Help* removing a bolt knob gunsmith glued on

Jan 9, 2012
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Waxahachie TX
#1
I have a Kelbys Atlas that I had a shop cerakote. This particular shop used bedding compound and glued the knob on. The knob needs to be removed now...How do I go about doing this? I have tried a towel and channel locks gently and can tell I will twist the handle before the knob breaks loose.
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
2,913
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#3
why the fuck did they glue it on?

have you tried heat?....hit that bolt knob with a torch, put your big boy pants on, and give it hell.......
 
Likes: Huskydriver
Jan 9, 2012
613
38
28
34
Waxahachie TX
#4
why the fuck did they glue it on?

have you tried heat?....hit that bolt knob with a torch, put your big boy pants on, and give it hell.......
If I told you who glued it on you would really say WTF. I have thought about heat. I may try that in a bit. I even thought about sending it to Kelbys to mess with.
 

Sniper266

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 16, 2018
178
50
28
California
www.california.gov
#7
Have you tried contacting the smith and asking exactly what he used to glue it on?

Heat will likely be your best friend to break down the adhesive, but if you know exactly what he used that may give you an idea as to how much heat you need
 

buffalowinter

Rick Jones MAJ, SF (Ret)
Mar 17, 2014
723
724
93
Llano, TX
#14
There is nothing wrong with securing bolt knobs with acraglas or loc-tite...you are a "hack" if you don't. "Hacks" are those who grab a wrench rather than putting heat (torch or heat gun) on it for 40 seconds and simply unscrew.
 

DellaDog

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 23, 2017
438
33
28
Dallas, TX
#15
There is nothing wrong with securing bolt knobs with acraglas or loc-tite...you are a "hack" if you don't. "Hacks" are those who grab a wrench rather than putting heat (torch or heat gun) on it for 40 seconds and simply unscrew.
Phew... I just recently blue loc-tited the knob on my Defiance Deviant cause I was tired of twisting it back on. First 1/2 dozen posts had me thinking I was an idiot. (Though I was pretty sure a bit of heat would get it off.)
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
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#17
Phew... I just recently blue loc-tited the knob on my Defiance Deviant cause I was tired of twisting it back on. First 1/2 dozen posts had me thinking I was an idiot. (Though I was pretty sure a bit of heat would get it off.)
Loctite is one thing........bedding compound is a bit extreme.....

my concern when i see bedding compound where regular thread locker would do, is that its usually put there to mask something, like poorly cut threads, or voids.
 
Jan 9, 2012
613
38
28
34
Waxahachie TX
#18
There is nothing wrong with securing bolt knobs with acraglas or loc-tite...you are a "hack" if you don't. "Hacks" are those who grab a wrench rather than putting heat (torch or heat gun) on it for 40 seconds and simply unscrew.
Awesome... I have made it to official "hack" status!

I have had rifles built or owned them from lots of guys. SAC, LRI, Crescent customs, yada yada. Never once have I seen bedding compound. Now loc-tite I have always seen.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Cottonwood AZ
#21
Would rather have it glued on, than have the threads strip out of an aluminium bolt knob at a match. Grabbing hold of a 5/16"stud under a time limit sucks!

A little bit of heat goes a long way when dealing with any adhesive. Glad you got it off without to much hassle.
 

CJS-6.5

Miss General Lee
Sep 15, 2017
315
69
28
#24
There is nothing wrong with securing bolt knobs with acraglas or loc-tite...you are a "hack" if you don't. "Hacks" are those who grab a wrench rather than putting heat (torch or heat gun) on it for 40 seconds and simply unscrew.
IN THE RULES IT SAYS YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO DO THIS!
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
2,913
3,459
113
#26
Would rather have it glued on, than have the threads strip out of an aluminium bolt knob at a match. Grabbing hold of a 5/16"stud under a time limit sucks!

A little bit of heat goes a long way when dealing with any adhesive. Glad you got it off without to much hassle.
What the fuck are you doing with your bolt to strip the threads out while shooting it?

If you’re stripping the threads out.... epoxy isn’t going to help you
 
Jun 22, 2009
881
0
16
47
Cottonwood AZ
#27
I fucking grabbed it! It wasn't even exceptionally hard, and it came off in my hand. That right after the first shot of a local match. I had 39 more rounds, with a pretty tight time limit.
 

buffalowinter

Rick Jones MAJ, SF (Ret)
Mar 17, 2014
723
724
93
Llano, TX
#28
"I fucking grabbed it! It wasn't even exceptionally hard, and it came off in my hand. That right after the first shot of a local match. I had 39 more rounds, with a pretty tight time limit. "


