Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

jhunter

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So who is to blame? We have a bad trigger, bad batch of primers, and the PRS. Which one are we pointing the finger at?
 

Sheldon N

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All stages I received a Zero. Rules state that if ND happens and you know where the bullet went, its a zero.
I believe under either NRL or PRS rules (club match or national match) any ND is a match DQ regardless of whether you know where the bullet went or whether it was caused by equipment. No second or third chances.
 
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ThePretzel

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I believe under either NRL or PRS rules (club match or national match) any ND is a match DQ regardless of whether you know where the bullet went or whether it was caused by equipment. No second or third chances.
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/prs_rules.pdf

Rule 1.3.7 is written as follows:

1.3.7
If it can be established that the cause of the discharge is due to a broken or defective part of the firearm, the competitor has not committed any safety infraction in this Section, and a disqualification will not be invoked, but the competitor's scores for that stage will be zero. The firearm must be immediately presented for inspection to the Match Director or his delegate, who will inspect the firearm and carry out any tests necessary to establish that a broken or defective part caused the discharge. A competitor may not later appeal a disqualification for an accidental discharge due to a broken or defective part if they fail to present the firearm for inspection prior to leaving the course of fire.
If the rifle was inspected and the negligent discharge was found to be a result of defective equipment, then the appropriate penalty is a zero score for the stage it occurred on.

That said, there is something to be said about continuing to compete with a weapon that is known to have defective equipment. It seems like this is a point not addressed anywhere in the PRS rulebook, but I think it should probably be modified to require that the defective part be replaced (or the entire firearm replaced, either or would be sufficient) before the shooter is allowed to continue shooting further stages in the match.
 

ToddM

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If it was me, if the guy had an ND and coped to it, and it was not an equipment malfunction, DQ for the match, if it can be proven to be equipment you get a chance to fix it, 0 for the stage, happens again your match is done. However, because not only did he have an ND and not cope to it, but he took a point knowingly cheating, I'd ban him for at least a year, and if I could prove anyone on his squad saw it and didn't say anything, they'd get the hammer too.

Beyond that, it's time for min. trigger weights, these 2-8oz triggers on PRS guns/courses is ridiculous. 2lbs at a minimum, drop test and trigger weight test them before the match starts. if people can't SAFELY complete a stage in the time limit, the time limit should be increased. I get wanting people to expediently shoot their target, this isn't golf, but it's gotten to the point where newer shooters are too rushed to complete a stage safety. If you need another way to seperate the pack by performance simply but an A and B zone with different point values on the targets. Add in more challenge targets where you can gain significant points or LOSE them if you miss. That will fix the issue of 1 point dropping anyone 3-4 places. After all it's PRECISION Rifle Shooting, not SPEED Rifle Shooting, accuracy over speed.

Having shot many types of shooting competition over the decades, some at a national level, trap, skeet, field archery, USPSA etc. over the years you get 2 options. Either you have enough range officers to monitor scoring AND safety (and they cannot be squad members/competitors or buddies lie for each other, seen it for years), and the hammer comes down at every infraction, or you get cheating/safety problems like PRS has now. It's rampant in 3D archery and has been for years, because there is no oversight.

The ONLY way to help ensure this doesn't happen, is to have safety officers at each stage that can monitor the shooter while shooting and bring the hammer down on infractions, and they can't be their buddies on the same or next squad. You will still have accidents, but people will be much more careful and safe.
 

bschneiderheinze

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This might end up being longer than the motivational pic thread. This thread has caused MDs in my state to start requiring Chamber Flags and give long talks about negligent discharges. Not a bad thing especially for new shooters but I hate chamber flags I use a bolt block
 
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bschneiderheinze

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If it was me, if the guy had an ND and coped to it, and it was not an equipment malfunction, DQ for the match, if it can be proven to be equipment you get a chance to fix it, 0 for the stage, happens again your match is done. However, because not only did he have an ND and not cope to it, but he took a point knowingly cheating, I'd ban him for at least a year, and if I could prove anyone on his squad saw it and didn't say anything, they'd get the hammer too.

