Florida Red Flag...

OldSalty

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Guy awaiting trial on attempted murder after firing at a car driven by his friend. Red flag was then used to confiscate his fireams.


He has not yet been to trial for attempted murder. Red flag enabled a court order to take his firearms while awaiting trial for attempted murder.

Due process?

What are your thoughts on this?
 

FS1

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This case I am not that familiar with. So?.

In General: You take me to court before you take my guns. Not after. That’s Due Process.

Also I would like a list of all the weapons you intend to take. Don’t know what I have? Your problem not mine.
 
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MTN

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Shoot unlawfully and they already took the gun(s). What is red flag adding that wasn’t already in place here?

If the accused is a risk then don’t give them bond and speed up the damn trial.
 

OldSalty

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What is red flag adding that wasn’t already in place here?
Assuming dude is not a convicted felon...he is awaiting trial and may get convicted, but may not. Therefore, what law before red flag allowed seizure of his firearms without due process? Answer, none.

Its just a case where red flag wasnt initiated by a snitch (neighbor etc), it was initiated by the state.
 

Cheyenne Bodie

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He supposedly committed a crime with a firearm, that's not a red flag raid lol. They are being "nice" if they gave him a choice between no bail and surrendering of his firearms. If he can't be trusted with a firearm he shouldn't have been let out and the firearms in his ownership are a moot point, imo it's fucking stupid still. You're either free or you aren't in his case, he's the suspect of a valid crime and should be held as such— his gun ownership is irrelevant outside of what is in evidence.
 
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MTN

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So he's guilty?
Didn’t say he was guilty. But before these red flag laws if there is evidence that a law was broken with a gun, they typically collect it. I assume there are already laws on the books for them to do so? If that is in fact the case, then red flag adds nothing in this instance and the situation is being manipulated to sell idiots a basket of bullshit on Fox News.
 

E. Bryant

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Does "awaiting trial" mean that he was under indictment? If so, then I'd say that constitutes due process.

There will be cases that clearly outline abuse of red-flag laws. I don't think this is one.
 

FS1

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Does "awaiting trial" mean that he was under indictment? If so, then I'd say that constitutes due process.

There will be cases that clearly outline abuse of red-flag laws. I don't think this is one.
Then why not just issue a search warrant or surrender order?
 

OldSalty

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So the assumption here is that he is accused of an alledged crime with a firearm. Thus, accusation and evidence is enough to take his firearms even though he has not yet had a chance to face his accusers in court and be judged by his peers?

Just trying to understand where red flag is appropriate and when it is not.

Red flag was inacted in this case - its not fodder. It allowed the fast-tracking and limitless power to confiscate his firearms. By the way, the alledged crime was with his glock but they took ALL his firearms...not just the one he used to be admitted as evidence.

I am not saying the state didnt do the right thing. Maybe they did, maybe hes a wacko close to snapping...maybe not.

This is why I brought it up.
 

Cheyenne Bodie

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So the assumption here is that he is accused of an alledged crime with a firearm. Thus, accusation and evidence is enough to take his firearms even though he has not yet had a chance to face his accusers in court and be judged by his peers?

Just trying to understand where red flag is appropriate and when it is not.

Red flag was inacted in this case - its not fodder. It allowed the fast-tracking and limitless power to confiscate his firearms. By the way, the alledged crime was with his glock but they took ALL his firearms...not just the one he used to be admitted as evidence.

I am not saying the state didnt do the right thing. Maybe they did, maybe hes a wacko close to snapping...maybe not.

This is why I brought it up.
IMO the "red flag" use is just the state trying to put a good face on a bad "law". It was completely unnecessary in this case, perhaps even dangerous if he is not capable of being trusted with a firearm and was let out or not taken in instead. Criminals can find guns easily in certain areas, shit I've seen someone just about done in with a goddamn liquor bottle. If they are mentioning red flag it's because he was found guilty of defying it, and now he is a criminal veteran on legitimate charges as a result of due process regarding the event which prompted the red flag. It's media distortion, it's them saying "we were right to be wrong".
 
