Don't be THESE GUYS... the Death of Precision Rifle

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Here is my question for the PRS, what is the point of a governing board if it's not gonna police the shooters ? I have been told that the PRS is like NASCAR, a race featuring the very best shooters. Like that the PRS is a National Points Race across a season, ending in a finale. Well instead of monitoring the matches, You should be monitoring the shooters. Because right now there is no fear of any consequences if they act in an unsportsmanlike manner.

I get it, they have reprimanded guys for bigger, more public issues, but they over look the smaller more common problems. With A type personalities a simple ass chewing is not always enough.

Subtracting points may also incline other shooters to step up. One less threat for the finale.

Yes I threw a grenade, but I am also willing to discuss a solution. One people can see as a step forward.

In private we all talk about and have identified problem areas, could be an inexperienced RO to cheating, its beeen long enough the series is established now it has to address stuff at this level. Pretending everyone is a Pro and above all this is not doing anyone any favors
 
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Cksniper

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It is reassuring to see such a post. There have been some things eating at me for quite a while now.

I work in the industry. I am not new to professional shooting but I am new to the PRS curicuit. I wore a jersey and had product sponsorships. I had the pleasure of meeting many shooters including those from other teams. I found the shooters all very personable and a few I consider to be very nice and good hearted people. I believe the folks running the events are likewise good-hearted human beings who love the sport and want to see it grow.

However....

I am afraid that you may be correct in some instances. This year, due to other budgetary priorities, I do not have the luxury of having fees, travel and product costs covered by the company. Accordingly, I cannot afford to pay out of pockets to shoot the events. Don't get me wrong here....Companies change priorities all all the time. That happens and is simply business. I have no complaints there, as I've also had to make such decisions.

When I informed the team "leader" (who is no longer with the company) that I couldn't meet the event participation requirement because of the associated costs, I was given some advice. "If you place high enough at the events, you get the better prizes that you can turn around and sell to fund your next event. That's what I do, and that's what many of the top shooters are doing. Even if you don't place high enough for a prize that covers all costs, you can at least offset them".

Let me back up and make a point. Prior to what I just wrote, I happened to have placed high enough in an event that I was able to select from what was left on the prize table after it was picked clean by the top scorers. Amongst the left over shirts, patches and stickers, I found and chose a custom barrel sitting alone on the end of the table. I thought it would make an interesting niche rifle. But when I got home, I realized that It would be some time before I would actually do it. I was told I could sell it for at least $350. But something didn't feel right about selling it, as I work for a company that sponsors events and that is not the sponsorship intent. There is something inherently wrong about profiting from a product donation. The point is to have people enjoy a sponsor's product, not profit from it. So instead, I posted online that I was interested in a trade, not for profit, but rather simply a cover for my silencer which I needed for one of my rifles. I wanted to basically "find a good home for it" where it would be put to good use and I was not concerned about the money, as it was never mine to begin with. So I shipped the heavy package at my cost and in return, received a lightweight box with a foam silencer cover. A good trade in my book.

Flash forward. I just ran acrossed a guy on a long range thread that was having a rifle built by a PRS-associated custom rifle company for the "production class". Yeah. You read that correctly. He even had a text from the company that it was a "production class rifle". It was 6.5 Creed, built on a blueprinted action and included the high end custom aluminum chassis with all the bells and whistles. As of that day, it WAS NOT listed n the PRS list f approved production class rifles. But he held to the position that he was not gaming the system. What? the PRS rules clearly state the intent for having a production class....so that new shooters could use standard, off the shelf rifle she and experience the game without the pressure or need for expensive equipment.

If I actually make it to a sanctioned event, I will not be wearing the team jersey. First, because I no longer use the optic that's is splashed all over it, but second, I do not want the growing stigma attached to team jerseys. I will proudly represent my company, but in a much more subtle and humble fashion. A logo shirt and hat perhaps. But I do not profess to be a great shooter, nor do I want to be seen as a product whore by anyone. That's not me and it is not the image our brand wants to have. I grew tired very quickly of having to spend time promoting products from other companies in addition to the one that feeds my kids and the very few who are considered marketing partners.

Anyway, this was a long way to say that I appreciate the fact that apparently I'm not the only person bothered by what I've been sensing at events. It is trending toward becoming a tight knit club dominated by flashy, well supported shooters. I hope that the good folks running the events can continue to attract new shooters to the great sport of long range shooting. New shooters need a chance to win donated prizes, not simply get their butts kicked, then stand there and watch the same top dogs get all the good stuff, most of which they already have. As a someone who works for a company that sponsors shooters, it is more beneficial for product to end up in the hands of new shooters who will use them to enjoy the sport, improve their skills and become true ambassadors for the brand.
 

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In my talks since SHOT SHOW, I am asking the bigger sponsors to consider things like return of entry fees. Why they may not be able to give a prize to 38 events, if they take the cost of 4 prizes and break it down to entry fees, they can support 16 events with 2 shooters getting their money back, it's a small step, and I think having more matches is a way to help reduce costs, but reducing travel.

So now instead of more "prizes" that we know will end up for sale, which I honesty get. We become more creative in how we dole out prizes.

