New Magnetospeed Mounting option

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#3
It definitely has my attention but I’ll be waiting for some of the follow up reviews and not be the first one to jump on it this time.

And yeah but the MPA doesn’t play with picatinny to my knowledge which is what I had invested in prior to the acra movement.
 

WiserPrecision

New Hide Member
Mar 26, 2018
7
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www.wiserprecision.com
#11
Does it work with the Sporter model or just with the V3?
We sell a Sporter compatible Version and a V3 compatible version. The differences between the Sporter and the V3 is the display mount given that the sizes and shapes of the displays between the Sporter and V3 are drastically different. There is also a different bracket that the bayonets attach too. Aside from those two pieces, the Sporter and the V3 versions are the same. You can also purchase those compatible parts separately if down the road you want be compatible with both the Sporter and the V3.
 

SupressYourself

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 26, 2017
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#12
I see it's easy to adjust the bayonet up and down, and of course for barrel length, but I'm not seeing how you might adjust it side-to-side, which would be useful for rails on the side of a handguard, or those that are not perfectly in line with the bore.
 
Feb 20, 2013
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#13
We sell a Sporter compatible Version and a V3 compatible version. The differences between the Sporter and the V3 is the display mount given that the sizes and shapes of the displays between the Sporter and V3 are drastically different. There is also a different bracket that the bayonets attach too. Aside from those two pieces, the Sporter and the V3 versions are the same. You can also purchase those compatible parts separately if down the road you want be compatible with both the Sporter and the V3.
Can you post a picture of the mount and the Sporter? That will help. Thanks!
 

WiserPrecision

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Mar 26, 2018
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#14
I see it's easy to adjust the bayonet up and down, and of course for barrel length, but I'm not seeing how you might adjust it side-to-side, which would be useful for rails on the side of a handguard, or those that are not perfectly in line with the bore.
Great question! To address this, we've designed the the slide mechanism to rotate about an axis that is concentric with the carbon tube. By rotating the assembly (and bayonet) around the carbon tube, you can adjust it's alignment for different picatinny offsets, e.g., picatinny side rails.
 

WiserPrecision

New Hide Member
Mar 26, 2018
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#17
Help me understand the relevance of this? Did your strap break? Are you trying to find the MV of a fully automatic M4 with a 100 round drum that would melt the strap?

:unsure:
The mount's primary purpose is not to protect the MagnetoSpeed from heat. It is designed to remove the Bayonet from the barrel of a firearm so that it does not experience a Point Of Impact (POI) shift. However, while shooting with a suppressor I have had good success running a cover on my can. This allowed me to get extended strings of fire without suffering from heat mirage in the scope.
 

ophious

Hallway Monitor
Jan 15, 2018
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#18
I'm just wondering honestly. I've been using mine for years on everything I can attach it to. Have yet to see any heat related issues. But I don't keep it attached the whole time as well. When doing load development, I usually am taking around 10 shots max before allowing it to cool. Interesting dilemma.
 
Aug 14, 2011
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#19
By mounting the magneto speed to the barrel you can change harmonics of the barrel thus changing either the group sizes, point of impact shifts or something else i cant of.

This turns into the magnetospeed into a poor mans Labradar.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#21
By mounting the magneto speed to the barrel you can change harmonics of the barrel thus changing either the group sizes, point of impact shifts or something else i cant of.

This turns into the magnetospeed into a poor mans Labradar.
Except this works.

I keep mine attached even over my suppressor without issues. I shot a string of 50 just to do an extended session to see what my SD’s and ES’s did. No issues.
 

WiserPrecision

New Hide Member
Mar 26, 2018
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3
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www.wiserprecision.com
#22
Except this works.

I keep mine attached even over my suppressor without issues. I shot a string of 50 just to do an extended session to see what my SD’s and ES’s did. No issues.
You have a point... My understanding is Frank's Labradar has gone out of commision on multiple occasions before. For those interested, Frank will be reviewing the Chrono Mount once he has time to do so. So, for those interested, stay tuned for his thoughts on the Chrono Mount.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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#24
It is not chassis specific. ARCA rails are made for just about every stock/chassis. Sawtooth rifles, Area 419, etc all make them for different chassis and stocks
True, but I have picatinny rails on all of my rifles and have no desire to change everything over to Arca at this point, nor do I have a spigot mount. This looks like a cleaner solution for my use. Your needs are obviously different.
 
