Need to know how to simulate long range targets at a closer range...

Aug 31, 2007
212
0
16
38
Baltimore County, MD
#1
Ok, need some of your brains here...

I've decided that I need to join the range that my dad belongs to so I can get trigger time closer to home and go right after work if I want to...here's the thing, a bunch of years ago there was a golf course that was built around the range and they had to do major modifications such as sound proofing each, individual bench, large concrete retaining walls between the individual distance ranges and they cannot use steel target anymore...

But back to why I need your brains....the farthest yardage is 300 yards. I need to figure out how I can simulate targets at longer distances at 300 yards. Any ideas on how I would be able to accomplish that?

Also, they don't allow positional other than bench and I think you can crawl up onto the bench top to shoot prone...
 
Nov 19, 2017
14
2
3
#4
Smaller targets but that doesn’’t show how well you’’ll be able to read the wind at long range and that’’s usually the biggest variable.
 
Feb 20, 2017
317
62
28
76
SE Florida
#7
22Lr will provide you with all the challenge you need with 300 yards to play with. Find out what your gun likes and go nuts. If nothing else, you'll find an excuse to buy another gun. Eggs at 100 yards with even a good scope can be an issue with a 22. If the 22 isn't challenging enough, get an air rifle. You can spend just as much money and nothing is more frustrating on a windy day except maybe a blow gun.
 

demolitionman

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 26, 2013
1,114
352
83
Ohio
#8
Ok Let me elaborate a little on how your 22lr can be your ideal simulation trainer. First it will be important to dope out you 22. For example; (looking at my 22 dope card) with my rimfire zero'ed at 50 yards with sub sonic ammo; my come ups look like this:
Rimfire
75 yards - .9 mill
100 yards - 1.9 mills
140 yards - 3.9 mills
180 yards - 6.1 mills
200 yards - 7.24 mills
230 yards - 9 mills
255 yards - 10.54 mills
Now that I've got data on previous engagements with my 22 written down, I'll cross reference that data with my centerfire rifle dope at the same distances
Take for instance my dope on my 243
.9 mills - 310 yards
1.9 mills - 470 yards
3.9 mills -710 yards
7.24 mills -1000 yards
and so on.

So without me getting into the wind ballastics (which is a huge factor) you can essentially simulate shooting your 22lr to 1000 yards with only a 200 yard range if compared to a 243 shooting a 95gr smk at roughly 3000fps. Good luck!
 
Likes: Colt1776

TheGerman

Oberleutnant
Jan 25, 2010
4,118
1,510
113
Out West
#9
This.

I shoot 200-300 with the 22LR and the attention to detail it demands from you translates exponentially to centefire. I'm not a slouch with a 6.5, 300WM or 338, but what the 22 has made me pay attention to and fix has kicked me up a level especially for first round hits.

The 22 ballistics aren't really as much about the MILS of hold or wind at X distances being similar to a centerfire's holds at Y difference; instead its about training for everything to be as perfect as you can get it. Shoot a 3" gong at 250 with a 22 and see how many hits you can make; then do it in the wind or at a UKD. Just a 5 yard difference past 100y or 2mph wind shift will make a huge difference as all of the tiny things that add up to be misses become VERY prevalent. At 300 I could tell you if it was going to be a hit or not while the round was in the air because it relied on my position, trigger and follow through to be absolutely perfect; the reticle moving even the slightest was enough to open up the accuracy cone to where I'd just miss.

Additionally, get the objective device (forget what its called right now but a SH member makes them) that goes over your scope objective and makes targets at even 20 yards look small. Use this to dry fire working mainly on position, breaking position and trigger pull/follow through/reticle movement. SO if you do things like crush the trigger, go right from trigger to bolt or just aim 'somewhere on the target' or at a different spot or lack reticle/target/reticle focus that you may be able to get away with when shooting groups with a centerfire or blaming on the wind or whatever at distance, the 22 will punish you for it very quickly.

Here's my 22LR range card for 4k DA I used the other day: [TABLE="border: 0, cellspacing: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 823, colspan: 11"]22LR – 40g Lapua Center X[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 11"]Density Altitude 4000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Temp 60F / 1066fps[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Temp 80F / 1066fps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]ZERO – 70*, 4000DA[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Wind @ 5 mph[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]ZERO – 70*, 4000DA[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Wind @ 5 mph[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Distance[/TD]
[TD]MILS[/TD]
[TD]Spin – R[/TD]
[TD]Full[/TD]
[TD]Half[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Distance[/TD]
[TD]MILS[/TD]
[TD]Spin – R[/TD]
[TD]Full[/TD]
[TD]Half[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]0.0[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]0.0[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]100[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.4[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]100[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]110[/TD]
[TD]-0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]110[/TD]
[TD]-0.4[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]-1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]-0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]130[/TD]
[TD]-1.5[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]130[/TD]
[TD]-1.4[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]140[/TD]
[TD]-2.0[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]140[/TD]
[TD]-1.9[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]150[/TD]
[TD]-2.5[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]150[/TD]
[TD]-2.5[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]160[/TD]
[TD]-3.1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]160[/TD]
[TD]-3.0[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]170[/TD]
[TD]-3.6[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]170[/TD]
[TD]-3.6[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]180[/TD]
[TD]-4.2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]180[/TD]
[TD]-4.1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]190[/TD]
[TD]-4.8[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]190[/TD]
[TD]-4.7[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]-5.3[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]-5.3[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]210[/TD]
[TD]-5.9[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]210[/TD]
[TD]-5.8[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]220[/TD]
[TD]-6.6[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]220[/TD]
[TD]-6.4[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]230[/TD]
[TD]-7.2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]230[/TD]
[TD]-7.0[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]240[/TD]
[TD]-7.8[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]240[/TD]
[TD]-7.7[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]250[/TD]
[TD]-8.4[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]250[/TD]
[TD]-8.3[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]260[/TD]
[TD]-9.1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]260[/TD]
[TD]-8.9[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]270[/TD]
[TD]-9.7[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]270[/TD]
[TD]-9.6[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280[/TD]
[TD]-10.4[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]280[/TD]
[TD]-10.2[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]290[/TD]
[TD]-11.1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]290[/TD]
[TD]-10.9[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]300[/TD]
[TD]-11.7[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]300[/TD]
[TD]-11.6[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:

