Don't be THESE GUYS... the Death of Precision Rifle

Lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
Apr 12, 2001
27,605
4,248
113
Base of the Rockies
www.snipershide.com
Could not resists ... LOL

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TacticalDillhole

Standby to get some
Jun 26, 2012
3,091
1,791
113
N. Carolina
Could not resists ... LOL

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Didn't that song get used in a walking dead episode?
 
Sep 9, 2002
436
3
18
tennessee
www.sniperworx.com
so i have been MIA for several years now actually about the time the PRS started in it's first year.
What i see is a case of 'gotta be careful what you ask for' in life.

pre-PRS i don't recall matches having this issue - shooters helped each other, shooters shot and placed and maybe did well enough to get a item off the prize table.

no points system, no ratings, no sponsored shooters, no race guns, no polarized caliber pool, as in very few .308s any longer but game guns/calibers.
Last match i shot, a guy said, what you shooting, '.308, i said' duh?! what other caliber is there . . .? tactical rifle = .30 cal . He laughed and said you are getting it done the hard way! yup! story of my life.

I dont care for the 'sport' side of things, that bastardize the original version, whether it is sniper/tactical matches or tournament Ka-ra-te

and so, after years of being MIA I see the beast that has been created, is now demanding to be fed and fed fucking Filet Mignon and Remy 1738 or else the beast will fucking eat you!

enjoy it, it is not part of my shooting life, never will be

I shot a team match once and Frank and his partner Kevin Mussack shot it too, years ago, the premise being a match centered on what it is like or as close as could be simulated to a sniper op; 10 total rounds for the sniper (all fucking weekend), land nav. day and night, hump all your gear from start to finish, with opposing force trying to find you and 'capture you' - 10 teams signed up, like 9 started and six finished . we paid to participate - lots of hype, few showed, fewer finished.

Prize table was one,single, lone memorial t-shirt for the shooter and spotter. it was the Bruce Robinson Memorial as in the creator of the Mil-dot Master in his honor (still got the t shirt)

Now that is a match - finished it up, ate, said goodbyes to all, and drove home 900 miles one way.

peace out !
 
Likes: HeavyHauler
Nov 5, 2009
1,374
22
38
WA, USA
I wanted Lasers on the Sharks when the Fonz jumped it.. but i was voted down, eventually my idear made it to the Austin Powers movies.

While I am responsible for the debacle with the Fonz, I also added in Pinky Tuscadero which was a win.

How about my handy work last night, I totally handed Warren Beatty the wrong envelope ... :) stirring the shit since the 70s

Pinky Tuscadero - you magnificent (evil) bastard...
 

AIAW

General Asshattery
Aug 16, 2001
3,433
574
113
Central Texas
Damn that's friggin' awesome!

I've got that same mouse by the way. Second Razer that I've had that over time develops the "single-click turned double-click when I don't want it to" disease :(
 

Rob01

Super Mod/Team Blaster
Staff member
Jul 9, 2001
9,631
616
113
NC
www.teamblaster.net
so i have been MIA for several years now actually about the time the PRS started in it's first year.
What i see is a case of 'gotta be careful what you ask for' in life.

pre-PRS i don't recall matches having this issue - shooters helped each other, shooters shot and placed and maybe did well enough to get a item off the prize table.

no points system, no ratings, no sponsored shooters, no race guns, no polarized caliber pool, as in very few .308s any longer but game guns/calibers.
Last match i shot, a guy said, what you shooting, '.308, i said' duh?! what other caliber is there . . .? tactical rifle = .30 cal . He laughed and said you are getting it done the hard way! yup! story of my life.

I dont care for the 'sport' side of things, that bastardize the original version, whether it is sniper/tactical matches or tournament Ka-ra-te

and so, after years of being MIA I see the beast that has been created, is now demanding to be fed and fed fucking Filet Mignon and Remy 1738 or else the beast will fucking eat you!

enjoy it, it is not part of my shooting life, never will be

I shot a team match once and Frank and his partner Kevin Mussack shot it too, years ago, the premise being a match centered on what it is like or as close as could be simulated to a sniper op; 10 total rounds for the sniper (all fucking weekend), land nav. day and night, hump all your gear from start to finish, with opposing force trying to find you and 'capture you' - 10 teams signed up, like 9 started and six finished . we paid to participate - lots of hype, few showed, fewer finished.

Prize table was one,single, lone memorial t-shirt for the shooter and spotter. it was the Bruce Robinson Memorial as in the creator of the Mil-dot Master in his honor (still got the t shirt)

Now that is a match - finished it up, ate, said goodbyes to all, and drove home 900 miles one way.

peace out !
A lot of truth here but there were sponsored shooters back then. Our Team, Team Blaster, has been around since 2003. ;) But we have always tried to do our best to be good sportsmen and honorable shooters and good "ambassadors" to the sport.

