For the new guys

May 9, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

Below are some notes from Rick Boucher (posted on an open forum). Those who know Rick, know that he knows what he is talking about.

Pay particular attention when he writes below about the benefits of using a shooting glove and holding the sling/swivel at the rear instead of using a bag. I use this method with a short stub of sling and it has helped me. With that, here goes:

First off, a too tight of a sling is actually worse then a loose sling in many ways. NOT ALL! Damn there is that all one way or the other. :)

Next, we do not use bags as we have shown student after student that he will get a tighter group with a shooters mitt than a bag. Now that is not a bare hand. The shooter's mitt rests on the ground just as the bag does and the hand squeeze will rise and lower the muzzle enough to get on target. The sling swivel resting between the thumb and the fore finger gives an anchor area for the non-shooting hand. This is a firm controlling hand NOT a slack milk toast thing that does not control the weapon. BUT again it is not a muscle trembling monster grip that makes the teeth hurt. HINT: If the teeth hurt the grip is too tight.

Shooting hand grips with the ring and middle finger only. I rest my thumb along side fo the stock as that is where my coach in 58, YES, 58, taught me to lay it to keep from chicken choking the stock. Again, if the teeth hurt you have definitely chicken chocked that sucker. The grip is firm enough to control the weapon going into your sholder AND the recoil. I have watched guys on the range let a weapon recoil freely due to a weak grip. I have also watched guys man handle the weapon and "force" their shot right off the target.

The stock in your shoulder should be placed in the pocket firmly or you may eat the scope one day. The butt of the weapon slippng around on the shoulder during recoil is a tip, in the police business they call it a clue, that the weapon was not held firmly enough back into the shoulder.

Body should be directly behind the weapon if you are doing follow on shots or more than one shot at a time. While the neat 45 degree thingy is comfortable, the recoil pushes you off the natural point of aim each shot with it becoming progessively worse with each shot. An added bonus is that when you have multiple targets, you know the dream target rich environment, you have less of a problem being kicked off the NPA since you are directly behind the weapon. The one shot thing means if you plan on standing up and walking away. A slow fire should also be done directly behind your weapon as you will not be knocked off you NPA as bad.

Legs should be set in a comfortable position with the folowing guide lines. Non shoting leg straight behind the hip making a line from weapon, shoulder, back, hip, knee, foot. The foot should be turned in not out. This will force the shooter to come off his stomach and make breathing easier as his weight is no longer compressing his diaphram. To relax in this position the shooting side knee is bent and the leg is draw slightly up towards the shooting side elbow. How much is a matter of preference. I use a lot of bent knee as my gut is getting bigger and I need the relief! Ever notice that the older you get, everything thins out BUT your gut? OH well.

Do not get me wrong on my Hold Hard. As B ill Rogers and others have stated, holding too tight is a bad thing as muscle tremor will kill you. BUT holding wimpy will kill you just as fast. You need to find that firm hold that allow you to rest on target with minimal movement and quiver.

Last thing, I did not mean that you will have you rreticle come back to the same aim point. BUT it will come back on target. You can see the metal spash on the iron maidens, or the dirt buffalo when you blow your wind call or your range estimation. :)

Hold Hard guys!

Rick
 

justjc

Authorized Personnel
Aug 13, 2002
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Re: For the new guys

If anybody knows how it's supposed to be done it's Master Rick.

Glad you posted that. Everybody can stand to have the basics repeated. And especially good for new shooters to get a free lesson from someone with Rick's creds.

jc
 
May 9, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

Glad you liked it jc. Here's another classic from Rick on wind reading. I try to practice it, but quite frankly I suck when it comes to reading the wind. Enjoy:

Try this with the wind. Look at mirage and decide how fast you think you would have to go to keep up with it. If you think you could stroll and keep up with it then look at 1 to 3 mph and use 2 mph as the wind speed. If you need to fast walk then try 4 to 6 and 5 mph as the answer. If you think you have to run then you are now looking at 7 to 9 and use 8 mph as the best guess. If it takes a sprint then go with 10 to 12 and use 11 as your best guess. If you have to get in a car and chase that sucker down then use 13 because after that the mirage gets so thin that you won't be able to see it.

Once you have your best guess, try this formula:

Wind speed times range in hundreds divided by 10 (WS*R/10).

