LMT vs LWRC vs KAC for AR10

87stang

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The APR is slick. It really depends on the ranges your shooting. The APC is just as accurate but your going to give up some velocity. If I remember correctly FGMM 7.62M2 does about 2550 from the 16” guns. They are plenty capable to 800yds and can be pushed farther. KAC is releasing a 22” 6.5 Creedmoor upper as well. I’m not sure when they will be available though. Give Jacob Nakley a call at NS Defense and he can get you squared away. Good guy to deal with.
 

87stang

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I agree there, if you went LMT is there a specific model yould recommend?
Yeah, I’d look at the MWS 6.5 Long range and the MWS Defender. As stated before, it’s modular so it doesn’t matter which you get. Pick the hand guard style you want and the caliber/barrel length you want to start with.

I had the L129a1 for a while. Great rifle, just heavy. If it had been an mlock upper I likely would have kept it. I can honestly say I my KAC better. I can run it as a heavy carbine and it really doesn’t feel much different than a 5.56 or put a little more glass on it and use it in more of a precision roll. Is it worth worth the $1500 difference? To me it was, but I didn’t need the modularity.
 

TangoSierra916

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Yeah, I’d look at the MWS 6.5 Long range and the MWS Defender. As stated before, it’s modular so it doesn’t matter which you get. Pick the hand guard style you want and the caliber/barrel length you want to start with.

I had the L129a1 for a while. Great rifle, just heavy. If it had been an mlock upper I likely would have kept it. I can honestly say I my KAC better. I can run it as a heavy carbine and it really doesn’t feel much different than a 5.56 or put a little more glass on it and use it in more of a precision roll. Is it worth worth the $1500 difference? To me it was, but I didn’t need the modularity.
Thanks again for the insight, not to add another option but I’ve heard great things about JP as well, where do they fit in as far as precision with KAC and LMT? (Shooter dependent)
 

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Thanks again for the insight, not to add another option but I’ve heard great things about JP as well, where do they fit in as far as precision with KAC and LMT? (Shooter dependent)
Jp's are awesome, different breed, where as kac and lmt designed their weapons for the battlefield field, jp designed theres for competition and as as result probably have the smoothest rifle on its class.

Adjust gas systems, adjustable buffer systems, adjustable carrier mass, the rifle can be tuned to exactly the load you plan to shoot.

I would love to have one.
 
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With the LM308MWS rifles it comes down to picking the upper. They are all the same length. The CQB (cheese grater) has pic rail on 4 side so is great if you are going to load the thing up with lights, illuminators, sonar and the like. The slick has the smallest smoothest and most comfortable (for me) ergonomics. I have had the CQB and now have an M-loc upper. I like the look of the M-loc best and it is the lightest but you should know that M-loc accessories mostly have to be removed when changing the barrel. It is possible to grind down the screws flush with the fitting on the inside but for components near the barrel clamp one must also grind down the thickness of the m-loc fitting.

As I don't need to bolt stuff onto the upper the M-loc is fine. Doing it again I would get the slick for the smoother profile and bolt on ARCA or Pic rail as needed, with actual threaded mounting points vs m-loc.

Rasyad
 
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87stang

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Thanks again for the insight, not to add another option but I’ve heard great things about JP as well, where do they fit in as far as precision with KAC and LMT? (Shooter dependent)
JP rifles are nice. They are probably the softest and fastest shooting AR around in both AR-15 and AR-10 platforms. I’ve run one of their 9mm in comps and it’s a nice gun. That being said, they are not my cup of tea. Ugly as sin and more things to go wrong. KAC and LMT have figured out how to do 95-98% of what what JP can do accuracy wise. What I believe JP can’t do is run in the same harsh environments as KAC and LMT. IMHO they are a complete toy. Great for comps but I find there are better options for my uses. Different hammers for different nails.
 
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LeadZeke

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Since this is largely between LMT and KAC I'd go LMT as it has more options at lower prices in its current guise.
 