Here is the problem with the sponsored shooters, they do a very bad job at thanking the sponsors on a whole because they are loyal to the guys on their shirts. During the off season I had at least 1/2 dozen sponsors call me and complain that the ROI just was not there and the emails saying thank you are becoming less and less every month. Where they do see a ROI and to a company they said this, was attending the match either as a competitor or Range Officer. They said what they get in return showing up by far eclipse just sending a product to the matches. Some guys are spending well over $25k a year and saw next to nothing. Most of the guys in the running for points or who are attending more than one match a year usually don't need anything. Sure a few here and there, but over all they already have it.

When a guys who is sponsored and sells a product, he knows walking up he is gonnna sell it, there is not reason to say thanks, his priority is to turn it around for the cash to get the next match.
 

SlagAxe

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Right on Frank. The USPSA magazine (Front Sight) has articles or editorials about this sort of thing at least a few times a year. Most of it is centered around new shooters being treated poorly, displays of poor sportsmanship, calling out cheaters.. in one way or another trying to stamp out the ugliness that sometimes rears its head and make it all less attractive. I am glad you did the same thing here, especially given the influence of your voice, because it needed to be done. As for ROs, they have nothing but admiration from me.

I once watched an RO allow a new shooter (a cop) go way over time and just try and instruct the guy, who was probably already feeling the pressure knowing a group of us watching. This guy had a deer rifle and was probably going to come in last place. A regular, and skilled, shooter starting yelling at the RO about both the time and the coaching and I am sure made this guy feel even worse. Fortunately the RO snapped at him hard. The rest of just wanted to strangle the huffing and puffing jackass. This was about 4 years ago and we never saw that shooter again. What a shame.

No shooting sport will grow without attracting new shooters and being friendly to the regular Joe weekend warrior (like myself). This an expensive sport and for most people to shell out the sums it takes to compete they first have to really, really, like it. Liking it includes being able to admire the top shooters and having confidence in those who govern the sport to make decisions for everyone, not just the prima ballerinas.
 
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Rob01

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It's not just sponsored shooters that sell items from the table though so the finger can not be pointed just at them. I know guys who aren't sponsored that do it for the same reason to help recoup expenses. And before anyone gets all excited and assumes it's thought of as an entitlement it's not but once an item belongs to a shooter it's theirs to do with it as they please. If they need to recoup some money and don;t need the item then they sell it and someone else gets a good deal on an item they need. I used to do it when I wasn't sponsored and do it now for the same reason if I don't need the item. Not everyone needs everything on the table. I always send emails of thanks though for items pulled off the table. I might not be using it but I appreciate it being there and helping my shooting addiction.

Seems like there are two arguments that are getting intertwined but really don't have anything to do with one another.

1. People feeling entitled to a prize table

2. People selling an item they pull from the prize table.

1 is completely wrong. No one is entitled to a prize for going to a match. I think we have beat this up but however the MD feels like is a fair way to do it is fine with me. I have been to all types. I like one way mentioned which is let top 10 pick and then draw the rest. That seems about fairest way to reward the highest shooters but then also give everyone else a chance at a good prize. Trophies and draw is a fine way too.

2 is no one's business. Once that prize is drawn by the shooter it is theirs and last I checked this is America and we are still a free country. You want to sell it, burn it, give it away or tie it to a rope and drag it behind your truck then that is up to you as you got that prize. You should always thank the sponsor but it is yours to do as you please and I don;t see how anyone can argue otherwise. Being a new shooter doesn't entitle you to getting all the gear you need off the table either. We were all new at one point in time. Don't forget that.

And before anyone thinks that PRS prize tables are all that and that is why there is a problem and no other sport has a prize table then here is a pic of part of the prize table at the FNH 3 Gun match a couple years back. There were more guns and optics on another full row of tables not in the pic. Seems like 3 gun doesn't have an issue with awarding prizes.

 
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JustPlinking

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I haven't been on or posted much since the website switched a few times. That was a great post Low Light. Came across it by chance with google. Just wanted to say thanks. Many of us casual competitors have been snubbed by fucks like this.
 

BangBangBlatBlat

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It's not just sponsored shooters that sell items from the table though so the finger can not be pointed just at them. I know guys who aren't sponsored that do it for the same reason to help recoup expenses. And before anyone gets all excited and assumes it's thought of as an entitlement it's not but once an item belongs to a shooter it's theirs to do with it as they please. If they need to recoup some money and don;t need the item then they sell it and someone else gets a good deal on an item they need. I used to do it when I wasn't sponsored and do it now for the same reason if I don't need the item. Not everyone needs everything on the table. I always send emails of thanks though for items pulled off the table. I might not be using it but I appreciate it being there and helping my shooting addiction.

I am one of those shitbirds that sells things. It's because I am a window licking sham specialist in the Army. I get paid $2000 per month. It's not a whole hell of a lot. It's definitely not enough to go to rifle matches and have any sort of social/non-army life. Yes I wish I was an E6 or married and making more money. But guess what...once I get that far, I am no longer going to be anywhere near the role of "shooter" as far as the Army is concerned. I have already passed the point where the training value is lost on me. One of the main draws of these matches is that it is supposed to be helpful for active duty folks to be more effective on the battlefield. At the same time, the equipment race prices a lot of us out of being truly competitive.