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OldSalty

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But he never got due process for the confiscation...thats part of the point. And yes, he was charged for not complying with the red-flag order and found guilty for this non compliance.

And I do agree with you. Its putting lipstick on a pig...cherry picking someone accused (but not yet guilty) of a serious crime. The answer I suppose is that the seriousness of the alledged crime makes it OK to red-flag the accused...regardless of the fact he has not yet been convicted.
 

TACC

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This will set a precedent in florida, which other states will use as a guide for there own red flag laws.
 

alpine44

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I have several issues with this case.

First is the reporting. Alleged crime was committed with a handgun (not shown). The handgun was confiscated together with a 22 rifle (also not shown) and an AR15. Only the AR15 is depicted next to the picture of a scary looking dude. If that does not reek of bias and hidden agenda, than I do not know what does.

Secondly, do we have Red Flag laws for things just as dangerous as guns when misused? Can you have your neighbor's car confiscated by reporting that he regularly stumbles out of his car, drunk to the point of falling down several times before getting into his house. No, you can't and the reason for that is due process and "innocent until proven guilty". Can the ATF suspend your explosives license and confiscate your inventory based on a call from a neighbor who feels threatened by some 'noises of terrorist activity' and does not know that you are legit? I guess you know the answer.

Thirdly, you know exactly what the strategy behind these red flag laws is. They are not there "for the children"; they are a way to preemptively criminalize gun ownership. Even if naive legislators enacted these laws in good faith, rest assured that these laws will be abused by the gun grabbers. Why are you even trying to justify/validate this shit? These laws deserve SCOTUS review and nullification. (BTW: No constitutional amendment protects the ownership and use of cars or explosives. They are mere privileges, not rights.)

This reaction from the sheriff is more appropriate. He makes another valid point later. If a suspect's mental state (and not some friggin tool) becomes a threat to him/herself or society then we should address the mental state and not confiscate the tool. What would stop the now gun-less mad man from plowing a semi truck into a crowd or going full retard with a saber? I guess that's OK with the Left.

Every time you hear the left say that they "... have taken an important step against gun violence" they really mean it. However, they do not refer to your safety but to their ability of ramming socialism down your throat and up your rear with impunity and little fear of a reckoning.

How many more times do we babble "Not another inch!" and then yield another yard?
 
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Cheyenne Bodie

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But he never got due process for the confiscation...thats part of the point. And yes, he was charged for not complying with the red-flag order and found guilty for this non compliance.

And I do agree with you. Its putting lipstick on a pig...cherry picking someone accused (but not yet guilty) of a serious crime. The answer I suppose is that the seriousness of the alledged crime makes it OK to red-flag the accused...regardless of the fact he has not yet been convicted.
I'm saying that the red flag raid they are so proud of should have been a proper investigation and apprehension, the red flag raid is not needed. LE needs to show up/have judge signed warrants (instead of judge signed red flag order), ask questions, make observations, collect evidence, get warrants they don't yet have, lock up the bad guy, finalize the case, prosecute, so on and so forth. Do police work. I don't think it makes any sense to discover a violent crime, take the suspect's weapons but not their person into custody, and then commence with an investigation and apprehension. It makes NO sense to me. I'm pretty sure that in at least some states if you are apprehended for suspicion of certain crimes they can already confiscate your guns.
 

OldSalty

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I don't think it makes any sense to discover a violent crime, take the suspect's weapons...
Alledged crime.

Again, this is the whole point.

Posting sentiment as if he has been found GUILTY of a crime, when in fact he has not. He might be guilty...and might not be. BUT he is PRESUMED innocent until that verdict comes down. Yet they took his firearms...and not just the one alledgedly used in the crime. All of them.