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TangoSierra916

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JP rifles are nice. They are probably the softest and fastest shooting AR around in both AR-15 and AR-10 platforms. I’ve run one of their 9mm in comps and it’s a nice gun. That being said, they are not my cup of tea. Ugly as sin and more things to go wrong. KAC and LMT have figured out how to do 95-98% of what what JP can do accuracy wise. What I believe JP can’t do is run in the same harsh environments as KAC and LMT. IMHO they are a complete toy. Great for comps but I find there are better options for my uses. Different hammers for different nails.
I appreciate the honesty, I was very close to buying a JP. In your experience are KAC and LMT the same level of precision (as JP) for competition use? Im looking for really a one caliber rifle that kicks ass in that caliber for comps primarily but hunts and targets as secondary.
 

TangoSierra916

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Yeah, I’d look at the MWS 6.5 Long range and the MWS Defender. As stated before, it’s modular so it doesn’t matter which you get. Pick the hand guard style you want and the caliber/barrel length you want to start with.

I had the L129a1 for a while. Great rifle, just heavy. If it had been an mlock upper I likely would have kept it. I can honestly say I my KAC better. I can run it as a heavy carbine and it really doesn’t feel much different than a 5.56 or put a little more glass on it and use it in more of a precision roll. Is it worth worth the $1500 difference? To me it was, but I didn’t need the modularity.
are you seeing consistent accuracy at distance with your KAC?
 

TangoSierra916

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thanks everyone for the responses so far, as far as issues with either rifle I know there are many similarities but as anyone experienced issues with KAC sr25 or the LMT MWS?

Reason Im asking is I had a dealer I was working with advise that LMT usually ships with issues and missing parts, I hadnt heard that before so wanted to check with users here. thanks again!
 

87stang

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I appreciate the honesty, I was very close to buying a JP. In your experience are KAC and LMT the same level of precision (as JP) for competition use? Im looking for really a one caliber rifle that kicks ass in that caliber for comps primarily but hunts and targets as secondary.
I don’t think KAC and LMT hold quite the same accuracy as JP, but realize most people can’t shoot the difference. A large frame AR takes a lot more work to shoot accurately. Functionally, most people could not tell a difference in accuracy between them. At this level it’s more of a buy what you like deal. You would be equally as well served with any of them.
I don’t like gamer guns. That’s me personally. When I shoot comps, I shoot what I would carry. Be it on a hunt or EDC or whatever. Honestly, give that you stated shooting comps and hunting I would personally lean to the KAC. For now they are chambered in .308 only so you will give up a bit in comps to guys running 6.5 an 6mm but you can even that out with training and ammo choices. 168 elds should help with that. They are all a compromise some where you just have to pick where you are comfortable compromising.

As an addition, one of the reasons I have transitioned to mostly KAC, besides the quality, is the come set up nearly perfect for me. I don’t feel the need to change triggers, hand guards, irons, stock, or anything else. I’m even good with the pistol grip. KAC also retains value better than most. Should you decide that large frame ARs aren’t for you the you would be able to recoup most of your investment.

I am seeing consistent accuracy out of my ACC but I have realistic expectations due to the way I run it. The ACC is a lighter weight profile CL barrel so it does open groups up as it heats up. I still get around 1-1.2 moa our of it which is fine for a heavy carbine.
 
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Jsp556

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You can get a MWS defender in the $2200 range. Extra SS barrel and bolt carrier group costs about $1k. The chrome lined barrels shoot almost as well as the stainless. Leaves about $1300 toward ammo or optic at the same price as the knights rifle. The poi change from barrel swaps is repeatable. You don’t have to send the rifle to the factory for a barrel swap. It doesn’t shoot as smooth as a KAC but you get to keep your kidney. You’ll still be a poor with the MWS though. 🤣


Small Arms Solutions does a decent comparison of the MWS and SR-25
 
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TangoSierra916

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You can get a MWS defender in the $2200 range. Extra SS barrel and bolt carrier group costs about $1k. The chrome lined barrels shoot almost as well as the stainless. Leaves about $1300 toward ammo or optic at the same price as the knights rifle. The poi change from barrel swaps is repeatable. You don’t have to send the rifle to the factory for a barrel swap. It doesn’t shoot as smooth as a KAC but you get to keep your kidney. You’ll still be a poor with the MWS though. 🤣


Small Arms Solutions does a decent comparison of the MWS and SR-25
I was just watching that 😁 thank you!