Today's PRS matches are more of a USPSA style of long range shooting as opposed to the actual sniper matches as most people want to go and shoot more than 10 rounds over the weekend. Not saying the sniper style matches aren't fun and challenging as I have run a few and the one at Storm years back was a ball buster when I was a fatter body LOL. But just is what it is as people always look for a better mousetrap. Unless rules are otherwise people morph and change to fit it. The first 6mm that entered, the.243, started taking over the .308 in matches back in 2004/2005 when George started running them. Terry and Jim ran .260s as well while most were running .308s. Same with DBMs. Match rules said nothing about top loaded .308s only so people adjusted. Can't really fault them for it. Nothing said they couldn't and the gear race began.

That said I wouldn't let it keep you out of it. You can still run your top loading .308 and shoot against yourself. Shooting is fun.


 
Likes: 5RWill
Haven't posted here since 2014, but had to say thank you Frank. I've only shot a couple of local Vegas and a couple monthly AZ matches years ago (no drama, lots of fun, great folks), but have worked a few large ones as a RO and vendor (in four states), and have seen the gaming, cajoling, and crying by about 5% of the shooters. But the 95% are pretty awesome people and outshine the negative. I also like seeing the new shooters and shooters with store-bought rifles out there wringing them out. This to me outweighs anything from the whiners. Solving these issues (gaming, prize table greed, etc) is above my pay grade, but I hope it gets sorted. To the 95% of you, keep up the great work, thanks for the camaraderie, and thanks for all you do. Mark
 
Likes: pizfiz
Feb 17, 2007
980
3
0
47
Bucks County, PA
www.bhtcorps.com
I saw this coming but hoped against it. I never met Frank and don't know him but the stories I have heard are 100% consistent with what he is saying. Never shot one, never will.

Once the silk shirted faggotry starts, that's the beginning of the end.

 
Aug 6, 2014
69
7
8
Mississippi
Nothing said they couldn't and the gear race began.
The gear race is what's hilarious to me. An obstacle like a fence made from pipe used to create a tougher position is turned into a stable platform with a $100 bag or whatever the latest gadget is; and like some women with clothes, we keep lining up like sheep to order the next "tool" to make us "better shooters."

I've only shot in a few matches and as with anything where there's more than a few people, I've encountered a few dicks. But, the folks that introduced us to this sport do wear the team shirts, and you will not find a nicer, more moral group of people in the world.

 
Likes: pizfiz

Rob01

Super Mod/Team Blaster
Staff member
Jul 9, 2001
9,631
616
113
NC
www.teamblaster.net
The gear race is what's hilarious to me. An obstacle like a fence made from pipe used to create a tougher position is turned into a stable platform with a $100 bag or whatever the latest gadget is; and like some women with clothes, we keep lining up like sheep to order the next "tool" to make us "better shooters."
Been like that for years in the shooting community. If it's allowed then it will be used whether caliber or gear. Nothing new but MDs have started to limit bag use so people don't look like the marshmallow man running up to a stage.
 
Likes: pizfiz

pizfiz

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 8, 2014
78
8
8
I would HATE see to those making the various bags and props we use have a harder time making money. BUT, it does feel really weird carrying all the shit needed to be competitive. If you're shooting for score, you really have no choice.

I shot my first PRS style match about a year ago. Showed up with a pack, sling, Kestrel, rear bag and a couple of extra mags. Shit, I thought I was being super tactical and even brought an arm board. I then got to the match and was blown away by some of the more competitive shooters and their kits. I have since added a couple bigger bags and used them in several matches since. They do help, but it still feels cheesy. Personally, I would love to see more matches where the kit was more limited by the MD. I am sure they exist, but I just haven't been around as much to know.
 

Conrad

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 28, 2006
1,406
72
48
TX
I haven't shot a match since all the pillow bags got so popular. I picked one up to practice with in preparation, and I get it. Top competitors will carry whateve they can to push performance results. I might even carry one,but I won't carry 6 bags. I think defining a stage or even a match as "open" or "restricted gear" adds another dynamic and fun. Thinking outside the box is fun but rising to the challenge that the MD has envisioned is also a challenge. As a minimalist backpack hunter I try to approach matches with practical gear that I would carry in the field. Thus I really enjoy matches such as the steel safari that are built around the natural terrain. It would seem some of the last SH Cups were like this too. Another cool thing about the SS is every shooter is the RO for the shooter behind them. I know not all matches can be set up this way, but it's keeps it so shooters are separated from sharing info and when you have to be an RO I think it places more accountability. Lastly, these matches are a privilege and all parties involved should be shown respect. It's about challenging yourself as a shooter, improving through competition and being around like minded people. Fighting amongst ourselves over a point or 2 or feeling left out from a prize table is trivial. At the end of the day we all go back to our jobs so why ruin a nice weekend.
 