This is for 175 gr SMK at about 2600 (M118LR) with range in meters. Knock 10 per cent off for yards. As an example, 10 mph at 600 is 10 times six divided by ten or 6 moa. If you look up the real wind correction for 600 you will see that it is about 6 moa. This translates into about 1.75 mils so hold into the wind by 1 and 3/4 mil and you will be rewarded with a resounding hit.

With practice you will get closer and closer to how YOUR eye sees the wind. You will then be able to call mirage. ONE word of warning, a common screw up is that the shooter sees the mirage at 6 mph and then figures in the half value. DON'T, mirage reads as the true wind effect on the bullet. A half value 12 mph wind will look like a 6 mph wind through the mirage. IF you are supplementing your wind read with vegetation and other wind indicators then by all means look at the value. To get the value turn your observation scope into the wind until you get a boil, that is the true wind direction based on the LOS. Now use the cosine to modify your wind speed. As an example a wind at 45 degrees to LOS is actually a .7 wind and not a .5 wind. You must be at 60 degrees to LOS to get down to a .5 value. Clear as mud? If I confused you let me know and I will try again.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick
 

justjc

Authorized Personnel
Aug 13, 2002
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Cordova, Tennessee
Re: For the new guys

Excellent stuff.Keep it coming. Rick's been doing this for a while and pretty much knows what he talking about. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing.

jc
 
Aug 11, 2006
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louisiana
Re: For the new guys

any tips for a natural muscle tremor (not to tight or to lose grip causing it)this tremor is always a problem not just a shooting problem. not a major tremor any suggestions to lessen it. my semi crazy uncle said working out would help. any info will help or all comments welcome
 

J.Boyette

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 13, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

chase,

For starters, when suporting a rifle, always use bone ont muscle. So when in off hand standing, you are to let the rifle settle were it does, ajust the rifle, ajust your bones untill all line up on the target "NPA"

Working out will hwlp alot. The stronger you are to longer it takes your muscle's to feel tyred.

John
 
Aug 11, 2006
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louisiana
Re: For the new guys

thnx ,Ive been needing that info for a while.(I was gonna start workin out cause I may join the football team next year[I didnt feel like givin up my summer this year])
 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,556
810
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Arizona, good place for me...
Re: For the new guys

Regarding the "Chicken Wing Thing". In our youth marksmanship program, we do not specify a preferred up/down/midway/whatever position.

What we do suggest is that whatever feels most relaxed is best, and that whatever position that is, the shooter should endeavor to keep it consistent for each shot taken from that particular position.

The point about the 'straight out chicken wing' thing is that there can be little doubt about whether or not it's consistent, same with flush position against the chest. In between, the consistency can become questionable.

I was trained with the straight out position, and instinctively use it, but am beginning to think that the flush postion may provide a little extra support. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of difference.

Muscle tremor is a natural thing. I've seen some older guys who look like they're doing the shimmy, but they hit the target just as good as ever.

Mainly, it's a result of poor muscle tone or fatigue or both.

Exercise can help muscle tone. I feel that many reps with small weights, developing agility, is better than fewer reps with bigger weights, which builds bulk.

Fatigue is generally an indicator of a poor NPA. The main point of the NPA is to remove muscle performance from the accuracy equation. If you have to use your muscles to hold the firearm on target, your position could probably use some improvment. Either that, or you're using the wrong position.

Marines are trained to use the steadiest position that is compatible with terrain and visibility. Obviously, prone isn't going to work too well in tall grass or undergrowth, but sitting might, or kneeling, or 'rice paddy prone'. Offhand is the least desirable choice, and the shooter is encouraged to incorporate whatever natural support is available.

I was never trained with 'rice paddy prone', but I've tried it a few times in an effort to develop another alternative position for hunting. Seems to work, but it's probably something that would occur to me after the fact.

My most common 'go to hasty position' is kneeling with a hasty sling. I have managed to roll out of a slow moving pickup truck, scoot across a road and ditch while loading and chambering a round, kneel, sling up, and shoot, dropping a woodchuck at about 150yd, all in under 30 seconds. One time only, but even I was impressed.

A shooter who passes up a more steady position than is readily possible for any reason has something working against them. Maybe some form of arbitrary competitive rules will dictate such, but unless there's a good reason otherwise, you really do need to seek the lowest, steadiest position that time and local conditions permit.

Greg
 
Re: For the new guys

First time poster, first time reader. I reckon this is just the thread to ask dumb questions on.

I want to build a long range rifle. I have in my pocession a model 70 Winchester, .30-06. I'm gonna strip it down to the action, and start over.

