LVPO question

TMR137

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Need a little advise here guys. I have been researching LVPO’s for some time and have decided that I want to give one a try. I have decades behind red dots and magnifiers on carbines; but I think the pros of a LPVO are worth making the switch. I am wanting to get one for an 11.5” sbr and here is my dilemma:

I don’t really want to drop $1400+ on a top quality lpvo right out of the gate as I am not sure it’s something I will want to stick with. That being said, if I was to get something like the PST gen 2 just To get some time behind one, will the quality and feature difference between the PST and say the NX8, kahles, MK6, etc, turn me off to LPVO’s? Or would a PST give me a fair assessment of how I would feel about a LPVO?

Thanks ahead of time for the imput!
 

Shooter McGavin

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For the price of the PST Gen II you can get a Trijicon 1-8. Also, use code WORK7 for an extra %5 off.


Just another option for you
 
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Campt413

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I guess it depends on exactly what you are concerned about? If you are just concerned about how you will like the 1x-6x+ mag then I would recommend going even cheaper than the PST. (No need to spend that much money just to try out mag range) and if it is right for you and you are willing to buy a high end optics anyways, I wouldn't spend half the budget on the PST.

Even something like a strike eagle would give you enough to know the concept.
 

eddie102870

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sheppard scopes makes a decent 1-8 with clear glass. i used one in a match and did fine with it. tracks good and the price is around 400 bucks.
 

TMR137

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I guess it depends on exactly what you are concerned about? If you are just concerned about how you will like the 1x-6x+ mag then I would recommend going even cheaper than the PST. (No need to spend that much money just to try out mag range) and if it is right for you and you are willing to buy a high end optics anyways, I wouldn't spend half the budget on the PST.

Even something like a strike eagle would give you enough to know the concept.
A few of my concerns are:
eye box
alternative Shooting positions
field of view
clarity
true 1x
usable reticle at 1x and what ever top magnification is
 

TMR137

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For the price of the PST Gen II you can get a Trijicon 1-8. Also, use code WORK7 for an extra %5 off.


Just another option for you
what are people’s thoughts on the weight of the accupower? Seems to be a lot to add compared to others
 

Rerun7

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Not saying you have to start with one of the top tier models but I tried a lower tier model several years ago and just didn’t like it. The eye box wasn’t forgiving enough to be as fast as I wanted and the reticle didn’t do a great job at long range.

Fast forward to now, I decided to give it another try with a higher end model and absolutely love it. Very little difference in speed vs the red dot and the bdc makes for fast hits out to 500 yards.

So if you go lower end just set your expectations properly.
 
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The DFC

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Too bad-Cameraland had Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-8.5x for a song during Christmas. One thing I've learned with LPVOs is that at lower mags you don't need SB glass because it's all pretty good at 6-8x-so you definitely don't need to break the bank. Another thing is if you need red dot make sure it's daylight bright like a red dot.
 
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Campt413

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Another option is to pick up one used in the px section. Then if you don't like it you can resell it and might not be out any money
 

Xander3Zero

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I recently picked up a XTRII 1-8x with the ballistic circle dot reticle from Camera Land for $750. I had read Ilya's review where he put it as the best LPVO in the $1000 range, and even mentioned it as a great optic sub-$2000. So when I saw it on sale for $750 I felt like I couldn't go wrong.

I haven't mounted it to a rifle yet (finishing up a 18" AR for it now) but I really like the reticle so far from just playing around with it. At 1x the circle really draws you to the point of aim. Around 3-4x you can start to make out the BDC details and it feels like its going to be very precise once you get above 5x.

Eyebox seems relatively good, from what I can tell holding the scope in my hands and adjusting it through the magnification range. It's a very beefy optic with the 34mm tube and its certainly not lightweight. So far I am really liking the LPVO "sector" and would love to be able to compare it to some of the higher end offerings like the NF, Minox, or the new Vortex/Khales that are being released at SHOT.
 

The DFC

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I recently picked up a XTRII 1-8x with the ballistic circle dot reticle from Camera Land for $750. I had read Ilya's review where he put it as the best LPVO in the $1000 range, and even mentioned it as a great optic sub-$2000. So when I saw it on sale for $750 I felt like I couldn't go wrong.

I haven't mounted it to a rifle yet (finishing up a 18" AR for it now) but I really like the reticle so far from just playing around with it. At 1x the circle really draws you to the point of aim. Around 3-4x you can start to make out the BDC details and it feels like its going to be very precise once you get above 5x.