The first big match I shot was the NF Steel City match. It was fun and I did pretty well. Even beat the Remington team in their fancy jerseys (I think they had a bad couple of days). I finished a third of the way down the list; not great but a respectable performance. I walked away with a McRee's chassis for a Remington 700. I don't own a 700, and I had no plans of building one at that point. Guess what I used that money for? Go to the SEPRCA Championship and the Mammoth Sniper challenge. I regret going to both of those because I had unsolved gun-drama at SEPRCA that I thought I solved before Mammoth, but had not. I basically had two matches where I didn't hit a dang thing because my barrel is shot out (that's my current guess).

In fact the only reason I finished Mammoth, is because my buddy kept telling me we need to at least finish since we spent the money to come there, and it would put us higher on the prize table. I am not afraid to admit that I'm kind of a selfish asshole. I was ready and willing to quit on the first day. I was that unprepared for Kentucky, and that frustrated with having a shot-out barrel. Or bad ammo. Or something that caused the rifle that shot stellar at Steel City to shoot very poorly. And I suffered during Mammoth. Mammoth sucks when you have no real cold weather experience. Guess what kind of boots I brought? Summer jungle boots. Socks? Try standard issue green cotton socks. Glove? My gloves were toast on the first day and I used a pair of socks to cover my hands that I found on the ground. Will I shoot Mammoth again? Hopefully not. It sucked. It was not fun. I hurt my team by not being prepared. But Ill probably get conned into going back, and do better next year.

But guess what the result of all this is? I know that I am nominally at least good enough to recoup some costs to go to matches. And now I have a rifle being built that should be ideal for PRS matches. I have used Mil-discounts to help offset some costs for equipment. So guess what happened because Scott McRee donated some chassis to the Steel City match? I went and shot two more matches, and plan on shooting a bunch more this year. And some guy now has a McRee chassis somewhere and probably loves it; that guy might even shoot a PRS Match.

What would have happened if I kept it? Well it would have sat in a corner for a few years. I would be limited to 1 or 2 matches a year. I probably wouldn't shoot them and just focus on fishing or some other hobby. But now because I can go out to more matches, in part because in-direct sponsorship through prizes, whoever's stuff that I happen to be using does get somewhat free advertisement. Surgeon got some money for an action from me. So did Lilja barrels. Some other guys got money for their used parts like a KMW stock, CG Trigger, and whatnot. People get to play with my dumb Bushnell Gen II DMR scope and ask me "Oh well how do you like that?" And I get to shoot more matches and get some sort of training value out of it.

Shooters can be some of the specialist snowflakes out there. The more I learn about the behind the scenes stuff that happens, the more it resembles middle school. But the more I learn about anything the more it resembles middle school. There is always someone that is going to whine and complain, and there is always someone to complain about the complainers. And there's always someone that thinks that they can do it better. Most shooters are pretty generous, but they can also be petty to a fault. And they also tend to focus a lot on the bad, and not enough on the good. The first match I attended, I brought a friend of mine, and he shot his Savage LRP the whole time; duct taped a cartridge box to the buttstock to single load, and went at it. I joked about him getting a pity prize after the first day and told him to stick with it. And no-shit...he actually did get a pity prize for good sportsmanship...a whole custom rifle on a McRee's chassis. Guess what? He's going all in on this stupid sport now because of that act of generosity.

Rant over. More beer.
 

Culpeper

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Well, this is an eye opener. We have egotistic fucks in the PRS world. Uh, I remember NASCAR when there were drivers with no sponsors. And that was the 1980s. The only reason there is no longer drivers without sponsors is because NASCAR screwed the pootch and forced them out. NASCAR is all about money but they police their race car drivers. Miss the morning meeting and you start at the end of the pack. Plenty of better drivers choosing not to race NASCAR. Who ever is saying PRS is like NASCAR is living in a unreal sex fantasy. Litz is right. Just give them a T-shirt for a year or two and then bump it up to a ribbon and then a trophy. You and RO tried to make it fun and rewarding and it has turned into greed for merchandise. One of the seven deadly sins.
 

Why1504

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I am 58 and have participated in competition since I was 6. Every sport has these kinds of issues but not this bad. That letter and those kinds of comments are over the top. Items on a prize table are prizes not bounty. This is not war. This is not an event where the victor takes the spoils. I seriously doubt anyone playing this game is making a great living shooting competitively much less becoming a millionaire at this sport.

A sport is only a sport when people show sportsmanship to the organization and to the other competitors. A guy took a sharpie to another competitors rifle and drew a Dick on it??? Really?? This is not a match director problem, it is a governing body problem. That "team" and its primary sponsor should be banned from sponsorship for a minimum of a year over that and the guy who drew the Dick should be banned forever.
 
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pizfiz

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I am seriously hoping that the people involved in the "sharpie dick drawing scenario" were buddies just screwing with each other (Not that it would make it ok). BUT, if this was something other than that, someone needs more than just DQ'd.
 