Beyond that, it's time for min. trigger weights, these 2-8oz triggers on PRS guns/courses is ridiculous. 2lbs at a minimum, drop test and trigger weight test them before the match starts. if people can't SAFELY complete a stage in the time limit, the time limit should be increased. I get wanting people to expediently shoot their target, this isn't golf, but it's gotten to the point where newer shooters are too rushed to complete a stage safety. If you need another way to seperate the pack by performance simply but an A and B zone with different point values on the targets. Add in more challenge targets where you can gain significant points or LOSE them if you miss. That will fix the issue of 1 point dropping anyone 3-4 places. After all it's PRECISION Rifle Shooting, not SPEED Rifle Shooting, accuracy over speed.

Having shot many types of shooting competition over the decades, some at a national level, trap, skeet, field archery, USPSA etc. over the years you get 2 options. Either you have enough range officers to monitor scoring AND safety (and they cannot be squad members/competitors or buddies lie for each other, seen it for years), and the hammer comes down at every infraction, or you get cheating/safety problems like PRS has now. It's rampant in 3D archery and has been for years, because there is no oversight.

The ONLY way to help ensure this doesn't happen, is to have safety officers at each stage that can monitor the shooter while shooting and bring the hammer down on infractions, and they can't be their buddies on the same or next squad. You will still have accidents, but people will be much more careful and safe.
[/QUOTE
Me and my son both shoot 8 oz timney 2 stage triggers and they will pass any test you want to put them through. The problem is with people that close there bolt before on target and put their finger on the trigger before there ready to shoot. We have never had NDs. It comes down to fundamentals if a 14 year old that’s been shooting PRS less than year (he’s shot close to 20 matches) can do it then we shouldn’t be getting penalized for it by setting trigger lb limits. I agree with kicking out the idiots that are sending rounds off range but just because you were in the same squad and may or may not have seen it that’s ridiculous. I help out about 50% of the time the rest of the time I’m getting ready loading mags checking dope and looking over my rifle
 
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ToddM

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No one is penalized if everyone has to play by the same rule, if everyone has to shoot a 2lb+ trigger, there's no penalty. That's like saying the 3200fps limit is a penalty because you want to shoot something faster, as long as everyone has to follow the rule, it's not a penalty.

Hair triggers are a safety issue, period. It only takes a tiny movement to send a round very far off target at these distances, it doesn't have to be someone loading a round before they are getting into position, or shoving a finger in a trigger before they are in position. I've seen guys follow all the rules, not load a round or get their finger in the trigger before on target, and something happens (dust in the eyes, wasp sting, etc.) and takes them off target and their hair trigger sends a round off target. It happens, it just hasn't happened to you yet, can it happen with a 3lb trigger, sure but way less likely. We should not be using benchrest weight triggers in such an uncontrolled environment.

I can't count the weekend warriors that I've seen with light single action handgun triggers that swear they are trained and ultrasafe and the first round out of their holster in a shoot house with a little stress goes into the floor or ceiling. Sooner or later something happens that gets everyone out of the comfort zone, when it does, a hair trigger makes the odds of an ND much higher.

Safety is EVERYONE's responsibility, if you see someone being unsafe, and don't say anything YOU are the problem and should be penalized. Again I said if anyone in the squad saw it and didn't say anything penalize them as well, I did not say penalize the whole squad just because they were there.
 
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bschneiderheinze

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No one is penalized if everyone has to play by the same rule, if everyone has to shoot a 2lb+ trigger, there's no penalty. That's like saying the 3200fps limit is a penalty because you want to shoot something faster, as long as everyone has to follow the rule, it's not a penalty.

Hair triggers are a safety issue, period. It only takes a tiny movement to send a round very far off target at these distances, it doesn't have to be someone loading a round before they are getting into position, or shoving a finger in a trigger before they are in position. I've seen guys follow all the rules, not load a round or get their finger in the trigger before on target, and something happens (dust in the eyes, wasp sting, etc.) and takes them off target and their hair trigger sends a round off target. It happens, it just hasn't happened to you yet, can it happen with a 3lb trigger, sure but way less likely. We should not be using benchrest weight triggers in such an uncontrolled environment.

