Forend Grip technique

seansmd

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Folks,

I am clearly a NOOB and in a phase of insatiable learning, have sought and received much great advice and direct hands on teaching form the Hide folks. I am attending a class with Frank up in Alaska in May and can't wait for that weekend for some extended criticism and adjusting me and my technique.A friend and similar learner came across this and shared: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html

If this has been debated here it did not show up in the searches I tried.

The author is advocating for foreend hand control which is often discussed here for positional shots where bi-pod and rear bag may not be accomplished, off hand, kneeling, sitting, etc. The author is advocating for this in prone and supported situations where a bi-pod and rear bag or pillow could be used.

This seems to run counter to having your body in full alignment with the barrel, and managing recoil in the vector the firing creates which should be directly rearward in alignment with the barrel.

It also appears to add another human contact and influence on the gun and the NPOA that would need to be managed.

I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on this as I continue my learning process.
 
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MarkLeupold

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Folks,

I am clearly a NOOB and in a phase of insatiable learning, have sought and received much great advice and direct hands on teaching form the Hide folks. I am attending a class with Frank up in Alaska in May and can't wait for that weekend for some extended criticism and adjusting me and my technique.A friend and similar learner came across this and shared: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html

If this has been debated here it did not show up in the searches I tried.

The author is advocating for foreend hand control which is often discussed here for positional shots where bi-pod and rear bag may not be accomplished, off hand, kneeling, sitting, etc. The author is advocating for this in prone and supported situations where a bi-pod and rear bag or pillow could be used.

This seems to run counter to having your body in full alignment with the barrel, and managing recoil in the vector the firing creates which should be directly rearward in alignment with the barrel.

It also appears to add another human contact and influence on the gun and the NPOA that would need to be managed.

I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on this as I continue my learning process.
A consideration must be made here for application. I've read the article before, and the writer is not following any of the fundamentals that are mainly advocated here on the Hide. Typically, we are looking to get straight behind the rifle, head vertical and relaxed, 90 degrees of trigger control, etc.

In his pictures within the article, he is seen following a more "typical" style of shooting. Mainly he's canted off the rifle (~15 degrees or whatever it's supposed to be) even when using a front rest. In this position, as many of us know, the rifle is going to move off target under recoil (ie. left or right), so when he breaks a shot with even a mild-mannered cartridge, the reticle comes off target and he's thinking, "Hmm, I should probably hold onto that..." It's his style of "recoil control" and it obviously works because we've done the same thing shooting traditional prone for a long time.

It's not to say it's "wrong." Frank has a video on YouTube about recoil management and he even demonstrates holding the fore-end while shooting off his steel bench. Frank is advocating that the support hand pressure must be straight back into the rifle/shoulder. He then does the same thing using a rear bag and being straight behind the rifle: no bipod hop, spotting shots. That's kind of an old video, so I don't know how much our positions have evolved since then, but the point still stands.

Back to my comment about application. The author looks to have a strong background in hunting. Typically their rifles are light, sometimes heavy recoiling. Using a rifle like that, I would probably want to give a little bit more positive control to the fore end too.

Hope this helps!
 

Dthomas3523

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Rifles recoil straight back and he is not straight behind the rifle.

So, he has to “add” extra shit to control his rifle.

Straight behind the rifle with pressure on the strong hand straight back into your shoulder.

Guys use this technique all the time for very large caliber rifles.

Most anyone using their hand on the forearm or on the optic are using it to mitigate the wobble, not to control the recoil.

This might be what the author was seeing and not articulating it as such.
 

Erno86

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You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' --- by pushing the support hand straight out on the forearm while pulling in with the firing hand.
 

Dthomas3523

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You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' --- by pushing the support hand straight out on the forearm while pulling in with the firing hand.
I’m trying to picture what you are saying, are you saying to apply downward or rearward pressure on the forend?
 

kRcu

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You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' ---
I use push pull for shotgun shooting (three gun type stuff) and it helped my shooting a lot. I haven’t ever thought to try it shooting off-hand with a precision rifle. Maybe it would help stabilize a bit. Not sure. I Could try it with a sling next time I’m out.

Video for the technique:

 
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Erno86

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I’m trying to picture what you are saying, are you saying to apply downward or rearward pressure on the forend?
IMHO...both --- Pulling back into your shoulder pocket and downward pressure with with your support thumb to mitigate recoil.

 
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Dthomas3523

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IMHO...both --- Pulling back into your shoulder pocket and downward pressure with with your support thumb to mitigate recoil.

The gun shouldn’t be recoiling “up.” No matter what the caliber. If it is, it’s your body position behind the rifle not allowing the gun to recoil straight back.

Take any rifle and set it up so that nothing can influence the recoil and pull the trigger (free recoil basically). Watch what it does. Straight back every time. So anything else is shooter influenced.

