*JUST RELEASED* Hornady 224 Valkyrie ammo 88gr ELD-M .545 G1 BC 2700fps

Jeffd

Online Training Member
Feb 3, 2011
683
128
43
61
#51
It's because of the twist rate being marginal for the length of the 90gr SMK. They seem to typically shoot well in 7 twist in warmer temps and at higher altitudes but a lot of guys were having problems in colder weather and at sea level.

My theory is that this round was developed and tested last summer in mostly warm temps and it was an oversight.
That's a HUGE oversight from a top ammo manufacturer!
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
3,071
770
113
59
Central Florida
#52
It's because of the twist rate being marginal for the length of the 90gr SMK. They seem to typically shoot well in 7 twist in warmer temps and at higher altitudes but a lot of guys were having problems in colder weather and at sea level.

My theory is that this round was developed and tested last summer in mostly warm temps and it was an oversight.
That's why I took your advice and ordered the 6.7 twist Rock Creek from Craddock. I would have ordered a Bartien 6.5, but they were out of stock. As it is, I think that I ordered the last Rock Creek they had too.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
679
267
63
#53
I am a bit interested because I might get a .224 barrel for an AR.

On the other hand, I've got a couple LR308s in 6.5 Creedmoor and I'm a bit confused, I think a 140 grain ELD-M beats that on BC and MV.

I thought it was going to be something like 6mm Creedmoor where you lose in BC but make up for it in MV...

I'm going to be waiting a while to see how this shakes out.
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,016
746
113
VA
#54
That's a HUGE oversight from a top ammo manufacturer!
Not sure how you can put the blame entirely on Federal. They developed the round along with some rifle manufacturers, the rifle manufacturers were the ones making the barrels, not Federal. They were also all going off of Sierras recommended twist which was 1:7 up until earlier this year when they changed it to 1:6.5.

It's hard to blame anyone really, the twist rate from Sierra is just a guideline as it can require more or less. Regardless though, Federal was the one making ammo, not chambering the 1:7 barrels. There were a lot of irons in the fire when it came to the development of the round and EVERYONE was specing 1:7.

The rifles should have been tested in more conditions and they clearly weren't. IMO that's up to the rifle manufacturers to do and make sure it works, not the ammo manufacturer.
 

lennyo3034

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 18, 2010
1,781
138
63
33
Southern MD
#55
wow, won't guarantee accuracy with the one and only factory match load out there (understanding hornady eldm is on the way)?
I had a conversation with JP on this and understand why they went with this. From their testing and from all I've heard about the 90 SMK, it is very jump sensitive. Factory ammo is loaded to 2.247" or so OAL, meaning the chamber would need a relatively short throats to shoot it well. Having a short throat like that would impact handloaders that want to take advantage of 6.8 mags that allow longer loading 2.310"-2.340".

When their first run of barrels came out, they were not happy with its 90 grain performance but it apparently performed stellar with 77s. They have us the option to buy those or wait for a barrel that handled 90s better. I chose to wait but am now regretting that decision.

I really hope Hornady develops a factory load using their 80 grain ELDm. If pushed 2850+ that will beat out the 90s at most distances.
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,016
746
113
VA
#56
They have us the option to buy those or wait for a barrel that handled 90s better. I chose to wait but am now regretting that decision.
By your own account that would indicate it's a chamber issue, not barrel issue. It's absolutely a twist issue too though since the same barrels have not shot the 90's well in colder temps but tighten up in warmer temps. I've never heard of the 90 SMK being an overly jump sensitive bullet though.

I don't know what the jump is in mine or my buddies Craddock barrels but the 6.5's and 6.7's hammer with 90gr FGMM, that's a clue to me.

I think you'll see more and more manufaturers offer ammo but just like the Creedmoor it's not going to catch on over night. I was actually surprised at how quickly Hornady dropped their ammo for it and also Starline making brass. I guess they think it's going to work and be around for a long time, I know I do.

My Craddock shoots so well with the Factory Federal that I have no reason to load for it but I'm tempted to try the 95gr SMK's now that some others are experimenting with them with good results. My LMT MLR I'm also certainly going to have to load for or depend on this Hornady ammo because of the 1:7 twist. I'm leaning pretty hard towards trying some 75gr ELD-M's and 80.5gr Fullbores.
 

lennyo3034

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 18, 2010
1,781
138
63
33
Southern MD
#57
It might be both? JP definitely seemed to think it was more chamber dimensions than barrel twist. I personally do not have a lot of experience with the 90 SMK but shoot with a lot of high power shooters that do. They seem to think it's jump sensitive. They also gravitate towards the 6.5 twist for them and think the 7 is not quite enough.

