, usually several in a row.

Rifle shoots fine. It's either a scope or a user error.
Now comes the fun part.

I've just sunk half a day and about 175 bucks in out of pocket costs to prove to the person that they either own a POS scope or they don't know how to shoot. How do you think it goes over if I hand them a bill for the time and costs involved to prove that to them?

The Hancock does not have margin built into the price point to absorb those costs, especially because it's a very high end product for the new user market. This is also the market that has the highest rate of "your rifle is fine but you need to take a class" phone calls.

The alternative is to roll the dice by putting cheaper parts into the gun so that I sell it for the same price and when the inevitable happens I have cost built into the price point where I can absorb those costs.
Thanks, as a newb to this area I am obviously still lacking of bit of knowledge about the industry in this area. Hope I didn't insult with my questions. I do thank you for being so honest. I'm going to spend some time building skills with my current rifle and then, when it comes time to it, I will almost certainly be getting the JH.

I may have missed it - is the rail on the rifle a 0 MOA or 20MOA?
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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www.patriotvalleyarms.com
Keep us updated on the 223 options! Very interested
For the whole rifle to come in a 223 we'll see, I'd like to someday but for right now it's gonna stay a 223 trainer kit add on.

The 223 Trainer Kit will be comprised of a bolt head, 223 barrel in a 7 twist Med Palma, and an MDT mag will be included in the 223 Trainer Kit.
 

diverdon

Online Training Member
Dec 21, 2011
2,760
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WNY
For the whole rifle to come in a 223 we'll see, I'd like to someday but for right now it's gonna stay a 223 trainer kit add on.

The 223 Trainer Kit will be comprised of a bolt head, 223 barrel in a 7 twist Med Palma, and an MDT mag will be included in the 223 Trainer Kit.
I see that MDT makes two different mags for short action which one was it that you had success with metal or polymer?

or
 
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Feb 14, 2017
874
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DC Area, MD
For the whole rifle to come in a 223 we'll see, I'd like to someday but for right now it's gonna stay a 223 trainer kit add on.

The 223 Trainer Kit will be comprised of a bolt head, 223 barrel in a 7 twist Med Palma, and an MDT mag will be included in the 223 Trainer Kit.
So lack of time, lack of faith, or lack of interest? I don’t have a JH rifle on order, but I’m looking to piecemeal a .223 Nucleus over time.
 
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So lack of time, lack of faith, or lack of interest? I don’t have a JH rifle on order, but I’m looking to piecemeal a .223 Nucleus over time.
I’m doing the same thing, thinking about grabbing a criterion bull barrel and having it profiled and threaded for an Allen engineering reflex Suppressor
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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www.patriotvalleyarms.com
So lack of time, lack of faith, or lack of interest? I don’t have a JH rifle on order, but I’m looking to piecemeal a .223 Nucleus over time.
Until the mags are 100% reliable they aren't going into the rifle as a turn key, off the shelf thing. As a trainer kit if there are occasional issues feeding then it's much less of an issue.

The other option is to just sell it and if you have issues feeding then go figure it out... I don't like presenting customers with that option.

The polymer MDT mags have shown excellent promise but until I have a 223 head/extractor in hand and I personally go put about 1000rd through one in various orientations and environmental conditions I don't consider the fact that it works on the bench to be a ready to sell product in the rifle as a baseline.

I see that MDT makes two different mags for short action which one was it that you had success with metal or polymer?

or
The polymer mag is the 223 magazine...


I’m doing the same thing, thinking about grabbing a criterion bull barrel and having it profiled and threaded for an Allen engineering reflex Suppressor
That's gonna end up costing you more than just ordering a prefit NUCLEUS barrel from us and tacking on 50 bucks extra for the Allen Engineering program.[/QUOTE]
 

NateVA

Basement Dweller
Feb 10, 2017
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Until the mags are 100% reliable they aren't going into the rifle as a turn key, off the shelf thing.
What is the best way to contact you for a build estimate? I'm in line for a long action magnum Nucleus and want to figure out how much the full build will cost me once it's in.
 