Still be a poor.... lol ah damn well there goes that one
 

LAW-DOG

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I was just watching that 😁 thank you!

Still be a poor.... lol ah damn well there goes that one
Decide if you want a competition shooter or Battle rifle. The comp rifle will be more accurate & the battle rifles will be more reliable & shoot factory ammo better. Kac & mws will be moa or just under & jp & gap10 are competition rifles that shoot .5moa or better but built for reloaders so factory ammo won’t work well unless you have the built for certain factory match ammo but they won’t shoot everything like the mws & kac. If you don’t reload get the mws & a mk5hd, razor, trijicon accupower, xrs2, or dmr pro & a bunch of gold medal match ammo
 
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87stang

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Decide if you want a competition shooter or Battle rifle. The comp rifle will be more accurate & the battle rifles will be more reliable & shoot factory ammo better. Kac & mws will be moa or just under & jp & gap10 are competition rifles that shoot .5moa or better but built for reloaders so factory ammo won’t work well unless you have the built for certain factory match ammo but they won’t shoot everything like the mws & kac. If you don’t reload get the mws & a mk5hd, razor, trijicon accupower, xrs2, or dmr pro & a bunch of gold medal match ammo
Well said, although I would say the KAC handles better in my opinion and they are more than MOA. Good call on the MK5. It a really good fit for AR-10/SR-25 paternities rifles.

7096973

This is from a 16” ACC. It’s on the tighter end of accuracy for an ACC but not an outlier.

7096974

And this one is from a 20” APR. Full disclosure, these are not my pics but are fairly representative. OP check out the KAC forum on AR.15. Unlike the rest of that wasteland the KAC are pretty civilized. There’s some good info on SRs and LMT as well there.
 

GUNNER10

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Decide if you want a competition shooter or Battle rifle. The comp rifle will be more accurate & the battle rifles will be more reliable & shoot factory ammo better. Kac & mws will be moa or just under & jp & gap10 are competition rifles that shoot .5moa or better but built for reloaders so factory ammo won’t work well unless you have the built for certain factory match ammo but they won’t shoot everything like the mws & kac. If you don’t reload get the mws & a mk5hd, razor, trijicon accupower, xrs2, or dmr pro & a bunch of gold medal match ammo
Generally speaking JP and GA precision will yield a slightly more accurate rifle but in practical terms LMT SS barrels are pretty accurate these days. here is a pic of my 20 inch 6.5CM, with American Gunner 140Gr. 4 4ound clover leaf with a flyer. I'll take that any day

I love knights and plan on picking one up, but to have a dedicated carbine/long range with around 1800 left over for optics is pretty hard to pass up if funds are limited.

If i money was no issue, sure Ill take a ACC with spare 6.5CM upper but thats 8000k before optics





 

The DFC

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thanks everyone for the responses so far, as far as issues with either rifle I know there are many similarities but as anyone experienced issues with KAC sr25 or the LMT MWS?

Reason Im asking is I had a dealer I was working with advise that LMT usually ships with issues and missing parts, I hadnt heard that before so wanted to check with users here. thanks again!

Operation Parts?

I had an LMT BCG ship to me from Operation Parts without firing pin and cam pin-they didn't check before shipment. I contacted them and they contacted LMT and a week later I got parts directly from LMT with a bunch of swag including an LMT hammer bottle opener which basically made it all worth it lol. I've not heard of them shipping with issues.
 

TangoSierra916

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Operation Parts?