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Mr.BR

Private
Oct 5, 2017
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#25
By mounting the magneto speed to the barrel you can change harmonics of the barrel thus changing either the group sizes, point of impact shifts or something else i cant of.

This turns into the magnetospeed into a poor mans Labradar.
Labradar is finicky as hell and barely 'range proof ', Magneto Speed is great alternative and with mount on the stock i take it over Lab radar any day.

For BR comp I used MagetoSpeed V3 mounted on joystick rest and measured some 100 or so guns in testing done on WC we hosted last year , Labradar would likely have been pain in the ass to use for such extensive test run if it would survuve at all being run hours at the time in high summer heat ,and might just give operator a raditaion posoning on top of all as well.

*have both Labradar and Magnetospeed V3 and Labradar is presently working only on internal battery as the port to plug in powerbank failed in couple of outings and seems to be the case for many other Labradar owners.
Labradar might be a good product in couple of years time when they fix some details and their app is least needed part.
 

V-Ref

Sergeant
Jul 28, 2008
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#26
LabRadar facts:

5 button pushes to turn it on and record a single shot.

2 button pushes to delete a shot.

$550 Chrono that requires use of one precision Burger King straw and 3" of masking tape to aim.

No way to go back and add additional shots to a recorded series.

No way to delete all recorded series so if you buy a used device with 137 individual series on it, you will have to delete each one individually one by one.

Can't use advanced data recording features without an SDHC card, that the device will take 30-40 minutes to format, so be sure to square that away on your laptop/desktop.

Bluetooth capable...but...no app or way to connect via Bluetooth.

Benchrest durable :)

Insert facepalm emoji

Who or what or was a shooter even involved with the user interface
 
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Mr.BR

Private
Oct 5, 2017
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#27
Good for you if your Labradar works as advertised , but like mentioned by many Labradar is quite buggy , from sesitivity in regards to muzzle pozzition ,work with ot without muzzle brakes and in the end badly build no real robustnes to the unit.Plenty of users can attest to that. Like said not jet the king of the hill that it could have been it it was a bit better made. So at present Magnetospeed remains a good alternative and the cheap Sporter model workd ok for many even tough its display with one button is quite POS in comparison to V3

Don't get me started on Benchrest ,it about a device that had to work round the clock for extended amount of time vs range session or two .

Your range sesions are probably ''lowdrag high speed full tactitard'' afairs requiring extreme ruggedness only Labradar can meet good for you.:rolleyes:
 
Mar 11, 2017
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#28
barrel harmonics are only a small part of the induced error of the bayonet attachment.

the aerodynamic friction and interference between hypersonic object (bullet) and raised ground plane (bayonet) pitches the bullet and will effect its POI. distance above the fixed surface, caliber, velocity, and the pitching angle of the projectiles path relative to the ground plane are all variables that effect the striking point of the projectile..

basic aerodynamics...

Screen Shot 2018-06-08 at 4.03.13 PM.png
from the research paper..


The projectile was discovered to experience a marked pitching moment, initially nose-downwards at the high end of type C reflection interactions, then more strongly nose-up with contin- ued decreasing ground clearance, as the pressure distribution over the rear of the projectile was increasingly distorted by the build up of high pressure behind the series of shock/ground interactions.

there is your definitive answer.... no more speculation required...
 
Jun 26, 2012
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#29
barrel harmonics are only a small part of the induced error of the bayonet attachment.

the aerodynamic friction and interference between hypersonic object (bullet) and raised ground plane (bayonet) pitches the bullet and will effect its POI. distance above the fixed surface, caliber, velocity, and the pitching angle of the projectiles path relative to the ground plane are all variables that effect the striking point of the projectile..

basic aerodynamics...

View attachment 6910947
from the research paper..