I can't count the weekend warriors that I've seen with light single action handgun triggers that swear they are trained and ultrasafe and the first round out of their holster in a shoot house with a little stress goes into the floor or ceiling. Sooner or later something happens that gets everyone out of the comfort zone, when it does, a hair trigger makes the odds of an ND much higher.

Safety is EVERYONE's responsibility, if you see someone being unsafe, and don't say anything YOU are the problem and should be penalized. Again I said if anyone in the squad saw it and didn't say anything penalize them as well, I did not say penalize the whole squad just because they were there.
Obviously you don’t shoot PRS because you don’t know what your talking about. It’s not an uncontrolled environment when you follow the procedures properly. Just because some weekend warriors are coming in and don’t know what the hell they are doing doesn’t mean we need a bunch of new rules should be added. It would be rediculous testing everyone’s trigger pull anyway and the same thing could happen in benchrest. It won’t happen to us because are rifles and triggers are safe and scopes are on the target before the bolt is closed. Impossible to get a ND that way.
 

Tx_Aggie

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Obviously you don’t shoot PRS because you don’t know what your talking about. It’s not an uncontrolled environment when you follow the procedures properly. Just because some weekend warriors are coming in and don’t know what the hell they are doing doesn’t mean we need a bunch of new rules should be added. It would be rediculous testing everyone’s trigger pull anyway and the same thing could happen in benchrest. It won’t happen to us because are rifles and triggers are safe and scopes are on the target before the bolt is closed. Impossible to get a ND that way.
I think it's worth pointing out that any sort of absolutist statement is usually false.

You stated that it's impossible to have an ND if you wait to close the bolt until you're on scope and on target.

That suggests one of two things:

  • You feel that an accidentally fired shot isn't an ND if the rifle is pointed at the target.
  • You feel that it's impossible to ND if you wait until you're on scope to close the bolt (as you've said) because you haven't personally seen it happen.

This sort of ND does happen, but it's easy to miss if you're not closely watching a shooter.

For example, a shooter was DQ'd for an ND at club match at Peacemaker in WV a year or two ago. He built a position (kneeling behind prop, rifle on a game changer bag), got on scope, closed the bolt, and when he went to grip the rifle with his firing hand he gripped too high, inserting his middle finger into the trigger guard, and accidentally fired. A best-case ND for sure, but still an ND.

Stress/time pressure and muscle memory can do some funny things.
 
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ToddM

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You can test triggers just as fast as you can chrono guns, and that's done at matches. Benchrest is a completely different environment, people take tons of time to set up the exact same rock solid position, there's no moving, no requiring shooters to build a position on multiple unstable ground/rests under significant time pressure and the gun is basically locked into two super heavy rests on a concrete table.

If you think those two shooting environments have the same level of control, it's not me that doesn't know what I'm talking about.
 

davsco

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You can test triggers just as fast as you can chrono guns, and that's done at matches.
setting trigger weight limits is akin to gun control (take away guns and crime will go away) or speed limiters on cars (limit to 55mph and accidents will go away). it's up to the shooter to not set their trigger lighter than they can handle. and it's up to us to dq shooters that prove they can't handle their light triggers.
 

ToddM

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setting trigger weight limits is akin to gun control (take away guns and crime will go away) or speed limiters on cars (limit to 55mph and accidents will go away).
But a 55mph speed limit does REDUCE accidents, it won't eliminate them, just like a trigger weight rule would. Just imagine how many car accidents we'd have if you let big ego distracted "I'm too skilled to have an accident" drivers whatever speed they "felt" they were competent to.
 

Alpine 338

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IMG_20190602_104950026~2.jpg

You guys can argue this for centuries, but until you come to terms, understand, identify, and accept the core causes to these problems, nothing will be fixed.

For example, light trigger weights are something that is opinionated, and we might as well have a rule that everyone has to run a single stage trigger set at 5.5-lbs to fix the problem.

For those unfamiliar with Safe Start, it's a training program started by a consulting firm out of Canada. It has become a safety standard in industry, manufacturing, utilities, etc. The fundamentals apply to everything that humans do, from driving down the road, to mowing the lawn. Using it to see the problems in PRS, NRL type of matches is easy to do.