Culpeper

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Start issuing 1099s to the pros. It will cut down on a lot of this rushing to fence high dollar merchandise. The amateurs get a bye as isolated and occasional. I would hope the people sponsoring teams are already doing this. These guys really should not be attracting so much attention on themselves. At the end of the day it is just business.
 
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Rob01

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Start issuing 1099s to the pros. It will cut down on a lot of this rushing to fence high dollar merchandise. The amateurs get a bye as isolated and occasional. I would hope the people sponsoring teams are already doing this. These guys really should not be attracting so much attention on themselves. At the end of the day it is just business.
Yeah lets start screwing each other by bringing in the government. Great idea. Everything is better with the government involved. :rolleyes: And how long do you think the people you call "pros" will put up with the amateurs getting a "bye" before turning them in? Yeah let make this sport all about ratting out and screwing your buddy and fellow shooter.

And you say "fence" like they are selling stolen property. They won a prize and it's theirs to do with it what they want. Man I am really feeling sorry for this sport with the way it is going now. It used to be so much fun.
 
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Gunfighter14e2

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Yeah lets start screwing each other by bringing in the government. Great idea. Everything is better with the government involved. :rolleyes: And how long do you think the people you call "pros" will put up with the amateurs getting a "bye" before turning them in? Yeah let make this sport all about ratting out and screwing your buddy and fellow shooter.

And you say "fence" like they are selling stolen property. They won a prize and it's theirs to do with it what they want. Man I am really feeling sorry for this sport with the way it is going now. It used to be so much fun.
I agree with the folks who it's theirs they can do as wish. That said if I had to eat 1099's for all the cash over $2500.00 I won in Trap why should PRS be any different? 2.5 is a run of the mill scope these days. Granted the more you can keep the gov out the better for all, but 1099s will not be the doom of the sport. Just wait until you have to support your claim you had 45K in expenses for a 50K 1099. 1099s will not end the sport but, they sure do not help I can tell you that.
 

atomic41

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I have some food for thought but first, a little background. I came from the motorcycle racing world. I raced for many years and coached and did well. Along the way I had many sponsors, even two sponsors that gave me a factory level package. That means they gave me the same level sponsorship that they gave their pro teams. I will briefly explain my relationship with my sponsors then offer a suggestion.

In the off season every year, I submitted my race resume to existing and potential new sponsors. In my resume/proposal, I would list the things that I would do for my sponsors to give them an idea of the ROI and see what I would agree to up front. This also gives them an idea of what kind of sportsmanship I have. After signing agreements and starting the season, I would make good on my promises and give more. I created a website where I would list my sponsors and provide links to their websites. After every race weekend, I posted a race report, results, pictures, and big thanks to my sponsors, and family/friends that helped me. I e-mailed my sponsors with a thank you and link to the race reports so they could see how I was promoting them. It was a great relationship that I valued a lot. The amount of money to race bikes is crazy, you can spend thousands on a race weekend so sponsors help put a dent in your cost and I appreciated that. At the end of every season, I sent out thank you letters and as part of my agreement up front would appear at any events they had if they wanted me there to represent even in the off season.

I saw sponsors drop people for poor sportsmanship, or not representing their brand well and everytime I was happy to see that relationship terminated because the sponsored rider got what they deserved. That brings me to my food for thought. What if sponsors paid attention to how their shooters are representing their brand and held their shooters to a high standard or terminated their deal. If that were to happen, there are plenty of shooters in line that would be happy to take that spot and be a brand ambassador. it would not take long to clean up these issues if sponsors would do that. There are shooters like me out there who would be proud to represent our sponsors, give them an ROI, and help grow the sport. (this not a sales pitch for myself, just giving an example) You don't have to always have your jerseys on the top shooters, if the jerseys are worn by the best sportsman with great attitudes, that pays off for the sponsor. Your brand is still seen at the matches so the visual advertising is still there, but I would argue that an even better ROI is that people start to get the idea that company "X", really wants to grow the sport and help develop shooters and holds them to a high sportsmanship standard. If sponsors really stop and think about their ROI and what they want, there is a lot more to be had beyond just having your jersey standing in the picture getting the check...yes it's valuable but you want to sell more of your product and there is more to be had for you outside of that picture alone.

My $.02. Great topic, I'm just getting into this sport and hope to see it grow!
 
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Rob01

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I agree with the folks who it's theirs they can do as wish. That said if I had to eat 1099's for all the cash over $2500.00 I won in Trap why should PRS be any different? 2.5 is a run of the mill scope these days. Granted the more you can keep the gov out the better for all, but 1099s will not be the doom of the sport. Just wait until you have to support your claim you had 45K in expenses for a 50K 1099. 1099s will not end the sport but, they sure do not help I can tell you that.
On that we can agree. Wasn't really saying 1099s would kill the sport but if you do it then do it for everyone equally. Making it a pick and choose will do nothing but turn one group against another and cause more hate and discontent. We are all shooters and all need to look out for each other and not spend time screwing each other.
 