The projectile was discovered to experience a marked pitching moment, initially nose-downwards at the high end of type C reflection interactions, then more strongly nose-up with contin- ued decreasing ground clearance, as the pressure distribution over the rear of the projectile was increasingly distorted by the build up of high pressure behind the series of shock/ground interactions.

there is your definitive answer.... no more speculation required...
What are you saying here? That you can compare a 3/4” wide MS bayonet to a wall? No way in hell the bayonet itself changes the bullets path unless it’s strapped to the barrel and only then on thinner contour barrels. The change in path has nothing to do with pressure change of the shockwave, it’s the harmonics of the barrel.
 
Mar 11, 2017
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#30
@TacticalDillhole ... living up to your handle.. eh.. you must be one of those world is flat kinda guys where science and math were not strong points..

yes.. the surface will deflect the projectile ... the width is more than enough given the hight prescribed by magentospeed to be less than .3 and optimal .25" over the bayonet..
jets are in noticeable ground effect at half the wingspan.. that is noticeable.. measurable is higher than that...

this is also the reason you don't fly 2 jets extremely close as the air rushing between them create a very strong vacuum and pull them together...

been flying supersonic jets for 20 years and have more than a couple hours of advanced hypersonic aerodynamics and fluid dynamics under by belt..

but thanks .... so I guess welcome to hell..

oh.. and this is also measurable in brakes and suppressor exit apertures hence the .020 min clearance recommended on brakes for accuracy and the need for absolute centricity.. the bullet will deflect even if it doesn't strike the exit baffle if its not equally bounded ....

there .. learn something new every day
 
Likes: V-Ref
Mar 11, 2017
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#31
@TacticalDillhole

also.. if you even have one.. try mounting it a 6 o'clock.. groups move up.. on every rifle and caliber I have and the bigger faster the bullet the more the deflection.. especially if there is any angle on the bayonet.. now move it to 12 o'clock .. the groups go down... move the bayonet to 3 o'clock.. bullets strike left.. always away from the bayonet surface.. harmonics play a part.. but the largest shift is from aerodynamic interaction with the friction surface...
 
Jun 26, 2012
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#32
@TacticalDillhole ... living up to your handle.. eh.. you must be one of those world is flat kinda guys where science and math were not strong points..

yes.. the surface will deflect the projectile ... the width is more than enough given the hight prescribed by magentospeed to be less than .3 and optimal .25" over the bayonet..
jets are in noticeable ground effect at half the wingspan.. that is noticeable.. measurable is higher than that...

this is also the reason you don't fly 2 jets extremely close as the air rushing between them create a very strong vacuum and pull them together...

been flying supersonic jets for 20 years and have more than a couple hours of advanced hypersonic aerodynamics and fluid dynamics under by belt..

but thanks .... so I guess welcome to hell..

oh.. and this is also measurable in brakes and suppressor exit apertures hence the .020 min clearance recommended on brakes for accuracy and the need for absolute centricity.. the bullet will deflect even if it doesn't strike the exit baffle if its not equally bounded ....

there .. learn something new every day
Wow. That got personal real quick. I was just merely disagreeing the bayonet itself had any effect. But since you fly jets I guess you know it all when it comes to that stuff. I mean what do I know (😂😂)

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying I don’t agree. Show me the same images over the bayonet and then we will talk. But comparing the bayonet to a wall in my apparently ignorant opinion isn’t a fair comparison due to surface area.
 
Jun 26, 2012
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#33
@TacticalDillhole

also.. if you even have one.. try mounting it a 6 o'clock.. groups move up.. on every rifle and caliber I have and the bigger faster the bullet the more the deflection.. especially if there is any angle on the bayonet.. now move it to 12 o'clock .. the groups go down... move the bayonet to 3 o'clock.. bullets strike left.. always away from the bayonet surface.. harmonics play a part.. but the largest shift is from aerodynamic interaction with the friction surface...
I do have one. My groups don’t change because I don’t mount it to the barrel. It’s mounted on an adapter to my Handguard.
 
Mar 11, 2017
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#34
@TacticalDillhole

the width of the plate/wall/ground makes no difference.. the shockwave is 360 and its the wave directly beneath the bullet.. in theory the bullet shot over a sewing needle laying longways would even have an effect

I get a .8 to .9 MIL (3+ inches at 100) shift in my group away from my sporter bayonet on my heavy barrel 308. 1.25 straight taper to .925 a little less on my 6.5-284 norma, and about a 1moa shift in my ARs...

and its always away from the face of the bayonet, and since its a sport, and I can't dial out a slight tilt in on the tapered barrels.. the effect is magnified..

this is fact... this paper Transonic and supersonic ground effect aerodynamics was specifically done on bullets ... since jets and rocket sleds were too dangerous.. but facts are facts and the research is solid.
 