Rushing = 90-sec time limits to move, and engage four targets, from three positions, shooting 12-rounds.

Frustration = I'm frustrated because I'm timing out, or I'm missing targets because of this stupid wobbly barricade.

Fatigue = We had to show up to the match at 0630, I didn't get much sleep last night, there are 15-stages, and it's 95-deg outside.

Complacency = I didn't clear/check my chamber, and have a live round in it, now it's cased and I'm sweeping everyone on the range because a cased weapon is totally safe.

Until safety is truly addressed, unsafe things will continue to occure.
 
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Cjwise5

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This might end up being longer than the motivational pic thread. This thread has caused MDs in my state to start requiring Chamber Flags and give long talks about negligent discharges. Not a bad thing especially for new shooters but I hate chamber flags I use a bolt block
This makes me happy. I’ve been hearing about a lot of positive changes taking place, which of course was my intent in showing the ND video in the first place. 👍🏻
 

gasrat

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Was at a match this past Saturday where an ND took place. Wasn't my squad, but none the less, happen the next stage beside of us. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the ND or how it happen. However, as soon as it happen, the first words I heard from the RO and match directors was, "your done", as meaning the shooters day was over. Alpine 338's comment about a standardized weight trigger is an interesting one, but what weight would be acceptable? Personally, I don't think it needs to be 5.5 lbs, but that is just my thoughts on it.
 
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Alpine 338

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Was at a match this past Saturday where an ND took place. Wasn't my squad, but none the less, happen the next stage beside of us. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the ND or how it happen. However, as soon as it happen, the first words I heard from the RO and match directors was, "your done", as meaning the shooters day was over. Alpine 338's comment about a standardized weight trigger is an interesting one, but what weight would be acceptable? Personally, I don't think it needs to be 5.5 lbs, but that is just my thoughts on it.
I was being sarcastic about the 5.5-lbs. I personally believe, as long as the rifle passes a drop test, than any trigger is acceptable. If it goes off as an AD/ND, then it's on the shooter.
 
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kthomas

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I was being sarcastic about the 5.5-lbs. I personally believe, as long as the rifle passes a drop test, than any trigger is acceptable. If it goes off as an AD/ND, then it's on the shooter.
Agreed.

People need to be held accountable for any round that leaves their rifle. What their trigger weight is should be up to the shooter. If it results in a ND/AD, then hold them accountable (whether it's the trigger or poor discipline) and DQ their ass.

People won't change their habits until they are forced to through accountability. But I don't believe minimum trigger weights is the answer. More accountability definitely is.
 

gasrat

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Agreed.

People need to be held accountable for any round that leaves their rifle. What their trigger weight is should be up to the shooter. If it results in a ND/AD, then hold them accountable (whether it's the trigger or poor discipline) and DQ their ass.

People won't change their habits until they are forced to through accountability. But I don't believe minimum trigger weights is the answer. More accountability definitely is.
It would add more time to a day, but what is your guys thoughts on somewhat of a tech time? With that I mean, just like in drag racing, your car is inspected by a tech to see if it is safe to go down the track. If there was a set of steps taken to check trigger stability, that may be an option. Maybe have the following performed by match directors. Again, I know it would add time to a match, but I'd be fine with that extra time to know someone isn't walking around with a trigger that could be set off accidentally because it's too light.

* Open and close the bolt forcefully to check for slam fires
* Hit the side of the stock or chassis with the palm of a hand or a non marring object to check it that way
* Tap the butt stock against a hard surface

Those are the three things I have heard people do and I've done myself to check trigger weight safety. Some people may say, "your not doing my pretty rifle like that". To that I say, if you don't want that done to your rifle to check safety for not only you, but other shooters around you, why are you shooting it in a match because chances are, if your match shooting it, the beats and bangs it takes during the match are more than what a trigger check would be.