Exactly. Shit happens. Are you going to buy a new bolt...for a precision rifle...and then have to re-headspace? That's a lot of money and probably a long wait. Loctite won't hold stripped threads...Acraglas will.
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
2,913
3,459
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#30
"I fucking grabbed it! It wasn't even exceptionally hard, and it came off in my hand. That right after the first shot of a local match. I had 39 more rounds, with a pretty tight time limit. "


Exactly. Shit happens. Are you going to buy a new bolt...for a precision rifle...and then have to re-headspace? That's a lot of money and probably a long wait. Loctite won't hold stripped threads...Acraglas will.
presumably it was the bolt knob that stripped....and not the steel bolt handle.....i would just buy a new bolt knob....no need to rebuy the bolt.

if somehow i managed to strip the threads on the bolt handle.....ide rather fix it properly......either by cutting and welding on a new handle and tapping it.........or just straight up welding the bolt knob to it.

but this goes back to my initial point.

if someones using something more than loctite...chances are its because the threads are fucked up and theyre trying to bodge over it.


if i was in a match and i just needed to get my gun up and running.....yeah ide epoxy it and run the match.........if my gun is coming from a shop, ide be very skeptical if i found epoxy on it.
 
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308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
3,893
1,392
113
#31
"I fucking grabbed it! It wasn't even exceptionally hard, and it came off in my hand. That right after the first shot of a local match. I had 39 more rounds, with a pretty tight time limit. "


Exactly. Shit happens. Are you going to buy a new bolt...for a precision rifle...and then have to re-headspace? That's a lot of money and probably a long wait. Loctite won't hold stripped threads...Acraglas will.
What kind of a hack covers up stripped threads with epoxy?

If a knob just strips right out the threads were shit to begin with. We're back to whoever did it being a f-ing hack.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
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#32
If you strip out the threads of an aluminum bolt knob, the fix I would use is a keyed thread insert. A company that knew what they were doing would even use a good thread insert before it gets stripped out.

After your aluminum bolt knob has good steel threads in it, just a drop of blue Loktite should be all you need to keep it screwed on the bolt.
 

ken226

Sergeant
Sep 16, 2009
217
40
28
42
Washington
#35
This threads been helping me pass the time. Please forgive, but i wanna keep it going! "I fukin grabbed it!" For some reason, had me laughing. I laugh every time i read that.. 😂

Its been awhile since i used these formulas, but out of curiousity i did a quick-n-dirty on the thread pullout force of a 5/16-24 x 1/2 thread in 6061-t6. It came in at 5300lbs. Its unlikely that you exceeded this value with your hands.

In bending, the moment generated wouldnt likely strip the threads but would have broken the threaded steel shank from the handle. The moment needed to break the handle wouldnt likely be possible with a human hand.

It's very likely that your threaded aluminum either wasnt properly machined, or had some pre-existing damage.

As a former machinist who went back to school for an engineering degree, then started gunsmithing as a fun hobby, i personally wouldn't use epoxy on a bolt handle knob.
Thats just a personal choice though, theres nothing mechanically wrong with it. As long as the customer knows its there, its easy to defeat the epoxy and remove the knob.

Personally, i always make my bolt knobs from left-over barrel blank stumps. Usually its either 416 re-sulpherized or 4140 re-sulpherized. This is irrelevant though, as even 6061-t6 shouldnt be experiencing thread pullout or excessive thread wear.

I like to rough out a set of 6061 soft-jaws to fit the knob, and using a couple drops of permatex blue, and the specifications set forth as per IFI 5th Edition Technical Data N-12/N-16, using Equation (1) and a coefficient K=0.15 for plated fasteners, torque the knob to 14 lb-ft.

I know the bolt handle shank isn't plated, but the blue permatex changes the friction coefficient of the fastener and makes the reduction from 19lb-ft to 14lb-ft prudent.

I've never heard of one of my bolt knobs unintentionally coming off, nor had any reports of damaged threads, and the knob can easily be removed non-destructively with soft-jaw equipped pliers or destructively with non soft-jaw equipped pliers.

I typically recommend these types of pliars for removal of my bolt knobs:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-10-in-Soft-Jaw-Pliers-66011/204277473

BTW: I noticed that i got "trophy points", and it appears that they have something to do with "likes".

What are these?
 
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Likes: Bradu

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#38
I treat most aluminum like it is mystery metal. It rarely gets proper surface treatment, it has fatigue issues and corrosion can be bad too. I've seen plenty of female threads pulled out of aluminum or just mangled.

Once you properly install a thread insert, you can pretty much forget about those threads unless you have a real gorilla cross-threading it.

If I don't know that everyone loosening or tightening those threads will understand that aluminum threads should not be torqued beyond a pretty low value like that 14 ft-lb mentioned above, I don't want to leave any aluminum threads to chance.
 