TheGerman

Oberleutnant
Jan 25, 2010
4,118
1,510
113
Out West
#11

demolitionman

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 26, 2013
1,114
352
83
Ohio
#12
You guys that are using .22's....what type of .22 rifles are you using? I don't have the cash to get something high-end anytime soon.....someone has suggested somewhere else to look at Savage and CZ
Im shooting a Savage MkII TR. I ended up having to cut my own bottom metal and play with action screw torque but it now shoots good enough to splat eggs at 70 yards no problem. Cci SV.
 

45cal4life

It's a secret
Jan 20, 2005
143
40
28
Arkansas
#13
As said many times above, 22lr. Every variable comes into play and has a direct result. Which rifle will depend on your budget and what part(s) are needed; Scope, base, rings, bi-pod, sling, etc.
 

Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Sep 24, 2014
2,830
733
113
Pacific Northwest
#15
Unfortunately a new rifle isn't in the budget right now, thats why I was hoping to simulate with my 6 Creed...
Reduced loads with Trail Boss powder and a crappy bullet might get you close. Maybe something like the 100gr Hornady BTSP which is pretty cheap and has a lower BC, send it around 1500-1800 fps and you'd have a fair bit of wind drift at 300 yards.
 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,560
812
113
Arizona, good place for me...
#16
I went through all this about 10-15 years ago, starting with the .22LR at distances out to 200yd. I liked the process, but the 22lr got overpowered by winds too easily, and more importantly, I was playing ammunition roulette with the quality of the rimfire ammo at the time.

Eventually, I replaced the .22LR with the .223 Remington. Since I was already a handloader, this gave me the ability to develop loads specifically suited to the barrel I was using; and that was important because it reduced the inaccuracy potential of the equipment, and made it easier to keep track of progress with my skills.I developed 250yd F Class identical MOA equivalent targets and we even ran matches on them for several years at 250yd when the range got extended.

On reflection, the overall newer setup was a very happy one. It's very challenging, especially in the wind. IMHO, it ekes out the best potential of the 250-300yd distance envelope for training purposes. I recently moved to the Southwest (Cochise County, AZ), and am now a member of a range club that has the 300yd (and meter) distance always available. I am redeveloping my loads for newer rifles, and will probably end up recreating the experience I had from before. My Granddaughter and I recently competed at 600yd with a bolt gun and an AR varmint gun (each a .223), and it was a real hoot. We did all our training at 100yd using those 2" easy to see paste-ons. The wind skills were not so obviously needed at 100yd. Moving on out to 300yd should return our wind skills practice to the proper degree of challenge.

Greg
 

Longshot231

New Hide Member
Mar 8, 2018
39
17
8
#17
Here's a video I made of shooting an Anschutz 64MPR with an MDT chassis at 300 yards. After I made this video, I upgraded the scope to be the same as my centerfire rifles.

It now wears the Vortex PST Viper 5-25X with MRAD reticle. Hopefully, I can do better the next time I shoot at this distance.

WARNING: This can be an extremely boring video unless you are real into long distance shooting. With that said, I won't be offended if you don't watch it clear through. Skip to 12:45 and you can see the bullet pass over the target on one of my misses.

 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,560
812
113
Arizona, good place for me...
#18
Revisiting this topic...

While I like the .22lr, I have some trepidation regarding ammunition consistency. To get decent consistency, I had to buy the more expensive ammunition, and honestly, the price of a new rifle didn't look so bad by comparison.

But all of this also fuels the tendency to insist that the rifle, ammo, and all other factors need to be top notch, and that's where I balk. A more basic, simple, and inexpensive setup will also help, as long as we are willing to work within a simplified set of standards.

The super system will shoot to a standard of 'X' moa, and the basic one will shoot to a standard of 'X' plus 'Y' moa. For as long as each will shoot to its own standard with good consistency, I believe each is equally useful for that training task. In either situation, improvement (or deterioration) in performance will be visible, and maybe even moreso in the system that prints a larger group within its range of performance.

In the end, the shooter gets to decide, but the simpler system is going to deliver that decision for less cost.

One other thing we did was to handload our own lower velocity centerfire cartridges. I tried .223 and .22-250 with 52gr SMK's and microcharges of Unique. I don't like publishing charges that vastly differ from customary ones, but I'll simply say that if the grains get to be more than a single digit, you're running more powder than I was. Saying that, make absolutely certain your charges will consistently drive the bullet fast enough to reliably clear the bore!!!!

Accuracy at 100yd (with zero wind!) was very satisfactory, noise was greatly diminished, and they really got blown around when the breeze picked up. In some ways that might be construed as what you'd be looking for, but it really didn't take much wind to turn the target into something that looked like a shotgun pattern. I'd also say that there's probably a lot of room for larger charges, but I can't say much more than that, since I never tried them.

All in all, I subscribe to the theory that there are many ways to defur that feline. If you must step outside the box, please be careful about those giant steps.

Greg
 
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