Federal 210M primers FTF issue

Terminator2

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Went to the range today to shoot my AI-AT .260 Rem. My AT has the large firing pin bolt. I shot 110 of my reloads and 5 Hornady Fusion factory 120gr loads. All of the factory loads fired without a hitch. However, 7 of my 110 reloads did not fire. My reloads were with once fired Lapua brass and Federal 210M primers. Two weeks ago I fired 75 rounds of my 6.5 CM reloads with the same primers and rifle and had no problems. I've never had a FTF primer from Federal and to have 7 out of 110 seems scary. Any ideas of what might be going on? Also, the FTF's did not occur all consecutively, but scattered among the two boxes of 50. The lot # of my 210M's case is 2RE119. I just added a picture of two of my cases. The one on the left fired and the one on the right was a FTF.
 

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Terminator2

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Excellent question. I did break down all 7 of the FTF's when I got back home from the range today, as I have in the past missed a powder charge in one session and at the range thought it was a hard primer, only to break it down later to discover I had omitted the powder charge. All of the FTF's had powder in them.

All of the primers were from the same 1000 case of Federal GMM210M that I bought last year.
 

Terminator2

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They were all set to exactly the same level, and you can't short stroke the mechanism. Never had this problem before after 15K cartridges.
Think that call to Federal is warranted.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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Any chance you have/had any WD40, or similar on the bench, cases, shell holders ect?
Some years back my side kick had 4 FTF with Federals an when we looked an pushed them out found no priming mix in them at all. We never understood how this could happen based on knowing how they were made, but like bullet holes our eyes told us differently.
 

lash

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that hard stop is just that it does not mean your primer was seated to the bottom of the pocket.
^^^This right here.^^^

What 47guy is trying to tell you is that just because the hard stop on your press seats the primers all to the same depth, does not mean that those primers were seated all of the way down in case. There is more than one reason why this could be, but a common one is that the primer pocket is too deep, not allowing the primer to be seated all of the way down into the case by a hard stop primer seater.

Why do we think that, just based on your two pictures? Well, one reason is that the firing pin strike on the unfired primer is so much deeper than normal, telling me that maybe the firing pin is doing the work of pushing that primer deeper into the pocket. The second reason is that we have so little to go on at this point and can only guess as you feed us little snippets of information at a time.

If you are really looking for the root cause instead of fishing for reasons or courage to call Federal and blame the primers, you need to be honest with yourself and fully investigate the unfired cases and primers. You need to be ready to accept that just possibly something could have gone wrong or varied in your preparation process that could have been the root cause. Until you do that, you cannot, and we surely cannot, ferret out the reason for the FTF and positively identify the cause. Be it process or primers.

Okay, having said all that, I would first be measuring the depth of the primer pockets in those ftf cases, measuring the size (depth wise) of the primers you have, and carefully inspecting the unfired primers themselves. Compared the ftf primers to other unfired and unstruck primers and also to a fired primer. Measure the headspace of the ftf cases as compared to your normally expected headspace.

In almost all failure situations, the failed part(s) will tell the story for you if you examine them with an unjaundiced eye and an open mind. Oh, and you have to be honest with yourself regarding your process and the possibility that maybe, just maybe, something might have gone awry.
 
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47guy

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They were all set to exactly the same level, and you can't short stroke the mechanism. Never had this problem before after 15K cartridges.
Think that call to Federal is warranted.

if im not mistaken the hard stop on the coax is set to put the primer .004-.005 below flush...ive had lapua brass that the primers touched bottom of pocket at .008...i used a K&M tool with the gauge for years and the differences in primer pocket depth varied quite a bit.

im not saying it is NOT bad primers im just saying most times there something else that causes the FTF...check the things @lash said and you could also seat primers in those cases with the press then see if they seat deeper with a hand primer.
 
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918v

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They were all set to exactly the same level, and you can't short stroke the mechanism. Never had this problem before after 15K cartridges.
Think that call to Federal is warranted.
You need to understand how a primer works. A primer has a cup, priming compound, and an anvil. The anvil needs to be touching the bottom of the primer pocket. The cup needs to be below flush with the bottom of the case. The only way to accomplish this is to seat the primer, feeling for the anvil bottoming out.

Your hard stop bullshit doesn’t work.
 
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Terminator2

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Thanks to all that replied for your insight and suggestions. After reading your suggestions, I'm now beginning to think the likely answer is the depth dimensions of the Lapua case primer pocket, so I'll look into that first with the knowledge that after 40 years of reloading (I'm now 70) that I undertand just how all this primer bullshit works.
 

spife7980

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Measure the pocket depth of 5 cases with the depth gauge of a caliper to get an average.
1581696686084.png

Measure the primers themselves. Both the top of the anvil to the base of the primer and then from the top of the cup wall to the base. The difference between the two should be about how much crush you put on the primers when seating.
1581696956864.png


Your answer is somewhere in there as to how deep the primers actually seat. You can then use the depth measurement to see how far below flush they are seated.


This chart is a bit old so it could be out of date, doesnt really matter for demonstration though.
1581697105134.png


This is the saami standards
1581697288403.png

If you are using a cci450 then its got a cup depth of .113.
If your pocket standard is .117-.123. Seating the 450 to .004 below flush means that you could be seating them fully in a minimum pocket or you could still be a .006 away from actually seating them fully in a maximum depth pocket.

If the the firing pins energy isnt going into crushing the primer, its bleeding that energy pushing the primer forward in the pocket until it actually bottoms out and then it starts to crush at a slowed/cushioned/bled/weakened rate.

And all of that is assuming that your pockets and primers are in spec etc.

Need to measure to know how they actually interact with one another.
 
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spife7980

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And then, over sizing the cases and creating too much head space clearance between the case and the chamber means that the firing pin is going into moving the entire cartridge forward until it bottoms out robbing ignition power in a similar manner.

Measure the case shoulders with a comparator (empty 40s&w or 9mm case works ina pinch) where you had a failure to fire and compare it to the fired cases to see how much of a difference there is there, should only be a couple thousandths between the two but it wouldnt be the first tome someone over worked their brass.

1581698632964.png




Getting all these measurements will help you to rule out what the problem isnt instead of throwing shit at the wall of what it could be with no data.
 
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Terminator2

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I had an idea to try before measuring. I reprimed all seven of the cases that failed to fire with new primers from the same case of primers and test fired them. They all fired. They were primed the exact same way on the exact same press.
 

Cascade Hemi

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I've done primer tests where I seated primers proud all the way to bottomed out in the primer pocket and the rifle never failed to fire even when the action was effectively seating the primer because they were sticking out. I'm not saying it can't happen but the primer alarmism has never matched my results. The only issue I've ever had with ignition relating to primer seating depth was where the primer stuck out too far to allow a pistol slide to return to battery.

The picture shows primers that have more than enough firing pin depth to set off any primer I've ever seen. If the primers didn't go off I'd either double check the cases weren't wet or verify you don't have bad primers. I highly doubt primer seating depth is the culprit based on the photo; they look like every bad primer I've ever had.
 

Terminator2

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Thank you all for taking the time to give me your thoughts and advice. It is all appreciated. After repriming the same cases with new primers from the same lot and test firing all of them with all of them firing, I now feel it must be the primers. I'm going to call Federal CS and discuss it with them.