Dec 21, 2009
233
47
28
30
Petersburg, WV
Until the mags are 100% reliable they aren't going into the rifle as a turn key, off the shelf thing. As a trainer kit if there are occasional issues feeding then it's much less of an issue.

The other option is to just sell it and if you have issues feeding then go figure it out... I don't like presenting customers with that option.

The polymer MDT mags have shown excellent promise but until I have a 223 head/extractor in hand and I personally go put about 1000rd through one in various orientations and environmental conditions I don't consider the fact that it works on the bench to be a ready to sell product in the rifle as a baseline.



The polymer mag is the 223 magazine...



That's gonna end up costing you more than just ordering a prefit NUCLEUS barrel from us and tacking on 50 bucks extra for the Allen Engineering program.
[/QUOTE]

You have an Allen engineering program? 😍😍
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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www.patriotvalleyarms.com
What is the best way to contact you for a build estimate? I'm in line for a long action magnum Nucleus and want to figure out how much the full build will cost me once it's in.
Just send me a PM.

You have an Allen engineering program? 😍😍[/QUOTE]

I've cut several. They need to go on a Heavy Palma or heavier blank the way I cut them into the barrel. We made some coned washers before for them but it always needed more torque on the can than I liked installing it with to make sure the stack didn't loosen.
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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I forgot to post in the last comment...

Since I have EXP 00002 here and I have the assembled rifle in the shop we did some bench testing as well as I took it to the range today.

Barrel breakin on the 6mm Creed was appx 8rds til the holes were overlapping, 12rds total til it was stacking circles on top of each other.
It was super cold and blowing sleet so I couldn't see past 300 and even at 300 it was hard to see the steel. I was shooting the eyes on a pig silhouette at 300 yards with factory 108 Hornady 6 Creed ammo, the barrel had 18 rounds down it when I started and 8 hits later my trigger finger was truly numb.

It ran without issue using an AICS mag as well as the ARC mag that I replaced the guts in with my follower and spring. The ARC mag was actually super smooth and effortlessly feeding with the new guts in it.
 

jbailey

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 27, 2010
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It was super cold and blowing sleet so I couldn't see past 300 and even at 300 it was hard to see the steel.
damn, we are regular wimps down here in VA. Just a hundred miles south and we had nothing but rain and 35* temps. North of the Mason Dixon line, the men are just tougher. Sounds like the JH is shooting just fine - no surprise here.
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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Badass! These should clean up production class for the most part with good shooters I'd reckon..
The goal with this is to remove the rifle from the equation... IE bring Production Class back to "the Indian not the Arrow".

We shot it some more today. Sub 1/2MOA 4shot groups with numb trigger fingers... sub 1/4 MOA 3rd groups because that's all the trigger fingers could handle. Pounding out the steel at 700yd and breaking fist sized stones at 640 with ease.

The rifle is a performer.
 

jbailey

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 27, 2010
1,505
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The goal with this is to remove the rifle from the equation... IE bring Production Class back to "the Indian not the Arrow".
Respectfully disagree. This might be the end state, once every one is walking around with a JH, but until then, Native Americans (to be PC) carrying JHs will have advantage over those not carrying one. I do look forward to seeing how this arms race develops. Pushing the race is what makes this fun despite the fact some guys get butt hurt over it.
 
Oct 8, 2014
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The goal with this is to remove the rifle from the equation... IE bring Production Class back to "the Indian not the Arrow".

We shot it some more today. Sub 1/2MOA 4shot groups with numb trigger fingers... sub 1/4 MOA 3rd groups because that's all the trigger fingers could handle. Pounding out the steel at 700yd and breaking fist sized stones at 640 with ease.

The rifle is a performer.
I'm getting more excited every time you post Josh. I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas to arrive...and I still have three more months to wait.

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this rifle. 1518124622838.png
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
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Took me until today to see PVA has the option for barreled actions only....whoops, little bit late to that party lol
The barreled actions are branded as NUCLEUS actions, they're not branded as a John Hancock action. The baseline is the same as the JHR but with the barreled actions you get the flexibility to upgrade to BarLoc, change barrel contours, etc.
 

man32ahan

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 2, 2018
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Can it be ran with a muzzle brake and have a spigot mount installed and remain in Production class or do those two items bump it out? Anyone know?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I read that a brake can be utilitized without being bumped out of production, but what about spigot mount?
 