nfoley

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I just started shooting PRS about a year ago, and love it. I bought my first manners stock from a guy who had won it at a match. He told me he won it, and I thought "that sounds awesome - you can win cool stuff at these matches?" I agree that people should do what they want with their stuff.
As far as the assholes in the sport - I am not sure someone should be blackballed from the sport for writing an asshole letter. Jacob and Lisa ran an awesome match (I was there) - if you don't like it don't return. Trust me - there will be plenty others in line ready to take that spot. But I'm not sure I agree with tar and feathering this guy just cause he had an opinion others don't agree with.
As for the 'jersey' guys being assholes as a group - I sure have not seen that. The dozen or so shooters with jerseys I have spent time talking with have been the most friendly and helpful group you could ask for. I have only been to 3 big matches but I definitely have not seen any kind of attitudes from the sponsored shooters.
Just my .02 as a new PRS shooter.
 

Culpeper

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If you are supposed be getting a 1099 for making enough to get a 1099 then you should get a 1099. Or do the some of the po-pros cheat at everything they do in some form or fashion to be part of the beautiful people?
 
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Jimmy31593

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Yeah let's 1099 everyone and turn our hobby into another job. Next we will all have to save all of our receipts for travel, guns, components and anything else we can think of. Just to use as write offs for the 1099s that are coming. The last thing I need is to add a couple more hours to my tax preparation every year.

I've never won anything at a match. But I think a lot of people will agree with me when I say this is the stupidest idea ever.
 

Lowlight

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I should say, and originally I did not do a good job at saying it.

Sponsors have specifically said for years now they don't like seeing stuff for sale. But everyone gets it, and nobody is really saying THAT is the problem. That is just the part that detaches the shooter from the prize and that particular sponsor.

Shooters are are not doing a good job supporting the sponsors on a whole. A picture of two on your Facebook page before, during, or after a match is not enough. The example above with the motorcycle racing is right. A lot of companies in our industry don't understand what sponsoring means, and neither do the shooters. The shooters says, gee I want X, writes a note, says, hey I came in Y at these matches, I am shooting them again, can I promote X. The company they want to be included, gives it away, and both go off on their own way. They do just enough to say, look I am promoting, company picks it's head up, says thanks, end of story. There are exceptions, but few real agreements or standards in place.

I try to educate companies to insist on a list of duties, but for most, it's very lax. Neither side gets it

ultimately the the sale of the item is not the big problem, just a sympton of a different issue.
 

Rob01

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If you are supposed be getting a 1099 for making enough to get a 1099 then you should get a 1099. Or do the some of the po-pros cheat at everything they do in some form or fashion to be part of the beautiful people?
Again why do you assume it's just pros? What about those new guys who got those custom rifles off the table or all the ROs prize table drawings? Don't make assumptions to try and slam one group.

 

Culpeper

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Hey, I'm just sayin'. And there is a difference between engaging in a hobby and engaging in business. Running around with a team, travelling expenses paid, merchandise received, is no longer a hobby. Volunteering to be a ref is a hobby. Showing up on your own a couple times a year and getting a scope off a table is a gift. I realize it sounds stupid but it is not. As for petty shit that adds up to a 1099 I've got nothing to state other than it is the law. It is what it is. Just another aspect of growing sport.
 

Rob01

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Hey, I'm just sayin'. And there is a difference between engaging in a hobby and engaging in business. Running around with a team, travelling expenses paid, merchandise received, is no longer a hobby. Volunteering to be a ref is a hobby. Showing up on your own a couple times a year and getting a scope off a table is a gift. I realize it sounds stupid but it is not. As for petty shit that adds up to a 1099 I've got nothing to state other than it is the law. It is what it is. Just another aspect of growing sport.
But again you are assuming that all these "pros" are having traveling expenses and match fees etc paid for. It doesn't happen most of the times. I pay for my match fee, airline ticket, rental car, hotel, gas, food and any other cost to go to matches. It's a hobby. Very, very few people, not even just in this sport but shooting in general, get a full ride to make it a business. That is what I am trying to get across to people who see a jersey and think this guy does this for a living or is getting everything free. There is a total communications gap here.

I am a firefighter. That is my living. Shooting is my hobby. If shooting went away I can still live well and feed my family and pay my bills and I would just find something else to do with my time. If firefighting went away then so does my shooting hobby as I won't have any money. It's like class warfare here with everyone who doesn't have a jersey yelling at the people in jerseys thinking they are the 1%ers. It really amazes me that this sport has come to this.
 

Lowlight

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Amazing how here we can a civil discussion on this subject and we are addressing the highs and lows of our chosen sport, yet the place where this should be most important is busy screaming at the messenger and making silly (albeit some funny) Lowlight Memes,

they would rather circle the wagon, cover up the admittedly isolated, but growing incidents. Sad really...

The fact you guys are talking about both sides of the equation is the right response

An Editor's Note:

For those who disliked the tone of my first post on this, this one, I completely get it, but look at the response to this one vs the follow up. Nobody is saying a thing about my qualification post, aside from the guys who got it the first time and said, don't worry about it. But for the rest, this clearly demonstrates the effect I was going for worked, look at the results vs the other.