Eyebox seems relatively good, from what I can tell holding the scope in my hands and adjusting it through the magnification range. It's a very beefy optic with the 34mm tube and its certainly not lightweight. So far I am really liking the LPVO "sector" and would love to be able to compare it to some of the higher end offerings like the NF, Minox, or the new Vortex/Khalesba that are being released at SHOT.

I'm interested in your feedback on this. I almost bought one but went with the Bushnell because I liked the reticle better. Is it daylight bright?

The Bushnell is very heavy bastard too.
 

Hollywood 6mm

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Too bad-Cameraland had Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-8.5x for a song during Christmas. One thing I've learned with LPVOs is that at lower mags you don't need SB glass because it's all pretty good at 6-8x-so you definitely don't need to break the bank. Another thing is if you need red dot make sure it's daylight bright like a red dot.
I didn't realize that deal was gone. Kinda pissed I missed out, honestly, because it was a screaming deal.
 

candyx

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Try out a Trijicon VCOG comes with mount all in one with the LED reticle , its like using a eotech reticle .
 

Xander3Zero

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I'm interested in your feedback on this. I almost bought one but went with the Bushnell because I liked the reticle better. Is it daylight bright?

The Bushnell is very heavy bastard too.
Yeah so the reticles look very similar except that the Bushy has a mil-scale vertical stadia instead of the BDC in the Burris. If I didnt find the great deal on the Burris I probably would have preferred a true mil-scale reticle, but I'm building this AR to kinda just be an all-around battle rifle so I figured I would give the BDC a try. If the drops are on, its going to be very fast to engage targets at various distances.

The other thing is that I have a Bushnell DMR2 on my precision bolt gun, so I thought I would give Burris a shot and see how it compares in build quality.

As far as the illumination, I haven't tested it outdoors in true daylight, but I have spent some time looking out my window with it during daylight and had no problems seeing the illumination, even a few settings below max brightness.
 
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catalyst81

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I recently picked up a XTRII 1-8x with the ballistic circle dot reticle from Camera Land for $750. I had read Ilya's review where he put it as the best LPVO in the $1000 range, and even mentioned it as a great optic sub-$2000. So when I saw it on sale for $750 I felt like I couldn't go wrong.

I haven't mounted it to a rifle yet (finishing up a 18" AR for it now) but I really like the reticle so far from just playing around with it. At 1x the circle really draws you to the point of aim. Around 3-4x you can start to make out the BDC details and it feels like its going to be very precise once you get above 5x.

Eyebox seems relatively good, from what I can tell holding the scope in my hands and adjusting it through the magnification range. It's a very beefy optic with the 34mm tube and its certainly not lightweight. So far I am really liking the LPVO "sector" and would love to be able to compare it to some of the higher end offerings like the NF, Minox, or the new Vortex/Khales that are being released at SHOT.
I have two of these and love them. Such a deal at $750. I think I snagged their last one.
 

Lawless

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I bought 2 of the Bushnells and sent them back. Doug and company is great to work with.

The problems with it are non-existent wind holds close to the vertical (what is there isn’t based on mils as far as I can tell) and the reticle is unusable without illumination on 1x.

The genius of FFP LPVO is a quick usable reticle on 1x and a usable mil reticle on higher power. Other scopes pull it off much better.
 

Xander3Zero

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I bought 2 of the Bushnells and sent them back. Doug and company is great to work with.

The problems with it are non-existent wind holds close to the vertical (what is there isn’t based on mils as far as I can tell) and the reticle is unusable without illumination on 1x.

The genius of FFP LPVO is a quick usable reticle on 1x and a usable mil reticle on higher power. Other scopes pull it off much better.
That circle on the Bushy isn't usable at 1x? The circle on the XTRII is 10mils, so at 1x its still pretty visible to my eye. The 10mil circle is also nice because at 100 yards its 1 yard, at 200 yards its 2 yards, etc. And on the vertical holdovers, there are horizontal lines that equal 18" at the distance equivalent to the drop, which is nice since 18" is a typical body-size target. I'm excited to get this AR finished up and out to the range!
 

The DFC

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I bought 2 of the Bushnells and sent them back. Doug and company is great to work with.

The problems with it are non-existent wind holds close to the vertical (what is there isn’t based on mils as far as I can tell) and the reticle is unusable without illumination on 1x.