Jun 26, 2012
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#35
@TacticalDillhole

the width of the plate/wall/ground makes no difference.. the shockwave is 360 and its the wave directly beneath the bullet.. in theory the bullet shot over a sewing needle laying longways would even have an effect

I get a .8 to .9 MIL (3+ inches at 100) shift in my group away from my sporter bayonet on my heavy barrel 308. 1.25 straight taper to .925 a little less on my 6.5-284 norma, and about a 1moa shift in my ARs...

and its always away from the face of the bayonet, and since its a sport, and I can't dial out a slight tilt in on the tapered barrels.. the effect is magnified..

this is fact... this paper Transonic and supersonic ground effect aerodynamics was specifically done on bullets ... since jets and rocket sleds were too dangerous.. but facts are facts and the research is solid.
Roger that.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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#36
Hmmm. I consistently get .1 up and .1 left shift at 100 yards, with my .260 and bayo attached. My .338 exhibits zero shift every time with 285g promos. Please do the math for me so that I may understand and be enlightened.
 
Mar 11, 2017
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#37
@lash I have not done someone elses homework since 1984 and I can assure you she was alot hotter .. that said

first.. the paper is not my research, but was required reading, it s peer reviewed and I believe the data to be sound .. and again, pilots feel this ground effect on every takeoff and landing.. its a fact..

now to the differences from the research paper to magneto application..

first and foremost.. there are many more vairables at play than the paper takes into account

the surface is fixed and not moving.. they did do studies with angles and when the bullet was fired into rising surface the projeclite nose up rotation was assentuated.

it also doesnt take into account barrel whip and barrel harmonics, and the forces of the expanding gasses that accompany the bullet from the muzzle..

my hypothisis is this.. and its untested and unresearched

1 .. loads where the bullet is launching in the optimal barrel time where the muzzle angle is rising would be bringing the bayonet closer to the bullet at it was flying over it.. increasing the effect of POI climb.. loads where the muzzle angle where whiping low, would conversly pull the bayonet surface away from the bullet as it passes over, showing little to no POI shif on the projectile as the 'ground plate' is sloping away.

2. dump gas volume and pressure is differrnt for every load., barrel lenght etc.. also effected by brakes and cans that redirect or slow and cool the muzzle blast.. possibly explaining why most that shoot the system with those devices tend to see less of an effect and that is the case in my own AR as it has a 3 port lateral brake.

3. external ballistics are still in many cases magic as they are hard and expensive to study and effected by so many variables

I can say that with regard to magnetospeed many see the same movement of group as the bayonet is rotated... with the group alwasy moving away from the surface of the bayonet.

also, many have reported that even after buying off-barrel adapters of various designs, mostly for AR platforms, they still see a shift.. so it cant just be barrel harmonics and suface aerodynamic friction is a proven force acting on said bodies and fits the theory..


here you can see clearly that at a height of .75 of projectile diameter the shockwave reflections are interfering with the body, and the tail is loosing lift pointing the bullet up, at 1.77x diameter the reflection passes behind the projectile
Screen Shot 2018-06-09 at 9.52.41 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-09 at 10.02.59 AM.png

expanded view of hight to diameter distance and effect of lift/drag at the boattail
 
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Aug 14, 2011
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#39
so what your saying someone needs to calculate the clearance needed for the bullet and the sensitivity of the MS to truely make this the best thing since metaplat pointing.
 