I'm looking at the 80 ELDm as I've jumped them from .020" to .120" and they all shot well out of my .223 bolt gun.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
3,071
770
113
59
Central Florida
#58
I am a bit interested because I might get a .224 barrel for an AR.

On the other hand, I've got a couple LR308s in 6.5 Creedmoor and I'm a bit confused, I think a 140 grain ELD-M beats that on BC and MV.

I thought it was going to be something like 6mm Creedmoor where you lose in BC but make up for it in MV...

I'm going to be waiting a while to see how this shakes out.
If I'm reading your post correctly, I think you are asking what is the point and hub-bub all about. I believe that the answer is that it does what it does in the small frame platform, meaning, you could just grab an upper in .224V and throw it on your existing lower and go out shooting well past 1000 yards. Even the best and most advanced AR10 receiver set still adds quite a bit of weight and size as compared to the AR15 platform.
 
Likes: Jhayesvw

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
679
267
63
#59
I decided to get off the fence and bought a TAC 6 barrel. It's essentially .224 Valkyrie necked up to 6mm.

The funny thing about it is that it shoots a bigger, heavier bullet faster than the .224 with B.C.s that are pretty darn close to the .224 bullets and no twist rate issues.

I'm not sure if .224 is legal for much hunting, I know that there are caliber restrictions that effect .223 on some game. 6mm should not have that issue.

Bullet choice is very good, many more than the .224 heavies available for Valkyrie.

I'm going to start with the 105 RDF.
 

craigos

craigos from Scout 2015
Feb 11, 2017
1,811
67
48
PNW
#61
So if Sierra clearly recommends a 1:6.5 or faster twist, why are so many companies selling a 1:7 twist?
Sierra changed their packaging/reco once i think people complained perhaps .. as the 224 was being touted, 1:7 was the norm, folks started shooting 1:7 barrels (though i suspect they were not true 1:7) and so Sierra decided to change their packaging?. On midway ~ 3 months ago the sierra spec said 1:7 on the 90 gr, picked up 2 boxes the other day, text on boow says 1:6.5.

My JP shoots .5 MOA on the 1:7 with the 90s, but am looking forward to the 88ELDs to see if can shrink that even more
 
Likes: Jeffd

JesseB81

New Hide Member
May 1, 2018
48
15
8
#62
I just got off the phone with Sierra. Nice group of people. They claim that they have always recommended a 1:6.5 twist for the 90g SMK, however I’m not sure I believe that was communicated to the manufacturer of barrels. They admit they have received numerous complaints and concerns regarding the accuracy of that round while other shooters claim it’s a laser. There doesn’t seem to be an in between, either your rifle loves it or it doesn’t shoot worth a shit. I just ordered 200 Hornady 88g ELDMs from Midsouth
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,016
746
113
VA
#63
I just got off the phone with Sierra. Nice group of people. They claim that they have always recommended a 1:6.5 twist for the 90g SMK, however I’m not sure I believe that was communicated to the manufacturer of barrels. They admit they have received numerous complaints and concerns regarding the accuracy of that round while other shooters claim it’s a laser. There doesn’t seem to be an in between, either your rifle loves it or it doesn’t shoot worth a shit. I just ordered 200 Hornady 88g ELDMs from Midsouth
Until a few months ago their product page said they recommend a 1:7 or faster twist. You can also pull up old load data blogs from them that also show 1:7.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
3,071
770
113
59
Central Florida
#64
Wow. I am way behind the curve on this. I've got a 1:6.7 on order, and sorta expect decent results ( doesn't everybody?). At this point, I figure that whichever projectile mine likes will get my business. Simple and straightforward. Factory load? Even better.
 

JesseB81

New Hide Member
May 1, 2018
48
15
8
#65
Midsouth order of 88g is being delivered today. I contacted Hornady but no load data is being provided. Shouldn’t a company provide load data guidelines for a reloading component they sell? Should I just start low on the 90g data?
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,016
746
113
VA
#66
I contacted Hornady but no load data is being provided. Shouldn’t a company provide load data guidelines for a reloading component they sell?
They got the bullets on the market within a month of announcing them and you're complaining there's no load data yet? You must be new to the gun world. Less than a month after release for products to hit the shelves is phenomenal and I wouldn't be complaining about anything.

Honestly if you can't figure out what's a good safe starting point based on other data and then know how to watch from pressure signs then you probably shouldn't be loading in the first place.
 

JesseB81

New Hide Member
May 1, 2018
48
15
8
#68
They got the bullets on the market within a month of announcing them and you're complaining there's no load data yet? You must be new to the gun world. Less than a month after release for products to hit the shelves is phenomenal and I wouldn't be complaining about anything.

