I attended a no name class...

Austinjunks

Medic, kinda...
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Feb 2, 2019
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SO, I attended a local ish basic precision rifle class with an outfit I have never heard of before. I know, I know, this can only end well. The day started with us meeting in the parking lot of the local community college in ammunition laden vehicles. I don't have an issue with this, but the state might. We drove to a farm property where the range was located. I can dig, its middle Georgia, that's not an unusual occurrence. The instructor introduced himself and told us about his experience as a Marine scout sniper. He then proceeded to start the "classroom" portion of the instruction. It lasted no more than 30 minutes and provided nothing of value (pictures will be provided of the handouts). So now that everyone knows what they are doing... Nothing was said about safety prior to flagging each other repeatedly. So lets zero, er confirm zero, no your not even on paper... The loner rifles were not zeroed, the "assistant" who was also attending the class, wasn't even on paper and I had to zero his rifle for him (fml). There goes half the day... We then proceeded to shoot at a KYL at 100, 200 and 300 from the prone, not the worst route but when did we discuss shooting positions, oh we didn't. Oh squirrel, lets do range estimations and mil some targets! "20 inch plate is x mills, use this formula and give me a range." Its a fucking 12 inch plate and this dude cant figure out why everyone's math is wrong... Sweet, we all got it wrong, now to speed shooting drills and tannerite... What in the actual fuck is going on? I sent him an email that is probably way nicer than it should have been.

"
Hey ****,

I want to preface by saying I do not doubt your abilities or knowledge, but I have some criticism of the precision rifle course you hosted. Please take this as me being constructive and not slanderous. I know I am far from a professional trigger man, but I see room for improvement. My thoughts will be listed in bullet points and blurbs; I’m no English major, so please keep that in mind while navigating my ramblings.

It is arbitrary and everyone is tired of hearing it, but safe handling of firearms should always be addressed, especially during a beginner’s course. At a minimum discuss the conditions in which a firearm will be set aside and pointed when not on a firing line.

When it comes to precision rifle, every point of pressure and how you contact the rifle influences your shot. Having an appropriately fit rifle is, in my opinion, more important than an accurate rifle. Fitting a rifle should be addressed before a single shot is fired. Length of pull, comb height, eye relief, scope height and bipod setup. These are things that should be done prior to arrival. Many courses, in the firearms industry and others, issue a prep booklet. Similar to a match booklet for 2-day matches, discussing what should be done prior to arrival and in preparation of the event. I think this could be a great resource and used to address many things.

Bringing a zeroed rifle is crucial. It was half our day. I understand confirming zero, I was 2/10ths high today, but if you aren’t on paper something is wrong. Period.

When talking positional shooting or just basic positions, discussing natural point of aim is crucial. Understanding how you address the rifle will affect how it points is an integral part of fundamentals.

While we are on the subject of fundamentals, if you start the class stating that fundamentals are the foundation of shooting, please correct issues with people’s fundamentals. I understand that your desire to have media of a newly introduced course, but leading people to believe they are succeeding where they are not will ultimately be a hindrance and not a help on their shooting journey.

Your explanation of external ballistics and drop was nonexistent. Understanding how a bullet’s trajectory can be calculated and determined based on easily extrapolated data is the foundation of shooting at range. Ballistic calculators are plentiful and free. 3 DOF point mass calculators are simple to use and easy to true, with even more precise calculators costing less than a nice steak dinner. Even if you don’t want to get into ballistic drop data and calculators, how are you not asking people to record DOPE? Understanding the important factors involved data collection is essential to furthering this sport successfully.

Wind, good God, that range is perfect to train wind. Telling people how to quickly determine wind’s values and speeds can be is awesome. After that, please tell them how to precisely calculate it. I had 2 kestrels in my box that everyone could have used. After discussing wind speeds, corrections are the next logical step. At least understanding the basic ballistics to determine your guns MPH. This was the biggest disappointment to me. Those winds could teach so much.

RAPID TARGET ENGAGEMENT IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS. If you wish to address rapid target engagement, please, for the love of God, address acceptable sight picture and wobble zone. These are not hard to explain and can add so much value to that drill set.

When addressing multiple targets on a rack, range, shooting lane, etc., color them differently, number them or have different shapes. “1st from the right, 2nd from the right, 3rd...” etc. What’s wrong with 1,2,3,4?