Bradu

Full Member
Aug 24, 2011
1,936
238
63
IL
#40
If you strip out the threads of an aluminum bolt knob, the fix I would use is a keyed thread insert. A company that knew what they were doing would even use a good thread insert before it gets stripped out.

After your aluminum bolt knob has good steel threads in it, just a drop of blue Loktite should be all you need to keep it screwed on the bolt.
This is rather comical as most of the aftermarket bolt knob installs are aluminum without inserts. I guess LRI doesn't know what they are doing with their aluminum bolt knobs they installed during the group buy they did 😂😂😂. Just how many cases of pulled threads have you seen on bolt knobs?
 

Bradu

Full Member
Aug 24, 2011
1,936
238
63
IL
#41
This threads been helping me pass the time. Please forgive, but i wanna keep it going! "I fukin grabbed it!" For some reason, had me laughing. I laugh every time i read that.. 😂

Its been awhile since i used these formulas, but out of curiousity i did a quick-n-dirty on the thread pullout force of a 5/16-24 x 1/2 thread in 6061-t6. It came in at 5300lbs. Its unlikely that you exceeded this value with your hands.

In bending, the moment generated wouldnt likely strip the threads but would have broken the threaded steel shank from the handle. The moment needed to break the handle wouldnt likely be possible with a human hand.

It's very likely that your threaded aluminum either wasnt properly machined, or had some pre-existing damage.

As a former machinist who went back to school for an engineering degree, then started gunsmithing as a fun hobby, i personally wouldn't use epoxy on a bolt handle knob.
Thats just a personal choice though, theres nothing mechanically wrong with it. As long as the customer knows its there, its easy to defeat the epoxy and remove the knob.

Personally, i always make my bolt knobs from left-over barrel blank stumps. Usually its either 416 re-sulpherized or 4140 re-sulpherized. This is irrelevant though, as even 6061-t6 shouldnt be experiencing thread pullout or excessive thread wear.

I like to rough out a set of 6061 soft-jaws to fit the knob, and using a couple drops of permatex blue, and the specifications set forth as per IFI 5th Edition Technical Data N-12/N-16, using Equation (1) and a coefficient K=0.15 for plated fasteners, torque the knob to 14 lb-ft.

I know the bolt handle shank isn't plated, but the blue permatex changes the friction coefficient of the fastener and makes the reduction from 19lb-ft to 14lb-ft prudent.

I've never heard of one of my bolt knobs unintentionally coming off, nor had any reports of damaged threads, and the knob can easily be removed non-destructively with soft-jaw equipped pliers or destructively with non soft-jaw equipped pliers.

I typically recommend these types of pliars for removal of my bolt knobs:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-10-in-Soft-Jaw-Pliers-66011/204277473

BTW: I noticed that i got "trophy points", and it appears that they have something to do with "likes".

What are these?
Love the math on this. I've heard of plenty of instances of people ripping the bolt handed off a 700 but bolt knobs lol. You would have to had a completely botched job or a serious problem of over tightening it in the first place. I get that it can be easy to pull threads by screwing bolts or hydraulic fittings in to aluminum but to pull threads by cycling the bolt... 😀
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#42
This is rather comical as most of the aftermarket bolt knob installs are aluminum without inserts. I guess LRI doesn't know what they are doing with their aluminum bolt knobs they installed during the group buy they did 😂😂😂. Just how many cases of pulled threads have you seen on bolt knobs?
Unfortunately economic pressures probably make it hard for companies like LRI to justify adding a $2-3.00 thread insert.

And I don't think bolt knobs are getting stripped by running the bolt, it's over tightening which you can do with your hand, removing it and installing it too many times or cross threading.

Steel threads are much more resistant to the first two and you have to work pretty damn hard to cross thread a bolt in to steel threads. You're much more likely to realize there is a problem.
 
Dec 18, 2008
650
4
18
Back in KS
#43
It is a common practice to use marine tex devcon or other bedding compounds on bolt knobs. locktite even red does not like to stick to cerakote. If the shop cerakoted it and then put the knob on they can come off with locktite. Marine tex or devcon stick much better to the cearkote foe some reason.
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
2,913
3,459
113
#44
It is a common practice to use marine tex devcon or other bedding compounds on bolt knobs. locktite even red does not like to stick to cerakote. If the shop cerakoted it and then put the knob on they can come off with locktite. Marine tex or devcon stick much better to the cearkote foe some reason.
...... why are they painting the threads in the first place?.......
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#47
It's funny that people are making products like this and screwing up the details so much.

An aluminum knob should be hard coat anodized or Alodyne treated to give the threads a proper hardened surface if they aren't going to use a thread insert. They both protect from corrosion also.

If you feel like you have to Cerakote or otherwise paint your threads for corrosion protection, you're buying an unfinished product.
 
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