Again, I'm just throwing ideas out there. I mean boxing gloves are checked, most every race car is checked before a race. Hell, even a basketball is checked for air pressure before it's allowed in a game. So why couldn't trigger weights be checked before matches with similar things like bumps, bangs and forceful bolt closing like they experience during a match? How much time would it take to perform the three checks or something similar above? Not very long. And even then, let the rifle owner carry out the required checks in front a match associate if they are one of those who don't like others handling their rifles. Again, just some ideas.
 
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kthomas

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It would add more time to a day, but what is your guys thoughts on somewhat of a tech time? With that I mean, just like in drag racing, your car is inspected by a tech to see if it is safe to go down the track. If there was a set of steps taken to check trigger stability, that may be an option. Maybe have the following performed by match directors. Again, I know it would add time to a match, but I'd be fine with that extra time to know someone isn't walking around with a trigger that could be set off accidentally because it's too light.

* Open and close the bolt forcefully to check for slam fires
* Hit the side of the stock or chassis with a non marring object to check it that way
* Tap the butt stock against a hard surface

Those are the three things I know people do to check trigger weights. Some people may say, "your not doing my pretty rifle like that". To that I say, if you don't want that done to your rifle to check safety for not only you, but other shooters around you, why are you shooting it in a match because chances are, if your match shooting it, the beats and bangs it takes during the match are more than what a trigger check would be.

Again, I'm just throwing ideas out there. I mean boxing gloves are checked, most every race car is checked before a race. Hell, even a basketball is checked for air pressure before it's allowed in a game. So why couldn't trigger weights be checked before matches with similar things like bumps, bangs and forceful bolt closing like they experience during a match? How much time would it take to perform the three checks or something similar above? Not very long. And even then, let the rifle owner carry out the required checks in front a match associate if they are one of those who don't like others handling their rifles. Again, just some ideas.
I don't think it's feasible.

There's barely even enough people to run the matches as they are now, let alone with adding a new technical requirement to test every competitors rifles.

It's a nice thought, but since it's just a weekend warrior hobby, the resources just aren't there to run it like an actual sport that generates revenue (boxing, racing, etc).
 
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generalzip

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Just enforce the existing rules before you start worrying about adding new rules or policies. You guys sound like liberals trying to make new gun laws when the issue is the lack of enforcement of the current laws on the books. After reading this thread I feel like a new shooter would think coming to a PRS match is like showing up in the Wild West. The picture painted is not reality. Accidents happen, but in my experience shooting around the south and south east, these matches are very safe. Again, just enforce the current rules and you’ll see behavior and equipment changes in time.
 

ToddM

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The problem is once the ND happens, it's too late, and any PRS penalty might be a drop in the bucket to the consequences of that round getting away. I guarantee you if you track ND's to trigger weight there's a direct correlation between lighter triggers and rate of ND's.

As someone who has worked around things that glow, it doesn't matter HOW high the penalty (including your own slow death by radiation poisoning) some people will not be proactive about even their own safety much less someone else's. You will ALWAYS get better results promoting safety through limiting/eliminating unsafe practices/equipment AND stiff penalties than you will just in penalties. At best consequences stay in other shooters mind for a stage or two, maybe an event and something to chat about during the week with their buddies laughing about how stupid someone was and how it would never happen to their overtrained operator sevles.

Ego is huge in competition and most think they are too skilled and trained to ever have an ND, we've seen that attitude all over this thread. I can't count the number of times I've seen a shooter at a range or shoot imitate that scene from Black Hawk Down "Well, this is my safety sir" while flexing their trigger finger. Unfortunately those are the idiots you have to set the rules for.

I've seen this in various shooting sports for decades, it doesn't matter how much you talk about it, it doesn't even matter if it's a match DQ penalty, the reality is even a careless shooter might still never have a ND, and as a result it breeds complacency by its very nature. Trap shooting is a great example, shooters that develop a flinch gravitate toward "release" triggers (pull to set, fires on release) the problem is these triggers by their very nature beg for ND's, and they happen at almost every major tournament at a MUCH higher rate than pull triggers. Thankfully birdshot doesn't go very far so there's no danger to neighbors, no clubs getting shut down for it, and the nature of trap shooting means few people are ever in the lethal line of fire. I've seen no less than a 100 of these incidents first hand in many years, and that's just as a competitor, while I've seen less than 5 with a normal trigger. You can get banned for too many ND's in trap, but the reality is no one ever has that many, usually it's shoved under the carpet, happens at a small shoot, no one is tracking them to find out, so the rule has no teeth and there is deterrent, and the problem continues.