Granted, he has a very serious charge pending...attempted murder aint jaywalking.

Im just not sure I am ready to be the one who decides when someone should or shouldnt have their rights stripped from them before they get due process. I believe it is a slippery slope one which can easily be manipulated. Both by the people and by the state.

In this country we are presumed innocent until proven guilty...a foundational principle. This principle MUST stand and be protected.

The left is feverously attacking this foundational principle (among others)...means to an end.
 
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OldSalty

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^ After all, more serious charges warrant suspension of your rights.

Verdict be damned.
 
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j-huskey

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Federal firearms law on purchase, or possession of firearms made him a prohibited person once indicted for a felony criminal act. On the 4473, yada.
This law has been in effect for a number of years. Right or wrong, its been here and accepted by the populace.
Only in the last few years have you seen LE start to enforce it. BATFE has not enforced it with any vigor, and still doesnt, focusing more on license compliance.
This law making you a prohibited person removed innocent until proven guilty, a long time ago.....
For a long time it was nullified by non enforcement much like jury nullification..

The fl red flag law, is an extension of federal law, that allows local level prosecution of indicted persons, prohibited by fed law.

The smarter people who were indicted and owned a bunch of guns, immediately obtained a lawyer and transmitted their firearms to them to hold or dispose of, whichever best suited the case. Fed gov approved of this for years. Fed gov even allowed FFL's under indictment to do this and gave them a reasonable time to dispose of the weapons.

The red flag law following fed law, does allow indicted individuals to follow precedent and turn guns in and recover them after being found not guilty... at legal cost to the citizens involved.

This man could have avoided prosecution and conviction on the red flag law, but didnt. Yes, he would have been un-gunned until his other trial and conviction/non conviction, and if found not guilty, had to pay lawyer to recover his red-flagged guns. Which in FL under the current political climate, probably wouldn't have happened, except, under fed law, a not guilty of the first charge would remove him from prohibited status, and he could legally buy another.... not now though, because he is now a convicted felon on the red flag law.

Poor people (or ignorant trusting people) who dont know the intricacies of law or who cant afford a lawyer ARE going to be disenfranchised of their rights by the political enforcement of these laws.

***** It's all about the political goal of disarming the people, nothing more, nothing less. *****

Does it stop him from going to the hardware store and getting a machete or brush axe, or dollar general and getting a kitchen knife set, or a car rental place and getting a delivery van (then Walmart for fertilizer, then the corner station for diesel), or a car lot and getting a dodge challenger, fuck NO!!!!!
Kinda worst case, does it stop him from using Mr machete on an unaware police officer and taking THEIR handgun, ar15, ammunition, magazines, and bloody body armor, and buying MORE ammo at pricks sporting goods, as well as perhaps the patrol unit, removing the need to go rent a van or buy a challenger.... FUCK NO !!!!!
Red Flag does nothing to stop him from obtaining something more dangerous or equally dangerous IF they want to kill.

Gun control and confiscation pure and simple.

I do not agree with red flag politics. Especially, very especially since there is a mechanism in place to remove mentally deranged gonna kill u people from our presence without disarming US....

Enough has been said about the purpose of red flag that I dont need to say any more.

This post information is to educate people who should make some plans to avoid red flag prosecution and becoming a prohibited felon because they didnt recognize the dangers of the politicized law whose intent is to disarm, rather than protecting EVERYBODY.....

You do some things out of self defense against the rest of the world whose thought process is not yours, and who wants you gone, one way or the other. Self defense against an agenda driven society who doesnt want free people to stay free...

vr and best to you all in your fight to stay free.....
 
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BullGear

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This is not a Red Flag intervention. I would think that his firearms would have been removed even if there were no Red Flag laws in Florida. This is just politics at it's worse. Hey look at me! Florida uses a new gun law to disarm a dangerous criminal. Get over yourselves, this illegal law was not used in this instance other than in the court of public opinion.
 
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