The genius of FFP LPVO is a quick usable reticle on 1x and a usable mil reticle on higher power. Other scopes pull it off much better.
My application of the LPVO was definitely more toward using the long range end of it-400yd steel and only needing a daylight bright dot (horseshoe in this case obv) for 1x stuff vs. using the reticle.
 
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redneckbmxer24

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The biggest problem with LPVO's IMO is the fish eye. That fucks me up far more than one having a little bit more magnification than another. I'll take a 1.5X that has a flat image over a 1.000000001x that is fish eyed any day of the week. There's more to just that though especially in FFP's, a lot of them don't get the reticle right and some of them have good a good scope with both good and bad reticle choices. CQBSS and Mark 6 are a perfect example, with the TMR-D reticle they blow since it's very hard to pick up on 1x, but with the H27D or CMR-W they're awesome.

The best LPVO I have ever looked through (sadly don't own one because I still cant justify it) is the S&B 1-8 dual CC. It appears to be 100% 1x and has a red dot in the second focal plane, and a etched reticle in the first focal plane. It's as perfect as a LPVO gets but it'll also cost you well over $3K even getting a hell of a deal on one.

Close second for me is the Leupold CQBSS H27D model. That scope is great. Flat image, a little magnification but not enough that it ever slowed me down transitioning targets over a red dot. The Leupold Mark 6 1-6 is also really great with one of the CMR reticles.

The worst two I have used for fisheye and coincidentally reticles was the NF 1-4 and NX8 1-8. The fisheye on both of these are atrocious, like I wouldn't run one if it was free bad. I tried to put up with the 1-4 for a while but couldn't. The NX8 got mounted and never even taken to the range. Whole lotta NOPE. The reticles in both also suck ass. The ATACR 1-8 is a different story, very good eyebox, very very minimal fisheye, and a usable reticle at all magnifications. IMO not as good as a CQBSS though and definitely not as good as the S&B.

Never had or used a PST 1-6 but I did have a 1-4 (two actually due to replacements) and I wouldn't buy one again. For the $400 or so it cost me, it was not the worst LPVO I've used overall. The eyebox was good, was close to 1x (not as much so as others), the glass was ok (good enough for a 4X), and the fisheye was pretty well controlled. The biggest knick from it was reliability, reliable it was not. The second was the turrets... If a LPVO has exposed turrets the windage NEEDS to be locking or very stiff (ideally capped though), and the elevation knob NEEDS to be locking or have a proper zero stop, not those shitty shims that the first gen PST's came with. The knobs on the 1-4 sucked. They were very tall and would easily snag on stuff, and were very easy to turn.

My experience with Vortex has not been very good, I have only ever had one that I have not had a problem with and that's the last one I bought which is a Razor HD-E 1-6 and that's mostly because it's been sitting new in the box for two months while I wait for my mount. I still can't personally recommend it as far as reliability or function, but a lot of people (people who use their shit) say they're the shit, and they have been awarded contracts, so there's that. My initial impressions are very good however and if it holds up then I don't think I'll have any complaints about it. Just holding it up and looking around it has a great eyebox, and the fisheye is well controlled.

Never used the Kahles but heard it's good.

As far as LPVO vs RDS.... Yes, LPVO all day every day. Only if it's a good one.

I understand not wanting to drop a lot of $$ to try out, but if you get the right deal on a used unit then you will lose less money (most likely none) if you decide to dump vs buying a cheaper one. You usually will see a CQBSS H27D pop up here or arfcom every week or two and usually around $2K with no mount or $2100-$2200 with a quality mount. I've seen several sell with Geiselle mounts in that price range, so if you buy at that price you shouldn't lose anything but shipping costs if you dump it.

Or you can call the right dealer and order a brand new Vortex Razor 1-6 for $1200 or less which is what they typically get listed used for (or more). Or you can get the new 1-10 for probably 10% off or better and as long as you get in early and for whatever reason you don't like it you should be able to dump that and not lose anything since they'll probably be backordered for the first few batches.