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bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,193
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Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
Can it be ran with a muzzle brake and have a spigot mount installed and remain in Production class or do those two items bump it out? Anyone know?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I read that a brake can be utilitized without being bumped out of production, but what about spigot mount?
You can add the Spigot mount too.
They updated the rules to clarify this. People asked about bolt on attachments to the rails. So long as there is no end-user required "gunsmithing" the bolt on stuff seems to be kosher.
 

man32ahan

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 2, 2018
192
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Fairfield, Illinois
You can add the Spigot mount too.
They updated the rules to clarify this. People asked about bolt on attachments to the rails. So long as there is no end-user required "gunsmithing" the bolt on stuff seems to be kosher.
Thank you sir! If you want to move order #2096 to the front of the line it would be much appreciated haha
 

1jonathan1994

New Hide Member
Feb 21, 2018
29
1
3
Laurel, MS
I've joined S.H. just for this rifle. All I have is a an arsenal of 3 gun stuff and a precision 6.5Cr AR10 and i have decided on this for a bolt gun over a Bergara or MPA, but I have hesitations about the whole waiting half a year concept even though I know this deal is worth it.

1. Is the deposit refundable if we buy something already on a shelf before summer?

2. If i put a deposit down today the 6.5 Creed is first up and sounds like delivery about June/July. If I were to pick say 6 Creed or 6 Dasher would that be just a month behind or are we talking Christmas/next Christmas? Would we have the option to later wait on a 6mm with our 6.5 deposit.

3. If if got a 6.5 Creed, when would 6 barrels be available for separate purchase?

4. As far as 6 Dasher, did Norma fix their brass/primer pockets or is Lapua and hydro forming the way to go? 6BR just sounds too slow for me.

5. Why no 6x47 Lapua option? Too close to Creedmore?

BTW. You can tell me "no" and it wont hurt my feelings. Just asking cause I'm impatient.
 
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j741

Hide Member
Sep 10, 2017
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Here's my understanding from trying to keep up on everything posted:

I don't see it explicitly called out but I'd be surprised if the deposit were refundable. On the Nucleus Barreled Action the text does specifically state the deposit cannot be shifted to another product. I would think that changes in configuration/options within the same product would be OK though.

#2 is a good question. I'm in for a 6.5 PRC Nucleus BA and I'd hate to have to wait until Christmas while others who ordered a 6.5CM a month or more after me got their rifles ahead of me. I'm hoping that to not be the case.

I don't think #4 is directly related to this rifle :) I don't have an answer either though.

You can get the 6x47 in the Nucleus BA, just not in the JH. JH has limited calibers to contain costs.
 
Feb 15, 2017
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jonathon, I was told by Josh that the new Norma brass is good now. He strongly recommended going the Norma route if you hadn't fire formed before. The way you ff supposedly can have a big effect on quality of brass and the life of it. I do not have first hand experience with any of the BR/Dasher stuff but had the same question you did. Hopefully more will chime in.
 
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KPLC

Send it!
Mar 8, 2017
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Interested in getting a Nucleus barreled action, not so much the JH.

6 Dasher guys, are you going in favor of the Norma brass chamber or the Lapua Brass chamber? Lapua Brass is unobtainium at the moment. There’s a website selling Lapua BR ammo that would probably work for fire forming.
 

Brazo

New Hide Member
Feb 4, 2018
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For those of you gentleman going the barreled action route, what contour would you recommend? This route opens up all contours not just the medium palma that comes standard on the JH.

I am going 6BR and I would like a 22" barrel length. I would like the rifle to balance appropriately in either a KRG Bravo or more likely a Mcmillan A-5 with standard fill.

I only have a remington varmint contour to compare. Have never used a medium palma before and am not sure which is heavier and if a heavier contour then either of these would be appropriate to achieve my balance goals.

Thank you all for your responses
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,193
535
113
Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
I've joined S.H. just for this rifle. All I have is a an arsenal of 3 gun stuff and a precision 6.5Cr AR10 and i have decided on this for a bolt gun over a Bergara or MPA, but I have hesitations about the whole waiting half a year concept even though I know this deal is worth it.