Jan 27, 2013
167
15
18
51
So Cal Mountains
I did this years Brawl & the train-up, my first PRS match. The RO's did a great job. Being my first prize table match (Great prizes & a lot of them THANKS LISA) i figured it was standard operating procedure to reward the RO's. I finished mid pack & got a nice prize (300 Bergers). The funny thing about all this is Jacob thought his new safety rules would cause this $hit storm & I did hear lots of complaining about it. I didn't hear anyone say anything about the RO's going to the prize table but it was a big group. Great match would do it again with out the prize table. BTW Jacob is a fundamental type of guy, no gear race. Very few stages you could use a bag.
 

kengel2

Sergeant
Dec 1, 2009
434
16
18
Bedico, Louisiana
I would HATE see to those making the various bags and props we use have a harder time making money. BUT, it does feel really weird carrying all the shit needed to be competitive. If you're shooting for score, you really have no choice.

I shot my first PRS style match about a year ago. Showed up with a pack, sling, Kestrel, rear bag and a couple of extra mags. Shit, I thought I was being super tactical and even brought an arm board. I then got to the match and was blown away by some of the more competitive shooters and their kits. I have since added a couple bigger bags and used them in several matches since. They do help, but it still feels cheesy. Personally, I would love to see more matches where the kit was more limited by the MD. I am sure they exist, but I just haven't been around as much to know.
I agree, maybe the match provides whatever "props" or bags for each stage. Everyone uses the same bag or "prop". Only allow rifles, slings, and mags from the shooter. Although, Id hate to see this slow down product development as some things that have been developed because of the gamers have been pretty damn cool. Maybe an idea for the production class(dont know the name) or something.
 

Conrad

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 28, 2006
1,406
72
48
TX
Let their be gamer stages and let the vendors continue to innovate and sell products. But by keeping some stages as restricted makes the sport that much more dynamic.
 

rookie7

Sergeant
Jan 26, 2009
550
53
28
Georgia
I am glad Frank addressed this, and hope he and others in the community can stop this "elitism" before it gets too far gone.

I told my wife about the letter - she is not a shooter or hunter - and her mouth dropped when she heard the story. Entitlement - pure and simple. I see it everyday in the field of education and used to as a high school coach. 99.9% of the time from worthless individuals who decided to procreate, but have no idea what being a good parent is all about.

Back to this issue - I can't believe - well, I can - what the a-hole said to Frank about "deserving" a different level of treatment. Someone please ban that person for life from this sport. They have nothing to offer, and that kind of mindset in an adult cannot be changed by us.

Thanks again Frank for being direct and telling it like it is.
 

MATADOR

Full Member
Mar 5, 2017
505
21
18
Reminds me of bass fishing tournaments... used to be so much fun, until the prizes and the money got serious. Not fun anymore, not fun at all. Quit fishing tournaments so I would still enjoy fishing, looks like I'm headed the same direction with shooting.
 
Feb 17, 2017
170
0
0
Iowa
I would be one of those guys that consider this a "vacation" to go out and shoot, to have fun! "never won anything in my life" but man... attending a big match to compete would be a GREAT experience, i would also look like a complete rookie hahaha!
 
Nov 5, 2013
935
738
93
I did this years Brawl & the train-up, my first PRS match. The RO's did a great job. Being my first prize table match (Great prizes & a lot of them THANKS LISA) i figured it was standard operating procedure to reward the RO's. I finished mid pack & got a nice prize (300 Bergers). The funny thing about all this is Jacob thought his new safety rules would cause this $hit storm & I did hear lots of complaining about it. I didn't hear anyone say anything about the RO's going to the prize table but it was a big group. Great match would do it again with out the prize table. BTW Jacob is a fundamental type of guy, no gear race. Very few stages you could use a bag.
this is not directed at you mojavejim, you just brought up the point... this is a good point for everyone complaining about the gear being used...the brawl limited it one bag (or even no bag) on almost every stage...same names ended up at the top, so whats the difference?
dont wanna use the extra gear? dont...what do you think YOU'RE gaining by limiting what others can use? ...at the PRS finale you had to carry all gear with you throughout the stages so most guys only brought what they felt was necessity...MDs can sway a match to more/less gear depending on how they set it up and im completely fine with that, but complaining about gear you dont have or dont wanna buy is weak...shoot it how YOU want to shoot it and dont suck
 
