Help with S&B Klassik

wigwamitus

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Ok, I got this S&B Scope from PRG Defense to test out for a Group Buy ... I mounted on 5.56(18) mk12 ish ... and dialed the turrets to zero it ... the windage got centered just fine ... but the elevation ran out of head room still 7 inches low at 50yds ...

A manual came with it ... and per the manual these are the "BDC" turrets. The manual says "Remove caps and easily adjust" ... I love it !!! :D



I'm hoping turning those little red screws in there is gonna help .. but I'd really like to hear from someone who has done it greater than zero times which way to turn which screw and what turning them does :D

Thanks !!!
 

rth1800

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I have used several of the 3-12 hunting type S&B’s.
No issues.
I don’t think the screws are for end user adjustment.
I know you are a careful guy but are your rings on the rail correctly?
Any issues with other scopes on that rail?
Could try that scope on a different rifle.
I could be called a S&B fanboy but would be very surprised if that scope has an issue.
I have used literally dozens of them with only one electro illumination issue on one of the USMC scopes.
 
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Guthwine

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How does the cap look like on the inside, that is to say where does it interact with the turret? Does it "hook" into the teeth of that ring? Can you turn that ring? If yes, then this ring should be how you adjust it, without opening the screws.
Since the red glue/paste is usually something you use for screws that are not to be opened (sealing or lock), you are right to be careful. :)
 

wigwamitus

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Here's the insides of "the cap" ...



As to the interface between the caps and the turret base, there are two "buttons" . One button, on the outer ring cap, the lower one shown in the pic, moves back and forth in the "grove" you can see around the turret base in the original pic. The other button, is on the turrent base and "clicks" when you turn the outer ring cap past one of the metal stops on the ring cap.

And yes, that is how you adjust from outside the turret ... you can dial up and you can dial down. But when dialing up ... I hit resistance and POI was still 7 inches below POA. The manual seems to call these "BDC" turrets, though I'm not sure why. The number scale on both the windages and elevation turret runs from -10 to 0 to +10.

I'm just not familiar with S&B scopes. I will try to see if I can find a USA based service center. If there is none, I guess I can try to email to Germany. Interestingly, the manual has a Hungarian address and there is an email, so I could try that email as well.

It did occur to me that perhaps this scope has a rather narrow adjustment range and maybe it was configured to run on a 20 moa rail, whereas I have it on a 0 moa rail. This gun happened to be between scopes, so it was available to test with. I'll have to decide if I want to "break" one of my 20 moa rail guns to test on one of those. Will exhaust other options first.
 

rth1800

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S&B USA is in Winchester VA IIRC. The major domo Jerry is often on SH site. They can get your scope fixed up. Very good to work with.
Just google S&B USA.
Let me know if I can help.
RTH
 

wigwamitus

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And to be clear .. I don't think the scope is "broke" ... I just need to know how to "adjust" it so I can get POI = POA !

==
I'll hunt down S&B in Winchester VA ... thx !
 

Guthwine

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Having both go from -10 to +10 is indeed strange. Allthough it the fact that the grooves for the clicks all are at the same intervalls would indicate that it is just regular clicks and not a bdc.

So in the end there are only two options. Either the elevation screw is at it's end stop or the "button" hits the end of the groove. If it is the latter then you should be able to turn the "naked" turret further in that direction.
What adjustment range should you have according to the manual?
 

wigwamitus

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I turned the turret thru about 2 full revolutions ... and then met resistance and stopped. So turned it passed the number range on the turret.

I found a USA support email address for S&B and sent them an email with pics and description. We will see what they have to say.

The manual does not specify the elevation adjustment range !! :unsure:
 

wigwamitus

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rth I texted u a pic of the info side of the scope with the Cat (alogue) No. and serial number etc. It looks "well used" ... I'd guess 15 years old or so ... maybe older ...

Like I said, the manual has a hungarian address ... but maybe that's just where S&B were having their manuals printed in those days ?

But I doubt it is 30 years old ... maybe 20 at the tops.

==
 

Guthwine

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Hmm, from what it sounds like, I would guess, that it really has not enough adjustment space, but let us know what the guys from S&B say.
 

Palmetto-Pride

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Sure you already know this, but just in case.............Those are CW turrets meaning to move impact up you turn them clockwise and to move impact down you turn them counter clockwise.........Sometimes the simplest things can get overlooked...... :unsure:
 

wigwamitus

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Yup, I was able to center the windage ... and move then elevation up 5 inches (it started 12 inches low) ...
but then the elevation topped out at 7 inches low.

Haven't heard back from S&B yet.

I remounted scope on .300WM which has a 20 moa rail ... I was try to zero with that today.
 

wigwamitus

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Ok, went out and shot 6 rds with the .300WM at 50yds ... with the Klassic scope.