I have been trying to bring to light the sense of entitlement I have been seeing, and that sense of entitlement has nothing to do with the guys on a squad level while you are shooting the match. It's the before and after, it's the mentality that says, "I shot 3 PRS Matches a year, and because of that I deserve more than the next guy, whether that next guy is an RO or a casual competitor. During the match, on the line, in that 10 man squad, 99% of everyone is great. But once that last shot is fired, the attitudes change. You can see it during the alibi period when they line up to change their scores, or what they say to each other when nobody is looking.

The letter is proof positive this attitude is out there, and unless you nip it early it will only get worse. As many have noted, it's not like other disciplines in the shooting sports didn't go through this period in their history when competitors started taking it too seriously in the wrong way. The idea that if you are gonna treat it like a business then you should be subject to business rules. I don't like that but I get that on several levels. This is a hobby, this is like going out and playing golf, it's not meant to be business, if that if your goal, make it one.
 

JMGlasgow

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What a shit show that email is. Pussies couldn't even sign the letter.

My only experience with a big PRS match is being an RO at the Hide Cup 2015. I had a few competitors try to bully me into points, or giving them a hit because their buddy said it was a hit. I very succinctly told them that if they had a problem with my RO'ing ability, we could go talk to Frank right then and there. That ended the altercation, and the shooter and friends stopped pressing the issue. I don't like cheaters, or people who think they can game the system, or bully their way to a better finish. There were also shooters who after being warned during the stage COF meeting (I was an RO on A1), still showed up to the line with loaded firearms.

What I saw at the prize table was bullshit. What I saw during the "alibi" period was also bullshit. Anyone who knowingly gamed the system for points, or flat out cheated should be ashamed. It has also forever instilled in me the terrible nature of certain people who feel entitled because they're "sponsored".
 
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Culpeper

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Moving on, corps get a deduction for sponsoring and abuses at the other end will result in corps saying it is not worth the deduction. These certain participants can cause good shit to dry up. A code of ethics that is enforced could go a long way for corp sponsoring staying a going concern.
 

atomic41

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Shooters are are not doing a good job supporting the sponsors on a whole. A picture of two on your Facebook page before, during, or after a match is not enough. The example above with the motorcycle racing is right. A lot of companies in our industry don't understand what sponsoring means, and neither do the shooters. .
Thanks for picking up on my point, you get it. I think that if sponsors make a few changes, they can correct this course because it won't come from the shooters since they are the ones with the bad attitudes. (only talking about the problem children...not all shooters) If sponsors require more ROI from shooters, that will get the message across real quick and the sport will thrive. In racing, I dealt with many sponsors that had contracts ready to go stating what they expected from racers. The expectations were clear.



 
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More WTF is the same guys attacking me and spinning this story (entitlements) , are the same guys that defended the dick drawer and vilified the owner of the rifle for getting him DQ.

The fact they would rather circles the wagons and lash out at me, instead of asking who sent the anonymous letter to Jacob, and how to address the growing attitude of entitlement, and poor sportsmanship. We know it exists, and we know it's small, but growing, pretending that if it's not public, it should remain hidden only emboldens the problems. The attitude is, "these folks will get weeded out " but that is not the case and I don't think they can point to an instance where this happened on any level. Weeds don't die off unless addressed, left alone they thrive and corrupt the entire garden
 

mkollman74

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Interesting thread. Pretty well sums up much of why I quit shooting matches and had zero interest in the PRS when it came on the scene. I still shoot a very few local/regional PNW matches from time to time when I know who most of the attendees will be. There are also some great matches like the Karstetter that serve a purpose beyond just launching lead and catching up with friends (although those are both great reasons to attend a match).

I could keep writing about why, but several of you have already covered it - It's just not as fun as it once was... I hope Frank is right and that the future will be at the club level.
 

Rob01

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Yeah that dick drawing was way over the top and no way to defend it. Not knowing someone and messing with their gear is just wrong. I would be pissed if someone defaced my property. That shooter should have been kicked out of the PRS for the season. Not just a DQ. It goes with Frank's "picking the weeds" analogy.

The PRS wanted to be in charge and a governing body of the sport well now they have to do some governing and lead the effort to pick those weeds. Not say there is no problem. And it's not a pro vs am issue but an overall attitude with a growing sport and many more people coming in and bringing their own personalities. If you put some of these people in jerseys acting like dicks in a T shirt I would bet they would act the same way. Believe me cheating happens at matches with just a trophy and a drawn prize table if you give people the opportunity. Anyone who has been around long enough knows what i am talking about and it's not pros or ams but shooters personalities and values.
 
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I guess boiling it down, and admittedly I was broad in my characterization, is the fact, like Rob said nobody is leading.

My my problem with the Pros, is the fact they don't call each other out, and they do have a habit of defending bad behavior and /or their Team-Mates, or Buddies. It's part of the job, if you're that good, you don't need to argue that one extra point. I get it, scores are tight, but when you make a habit of chasing one point or two off the rifle, you open the door for abuse. Sure Range Officers make mistakes, let it go, help them after the fact not during. How long has the PRS spoke about a Range Officer certification / training program? I haven't seen it.