Honestly if you can't figure out what's a good safe starting point based on other data and then know how to watch from pressure signs then you probably shouldn't be loading in the first place.
Don’t be a cunt. Are you insinuating this company created a bullet without testing and documenting? Of course they know what powders create what pressures.
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,016
746
113
VA
#69
Don’t be a cunt. Are you insinuating this company created a bullet without testing and documenting? Of course they know what powders create what pressures.
LOL because it's just that simple to figure out idiot proof load data for 20 different types of powder that is just a fraction of the powder types that people want to see. Testing a bullet to make sure it flies right is way different than providing data. Alliant was in development with Federal with the cartridge and it's a commercial variant of Alliant powders that Federal uses in the ammo... Alliant only released the data a few months ago and it's very limited. You have no clue what's involved, trust me if they could produce the data that they needed to overnight they'd do it just to keep people like you from calling and asking for what's not available yet.

It's still only a guideline, it's always on the conservative side of pressure, and there's so many other variables involved that it's never going to be any more of a loose guideline which is why we do load development.

If you need your hand held that badly then perhaps you should just buy the loaded ammo. Or stick to golf.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#73
Has anyone successfully pushed an 88 eldm over 3300 fps from a 7 twist? At 3160-3180 I was spinning jackets off with my 22x47Lapua. Anyone else pushing then fast? They are suppose to handle 3500fps according to a Hornady tech.... Not the phone techs either.
 

Niles Coyote

Gunny Sergeant
Aug 13, 2007
3,784
136
63
South West, MI
#74
Had the same happen last evening with 90 smk's in my 7 twist 22-250AI at 3080fps. Shot 34 and only 29 made it to the targets. Seemed to come apart between 2 and 3 hundred when they failed. 7t green Mountain barrel with conventional rifling.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#75
Coyote, I swapped to the eld-m because I had the same issue with 90 smk. Out of a 7 twist at 3200 the 90 smk jacket was so unstable it wouldn't group even in the rare case it did make it to the target. I was getting closer to 70% fail rate at those speeds. I was told the 88 could handle 3500fps, but obviously that's not the case from my experiences. I sent a couple of the boxes back to Hornady for them to try out. Hopefully I hear something back soon.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
3,071
770
113
59
Central Florida
#76
Coyote, I swapped to the eld-m because I had the same issue with 90 smk. Out of a 7 twist at 3200 the 90 smk jacket was so unstable it wouldn't group even in the rare case it did make it to the target. I was getting closer to 70% fail rate at those speeds. I was told the 88 could handle 3500fps, but obviously that's not the case from my experiences. I sent a couple of the boxes back to Hornady for them to try out. Hopefully I hear something back soon.
How long is your barrel?
 

JesseB81

New Hide Member
May 1, 2018
48
15
8
#77
We’ve went full circle and are back to blaming ammo. Just an observation not a bash. Maybe it’s a combination of reamers and ammo issues.
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,350
278
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#78
If you guys would list your type of rifling - 4 groove, 5R, 6, etc, maybe we could find a common denominator of what works best and what doesn't.

I ordered a 6 groove hoping that would be easier on jackets but I'll be around 2850 fps in 223AI.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#79
I'm shooting a bartlein 26" 7 twist in light varmint. I don't think there is anything wrong with my rifle. I shot the 80 ELDm's up to 3350 with zero issues at all. The jacket on them held up fine. I knew I'd be pushing the envelope with the 90 smk, but wanted to try it anyways. The 88 eld-m's are suppose to handle 3500fps from a 7 twist according to a bullet tech at Hornady, or whatever they are called. Received news a little bit ago that they are looking at the bullets now. I'll let you know what they tell me. I'm not sure what they did with the jacket, but I wonder if they thinned it out some to add more material to get the 8 grains, or if they swapped to a different jacket maybe. Has anyone pushed them over 3200 with a 7 twist?
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,350
278
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#82
This reminds me of my 20x47L project using 55gr Bergers at 3830 fps.

Inside of 300 rounds it was awesome, then those bullets started blowing up and even slowed down to 3600 fps they wouldn't work.

Probably a firecracked throat??? I don't have a borescope.

Sometimes when you live on the edge you fall off...
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#83
The issue with that Steve is that I wasn't near the pressures you were. I'm pushing 80ish grains at 3100-3200 using h1000 powder. Pushing these bullets hard would put me in the 3500+fps range... I'm running a very mild load with a relatively cool/slow powder. I'm hoping it was just a jacket issue with one lot... If not I'm going to be sitting on a bunch of bullets that aren't any good to me. I purchased 1k thinking this was going to be the perfect bullet for the big bore .224 PRS stuff.
 