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kengel2

Sergeant
Dec 1, 2009
434
16
18
Bedico, Louisiana
this is not directed at you mojavejim, you just brought up the point... this is a good point for everyone complaining about the gear being used...the brawl limited it one bag (or even no bag) on almost every stage...same names ended up at the top, so whats the difference?
dont wanna use the extra gear? dont...what do you think YOU'RE gaining by limiting what others can use? ...at the PRS finale you had to carry all gear with you throughout the stages so most guys only brought what they felt was necessity...MDs can sway a match to more/less gear depending on how they set it up and im completely fine with that, but complaining about gear you dont have or dont wanna buy is weak...shoot it how YOU want to shoot it and dont suck
I get what you are saying, but on the flip side I've been at a match where I shot the stage as intended and watched countless others game the stage. I shot well and the entire stage was thrown out of the match. Pretty crappy of the competitors to game a stage out of a match instead of shooting it like intended. I applaud the md for throwing it out even though it impacted me negatively.

It was just an idea to use what is provided to avoid that happening. If the idea is to grow the sport then keeping it honest is the best thing despite what you think. Seems like this whole feeling is from people being dishonest. So take from that what you will. Matches are a vacation and fun for me. I will never have the time to put in to win one and will always shoot it how it was intended. If I get a prize...great....I have picked up some really cool gear that I wouldnt have otherwise. So the prize table has helped greatly, but if it didn't exist to get rid of the trouble makers is give it up in a heartbeat.

Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk

 
Nov 5, 2013
935
738
93
I get what you are saying, but on the flip side I've been at a match where I shot the stage as intended and watched countless others game the stage. I shot well and the entire stage was thrown out of the match. Pretty crappy of the competitors to game a stage out of a match instead of shooting it like intended. I applaud the md for throwing it out even though it impacted me negatively.

It was just an idea to use what is provided to avoid that happening. If the idea is to grow the sport then keeping it honest is the best thing despite what you think. Seems like this whole feeling is from people being dishonest. So take from that what you will. Matches are a vacation and fun for me. I will never have the time to put in to win one and will always shoot it how it was intended. If I get a prize...great....I have picked up some really cool gear that I wouldnt have otherwise. So the prize table has helped greatly, but if it didn't exist to get rid of the trouble makers is give it up in a heartbeat.

Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk
i havent been to a match where a stage has been thrown out because of that, but i have been in your shoes...last years NM match they had a tire half filled with cement with a chain running thru the center, suspended...so you had to balance the off balance weight of the tire while tryin to shoot...i happened to be first up that stage and it was my first time to shoot that match...i shot it fighting the tire the whole time tryin to hold the cement up with a knee, think i hit 5/8...then i watched the next guy walk up and put a tripod under the heavy part of the tire to support and basically make the tire a bench to shoot off of...it was a great idea...then everyone else in the group shot it the same way and basically all hit 5-6/8 also...

i dont mind limiting equipment ever, but one thing i dont want, for sure, is having to use other provided gear/equipment other than my own...im 6'5/230 and run my bipod higher than most everyone out there, why should i have to use a rear bag the same size as Frank, or vise versa...if its a tripod stage, i dont want to use a raggedy $100 aluminum job, when i have my RRS...almost every barricade out there where other guys kneel and use a bag between their knee/elbow for support, i can put my elbow on my knee without a need for a bag...i could set up a course of fire where i had a huge advantage by saying no bags allowed and making everything a few inches too tall for everyone else...limit the shooters gear, but dont provide forced equipment, different people shoot things different ways and IMO thats a good thing
 

MarinePMI

Battery Operated Grunt
Jun 3, 2010
3,226
1,753
113
San Diego, Ca
i havent been to a match where a stage has been thrown out because of that, but i have been in your shoes...last years NM match they had a tire half filled with cement with a chain running thru the center, suspended...so you had to balance the off balance weight of the tire while tryin to shoot...i happened to be first up that stage and it was my first time to shoot that match...i shot it fighting the tire the whole time tryin to hold the cement up with a knee, think i hit 5/8...then i watched the next guy walk up and put a tripod under the heavy part of the tire to support and basically make the tire a bench to shoot off of...it was a great idea...then everyone else in the group shot it the same way and basically all hit 5-6/8 also...
I hated that stage! :cool: The vehicle one was a bitch as well...
 

Carnivore

Sergeant of the Hide
Sep 8, 2004
217
0
16
Soon to be Texas
Frank, youre spot on. That's one of the biggest reasons you don't see me at the matches any more. Its gotten flat stupid the level of dumbassery Ive seen. Back in the day (yeah I know, most of you don't know me from Adam, but still...) we went to a match and were happy to be shooting for a (semi) nice trophy. Or if it was a really good match, maybe we pulled a nice knife off the table. Now people wont even GO to a match unless there is $50K worth of swag on the table. Times, they are a-changin'!
I know you 2!
 