Weeds grow row unless you pick them, and just wagging your finger doesnt work.

Rob is right, they volunteered to be the governing body, they charge you to participate, at some point unpopular decisions have to be made. If you don't want to remove people from the field, at least tax them so it hurts.
 

OinCO again

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Thanks for starting the conversation Frank. I hope to see some aftermath of good, but am wildly pessimistic.

Is it the fear of a retaliatory libel suit that keeps problems with individuals cheating/bullying/whining etc. from being aired? I don't understand the aversion to a "clean up".


I am sure that for shooters that have seen the ugly side of their competition, beating those "snowflakes" at a match is more of a motivator than the prize table.








 

djarecke

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I'm new to this sport and have only shot one PRS match and several club matches, but I've not seen the attitudes displayed that you guys have. Our club has some of the best shooters in the country and these guys will go out of their way to help you shoot a stage better, to help fix a rifle, or just chat. Our pro and amateur shooters are just plain good guys - jersey or not.
 

AIAW

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These dumb fucks are now saying I wrote the letter just to bring attention to this site... seriously I wrote it lol
LOL. Are they e-mailing you claiming this or did they start some thread somewhere via a different channel?
 

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On Facebook,

they are claiming, "sources with good Google Fu" said I wrote both sides to bring attention to the site because it was failing, and that big players are grumbling and there will be consequences....

its all part of the circling of the wagons and the attempt to pretend nothing like was said could ever happen. In other words their story today is I made it up.
 

AIAW

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On Facebook,

they are claiming, "sources with good Google Fu" said I wrote both sides to bring attention to the site because it was failing, and that big players are grumbling and there will be consequences....

its all part of the circling of the wagons and the attempt to pretend nothing like was said could ever happen. In other words their story today is I made it up.
Fucking Facebook. I swear that shit is going to be the downfall of humanity. The absolute shit that gets passed around inside that shit-storm site is overwhelming!

Google Fu... The problem is honestly that you don't need them and they know that. I'd wager a bet that your domain gets more unique and especially un-unique hits than all of the sponsors sites, combined. Food for thought. I mean really, the "PRS" portion is really about advertisement. What isn't these days.

I'm not big into the comp scene or I would sign into my 8-year dormant FB account and speak up for you in some fashion. I'm pretty good about keeping my mouth shut about things I don't understand.
 

mkollman74

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On Facebook,

they are claiming, "sources with good Google Fu" said I wrote both sides to bring attention to the site because it was failing, and that big players are grumbling and there will be consequences....

its all part of the circling of the wagons and the attempt to pretend nothing like was said could ever happen. In other words their story today is I made it up.

Actually, this makes sense. I also read on FB that you personally advised the producers of Happy Days to have The Fonz "jump the shark" just so you could destroy the show by demonstrating that it had run its course . You are a wicked and vile creature...
 

SlagAxe

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On Facebook,

they are claiming, "sources with good Google Fu" said I wrote both sides to bring attention to the site because it was failing, and that big players are grumbling and there will be consequences....

its all part of the circling of the wagons and the attempt to pretend nothing like was said could ever happen. In other words their story today is I made it up.
That is getting a bit out of hand and I think the Facebook post is ill advised by bringing an unwanted scrutiny to PRS. They should erase all references to it. It says the sport is above self-examination. That is an insult to the great people who support it. Just reading this thread tells me that we, for the most part, can pull back the layers and still move forward in a positive way. I am proud to be part of such a group of people, though my part is very, very small. Re-reading Frank's post and reflecting on the Facebook post I am left with three takeaways:

1. The authors of the letter were anonymous. In other words, spoken by men too weak to stand tall and probably not really feeling like they had solid ground to stand on. If the whole group at least made themselves known to Jacob it would be different, but the group sent a letter via proxy instead. If you know anything about Jacob you know it's ridiculous that they felt the need to do that. Too bad they didn't just sit down and have a beer to talk it out. That would be a good lesson to have learned from all this.

2. The author ranked people in a pecking order that seems more like the Caddy Shack country club than a group of people brought together by a common interest.This sport is served, in large part, by a cottage industry of equipment manufacturers, gunsmiths, and hobbyists. Forget about the merits of selling the spoils for a minute. Before anyone even gets to choose a prize the author lays out a hierarchy that splits what is already a very small group of people in parts, some more deserving than others. To top that he monetizes an ROs relative worth. Shame on him.

3. To hang Frank out to dry, or try to, by making the ridiculous claim that he made it up... what kind of desperation is that??? If they thought it through I think they have to claim Jacob is in on it too. Absolutely laughable! No one has put himself out there more than Frank. No one. For an anonymous group of pecking hens to try to embarrass the guy who stands front and center, year after year, no matter the weather. I should be embarrassed for them but I am instead impressed by the stupidity of it.

I love this sport. Admittedly I really suck at it too. IMHO all that any of us are entitled to is the credit of our own performance.
 