Mar 11, 2017
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#40
@Eric32

I think like just about everything that I have learned in long range shooting, and aerodynamics.. and in the military in general.. the answer is ' it depends'

unfortunately there are just so many variables that effect internal and external ballistics that even if we took barrel harmonics out of the equation... as far as the weight of the magneto speed by attaching it off barrel, those harmonics are still in the barrel and will effect the launch angle of the bullet just as it does with no MS attached at all...

add

muzzle gasses
nearly infinite bullet shapes effecting mach cone shape
infinite velocitys etc
mounting deviation / angle, tension, and rotation
rifle recoil changing the position of the surface as the bullet flies over
etc etc

but yes.. if the MS was designed to reliably record (sense with accuracy the bullets passage over the 2 sensors) at an elevated height that was likely at least 1.7x its diameter .. it MIGHT fully negate this effect...

surface angle / at least in my case, is probably why my shift is greater than those that are using V3 that are level.. again.. I have done no extensive testing here.. but having experienced in flight and studied ground effect.. it was just common sense to me that these forces are at play here... to what extent, how to mitigate, don't really have that kind of time in my life and don't have access to the equipment the university in australia threw at this.

however.. without this type of experimentation .. no DEFINITIVE answer can be given to your answer.
 

SLG

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 2, 2009
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#41
I've been using a magneto speed since they became available. Mine have always been barrel mounted and always push my rounds slightly higher. What squib-load is saying is exactly what was explained to me when I first started using them, but by who, I don't remember. Doesn't mean its true, but I believe it is, and I'm not really qualified to argue it one way or the other. My group shift is much much smaller than his though. More like .2 or so, depending on the specific gun/caliber.

The barrel strap setup is pretty far from ideal, but it mostly works, and since I only keep it on to record a short shot string for velocity calculations, it works just fine. You do have to constantly check to make sure it isn't moving away from the barrel, or into its path. If the strap was more easily tightened down, and to smaller diameters, that would be great. Too bad the company is very difficult to deal with.

The various rail mount options seem like good solutions for AR's and such, but beyond that, they seem like just extra stuff to me. Magneto speed also makes an inexpensive pic mount, though I have not yet tried it. Anyone have any experience with it?
 
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#42
@SLG I am pretty sure that way back over at arfcom and other ar specific boards... people have gone out and spent the money on 'off barrel' mounts just to find out that the vertical shift away from the bayonet is still present.. POI may have changed between on barrel and off... but a shift was still present and as most people report its always away from the face.. i.e. rotating the bayonet and the impact group follows 180 deg out.. fully supporting the documented results of this study and I think I have clearly shown how, in some cases, people don't observe it at all .. but as far as I can gather.. the percentage of MS uses that see zero group shift is a very very small percent.

i don't shoot my SPR AR for absolute precision .. its just not that kind of platform.. most of my observations are with heavy barrel high caliber rifles
 
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#43
what I am trying to impose on folks is that in the shooting community.. when bullets to funny things.. everyone always points to barrel harmonics.. but here I can clearly show that bullet interaction with nearby surfaces is a documented measurable force.

it explains bullet shifts on barrels with suppressors and brakes that are not perfectly concentric or perhaps have exit apertures that are a bit too narrow.. etc.. sure harmonics change any time something is put on the end of a barrel.. but this explains why there is still a shift when its NOT on the barrel
 

SLG

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 2, 2009
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#44
So, I looked over all the vids and info I could find on the Wiser product. It looks like a genuine improvement in mounting, and I hope to try one out at some point.

My questions/concerns with it: How does the slider piece lock down? It looks like it just needs to be pushed around to get the height and angle you want. If so, wouldn't recoil possibly shift it too? One big advantage of the MS chrony is that it can go in your range bag/pack very easily, and is then always available. Adding a 30" bar seems to negate this benefit. I do like the idea of keeping it all mounted up for home use and convenience though. Finally, the two big issues that I saw. Why is it not compatible with angled stocks? Obviously you'd have to have enough room to slide the bar back, so that the bayonet wasn't at an upward angle in front of the muzzle. Is this not possible? And...why is it not compatible with cans? The FAQ's say not to put the bayonet in front of a can. How else are you supposed to get the velocity? I do this all the time with my standard MS and a can.

What am I missing here?
 
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Mar 11, 2017
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#45
oberseration from someone over on ar15.com --- no me

https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/Labradar-magnetospeed/10-6248/&page=2

Today I tried the Magnetospeed at 3:00, 6:00, 9:00, 12:00 and the point of impact shift was clearly related to the rotation of the bayonet.
This suggests that the point of impact change is not from harmonics but from the bullet flying close to the surface of the sensor.