Dude, I want you to do well. I understand this is your first go at precision rifle classes, but step it up. If you need help putting stuff together, I can give you some great resources. I don’t want this to come off as snotty or uppity, I just want to help a community I proudly consider myself a member of. A community that I enjoy."

Attached is the course hand out.
 

Attachments

Rusted Nut

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How much did you pay for this class? Did you ask for your money back? did any of the other students even question the way he was teaching the class?
 
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Austinjunks

Medic, kinda...
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How much did you pay for this class? Did you ask for your money back? did any of the other students even question the way he was teaching the class?
The "class" was $50 a head and I didn't ask for my money back, not trying to be a Karen. The other student who don't k ow any better are leaving him great reviews.
 

pmclaine

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The "class" was $50 a head and I didn't ask for my money back, not trying to be a Karen. The other student who don't k ow any better are leaving him great reviews.

I think you got your moneys worth, range time on a new range.

Classes are not cheap in my experience.
 

pmclaine

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I had no illusions that it would be a life changing experience, but fuck me. I'm a big proponent of supporting local business trying to expand, and I want to see people do well.

That level class he needs facilities. He should have a classroom. Expect to spend half the first day sitting in class and a third of the next. Two days. Any class that doesn't start out with a formal safety sheet the entire class reads through is a warning. That sheet requires signatures/acknowledgement of liability - safety is real.

I wouldn't call what you attended a class. Better described as "Pay me $50 and you can shoot while I talk"

Your AO has to have some legitimate trainers.

My expectations for class are "Two Fiddy" a day instruction and add another half the total cost of the instruction for ammo.
 

Mr. Zick

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So what’s the water line on acceptable class cost? I recently paid $180 for a 1 day positional course at a range with an informative class in an actual classroom on site, tablets that marked and numbered your shots on the square range (witchcraft), and a knowledgeable instructor. My only bitch was we didn’t shoot at all over 500y on a range that goes to 1200, but it was advertised as a positional class.
 
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pmclaine

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So what’s the water line on acceptable class cost? I recently paid $180 for a 1 day positional course at a range with an informative class in an actual classroom on site, tablets that marked and numbered your shots on the square range (witchcraft), and a knowledgeable instructor. My only bitch was we didn’t shoot at all over 500y on a range that goes to 1200, but it was advertised as a positional class.

Sounds like a great class.

Did they critique your position/instruct?

As this wasn't a beginner class, class time would be less.

One day class, with people above the level of PSRI - hour or two in class at start with most of the discussion devoted to safety/introductions.

PSRI at Sig is three days. You spend two thirds or more of first day in class.

PSRII is two days - 2 hours perhaps three in class.

PSR Skill Builder - 1 Day - Introductions and safety than shoot.
 
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Mr. Zick

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Sounds like a great class.

Did they critique your position/instruct?

As this wasn't a beginner class, class time would be less.

One day class, with people above the level of PSRI - hour or two in class with most of the discussion devoted to safety.
Jim See 2 day class slammed into 1 day. We did 4hrs class work and covered concepts and procedures quickly. I would say an hour of it was safety related, but most in the class were LE or comp shooters. Range time was the best instruction I’ve received in my limited experience, I saw marked improvement quickly with the tweaks provided, and I will be attending again this spring when he comes back for the 2 day. Doesn’t hurt that the range is 10 min from my house.
 
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rustyinbend

GySgt USMC 1976-1992
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Going to "THIS CLASS" in Utah in April - put on by Long Range Shooters of Utah ... reviews and preparation lead me to believe it is the polar "opposite" of what you experienced. Hell ... before they'd register me I had to send photos of my rifle (going with my 300-WM Barrett MRAD and a Leupold Mark5 5-25), and target photos proving sub-MOA groups at 100 Yards to verify zero. The list of pre-class requirements and required gear is extensive. Looks like a really professional grade class. It better be ... I'm driving to Utah from Oregon to take it. (PS: It's "not" $50.)
 

Austinjunks

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Shooting tannerite for $50?

SCORE!!!!!!!

That’s a ridiculously low price and a red flag.
Like I said, I wasn't expecting anything substantial. But everybody starts somewhere, and supporting local folks is something I feel the industry needs. The class being full of misinformation and neglecting basics just frustrates me.
 