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morganlamprecht

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1. is there a problem? yes, a fairly small one...i RO'd 2 matches in TX last year and had maybe 2-3 people each day (out of 150) try to bully/convince my spotters of hits...wasnt just the standard "was that a hit or miss?" ...it was more like "i know i hit it, i saw the blah blah blah..." ...all my stages had experienced shooters spotting on glass and even had 2 spotters most of the time...as long as the RO is assure of him/herself its usually a 1 minute convo and move on...u cant be wishy washy though

the obvious tell a small problem is there...at one of those matches an experienced (on the local level) shooter came up to me, and basically said (paraphrasing), "can i spot for you on your stage, because i dont really like conflict, and dont want to have to deal with SOME of these guys..." ...problem, jersey shooter or not

2. wearing a jersey means DICK today...i know handfuls of people who paid for their jersey with their own money and put their own logos of the gear they shoot on it...how do you know who's who from the outside looking in?

3. IMO (cause im a competitive SOB) if youre intimidated and scared to do something you want to try out because someone has a "jersey" or may be better than you...that says a whole lot more about you than it does about anyone else...

my first match ever was a Bushnell brawl...i had never shot anything other than prone or bench and had only shot past 200 yds a couple times prior...i had only owned a bolt gun other than a lightweight hunting rifle for about 6 months...i got STOMPED lol...if you really want to get better, GET BETTER...dont complain because everyone else is better than you...anyone who complains about that, to me...it falls on deaf ears, because 2 yrs later, i won the Brawl...im not hearing your excuses...dont act like you know it all, and if someone is better than you at something, ask for help...99/100 times theyll be more than willing to help you out anyway they can

4. i dont have any desire to wear a jersey because i dont like that silky crap lol
 
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Clownbuster

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While I can't speak for PRS, I've been at the executive level in business for 15 years, and this is a beautiful example of men's gifts and talents getting way out in front of their character.
Their gifts and talents got them in the room with mighty men (corporate sponsorship), and their character will get them kicked out. Just a matter of time.
'Flimsy' men don't last Frank. Having met you a few times, you are a good example of that law and that's why you're still around.
Sanford Grasseth
 
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I probably pushed too hard on the Jersey side of things, and I admit that up front, but I need to get people's attention as I been trying to address this for quite a while with no success. It seems sitting around and talking about after over beers is not the answer.

I am completely aware that not all guys in a Jersey are sponsored and many buy their own and start, rooting through the gun to add logos. That IS part of the problem. It's one thing to have a professional class for shooter who are actually sponsored when you start to create a need to fit in that say, "let me wear that too" many of them are dong it in hopes of getting notice because they perceive the sponsored guys are getting everything paid for. Why not..

Yes this is small and I stand by that 5% number, but 5% can soon become 10, or 25% ... it's best to address it sooner than later.

The views expressed in the letter to Jacob have been told to me personally but guys, which is why I went off, I have heard this before in person.

The fact this group, and they are small, as Graham noted, last year the PRS only had about 178 participate in the points race vs all the ones signed up for the Series can quickly spin out of control. They HAVE to be self reflective and make sure things run great. Ignoring the bugs in the system does not correct them.

This is why the Local Matches are gaining so much ground, the pressure and desire to steal a point or two is not gonna happen there.

As for the guys making this all about me, and twisting the story to deflect from the issue and make me the bad guy... fuck em. It does not effect me one bit. I am not participating in the PRS points race, we are hosting a PRS match this year at Rifles Only and how we handle things will be very clear up front. If the questions is separate prize tables, they may find we reward the Top 10 and change direction ... I have an idea already.

I can take the attack, which drives them just as crazy, the spin is comical and only makes them look bad. If they want to line up and whip out their "Rebel Dicks' for me to kiss, LOL have at it. But their numbers are not as strong as they claim them to be. You can go their site and see who has scores or more important enough scores to have qualified for anything . Signed up vs Stepped Up are two very different numbers
 
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morganlamprecht

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so frank, the real question about the prize table for the Hide Cup @ Rifles Only is......do i need to sign up to shoot it? or RO it?? ;)

im jk btw for anyone else reading this...im shooting it...
 

Lowlight

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Actually, this makes sense. I also read on FB that you personally advised the producers of Happy Days to have The Fonz "jump the shark" just so you could destroy the show by demonstrating that it had run its course . You are a wicked and vile creature...
I wanted Lasers on the Sharks when the Fonz jumped it.. but i was voted down, eventually my idear made it to the Austin Powers movies.

While I am responsible for the debacle with the Fonz, I also added in Pinky Tuscadero which was a win.

How about my handy work last night, I totally handed Warren Beatty the wrong envelope ... :) stirring the shit since the 70s
 

Clownbuster

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I probably pushed too hard on the Jersey side of things, and I admit that up front, but I need to get people's attention as I been trying to address this for quite a while with no success. It seems sitting around and talking about after over beers is not the answer.
Bullshit Frank. Anyone reading their weak letter saw the evidence of their true intended message by line 8. I never perceived your summary of the "Jersey boy" pukes was a case of ready-fire-aim thinking on your part. Pin-pointing poor behavior with truth from an individual who's an expert in their field is in good form.
Guys, if you can't handle being called out on your behavior by another, you missed a fundamental lesson by your father-figure somewhere. Nothing a bleeding split lip couldn't remedy...