What kind of distance can I expect from that round? Is 1,000 yards unrealistic? I've heard tell of .308's doing 600+ yards. Surely a .30-06 can do just as good? Should I try to re-caliber? CAN I re-caliber? What are my options as far as that goes? I'm huge .308 fan...I mean, HUGE. I have three rifles calbered in .308. Why don't I use one of those? Well, two are semi-auto sporting rifles and the other is a single shot crack-barrel,l good rifles, all, but I want to build a full blown, precision, tactical, bolt action, match heavy-barrel, w/a big damn scope, long range shootin', competitive, sniper rifle. Call me crazy, but I wanna build something that Carlos Hathcock would be proud to shoot.

I talked to a local riflesmith. He recommended a Hart barrel, with a 1/10 twist to accomidate a heavy bullet, and a McMillan, or H&S stock. Should I go with a heavier, or lighter bullet? Or, does it depend on what the rifle does better with?

I want to weigh my rifle down--heavy barrel, etc.--to try and reduce muzzle dance. Good? Bad? Personal preference? That question may have been answered in this thread, but seven pages is alot to wade through...lol

Optics? I'm crossing the ballistics defile, right now. I'll worry about optics later...lol

I would like to add to what AZYoungGun said, and say that if I'm going to drop that kind of coin on a friggin' "gun", I wanna get it right, the first time.

J.Boyette, alotta killer info you posted, man. Many thanks, and my hat's off to ya!

I'm gonna like it here. Any Louisiana boys on this board??

James
 

J.Boyette

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 13, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

For alot of 30-06 info click---> <span style="font-weight: bold">Here</span>

Barrel's are easy to figure out. A high quality barrel is the only way to go. Here is a simple list to pick from and in no order from best to worst.

<span style="font-style: italic">"I have a Broughton and will not own any other brand now"</span> But thats me, not you so read, learn and ask questions.

Mike Rock
Schneider
Broughton
Obermeyer
Hart

These will do you in just fine as far as contor go with a #7 MTU if you do not know what you want.

Stocks:
The only true way to find the right stock is to go to a rifle match were you will get hands on the stocks. I like a A5, some like a A3, others like the HTG. You need to hold them, feel them and learn what is what. But I think and a lot of others do to, get a non-adjustable stock. If all things are fixed, nothing wiggles and/or brakes off.

Look for a guy named Terry Cross to do your rifle work. He is a local in your area. Terry builds some world class rifles no joke.

If you want to do the smart thing, get a hold of Terry or George, tell them what you want the rifle for, how much $$$$ you have, and what colors you like.

When the rifle is done, it will be in the colors you like, but built the way they want it. This way there is no question the rifle is the best it can be for your price range


John
 

LOBO

Sergeant
Sep 10, 2003
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Mississippi
Re: For the new guys

The 30-06 will definately work at 1000, but of course I use to 1000 in F class, so I am biased
I have a Remington M700 action with a 28" Brougton barrel and I have no trouble getting 175 gr Sierra Match Kings to go 2,950 fps. There are several guys on here who use the 30-06 as you will see in the the thread that Boyette poited you too. USSR and Montana Marine are getting 190 gr Sierra Match Kings close to 2900 fps. Your 30-06 will do just fine


Chris
 
Re: For the new guys

Thanks, Lobo, I checked out the thread that John linked. Alot of that info is 3rd grade stuff, and I'm still in kindergarten, but as my exwife used to say, I'm not as dumb as I look, so I think I'll pick it up...lol.

I was at the range today, and saw a dude with a FN police sniper rifle, with a Springfield scope mounted on it, with a McMillan stock. He let me squeeze off five rounds...I was hard! That Springfield scope was sump'n-else. I didn't even know they made scopes like that. He said he gave $1,200 for that rifle, w/o the scope. That sounded like a purdy good deal to me.

James
 

10fp

Sergeant
Aug 4, 2006
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Coast Range
Re: For the new guys

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by windage_elevation:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Thanks, Lobo, I checked out the thread that John linked. Alot of that info is 3rd grade stuff, and I'm still in kindergarten, but as my exwife used to say, I'm not as dumb as I look, so I think I'll pick it up...lol.

I was at the range today, and saw a dude with a FN police sniper rifle, with a Springfield scope mounted on it, with a McMillan stock. He let me squeeze off five rounds...I was hard! That Springfield scope was sump'n-else. I didn't even know they made scopes like that. He said he gave $1,200 for that rifle, w/o the scope. That sounded like a purdy good deal to me.