Rusted Nut

Private
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Jan 11, 2020
10
6
6
The "class" was $50 a head and I didn't ask for my money back, not trying to be a Karen. The other student who don't k ow any better are leaving him great reviews.
the saddest part is the other guys left there thinking that they learned something, I have to deal with this all the time at work. Guys come in repeating junk "knowledge" that they hold as gospel because some guy that said he was a sniper told them it was true. It's twice as hard to get them to convert over to the right way of doing things and half of them still won't believe me because I'm not in the military and never was a sniper so what do I know.
 
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pmclaine

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This is Sigs PSR offerings page.....

 
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dzander

Grandpa Dave
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Jan 21, 2018
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The second time someone pointed their muzzle at me I'd have been out of there.
Sorry, this is not a game. While it's a shit load of fun it will be life changing when someone gets shot accidentally. You were experienced and know better, how many others weren't.
Even some experienced guys get complacent once in a while.
Just my opinion
 
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M8541Reaper

Super Boot
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Jul 23, 2011
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SO, I attended a local ish basic precision rifle class with an outfit I have never heard of before. I know, I know, this can only end well. The day started with us meeting in the parking lot of the local community college in ammunition laden vehicles. I don't have an issue with this, but the state might. We drove to a farm property where the range was located. I can dig, its middle Georgia, that's not an unusual occurrence. The instructor introduced himself and told us about his experience as a Marine scout sniper. He then proceeded to start the "classroom" portion of the instruction. It lasted no more than 30 minutes and provided nothing of value (pictures will be provided of the handouts). So now that everyone knows what they are doing... Nothing was said about safety prior to flagging each other repeatedly. So lets zero, er confirm zero, no your not even on paper... The loner rifles were not zeroed, the "assistant" who was also attending the class, wasn't even on paper and I had to zero his rifle for him (fml). There goes half the day... We then proceeded to shoot at a KYL at 100, 200 and 300 from the prone, not the worst route but when did we discuss shooting positions, oh we didn't. Oh squirrel, lets do range estimations and mil some targets! "20 inch plate is x mills, use this formula and give me a range." Its a fucking 12 inch plate and this dude cant figure out why everyone's math is wrong... Sweet, we all got it wrong, now to speed shooting drills and tannerite... What in the actual fuck is going on? I sent him an email that is probably way nicer than it should have been.

"
Hey ****,

I want to preface by saying I do not doubt your abilities or knowledge, but I have some criticism of the precision rifle course you hosted. Please take this as me being constructive and not slanderous. I know I am far from a professional trigger man, but I see room for improvement. My thoughts will be listed in bullet points and blurbs; I’m no English major, so please keep that in mind while navigating my ramblings.

It is arbitrary and everyone is tired of hearing it, but safe handling of firearms should always be addressed, especially during a beginner’s course. At a minimum discuss the conditions in which a firearm will be set aside and pointed when not on a firing line.

When it comes to precision rifle, every point of pressure and how you contact the rifle influences your shot. Having an appropriately fit rifle is, in my opinion, more important than an accurate rifle. Fitting a rifle should be addressed before a single shot is fired. Length of pull, comb height, eye relief, scope height and bipod setup. These are things that should be done prior to arrival. Many courses, in the firearms industry and others, issue a prep booklet. Similar to a match booklet for 2-day matches, discussing what should be done prior to arrival and in preparation of the event. I think this could be a great resource and used to address many things.

Bringing a zeroed rifle is crucial. It was half our day. I understand confirming zero, I was 2/10ths high today, but if you aren’t on paper something is wrong. Period.

When talking positional shooting or just basic positions, discussing natural point of aim is crucial. Understanding how you address the rifle will affect how it points is an integral part of fundamentals.

While we are on the subject of fundamentals, if you start the class stating that fundamentals are the foundation of shooting, please correct issues with people’s fundamentals. I understand that your desire to have media of a newly introduced course, but leading people to believe they are succeeding where they are not will ultimately be a hindrance and not a help on their shooting journey.

Your explanation of external ballistics and drop was nonexistent. Understanding how a bullet’s trajectory can be calculated and determined based on easily extrapolated data is the foundation of shooting at range. Ballistic calculators are plentiful and free. 3 DOF point mass calculators are simple to use and easy to true, with even more precise calculators costing less than a nice steak dinner. Even if you don’t want to get into ballistic drop data and calculators, how are you not asking people to record DOPE? Understanding the important factors involved data collection is essential to furthering this sport successfully.