FALex

Gunny Sergeant
Feb 5, 2011
1,560
34
48
36
USA
i havent been to a match where a stage has been thrown out because of that, but i have been in your shoes...last years NM match they had a tire half filled with cement with a chain running thru the center, suspended...so you had to balance the off balance weight of the tire while tryin to shoot...i happened to be first up that stage and it was my first time to shoot that match...i shot it fighting the tire the whole time tryin to hold the cement up with a knee, think i hit 5/8...then i watched the next guy walk up and put a tripod under the heavy part of the tire to support and basically make the tire a bench to shoot off of...it was a great idea...then everyone else in the group shot it the same way and basically all hit 5-6/8 also...

i dont mind limiting equipment ever, but one thing i dont want, for sure, is having to use other provided gear/equipment other than my own...im 6'5/230 and run my bipod higher than most everyone out there, why should i have to use a rear bag the same size as Frank, or vise versa...if its a tripod stage, i dont want to use a raggedy $100 aluminum job, when i have my RRS...almost every barricade out there where other guys kneel and use a bag between their knee/elbow for support, i can put my elbow on my knee without a need for a bag...i could set up a course of fire where i had a huge advantage by saying no bags allowed and making everything a few inches too tall for everyone else...limit the shooters gear, but dont provide forced equipment, different people shoot things different ways and IMO thats a good thing
Kind of funny to watch one guy or gal "break the code," and that's it...most others follow suit. I think that we are likely to start seeing gear limitations and to have COF's shot "in the spirit" of the COF's intended manner of being shot. RO's and MD's will become ever-more thoughtful when developing their COF's and will be able to anticipate/restrict some of the gaming aspects. Then again, some shooters are just so damn good that it is flat out becoming necessary to place gear restrictions on some of the COF's. To take out all of these aspects would undoubtedly suck because figuring out some of these puzzles is part of the fun.
 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,750
1,007
113
Arizona, good place for me...
I have known Frank since the predecessor site to SH; and while we are not as close now as once we were, I also freely acknowledge that where blame for that is due, it falls directly upon myself.

I have stayed clear of these competitions for a reason. Back when the site began organizing comps like the SHC, and then lending its mana to PRS, I shied away. Very simply, money is the root of all evil, and I saw plenty of it looming near.

This is not about PRS, or SHC, or even about Frank. It's about my own experience with running organizations that sponsor shooting events. My own experience had to do with the Carlos Hathcock Match's origins, and SH was very deeply involved in its successful origination. From the start, it was heavily endowed with the idea that lucrative prizes spawn the wrong kind of competition. I won't define that; I can't because the human mind is far more ingenious about weaseling around rules and finding unfair advantage than I could ever enumerate. Attempts to ride herd on such things rapidly deteriorate into a vast whack-a-mole enterprise which I never envied or admired. Far simpler to avoid the whole area of bringing honey to the bees.

This was coming, inevitably. Frank's only failing here is in that he has courage of a sort I could only admire from afar. He takes the admonition we Marines all receive in Boot Camp: to turn to face the sound of gunfire, and advance, to heart. He does it better than most.

Sometimes you just have to stir the pot before the entire stew burns, no matter that the meal is of another's making. He did, he pays a price, and he knew it was coming. I say Bravo, Frank, and don't sweat the details; the juggernaut has been nudged into a better direction, and the real work can finally commence.

Whatever the outcome, it will be a better one for your courage, You have to start somewhere. He did.

Greg
 

LawnMM

Harbinger of Sarcasm
Jul 5, 2009
1,845
267
83
Colorado
www.accuracy-tech.com
Tropy the top ten, after that load everybody's name into a list, including the ROs. Randomly assign prizes by number to RO names first, then do the same for everybody else. The top ten get a trophy, everybody else had their prize randomly assigned before they even shot the match. Hell you could hand it out with the T Shirts. Do it before the match even starts.

The idiots only showing up for a prize will leave. Everybody else can shoot the match for fun like it's supposed to be.

Track who's present for the t shirt and prize and who finishes the match. If a pattern emerges, like paying the match fee, taking the prize and leaving, blacklist that guy.

For everyone else you already have whatever you're going to get when you show up. No incentive to stay unless you're there for the fun of it. Maybe some new guy with a Tasco gets randomly picked for a Nightforce. Now he's got time to mount it and use it in the match.

Cheating? What would be the point aside from points? They should eliminate cash prizes in PRS. Take those giant checks for thousands of dollars that members paid for and buy extra swag so everyone at every match gets a little something. If you want to do something nice for the top 3 guys at seasons end that's fine but it shouldn't be a check.

The materialism is the problem. So just remove that element, make it pure chance, and you all but eliminate the incentive to cheat and game the system.
 