My $.02
 

exoto1225

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I've got Vortex Strike Eagle, Razor HD genII and Kahles K16i. I have looked through a PST. I can tell you that there ARE differences, noticeable differences, and the first thing you'll notice is that optic clarity is significantly better on the expensive scopes, especially when you looking at a longer distance. The images of Razor and K16i are bright and super clear, like you are watching an HD tv. The illumination is visible on a sunny day (Razor's illumination is like a red dot, which I really like), and the BDC reticles of K16i and Razor are thin and precise, useful for competitive situations up to 600 yards. Both Razor and K16i has huge FOV, extremely forgiving eye box, and a true 1x
The Strike Eagle is pretty much the opposite of all of these. It is useable but not making your job as easy.
I've talked to a competitive shooter, his opinion is the glass quality matters the most because with a high-quality class, it is easier to locate the target and see impacts, basically making you faster and more accurate.
TBH, excellent optical performance and light weight are why K16i is popular in 3gun, the K16i turret is no better than Strike eagle, so is everything else. On the other hand, Razor's turrets are much better, and it's about 95% glass performance to K16i for almost half the price, the only drawback is it's heavy. So I would recommend Razor HD if you don't want to spend too much. A used one typically costs about 800 or so and it's easy to sell with Vortex's no question asked lifetime warranty.
 
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TMR137

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Thank you guys, I really appreciate the info. I am leaning towards saving my pennies for a little bit and getting a higher quality LPVO. A buddy just picked up the NX8, so I am hoping to get some time on that here in the next few days.
 

308pirate

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I think you should buy a Steiner PX4i 1-4X to try the whole thing out.

If you choose to move up to something more top end magnification, you will have zero trouble moving it at a reasonable price.

But I bet you won't even want something else after you try it.
 

TMR137

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I think you should buy a Steiner PX4i 1-4X to try the whole thing out.

If you choose to move up to something more top end magnification, you will have zero trouble moving it at a reasonable price.

But I bet you won't even want something else after you try it.
I haven't looked into those, that being said I run T5xi's on two of my precision rifles and like them a lot. How is the glass and daylight brightness of the P4xi?
 

gnochi

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I haven't looked into those, that being said I run T5xi's on two of my precision rifles and like them a lot. How is the glass and daylight brightness of the P4xi?
The glass punches above its price class - I’d say it’s a bit worse than the Razor II, but only a bit. The red dot gets hella bright. No trouble seeing it instantly on a sunny day.

Faults:
  • Turrets are mushy AF
  • I prefer FFP, alas
 

308pirate

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@TMR137

The glass punches above its price class - I’d say it’s a bit worse than the Razor II, but only a bit. The red dot gets hella bright. No trouble seeing it instantly on a sunny day.
This is all 100% true. I have one and it fucking blows any similar Trijicon completely out of the water. I sold my Trijicon Accupower 1-4X as soon as I bought my Steiner.

Faults:
  • Turrets are mushy AF
  • I prefer FFP, alas
The turrets are to be used to zero the scope and then are to be left the fuck alone. The Steiner P4Xi 1-4X is meant to be shot using the BDC reticle and in my personal experience it's accurate enough to hit man sized targets repeatedly to 500 yards.

FFP in a BDC 1-4X scope is dumb.
 

Rob01

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I just threw a PST Gen II 1-6x on my 10.5" 300BO. The PST is a nice little package and a totally different animal than the original PST 1-4. It's set up more like the Razor 1-6 with the covered knobs. It actually has some nice glass and FOV for what it's price range. Not as good as the Razor II but not the cost either.

Here is a pic to give you an idea of size. I have the sunshade on the front so if you wanted to know the length without just look at the writing on the objective area and that is the end of the scope. I tried to take a picture on 1x through the scope on my wall about 7 feet away but I suck taking through the scope pics especially when holding the rifle up with one hand and trying to get a pic with the other. LOL

IMG_3267.JPG
IMG_3271.JPG
 
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Rob01

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@Rob01
Would you consider the Razor Gen 2 worthy of the cost over the PST Gen 2?
Yes as the Razor is an excellent scope but it comes down to wants and needs. The PST Gen II fills the needs for many as it's a solid optic but if you had more money and wanted better the Razor is it. Just like higher powered optics. Don't read that as a slam to the PST 1-6 though. If it was your price range then you could do much worse. I haven't had it for as long as i have had my Razor 1-6s but I had it on a .223 before this and it did well on it also.

Also the dot above was on 5 power when I took that pic so it gets brighter.
 

Sincerd

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I started out with a good one. If you don't I think it will turn you off. The only reason why LPVOs are nice is the view at One X. A good view at 1X would be at least a Vortex Viper.
 

Sincerd

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Actually there's never been a better time to buy a razor with the new ones coming out everyone and dumping them cheap.
 

Lawless

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SWFA 1-4HD and 1-6HD. 1st 2 are 1-4, last 2 are 1-6, they both are similar in reticle.

I own 2

*Edited to correct which pic is which
 
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