I was shooting at NRA 100yd target. First round was in the "8" number but correct on elevation. Clicked for right, second round was on the line between 8 and 7 but correct on elevation but I was out of clicks. Removed the cap and reset it to "zero" .. then clicked over 10 clicks (max) and was on the "x" ring to the left of the "x" ... then removed the cap and reset to zero and clicked 4 clicks and hit the center of the "X". Then removed and reset cap to zero. So that's apparently how it works.
The cap gives you 20 clicks plus on minus from the "zero". If you need more you remove the cap and reset it to zero and dial some more and repeat until you are where you want to be. Then remove cap and reset to zero and that is your "zero".

Per the manual a "click" is 1 cm at 100m.

So 19 cm at 100m so that's about 1/10th of a mil per click ... so 19 10ths of a mil up and 19 10ths of a mil down.

So, if you were gonna use this for "long distance", you would have to be resetting the turret and keeping track of those resets. Hum.

Or you could reset to maximum "down" and have 39 clicks up ... or 3.9 mils up. But you'd have to use the target/critter as the reticle if you were gonna hold down as this is a duplex reticle.

If I'm getting this right, then this scope is probably not intended to be a long distance scope ! :)

If I "zeroed" at 300yds ... with 39 clicks up ... I could dial to 655yds which is essentially 600m .. and my maximum down hold (with my 20 inch barrel .308 with 175gr FGMM) which be 7 inches at 165m ...
So I'd consider that viable ... but that about the size of it.

==
Now if you thought of this as a "huntin" scope .. and double zeroed at somewhere around 50/200 yds .. then you'd have all the clicks you needed to be dead on within 50 to 300yds ... with the elevation zero set to zero. Maybe that's how these scopes were intended to be used. I know nothing about S&B scopes, so I have to guess.

I still have not heard from S&B support. Maybe they don't do "email" ??

I'll try to call them Thursday.
 
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wigwamitus

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Really !!?? What was the dialing range on that scope ? I never owned a scope before 2012 ... and my first 4 scopes were L&S Mk4s ... so I've never had a european huntin' scope ... but that's what these are is that right ? Not really designed to be "sniper" scopes ?
In VN War Carlos Hathcock was using an 8x unertl ... but somehow he was dialing for 1,000+yds with his 173gr .3006 cartridge ...
But I think that was a purpose built sniper (long distance) scope. Versus a purpose built hunting scope.
 

wigwamitus

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Ok, Now that I know how it works ... I will put it back on the 5.56(18) and retry that. I should be able to zero it now.

One point to make is that these scopes have a laser filter ...



and I don't see why they would have a laser filter if they weren't being used as long distance ... or at least "intermediate" distance scopes ... like out to 500-600 meters. It's just hard to imagine the users of these scopes unscrewing the elevation cap, reseting it, screwing it back down ... in the middle of a fight ... but maybe they did. Just curious about how people really use these scopes in the field.

Any thoughts ?
 

XTREM HTR16

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You might try to get Jerry from S&B USA here on the hide to help you. I don’t recall his username.

I can’t tell what your elevation turret is, mil or MOA? Mil looks like this and has 3.2 mils of travel (goes to 32 which is 3.2 mils)



 
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XTREM HTR16

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The scope is also called the “Precision Hunter” with BDC dial. I know there’s a MOA version but I don’t know how much elevation travel it has. I have two of the mil versions and they’re great for a 500 to 600 yard hunting rifle if you zero at 200.
 

Guthwine

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My ZF58 (sorry not 69) has 15 MIL elevation and 8 MIL Windage adjustment and has a BDC Turret that goes from 1 to 8 hundred meters. It was made for the Austrian SSG58 (a repurposed Mauser after the war). And it was clearly made for an armorer to zero, because if you turn the elevation too far without the bdc cap on, the main screw unscrews into the scope and the elevation becomes useless.

Generally I would think that the adjustment for european scopes is always in some MIL increments. (Or "Strich", which is the old artillery name for MIL)

Maybe they refurbished these S&B scopes and only had windage caps left over so they used them also for the elevation!? Would be unusual but with old scopes you never know.
Or it really is just a hunting scope made for the classic european hunter. They usually hand their rifles to the gunsmith, who zeroes it at 100m and then they never touch the scope again. They use holdovers and rarely shoot at game thats further away than 200 meters.
 
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wigwamitus

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Thanks for the details !!!

... They use holdovers and rarely shoot at game thats further away than 200 meters
So with a duplex reticle .. that means you are using the critter as the reticle for your holding ... instead of dialing ... which sounds fine ... for large enough critters ... and for most 30 cal rifle cartridge combinations ... you should be pretty flat out to 200 meters anyway.

==
And FYI I got an email from "Jerry" at S&B and called and left a message.