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
701
254
63
The Frozen Tundra
Kind of funny to watch one guy or gal "break the code," and that's it...most others follow suit. I think that we are likely to start seeing gear limitations and to have COF's shot "in the spirit" of the COF's intended manner of being shot. RO's and MD's will become ever-more thoughtful when developing their COF's and will be able to anticipate/restrict some of the gaming aspects. Then again, some shooters are just so damn good that it is flat out becoming necessary to place gear restrictions on some of the COF's. To take out all of these aspects would undoubtedly suck because figuring out some of these puzzles is part of the fun.
I'm hoping these matches become more prevalent.
 

The King

Showercookie Monster
Sep 17, 2004
1,063
302
83
Denver, Colorado
I'm thinking there should be two circuits with a simple switch between them.

"Took money or gear from a vendor? Go to the door with a giant asshole painted on it...this here is 55lbs of various cacti you have to carry with you at all times during the match..."

"No vendor sponsorship? Go through this door to the 'have fun' match."
 
Jun 11, 2012
255
15
18
Gainesville, VA
I know I'm a few months late to this thread but I wanted to add something. IDPA solved this problem long ago and every year they are growing larger and larger. How did they do this? Only major matches have prize tables and it's 100% random. Everyone else who places in the top of their division gets a trophy or award. Result? In 4 years of shooting major matches, I have NEVER heard of, nor experienced drama with a prize table. Not to mention it keeps the costs down and even major matches are like $100 to shoot.
 
Jun 18, 2004
316
119
43
51
Indiana
I almost never post here but do a lot of shooting....went to a PRS match on the Arkansas border and was having a small issue with my dope so I asked one of the sponsored shooters a question to which he replied "you need better equipment". Was a total dick to me and so was his 3 foot tall partner. I was shooting a high end rifle with a high end optic but just wanted a second opinion on what I was seeing. Had no expectations of winning but was there to have fun and learn. That was last year and myself nor the 3 guys I went with will ever attend another one in that area. We felt like we were an inconvenience to them. We now have our own local range at a buddies house and shoot the PRS match rules and stages all the time. Still love shooting but done with that type of shoot. Glad to hear it was not just my observation.
 
Jun 18, 2004
316
119
43
51
Indiana
Heck Frank...some of us would put you up (room and board)(beverages later)(possible steaks) set up some stages and be honored to shoot with you and some of the guys on here. Have to come to Indiana though!!lol
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
3,682
1,453
113
59
Central Florida
Tazman, if you ever get down here in Central Florida, look me up. We run regular local one-day matches that are great fun and with good people. Since we see so many new people, a good part of our focus is helping them as needed.

That doesn't mean the stages are easy, just that they are accessible. Since we don't have any sponsored shooters bothering us because we're small potatoes, it stays friendly but still competitive.
 
Likes: Rocketvapor

FishDr

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 10, 2014
430
41
28
southern IL
Lash … that sounds like a perfect match.
Taz, let us know where you are located in IN. Might not be too far away for a get together!
And Frank … you are spot on! This has been a problem at several matches ive been to and discussed with other shooters. Not yet seen it in small, local matches. The ones i shoot now - the "prize" is a hand shake and a generous dose of harassment (all in good sport) at the end. Winner gets to collect the "close" targets.
 
Jun 18, 2004
316
119
43
51
Indiana
I live just West of Indy and the range we shoot at is just outside of Terra haute. We run some pretty hard matches and have really good stages but it's just for fun and a trophy. No prizes or anything but we have a good lunch and have a blast. We help each other get better and let everyone use what ever equipment we have to see if they like it. Non of us are wealthy but we buy the best we can and use it to the best of our ability. We all use to like going to a big match now and then but got tired of being treated like crap because we were just there to have fun and learn. I'm sure not all are like that but we just do our own thing now and travel to a couple of close matches just to say we've been there.
 
Feb 19, 2017
159
37
28
USA
I am one of those shitbirds that sells things. It's because I am a window licking sham specialist in the Army. I get paid $2000 per month. It's not a whole hell of a lot. It's definitely not enough to go to rifle matches and have any sort of social/non-army life. Yes I wish I was an E6 or married and making more money. But guess what...once I get that far, I am no longer going to be anywhere near the role of "shooter" as far as the Army is concerned. I have already passed the point where the training value is lost on me. One of the main draws of these matches is that it is supposed to be helpful for active duty folks to be more effective on the battlefield. At the same time, the equipment race prices a lot of us out of being truly competitive.

The first big match I shot was the NF Steel City match. It was fun and I did pretty well. Even beat the Remington team in their fancy jerseys (I think they had a bad couple of days). I finished a third of the way down the list; not great but a respectable performance. I walked away with a McRee's chassis for a Remington 700. I don't own a 700, and I had no plans of building one at that point. Guess what I used that money for? Go to the SEPRCA Championship and the Mammoth Sniper challenge. I regret going to both of those because I had unsolved gun-drama at SEPRCA that I thought I solved before Mammoth, but had not. I basically had two matches where I didn't hit a dang thing because my barrel is shot out (that's my current guess).