1. Is the deposit refundable if we buy something already on a shelf before summer?

2. If i put a deposit down today the 6.5 Creed is first up and sounds like delivery about June/July. If I were to pick say 6 Creed or 6 Dasher would that be just a month behind or are we talking Christmas/next Christmas? Would we have the option to later wait on a 6mm with our 6.5 deposit.

3. If if got a 6.5 Creed, when would 6 barrels be available for separate purchase?

4. As far as 6 Dasher, did Norma fix their brass/primer pockets or is Lapua and hydro forming the way to go? 6BR just sounds too slow for me.

5. Why no 6x47 Lapua option? Too close to Creedmore?

BTW. You can tell me "no" and it wont hurt my feelings. Just asking cause I'm impatient.
1) The deposit is non-refundable. This is done to cover some of the costs associated with the original PO's involved in ordering parts. Placing an order for a rifle and then backing out means I have a PO for parts that are set against your purchase. Backing out leaves me with extra parts that may not be easy to push around.

2) THe barrels deliveries are going to be after the pre-order of rifles is complete or I'm cutting that caliber. Meaning that if a customer does what you're suggesting, orders a rifle in say 6.5 and also a spare barrel in 6BR the rifle will ship without the spare pipe until we are cutting 6BR's and then we will put the spares onto the back end of the rifle order run.

3) Barrels are available for purchase now and they cement your place in line with the spare barrels. If you wait til August to order a barrel it may or may not be August when you get it. It's hard to say as we are speaking hypotheticals that still have months of work involved.

4) The latest Gen of Norma brass is actually very good. I won't be switching for the simple fact that I am so heavily intertwined with the Lapua brass that the only way I'm going to shoot the Norma is if someone starts making factory ammo using that brass.

My 105 Hybrids and 6BR load pumps them at 2900fps, I also shoot the 95TMK at 3065fps. It's pretty darn capable not to have to fireform.

5) Simple limitation of variables for production. If you want a 6x47 then the performance twin is 6 Creed. The only non-factory ammo chambers we are doing on the JHR will be the 2 dasher variants and we're only doing that to provide a jumping off point for a manufacturer to get on board with factory Dasher. This is like VHS vs. BetaMax in the precision calibers game... the company that makes the factory ammo for Dasher first is going to clobber the market.




Here's my understanding from trying to keep up on everything posted:

I don't see it explicitly called out but I'd be surprised if the deposit were refundable. On the Nucleus Barreled Action the text does specifically state the deposit cannot be shifted to another product. I would think that changes in configuration/options within the same product would be OK though.

#2 is a good question. I'm in for a 6.5 PRC Nucleus BA and I'd hate to have to wait until Christmas while others who ordered a 6.5CM a month or more after me got their rifles ahead of me. I'm hoping that to not be the case.

I don't think #4 is directly related to this rifle :) I don't have an answer either though.

You can get the 6x47 in the Nucleus BA, just not in the JH. JH has limited calibers to contain costs.
Bingo. We have to draw the line somewhere.

For those of you gentleman going the barreled action route, what contour would you recommend? This route opens up all contours not just the medium palma that comes standard on the JH.

I am going 6BR and I would like a 22" barrel length. I would like the rifle to balance appropriately in either a KRG Bravo or more likely a Mcmillan A-5 with standard fill.

I only have a remington varmint contour to compare. Have never used a medium palma before and am not sure which is heavier and if a heavier contour then either of these would be appropriate to achieve my balance goals.

Thank you all for your responses
Those goals are then well fit by a Medium Palma. The JHR sits a little front heavy with a 26" medium palma and no scope. With a scope it depends on the model of optic a lot but the balance point with a Khales 624i and spigot mount is about 3/4" forward of the recoil lug, a 22" barrel would bring it back to just about on the recoil lug line.
 
May 15, 2011
100
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You can add the Spigot mount too.
They updated the rules to clarify this. People asked about bolt on attachments to the rails. So long as there is no end-user required "gunsmithing" the bolt on stuff seems to be kosher.
Cool. So the ARCA forend rail is GTG?
 
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