Niles Coyote

Gunny Sergeant
Aug 13, 2007
3,784
136
63
South West, MI
#84
My Green Mountain barrel 22-250AI is a 6 lands and groves.

I just looked with my Lyman
borecam after a cleaning and wow... the entire length of the bore resembles that of a file, as if the button when pushed/pulled through didn't have enough lube and chattered a micrometer at a time. Of course I know Green Mountain isn't premium and their price reflects that, but it's no wonder my 90smks were having issues.

I'll try 88's and see if I have better luck.

Who knows, it did need a good cleaning and that could have played a role too.
 

224VALMAN

New Hide Member
Jun 24, 2018
15
6
3
#85
I checked with my local shop and Hornady told them it would be about 3rd week of July before they would be shipping them the ammo orders.
The 224 VAL really needs a 1 : 6.5 Twist rate to shoot the 90 and 95 grain SMK's. I believe we are buying a bunch of barrels that were originally 1:7 223 and reamed out to 224 VAL as to get on the market quick.

I eventually want to get a Shilen or ER Shaw Barrel that is 1 : 6.5 for my 22-250 Savage Model 12 .
 
May 2, 2012
60
4
8
51
#88
Has anyone got their hands on any yet? They were saying at dealers in June. June is about gone, but that's par for the corse on release dates. I'd like to find out if it opens up better on impact than the 90 SMKs.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#90
I ordered 1000 of the bullets a month ago. They actually were released to midsouth early. I was really excited about this bullet, but I don't think it will work at the velocity I want it to. Hopefully I hear back from Hornady sometime soon.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#91
Talked to Dustin from Hornady. They shot the 88eldm out of their 22 creedmoor up to 3400 with zero issues. I'm waiting to hear information about their barrel, but I'm betting it was a 6groove button rifle. Also, the jackets are the exact same jackets used by their 80 eldm, but they have been basically drawn out to work with the 88eldm, so they are in fact thinner than the 80eldm. I'm being sent a couple new boxes of 88 eldm from a different lot and am sending my gun to my gunsmiths while I'm on vacation so he can test them out. He also has a 7 twist Dasher that I believe is a 4 groove that he is going to test with as well. I'll keep you guys updated on how this progresses. Also, midsouthshooterssupply has blemished 80 ELDm's for anyone wanting a cheap way to try them out. Like $75/500.
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,350
278
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#92
The issue with that Steve is that I wasn't near the pressures you were. I'm pushing 80ish grains at 3100-3200 using h1000 powder. Pushing these bullets hard would put me in the 3500+fps range... I'm running a very mild load with a relatively cool/slow powder. I'm hoping it was just a jacket issue with one lot... If not I'm going to be sitting on a bunch of bullets that aren't any good to me. I purchased 1k thinking this was going to be the perfect bullet for the big bore .224 PRS stuff.
All these heavy 90ish 22 cal bullets have always been finicky! The FPS launched with overbore conditions, the rifling type and amount, premature barrel and/or throat wear, it's a challenge finding what works!!!!

Concerning my 20x47L, it's not about pressure or speed, it's something to do with "that barrel doesn't abide with that bullet, as it wore". Actually the load I found that works was 40 grainers at 4100 fps. Why, who knows???

These bullet manufacturers need to make thicker jackets and bond the core. It's stupid the consumer has had to fret about whether a bullet should do it's job.
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#93
So I'd like to correct my earlier statement.. I have a 4 groove cut barrel, which is much rougher than a 6 groove button riffled barrel. The heavier bullets are more prone to jacket separation because they are usually match bullets that have much thinner jackets. The lighter varmint bullets are always able to handle more RPM's because of the thicker jacket. I think a 5r or 6 groove barrel would probably be fine..but definitely the 6 groove. Unfortunately I went with a 7 twist and 4 groove.
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,350
278
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#94
I just got my 88ELDM's in, man they are a sleek looking bullet aren't they.

I hope GS gets my barrel throated soon!

Again, I anticipate only getting 2850 fps or so, these things better stay together, or else Hornady is getting an ear full!!!! Fingers crossed...
 

mbania

New Hide Member
Jan 23, 2018
12
1
3
Pleasant City, Ohio
#95
I just got my 88ELDM's in, man they are a sleek looking bullet aren't they.

I hope GS gets my barrel throated soon!

Again, I anticipate only getting 2850 fps or so, these things better stay together, or else Hornady is getting an ear full!!!! Fingers crossed...
I think with a 5r or 6 grooved button rifle I'd be fine. They tested them up to 3400 for according to Dustin at Hornady. My issue was I had a cut 4 groove which is much rougher on the jackets, especially at the rpms I was pushing them. You'll be fine. They are definitely slick though!
 
Likes: steve123
Top Bottom