Not to mention that if an "important" shooter does this, and we've all seen it, they are treated different.

The only way I've seen this successfully mitigated is with rules that address not only mandate equipment safety, but enough officials to monitor and enforce them.
 
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gasrat

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I don't think it's feasible.

There's barely even enough people to run the matches as they are now, let alone with adding a new technical requirement to test every competitors rifles.

It's a nice thought, but since it's just a weekend warrior hobby, the resources just aren't there to run it like an actual sport that generates revenue (boxing, racing, etc).
PRS may not generate revenue for a venue like boxing, racing, etc. But it's generating revenue for a lot of companies who offer rifles, optics, shooting accessories and the like. Plenty of revenue.

Having said that, I work in a field that I'm pretty much lied to many times a day. Not saying PRS competitors are a bunch of gun toting liers, but in this day and time, not everyone is honest. I know, it's unbelievable isn't it? LOL.

So even if a trigger tech time was set, what's to keep a shooter from setting their trigger heavy before it is checked at a tech station, then after passing such a check, walk back over to their sitting area and back the trigger back down to where it was at originally if it's externally adjustable. So really, even if what I talked about was feasible, there is a way around it, just like in about any other rule or regulation.
 
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ToddM

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They way they address that issue in racing is simply to randomize the check, it takes 10 seconds to check a trigger weight, let RO's pick someone out once and awhile and check them mid match, or as someone finishes the match. If someone has an ND, the policy simply becomes the competitor steps away from the rifle and it's checked for safety and trigger weight. A rifle that mechanically malfunctions results in a 0 on the stage, if it's shooter induced it's a minimum of a shoot DQ.

The reality is if you want more safety in PRS, you need to find a way to get a safety officer watching shooters at each stage.
 
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Alpine 338

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At Compition Dynamics matches, they have a safety period during match check in, where the weapon is checked for safe operation and properly functioning safety, but as said above, the trigger can be "set" back after the inspection.

The easiest, and quickest way to address this, have one stage in the middle of day one. As you approach the firing line, you hand your rifle to an RO, they do the bump/drop test, check for safe operation, etc. If it fails, you're out of the match. Also, at the firing line, you have a chronograph set up as part of the stage, shooting though a hole, etc., and if you're over the speed limit, you're out.
 
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gasrat

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At Compition Dynamics matches, they have a safety period during match check in, where the weapon is checked for safe operation and properly functioning safety, but as said above, the trigger can be "set" back after the inspection.

The easiest, and quickest way to address this, have one stage in the middle of day one. As you approach the firing line, you hand your rifle to an RO, they do the bump/drop test, check for safe operation, etc. If it fails, you're out of the match. Also, at the firing line, you have a chronograph set up as part of the stage, shooting though a hole, etc., and if you're over the speed limit, you're out.
As for chronograph, same with ASA. When I shot events, it wasn't uncommon for staff to pull shooters out of the line and chrono them on the spot to make sure their setup with within the allowed speed. As for your thoughts of selecting a shooter on a stage or after a stage, doing spot checks on rifles, that is a great idea. That way, people would not know if it's coming and would be able to game a known check by weighting their triggers down for the check, then backing them off after they are checked.

As for what generalzip mentioned, I'm in agreement that a sport doesn't need to be weighed down by rules and regulations and enforcing what is already on the books should be done. But I mean, come on. How much trouble would it be for spot checks, which take no more than 15 or 20 seconds to be done if it can potentially keep other shooters out of harms way? Oh, and by the way, the ND that happen this past weekend was at an event in the SE region, so it can happen anywhere.
 

lht645

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I've done high risk work my whole life, ignorance and complacency are the two things that scare me the most, Ignorance with the new guys and complacency with the old salts (myself included). I know on the day there is a tragedy, everyone is going to want the 5 minutes that could have prevented it back as a do over.

"Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda" wont mean shit then.
 

bschneiderheinze

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I guess you guys advocating trigger weight rules are are anti 2nd amdenment. It’s not people that kill people it’s guns that kill people. A two stage 8oz trigger is by no means unsafe and people use less on hunting rifles but go ahead and advocate punishment for the entire group because of the behavior of few.
 

RoterJager

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I guess you guys advocating trigger weight rules are are anti 2nd amdenment. It’s not people that kill people it’s guns that kill people. A two stage 8oz trigger is by no means unsafe and people use less on hunting rifles but go ahead and advocate punishment for the entire group because of the behavior of few.

I couldn't care less about trigger weights, it's up to the MDs and series directors if they want to implement whatever they want. After all it's their business.

Maybe you have something constructive to add to this thread? Maybe a suggestion to help improve safety?
 
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bschneiderheinze

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I couldn't care less about trigger weights, it's up to the MDs and series directors if they want to implement whatever they want. After all it's their business.

Maybe you have something constructive to add to this thread? Maybe a suggestion to help improve safety?
You specifically commented on the safety of my triggers and if you look back you will see the person that started this post quoted me about how the safety culture is changing. So you can to hell. I’ve even contributed pictures such as this which is how rifles should be staged. This entire thread is a bunch of weekend warriors that probably don’t even shoot PRS throwing in there opinions on something they know nothing about.
 

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RoterJager

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My post wasn't about your triggers specifically. It seems you're making a lot of assumptions about people. Many of us in here shoot a lot of matches, one and/or two day, we just don't go around flaunting it and using it to put others we know nothing about, down.

Your staging idea is a great idea. I think rifle racks would be even one step further.

Now that staging has been addressed. Lets address a few other things. How do we stop:

1) The constant muzzle flagging?
2) Minimizing and ultimately eliminating NDs?
3) Fairly and equitably addressing NDs when they do happen? All while emphasizing that they are unacceptable.

I'm open to hearing your input.
 

ToddM

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I guess you guys advocating trigger weight rules are are anti 2nd amdenment. It’s not people that kill people it’s guns that kill people. A two stage 8oz trigger is by no means unsafe and people use less on hunting rifles but go ahead and advocate punishment for the entire group because of the behavior of few.
Ah the old black and white extremist, I guess that means your refusal to consider steps to reduce ND's you're pro-negligent homicide and you want gun clubs shut down.
 

_Raining

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I guess you guys advocating trigger weight rules are are anti 2nd amdenment. It’s not people that kill people it’s guns that kill people. A two stage 8oz trigger is by no means unsafe and people use less on hunting rifles but go ahead and advocate punishment for the entire group because of the behavior of few.
Nobody is saying you can't have a 2 oz trigger on your rifle. They are advocating for a rule change to prevent you from using it in this competition. You are allowed to own a rifle that shoots a bullet faster than 3200, you just can't use it in a PRS competition. Advocating for rules in a competition has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
 
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ToddM

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It's pretty simply really, lets track the trigger weights for ND's for a season, if lighter triggers don't directly correspond with ND incidents, then there's no correlation and it's not an issue. However, if it does that will clearly show that the whole of PRS competitors or the nature of the competition itself is not safe enough for them. It doesn't matter if you or I never have an ND, we need to strive to get to a point where no one in PRS does. Unfortunately safety rules have to be made for the lowest common denominator, we can do things to change the denominator, but in the face of the lack of resources or willingness of competitors to do that, other options must be taken for safety. I think the point is, if we do something about equipment or not, what we're doing now isn't working.