If you put downward pressure, you risk messing up your natural point of aim.

If you find the rifle “hopping” and then you need to re-evaluate your setup and fundamentals.

Holding the forend down is a solution to a problem where fundamentals are the answer.
 
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Erno86

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Here's another example:

"How to Control Rifle Recoil"


 

Dthomas3523

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Here's another example:

"How to Control Rifle Recoil"


You keep posting carbine videos as examples for precision rifle......

Not being able to find videos of it being done with a bolt gun is probably a clue.
 
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Diver160651

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When I shoot a compound bow....

When I dream of walking down a runway and flagging everyone with a carbine, I think of..... Costa

None of these has much to do with PR rifle, especially off a bipod..

Oh, my.. saw the article... burn it.. or burn your phone... before you are possessed with the FUDs bs.

He has no idea what we are doing in PR..

Just made my flight to Wyoming a bit more entertaining
 
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Erno86

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When I shoot a compound bow....

When I dream of walking down a runway and flagging everyone with a carbine, I think of..... Costa

None of these has much to do with PR rifle, especially off a bipod..

Oh, my.. saw the article... burn it.. or burn your phone... before you are possessed with the FUDs bs.

He has no idea what we are doing in PR..

Just made my flight to Wyoming a bit more entertaining

Shooting off a bipod, pedestal rest, bench, prone, kneeling and sitting is a few things. And shooting offhand or in the standing position --- well...that's something else.🦝
 

Erno86

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You keep posting carbine videos as examples for precision rifle......

Not being able to find videos of it being done with a bolt gun is probably a clue.
Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.
 

MarkLeupold

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Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.
I beg to differ. The isosceles, c-clamp grip is extremely taxing and you can't stay in that position for any decent amount of time comfortably. Look at the guys actually playing in the sandbox (a kill or be killed scenario) with their vertical grips midway down a 9 inch handguard or gripping their rifle by the magwell.

Besides, the conversation here wasn't even about off hand shooting, which is what all of your examples focus on. Did you even read the OP or the article the OP cited? It's about prone shooting, advocating for fore end control in that shooting position.
 
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Diver160651

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Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.
Have you ever shot a Silhouette match??????
 
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Dthomas3523

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Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.
What in the fuck are you talking about?

You’ve decided to take this topic to something that wasn’t even asked or discussed to prove your method works?

Holy shit.
 

Dthomas3523

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That statement was so confusing and retarded, I feel like I’m being punked by a flat earther.
 
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Dthomas3523

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Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.
Gonna address this, as it so stupid, my brain hurts.

You will only use a c clamp grip in a squared or close to squared stance. This is almost always going to be in close quarter type shooting. Typical with a carbine. You won’t be doing it with a shotgun unless it’s an auto.

The minute you want to stretch out, you will blade off and start supporting the rifle from underneath while using your body to support you elbow.

And I have no fucking clue what point you are trying to prove saying people will instinctively go to a C clamp.

1: No. we have no instincts when it comes to firearms.

2: even if we did, how in the fucking fuck does that matter? If I give a 5 year old a gun, it will likely put it in it’s mouth. If I throw someone into the water who doesn’t know how to swim, they will flail around. If I put someone in a car who has not been taught how to drive, it ain’t gonna turn out well.
 
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seansmd

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The original question and discussion with my friend was around proper technique for bolt precision. I was explaining the NPA and body alignment in the path of recoil. He mentioned this article. I said it runs counter to all I have read, but would post it here for feedback.

I think the responses here confirm my original suspicion.
 

Old Justice

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I use push pull for shotgun shooting (three gun type stuff) and it helped my shooting a lot. I haven’t ever thought to try it shooting off-hand with a precision rifle. Maybe it would help stabilize a bit. Not sure. I Could try it with a sling next time I’m out.

Video for the technique:

Went to an FBI Shotgun Instructor course recently, and they taught the Haught method. It works very well.
 
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Wormydog1724

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I agree with this except I pull inboard with the weak hand instead of push. Trick is to not try and death grip it.
This. When I was in college and three gun was so damn popular, about the time magpul dynamics was at its height, I was all about the exaggerated C clamp and looking ATAS. Then I took a Kurt Miller carbine course and one drill was placing the rifle (carbine) on top of our weak hand, palm open and up. Rapid shots watching our crosshairs/red dots move and resettle back on target. It was evident that the more pressure I was putting on my rifle was just making me fight myself. Letting the rifle naturally recoil, the sights settled back on target faster. I've tried to explain this to people over and over and I never can unless we're out demoing it. Sounds crazy, but sometimes crazy works.

Now that I'm dipping my toes into the precision bolt action world, I am learning more and more. I read a concept or opinion on here and then I go to my range and try it. Some of it's bullshit, some it is amazing.

I'm going to experiment with some things this evening after reading this topic.
 
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