I had an LMT BCG ship to me from Operation Parts without firing pin and cam pin-they didn't check before shipment. I contacted them and they contacted LMT and a week later I got parts directly from LMT with a bunch of swag including an LMT hammer bottle opener which basically made it all worth it lol. I've not heard of them shipping with issues.
No different one lol but that’s sounds like they corrected it quick. Both rifles seem very nice just have to pull the trigger lol
 

LAW-DOG

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When I said Kac is moa or just under moa I was pretty close I think. According to my marsoc sniper friend who knows the kac capabilities very well from seeing how well large groups of snipers shot it, said sniper school testing showed the kac shot right in between 1 moa & 3/4 moa. So most of them shot .875 moa which is very good, the worst ones shot around moa which is still good, & the best ones shot around .75 moa which is very good but not prs gas gun good or competition level. The jp, gap10, & custom builds will shoot at least .5 moa or better meaning the average one will shoot .4 moa & the best will shoot .3 moa which means it’s twice as accurate as the battle rifles lmt/kac. Prs gas gun heavy weight division ar10 is being dominated by custom ar10s like jp & gap10 not kac/lmt because the custom rifles they were built from the ground up for comp with bartlein 5r barrels, custom triggers that are .5-1.5 lbs pull & match chambers designed for custom hand loads. Kac/lmt are battle rifles with reliability & durability, accuracy isn’t their main focus. Kac/lmt don’t have 1lb triggers unless you upgrade, or barrels as good as the best custom & they use sammi spec chambers which have long leads to the lands which makes it less accurate but more reliable with different ammo. These two rifles are different tools for different jobs & each of them are very good at what they do but don’t try to race a Camry vs a corvette. The op wants a comp/hunting/reliable rifle but I don’t think there is one or it would be the best rifle on the planet. For now if I were the op I would get the lmt, a really nice optic, & a bunch of gold medal match ammo & practice a lot. Down the road learn to reload, buy a custom competition rifle, & compete.
 

slowlearner

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Something to be aware of, if you ask Army folks about the M110, you may get varying levels of opinion. This is partially because the M110 isn’t actually specified to be a 1 moa gun, but the procurement was based of average mean radius, which still manages to confuse me most days. So in the same way, units can’t code a gun out (get it replaced) because it shoots 1.1moa. With that said, the 3x I dealt with directly all shot at the moa mark with 118LR. And at this point, the design of the gun is over a decade old, so refinements have been made since then for their civilian offerings.

I don’t know if this holds true for the Marines version.
 

MAC08

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thanks everyone for the responses so far, as far as issues with either rifle I know there are many similarities but as anyone experienced issues with KAC sr25 or the LMT MWS?

Reason Im asking is I had a dealer I was working with advise that LMT usually ships with issues and missing parts, I hadnt heard that before so wanted to check with users here. thanks again!
I have shot both KAC SR25 (work) and LMT (personal) I have had not issues with either rifle. I bought my LMT in 2014 and it came with no missing parts and I have had zero issues with it. I also have not heard from anyone about the issues that your local dealer told you about. Buy either with confidence. I feel that the LMT edges out the SR25. That is my opinion
 

LAW-DOG

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Something to be aware of, if you ask Army folks about the M110, you may get varying levels of opinion. This is partially because the M110 isn’t actually specified to be a 1 moa gun, but the procurement was based of average mean radius, which still manages to confuse me most days. So in the same way, units can’t code a gun out (get it replaced) because it shoots 1.1moa. With that said, the 3x I dealt with directly all shot at the moa mark with 118LR. And at this point, the design of the gun is over a decade old, so refinements have been made since then for their civilian offerings.

I don’t know if this holds true for the Marines version.
My friend is marsoc not a regular marine as he would say & he said he got all the best stuff being in socom
 
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TangoSierra916

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@LAW-DOG - I agree with you and the more I read here and research about and discuss with different military users the more it’s clear if I want a comp gun buy a comp gun like JP, if I want reliability and possibly better functionality in different climates go KAC OR LMT.
 