The culture has to change as well, we've seen many examples of safety violations at PRS events recently, and just as many showing squad members and other competitors not saying anything with violations occur. Heck we even have multiple guys watching a competitor have a squib load and letting him fire a second round blowing up his rifle instead of calling cease fire.
 

morganlamprecht

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You won’t eliminate NDs, best case proper handling is followed and they go in a safe direction...3gun, uspsa, etc, etc have NDs all the time...it’s just part of it in a time/stress game...mentioning eliminating NDs is a pipe dream...I’m not saying we can’t work to reduce them and punish them when it does, but we gotta be realistic

Also, tracking trigger weight data won’t really mean anything...the vast majority of guys are running light triggers...if 80% of the field are running sub 1lb then of course the majority of the NDs will fall in that group of shooters, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have happened with 2lb triggers also

I agree there’s needs to be a push for change and mainly for the current rules to be upheld regardless of shooter, but let’s not get carried away and start throwing misguided solutions around
 

Dolomite_Supafly

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Negligent discharges are not a problem as long as the basic rules of gun safety are followed. If someone negligently or accidentally fires a shot that impacts an area which is safe I would not be as upset as I would be at someone who points a gun in an unsafe direction even if they never fire a shot because guns do malfunction, as do all mechanical things. Pointing a firearm in a safe direction is way more important than not having a negligent discharge. Now granted an ND/AD should not happen either but I would choose a shot fired into a safe area over someone who points a gun at me any day.
 

ToddM

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That's true but the problem with some long rifle ranges is a couple degrees too high, or too low with a skip and it's no longer a safe direction. I guess you could have a 2-teir ND rule, with one lighter punishment for an ND that is contained by a berm/backstop and one that either skips around/over or flat out goes over a berm.
 

lht645

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Negligent discharges are not a problem as long as the basic rules of gun safety are followed. If someone negligently or accidentally fires a shot that impacts an area which is safe I would not be as upset as I would be at someone who points a gun in an unsafe direction even if they never fire a shot because guns do malfunction, as do all mechanical things. Pointing a firearm in a safe direction is way more important than not having a negligent discharge. Now granted an ND/AD should not happen either but I would choose a shot fired into a safe area over someone who points a gun at me any day.
I'm sorry but how in the world do you have a "negligent discharge" while following the basic gun safety rules exactly?
 

gnochi

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I'm sorry but how in the world do you have a "negligent discharge" while following the basic gun safety rules exactly?
Switching from “safe” to “fire” on an old R700. This is negligence more on the part of the manufacturer than the shooter, but it’s still negligence - if the discharge was in an unsafe direction, that’s also severe negligence on the shooter’s part.

Edit: and if the shooter didn’t send their rifle in for service when that option was introduced, also shooter negligence in this specific case. New widgets have new failure modes though.

Remember, we’re dealing with imperfect mechanical systems. World-class process control will result in ~3 defects per million components, and results of defective parts in action can be variable in occurrence.

I’d support a tiered system of:
1. Shooter Negligence (DQ)
2. Equipment Failure (Stage Zero, DQ if it occurs again)
 
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lht645

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Switching from “safe” to “fire” on an old R700. This is negligence more on the part of the manufacturer than the shooter, but it’s still negligence - if the discharge was in an unsafe direction, that’s also severe negligence on the shooter’s part.

Edit: and if the shooter didn’t send their rifle in for service when that option was introduced, also shooter negligence in this specific case. New widgets have new failure modes though.

Remember, we’re dealing with imperfect mechanical systems. World-class process control will result in ~3 defects per million components, and results of defective parts in action can be variable in occurrence.

I’d support a tiered system of:
1. Shooter Negligence (DQ)
2. Equipment Failure (Stage Zero, DQ if it occurs again)
OK that's an accidental discharge, not negligence, but I agree the gun should be in a safe direction once the safety is off. I must say in almost 37 years of dealing with firearms I haven't had a single one do anything on it's own.
 

chevy_man

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OK that's an accidental discharge, not negligence, but I agree the gun should be in a safe direction once the safety is off. I must say in almost 37 years of dealing with firearms I haven't had a single one do anything on it's own.

This.

It's very easy to make a rem 700 trigger go on bolt close. All it takes is an incompetent person making adjustments.

And I have a modified 60's 700 trigger. It's perfect, but it also passed the beating on the ground and with a mallet test. Along with the sear reset to make sure the spring pulls the trigger back forward ( number 1 way to make it discharge when turning the safety off).
 

Snuby642

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Wow !

In contention for the pissyest thread I have seen on s h.

Probably disenchanted some would be participants by now.

Sounds like Washington DC.
 
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