Wind, good God, that range is perfect to train wind. Telling people how to quickly determine wind’s values and speeds can be is awesome. After that, please tell them how to precisely calculate it. I had 2 kestrels in my box that everyone could have used. After discussing wind speeds, corrections are the next logical step. At least understanding the basic ballistics to determine your guns MPH. This was the biggest disappointment to me. Those winds could teach so much.

RAPID TARGET ENGAGEMENT IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS. If you wish to address rapid target engagement, please, for the love of God, address acceptable sight picture and wobble zone. These are not hard to explain and can add so much value to that drill set.

When addressing multiple targets on a rack, range, shooting lane, etc., color them differently, number them or have different shapes. “1st from the right, 2nd from the right, 3rd...” etc. What’s wrong with 1,2,3,4?

Dude, I want you to do well. I understand this is your first go at precision rifle classes, but step it up. If you need help putting stuff together, I can give you some great resources. I don’t want this to come off as snotty or uppity, I just want to help a community I proudly consider myself a member of. A community that I enjoy."

Attached is the course hand out.
Did he actually say he was a USMC Scout Sniper or did he say he was a USMC PMI and DM instructor? I ask because SS isn’t on his company’s team bio page.
 

Fig

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SS or DM would make much more sense than a PMI. PMI would never skip a safety brief or this rust pickin’ squid would put my foot in his ass regardless of the consequences!
 

Fig

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I will say, I would not pick one Jim’s PRS clinics for a brand new or novice marksman.
I’ve never taken one of Franks classes, but in Jim’s he pretty much had us all take a couple of shots prone, one at a time with him watching, at the start of the practical skills portion just to make sure we were fundamentally correct. He did not offer much in the way of fundamental instruction like Frank appears to do. Not that I am at all saying experienced marksmen don’t benefit from having their fundamentals surveyed and critiqued (a certainty), just that the clinic I attended assumed you had at least passable fundamentals if not mastery, and the focus was on PRS skills (the game).
 

M8541Reaper

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SS or DM would make much more sense than a PMI. PMI would never skip a safety brief or this rust pickin’ squid would put my foot in his ass regardless of the consequences!
1CF2F0C9-B838-432E-9E06-4E76917EEFF0.png
His bio literally claims that his entire career has been formal instructor positions. 🤷🏻‍♀️

EDIT: Removed my personal ramblings lol
 
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pmclaine

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I need a picture.

I have a vision in my mind of what the instructor looked like.

I hate to judge books by the cover but with the bio, Id expect a lifetime of discipline and a certain "look".

Based on the description of how the class was run that party didn't display what that bio would produce.
 
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M8541Reaper

Super Boot
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I need a picture.

I have a vision in my mind of what the instructor looked like.

I hate to judge books by the cover but with the bio, Id expect a lifetime of discipline and a certain "look".

Based on the description of how the class was run that party didn't display what that bio would produce.
Google the company that’s at the top of the first handout or input the website at the top of the picture I attached.
 

Racer88

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I didn't find a website, but found a Facebook page. So, I've gotta ask... what is the deal with the "tactical spooning" in this "spotting exercise" video???

1583011072854.png

Did he respond to your email?
 

Racer88

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Thanks. Not much info there on the website. I found this curious:

1583012954711.png

100 rounds of ammo for a defensive pistol course??

I'm no expert or "operator." But, I did take a defensive pistol course once. It was a 2-day course. 1200 rounds. Also, no tactical spooning. ;)

100 rounds is nothing.
 
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pmclaine

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Google the company that’s at the top of the first handout or input the website at the top of the picture I attached.

Okay that's his in service picture.

From the description of the manner in which the class was run I had this in mind......

See the source image


My apologies to fine Americans that may exceed standard BMI's - I am there with you but perhaps in error I have this expectation that if someone is claiming "Rifle Ninja" than they kind of fit the ill conceived perception I have.........trucker hat guy will likely shoot me in the face from 2500 yards with a .22.
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
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Everyone is always the best until the day you see them perform. Duh. That’s why the trick is to talk down yourself and act surprised when it goes well lol.

No one ever acts like they have been to the Super Bowl before anymore.