In fact the only reason I finished Mammoth, is because my buddy kept telling me we need to at least finish since we spent the money to come there, and it would put us higher on the prize table. I am not afraid to admit that I'm kind of a selfish asshole. I was ready and willing to quit on the first day. I was that unprepared for Kentucky, and that frustrated with having a shot-out barrel. Or bad ammo. Or something that caused the rifle that shot stellar at Steel City to shoot very poorly. And I suffered during Mammoth. Mammoth sucks when you have no real cold weather experience. Guess what kind of boots I brought? Summer jungle boots. Socks? Try standard issue green cotton socks. Glove? My gloves were toast on the first day and I used a pair of socks to cover my hands that I found on the ground. Will I shoot Mammoth again? Hopefully not. It sucked. It was not fun. I hurt my team by not being prepared. But Ill probably get conned into going back, and do better next year.

But guess what the result of all this is? I know that I am nominally at least good enough to recoup some costs to go to matches. And now I have a rifle being built that should be ideal for PRS matches. I have used Mil-discounts to help offset some costs for equipment. So guess what happened because Scott McRee donated some chassis to the Steel City match? I went and shot two more matches, and plan on shooting a bunch more this year. And some guy now has a McRee chassis somewhere and probably loves it; that guy might even shoot a PRS Match.

What would have happened if I kept it? Well it would have sat in a corner for a few years. I would be limited to 1 or 2 matches a year. I probably wouldn't shoot them and just focus on fishing or some other hobby. But now because I can go out to more matches, in part because in-direct sponsorship through prizes, whoever's stuff that I happen to be using does get somewhat free advertisement. Surgeon got some money for an action from me. So did Lilja barrels. Some other guys got money for their used parts like a KMW stock, CG Trigger, and whatnot. People get to play with my dumb Bushnell Gen II DMR scope and ask me "Oh well how do you like that?" And I get to shoot more matches and get some sort of training value out of it.

Shooters can be some of the specialist snowflakes out there. The more I learn about the behind the scenes stuff that happens, the more it resembles middle school. But the more I learn about anything the more it resembles middle school. There is always someone that is going to whine and complain, and there is always someone to complain about the complainers. And there's always someone that thinks that they can do it better. Most shooters are pretty generous, but they can also be petty to a fault. And they also tend to focus a lot on the bad, and not enough on the good. The first match I attended, I brought a friend of mine, and he shot his Savage LRP the whole time; duct taped a cartridge box to the buttstock to single load, and went at it. I joked about him getting a pity prize after the first day and told him to stick with it. And no-shit...he actually did get a pity prize for good sportsmanship...a whole custom rifle on a McRee's chassis. Guess what? He's going all in on this stupid sport now because of that act of generosity.

Rant over. More beer.
out of the shooter role as a sham shield? no way, you just need to volunteer again, the recruiting signs are most likely all over you post.
 

tex68w

Full Member
Mar 10, 2017
319
23
18
As someone who is new to PRS and thinking of trying my hand at a match soon, this news disheartens me and almost spoils the entire idea for myself. There are bad apples in every group, but I hate to hear that this entitlement attitude is so prevalent in that community. I have been down to RO for a class and loved every second of it, sad to hear that sanctioned shoots can be a different story. I still plan to attend and try my hand at an event soon, but maybe I'll limit that to a local club shoot only and avoid the paid for drama for the most part.
 

TheGerman

Oberleutnant
Jan 25, 2010
4,470
2,498
113
Out West
As someone who is new to PRS and thinking of trying my hand at a match soon, this news disheartens me and almost spoils the entire idea for myself. There are bad apples in every group, but I hate to hear that this entitlement attitude is so prevalent in that community. I have been down to RO for a class and loved every second of it, sad to hear that sanctioned shoots can be a different story. I still plan to attend and try my hand at an event soon, but maybe I'll limit that to a local club shoot only and avoid the paid for drama for the most part.
I got into it briefly when it started to evolve. Beforehand, all you had was 'matches' at square gun ranges mainly off a benchrest or at least all lined up on the firing line somehow with everything being some form of already existing competition class shooting.

When I lived in Florida, a few places started hosting PRS type (before PRS was the standard name/class/whatever for it) and it was more on practical shooting where you just didn't sit/lay prone the entire time having to actually factor in movement/breaking positions and shooting from something other than a bench or laying on your stomach. This started getting me interested because this is what I had really excelled at in the real world. This was around the time everything started to have Tactical in the name if it was firearm related. Hell, I was still using a MIL reticle and MOA turrets.