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TangoSierra916

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I have shot both KAC SR25 (work) and LMT (personal) I have had not issues with either rifle. I bought my LMT in 2014 and it came with no missing parts and I have had zero issues with it. I also have not heard from anyone about the issues that your local dealer told you about. Buy either with confidence. I feel that the LMT edges out the SR25. That is my opinion
Thanks for the reply, how do you feel the LMT edges KAC about?
 

Hogrider2000

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who would you go to if you wanted a KAC, LMT or LWRC
16" barrel, suppressed
adjustable stock
totally hunting weapon and in 6.5 Creedmore

commercially available, am already having one built and taking a long time to get it working well. Apparently gas block problem, and the barrel is not cheap

Please list the distributors if you have that info
 

LAW-DOG

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who would you go to if you wanted a KAC, LMT or LWRC
16" barrel, suppressed
adjustable stock
totally hunting weapon and in 6.5 Creedmore

commercially available, am already having one built and taking a long time to get it working well. Apparently gas block problem, and the barrel is not cheap

Please list the distributors if you have that info
Wilson combat is the only 6.5 creedmoor 16in I know of but di suppressed with no adjustable gas valve isn’t going to work very well, too much blowback. If going suppressed I would go with 308 LWRC 16in or 20in & I don’t think they make 6.5 smaller than 22in. Lwrc are heavy & I wouldn’t want to carry one hunting
 
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TangoSierra916

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Wilson combat is the only 6.5 creedmoor 16in I know of but di suppressed with no adjustable gas valve isn’t going to work very well, too much blowback. If going suppressed I would go with 308 LWRC 16in or 20in & I don’t think they make 6.5 smaller than 22in. Lwrc are heavy & I wouldn’t want to carry one hunting
Any hesitation going kac or lmt suppressed compared to LWRC?
 

LAW-DOG

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You can make the kac work but you need to buy an adjustable gas block to make it function properly. Lwrc were designed for shooting suppressed & that’s what I use so I can shoot at our horse ranch 15 min outside of town instead of 45 min to range
 

87stang

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KAC is a long way past the M110. They are not the same gun but due to the way military contracts are run KAC can’t update the .mil rifles. There have been some great improvements.

You can make the kac work but you need to buy an adjustable gas block to make it function properly. Lwrc were designed for shooting suppressed & that’s what I use so I can shoot at our horse ranch 15 min outside of town instead of 45 min to range
This is not correct. I’ve never had to do anything at all to any KAC rifle to get it to run suppressed. KAC sizes their gas port for this. Also, on the new series SR-25s you can not install an adjustable gas block. They don’t use traditional gas blocks. They are a slip on gas block with thread in gas tube and a castle nut locking the gas block to the barrel. Yes, the barrel is threaded just forward of the gas block journal. I’ll try to dig up a picture shortly.
 
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LAW-DOG

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Any hesitation going kac or lmt suppressed compared to LWRC?
I don’t know if there are any good adjustable gas blocks for the lmt, there might be. I would pick lwrc or kac
View attachment 7097177View attachment 7097178

All of my KAC rifles run almost exclusively suppressed to include 11.5”, 14.5 mod 1 carbine, 16” mod 1, and ACC
I thought there was an aftermarket adjustable block made by somebody, I guess not, good call
 

LAW-DOG

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KAC is a long way past the M110. They are not the same gun but due to the way military contracts are run KAC can’t update the .mil rifles. There have been some great improvements.



This is not correct. I’ve never had to do anything at all to any KAC rifle to get it to run suppressed. KAC sizes their gas port for this. Also, on the new series SR-25s you can not install an adjustable gas block. They don’t use traditional gas blocks. They are a slip on gas block with thread in gas tube and a castle nut locking the gas block to the barrel. Yes, the barrel is threaded just forward of the gas block journal. I’ll try to dig up a picture shortly.
Doesn’t the syrac or Odin adjustable block work for the kac?
 
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LAW-DOG

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I thought one of these syrac, Odin works, superlative, or noveske made an adjustable gas block that worked with the kac
 

LAW-DOG

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Why would you want one? The rifle is ported right to work with their cans.
most people want to control how much pressure is being blown back into their rifle & not all ammo is the same pressure