James </span></div></div>Springfield scopes are junk
 

J.Boyette

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 13, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

Bermshot,

Springfield scopes have a bad history. Most brake and there was alot of them just plain did not work. Now on the other hand, if you have one that works, and you like it drive on with it.

But you will find that the over all view of Springfield scopes in general, is typical of Iongshot 's.

John
 
Nov 15, 2006
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Re: For the new guys

John, thanks for one of the most informative posts I have ever read. I made it to page five before my Missus was throwing her shoe at me. I will definately continue reading, learning, and hopefully not asking TOO many stupid questions. Thanks for an amazing site, gang... keep up the excellent work.

Cheers,

Darren
 
Nov 18, 2006
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Way up North.
Re: For the new guys

I have a quick question; In regards to the 2005 Cup, it seems nearly everyone has a different kneeling position, either traditional, dropped kneed, or even some mixedish supported stuff. What's your opinion? I know for a fact I am not able to make my buttox come in contact with the heel of my shoe during a kneeling match, so my question is, what's the next best move?

And one more: I thought they proved the shorter case and higher angle of the .308 made for a more uniform burn as well as 'push' on the bullet? Besides the fact the .308 began to blatanly out-perform it, wasn't that why shooters began to move away from the '06?
 

Lindy

Gunny Sergeant
Mar 26, 2003
4,020
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Rifles Only
www.arcanamavens.com
Re: For the new guys

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know for a fact I am not able to make my buttox come in contact with the heel of my shoe during a kneeling match, so my question is, what's the next best move?</div></div>Yoga classes.


The best kneeling position is the one which works for you. The way to find that out is a lot of dry firing someplace where you can aim your rifle at a place long enough to get your scope to focus.

The .308 does not "blatanly [sic] out-perform" the .30-'06. Shooters went to the .308 primarily because it became the NATO standard cartridge.

Tactical rifles competitions are generally not decided by minute differences in cartridge accuracy like benchrest matches, but by shooter ability. A well-made .30-'06 will do fine.
 

LOBO

Sergeant
Sep 10, 2003
655
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16
Mississippi
Re: For the new guys

Just a FWIW on my experience with the 30-06. I have two 30-06's that are built on M700 actions. One has a 28" Broughton 5C barrel and gets used in F class, paper punching, and general shooting. With this rifle, it is not a problem to get 175 gr SMK's to achieve 3,000 fps over my Oehler 35 chrono, although 2,950 fps is the sweet spot in my rifle. A built rifle mixed with handloads will definately make a 30-06 shine.

Chris
 
Dec 13, 2006
39
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Sunshine State
Re: For the new guys

1st post! Hello everyone,
Thank you for sharing all of the excellant information. Just begining my journey in percision shooting. Man, I visit this site more often than a obsessive compulsive person washes his hands during flu season.
 
Dec 19, 2006
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Re: For the new guys

J.Boyette

i went to triad tac. and they had two different log books. modular sniper or trgt which would you say a newbie should get... by the way do you know how i can order one of those redman rear bags. not from triad. i dont want their name on the side. i heard you can get them with whatever you want on them
 

J.Boyette

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 13, 2003
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Re: For the new guys

rem700man,

Rear bag

http://www.redmantactical.com/

As far as the book goes. To be honest I like the modular one myself. There are some pages in the TRGT book you my not ever use.

With the modular book you can order and fill in sheets that you do use.

NOW if this is a duty rifle as in for work you need a binded book if you ever go to court.

John
 
Dec 19, 2006
554
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phoenix, AZ
Re: For the new guys

J.Boyette

Thanks for all the help you have given me a lot of good info. btw i put up a post in the bear pit about illuminated reticles i would like your feed back on that you seem to really know your sh*t
 

J.Boyette

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 13, 2003
1,294
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Re: For the new guys

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i would like your feed back on that you seem to really know your sh*t</div></div>I read your post and some others have posted information that is more of a help than I could do. and BTW, I do not know crap about this.

I just keep real good records.

John
 
Aug 12, 2008
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OREGON
Re: For the new guys

Hey thanks alot!! I am kinda a newbie so really enjoy reading threads like this one! have been shooting for years but have recently started shooting long distance seriously. have spent a fortune in the last year on new rifles and re designing some i've had for years and appreciate posts with info done from field experiments by other shooters. keep em coming!