It was great at first. You'd see some of the guys during the week while shooting and it was like fight club; you were practicing and scheming on how to beat everyone. Equipment came into play a bit more (nowhere near as much as now, I think) and it was all about reps. You both couldn't wait for the next one, yet you were never sure you were ready for it either.

It wasn't very long until this evolved further and gained a little ground and became part gear show and part Buffalo Bill circus where you had to balance yourself on the side of a doghouse, while using a hula hoop and singing the national anthem for no other reason than because someone thought it was different. While I could deal with this and often figured out crafty ways of shooting, what really made me lose interest fast was what I can only describe as the flat bill white hat wearing bro truck bros of the shooting community being attracted this this for some weird reason. Not soon after, things started to become less about shooting and more about bullshit and the beginnings of the prize table fiasco/attitude that is becoming more common, detailed in the original post.

At this point, if I want to shoot PRS, I'll go shoot off the hood of an Osh Kosh while people throw rip-its at me in Afghanistan or something.
 
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littlehendrick

Slowly Learning
Feb 11, 2017
94
24
8
California...I blame Work
After moving down from Alaska this summer, I finally got to start going to PRS matches. I am still in the process of saving for my optics and rifle, so I took the chance to RO at the MPA fall match, as well as down at CORE.

Is there gaming of stages? Absolutely, but I see that as a challenge of being a stage designer. I come from a USPSA back ground, where the rule book is stupid thick, and stage instructions are fairly detailed in an attempt to reduce "gaming." I appreciate how small the PRS rule book is (27 pages). The stage instructions I have seen have sometimes left the door open, and sometimes have been restrictive (on purpose). On one stage I RO'ed, understanding how to build positions (and how they tied to the stage brief) made it slightly more simple. On another stage, the guys with RRS tripods that were shared crushed it, while other squads without solid tripods struggled. In the same way, was the group with the tripods unfair compared to others?

For the CORE match, George made an interesting choice to randomly give away the rifle that was given for the prize table. His comment was that with most rifles, they always end up going to the guy (or gal) who won, so why not make it more interesting. He included the RO's in the raffle. Now I am biased towards this method, as I ended up winning the rifle (the first guy placed 85th, but had left early). Now I have a rifle, and am much closer than expected to having a complete gun to compete with.

Making some of the nicer stuff on the prize table available to those of us who aren't so good, seems special. Like others have said, some people don't have the best equipment, and could use the prize from the table.

Sorry for a lot set of ramblings, but as someone new to the sport, it has been interesting to interact with all of the shooters as they come through stages, and see their interactions with others, especially around prize table time.
 
Likes: jd138
May 17, 2010
362
1
18
Georgia
I don't know these people you are talking about. That is probably because I shoot to have fun and it's only me vs me. Search out and get to know the many great guys that are glad to help you out. Be humble and respectful. A short story.........

I was shooting a 600 Yd club match and started to pack it in because I couldn't figure out the wind. A quiet gentleman asked if I needed a little help and I said please. He got on the spotting scope and told me where to hold and wait for him to tell me when to shoot. I shot great and when I got up to thank him he was gone. I asked someone who he was. John Whidden.

Unless you are earning a living by shooting, chill. Besides if you are over 55 and just getting into the game you will never beat the sponsored shooters anyway.
 
Likes: jd138

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
701
254
63
The Frozen Tundra
At the end of the day this is just a game for 99% of us. I watched my performance at matches fall off sharply at matches when I started to take it too seriously. The trick is to keep in mind that is just a game & the only person that you are competing against is, you. Unless you are a MD or are running a series yourself, you can't really control how others act or shoot.

It it would be awesome if everyone played by the rules and everyone had a level playing field. But life doesn't work that way. Take care of your own business. Hold yourself to a high moral standard. Everything else has a way of working itself out in the long run.
 
May 31, 2017
250
97
28
I just shot my first prs match this past week in Ohio. I had a great time and met some great people. The guy who won the match and is now currently ranked number 1 in the standing gave his prize away to someone. I don't know where that shooter finished or if it was a buddy of his but it was really cool to see someone who wasn't a top guy walk away with a surgeon action.
 
Feb 12, 2017
14
9
3
Ohio
www.facebook.com
Don't be those guys! William Dawson cheating on a self sqauded and scored local match (NWPRL JC Steel match). Penciling himself in for hits he never got and then adamantly denying it until forced to. Now after cheating to try and win a local level match he's been dropped by every sponsor and his name has been drug through the dirt across the sport.

He's also been banned from the NWPRL until 2019 so he threw away everything for a few points at a local level match and the sport is so small that its already got around and he probably wont be comfortable shooting anywhere.