From 3:00 to 9:00 there was a shift of 1.18 moa horizontal(away from the bayonet)
From 6:00 to 12:00 there was a shift of 0.14 moa horizontal


From 3:00 to 9:00 there was a shift of 0.25 moa vertical
From 6:00 to 12:00 there was a shift of 1.24 moa vertical(away from the bayonet)

From center of POA(actual zero poi)without bayonet

3:00- left 0.45moa.... up 0.33moa shift
9:00-right 0.73moa.... up 0.57moa shift


6:00- rt 0.22moa.... up 1.23moa shift
12:00 rt 0.37moa..down 0.01moa shift
 

Bradu

Full Member
Aug 24, 2011
1,596
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IL
#46
oberseration from someone over on ar15.com --- no me

https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/Labradar-magnetospeed/10-6248/&page=2

Today I tried the Magnetospeed at 3:00, 6:00, 9:00, 12:00 and the point of impact shift was clearly related to the rotation of the bayonet.
This suggests that the point of impact change is not from harmonics but from the bullet flying close to the surface of the sensor.

From 3:00 to 9:00 there was a shift of 1.18 moa horizontal(away from the bayonet)
From 6:00 to 12:00 there was a shift of 0.14 moa horizontal


From 3:00 to 9:00 there was a shift of 0.25 moa vertical
From 6:00 to 12:00 there was a shift of 1.24 moa vertical(away from the bayonet)

From center of POA(actual zero poi)without bayonet

3:00- left 0.45moa.... up 0.33moa shift
9:00-right 0.73moa.... up 0.57moa shift


6:00- rt 0.22moa.... up 1.23moa shift
12:00 rt 0.37moa..down 0.01moa shift

I think most agree that it's not the harmonics that cause the poi shift. Watch a video in slow motion of a barrel when the gun is being fired. That is the harmonics that people talk about and is the reason they dont want something attached to the barrel when doing load development.
 

WiserPrecision

New Hide Member
Mar 26, 2018
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www.wiserprecision.com
#48
So, I looked over all the vids and info I could find on the Wiser product. It looks like a genuine improvement in mounting, and I hope to try one out at some point.

My questions/concerns with it: How does the slider piece lock down? It looks like it just needs to be pushed around to get the height and angle you want. If so, wouldn't recoil possibly shift it too? One big advantage of the MS chrony is that it can go in your range bag/pack very easily, and is then always available. Adding a 30" bar seems to negate this benefit. I do like the idea of keeping it all mounted up for home use and convenience though. Finally, the two big issues that I saw. Why is it not compatible with angled stocks? Obviously you'd have to have enough room to slide the bar back, so that the bayonet wasn't at an upward angle in front of the muzzle. Is this not possible? And...why is it not compatible with cans? The FAQ's say not to put the bayonet in front of a can. How else are you supposed to get the velocity? I do this all the time with my standard MS and a can.

What am I missing here?
SLG,

Hopefully I can answer your questions!

1) The slider is held in place by friction provided by the strap when the thumb nut is tightened. With our prototype models we have not experienced any shift from recoil, even under extended strings of fire.

2) It is not currently compatible with angled stocks because under the current design, the bayonet would not be parallel to the axis of the bore, and this would result in consistent, but inaccurate readings. This compatibility is something we hope to develop in the future.

3) It IS compatible with Cans! We have actually had good success using this mount with a Soccom can and a MAD cover on it (there is a photo of this setup on the product page). The FAQ that you are referring to is specifically directed to the MagnetoSpeed Sporter. To which we reply: "The geometry of the bayonet still limits its use, unfortunately, so it depends. See MagnetoSpeed's fitment guide for more information." "We do not recommend our users extend the bayonet in front of the suppressor, doing so can increase the risk of bayonet strikes." This was meant to communicate that the user should not extend the entire bayonet assembly in front of the can as this could potentially increase the risk of bayonet strikes. From slow motion footage of the mount in use, there is no evidence to suggest a bayonet strike would happen, but for liability reasons and because we have been asked specifically about it, we do not recommend users do that.

We will rewrite that FAQ to be a little more clear.

I hope that helps.
 
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