Divisions - Breaking down the Obvious

Dthomas3523

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because your at a giant disadvantage shooting 308 compared to a 6 or 6.5 mm cartridge
Same with a 30-06, 30-30, .270......etc etc.

We don’t have classes for those and not enough LE/mil guys use their work rifle to justify keeping the class.

37 shooters registered for tac class PRS last year.
 

Dthomas3523

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Maybe its just me but anybody doing that much cheating to win a title in a hobby sport would defeat the purpose of competing in the first place. If there were 10s of thousands or more dollars on the line then of course you could expect such schemes. The stigma lumped onto a known cheater in a pond so small would ruin reputations permanently. As Frank mentioned the limitations wouldn't apply to the Open Division.
People literally go to jail and lose 100k/yr jobs stealing or taking bribes for pennies compared to the lifetime salary they just shit away.

People do dumb shit and cheat for little or no reason other than just to do it or be the “best.”

Logic doesn’t matter to those types.
 

Diver160651

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In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open

I would say 22LBS for Open and 18LBS for Limited, why because a Stock AI is close to 18LBS.

We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc, a weight limit in my mind would be without the scope, the scope is irrelevant to the situation.

It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands. 22lBS for a practical rifle sport is not limiting.

Open has to have guidelines as much as anything, rules matter. You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.

Remember you want to grow and add to the sport, in these cases perceptions matter, having no limits ruins the perception for a lot of people who want things defined up front.
I would not increase the “stock” or “production” weight limit, just because the “AI” is so heavy. They weigh as much as many of the guns people are bitching about and cost as much if not more than many customs.
 

DerrtyMac

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What about having an Open and Classic divisions?
Classics would be .308, .30-06, .284, and so on and so forth. Then open would be all the crazy wildcat things starting with all the 6.5 CM, 6 CM, and so on that have popped up from PRS/NRL shooting.
Yes you will have the gamers that push the envelope in their divisions but so what, it’s the nature of competition. To this you could also have the guys with SKS, M1A, older gun models that someone would like to test.
Of course as metioned none of this will matter if their isn’t a strong MD to RO commitment to set rules and standards. I do like the mention of staff shooting days but that may or may not work due to RO’s life being able to work around the extra day to shoot for standings.
Other than that I got nothing, there is definitely smarter more knowledgeable people who have commented about this but maybe my 2 cents could count towards something.
Thanks to all those who have helped move competitive shooting to where it is today!
 

sstacllc

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What does anyone think about possibly a lower round count per stage and per match for "limited class"?

A couple of the obstacles I have seen for getting fellow shooters into the sport are:
1. Ammo expense per match for them shooting their factory ammo is too much for them.
2. They have a very capable rifle/scope but their factory rifle is an internal box mag holding 4 or 5 rounds.

These problems may be impossible and too limiting to try to address, but I thought I would bring it up. I have taken a new shooters to the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton, NM and got them hooked on precision shooting. That match is appealing to new shooters partially because it is 60 rounds max, 6 rounds per stage, and longer time limits.
The Hornady Precision Hunter Steel Challenge and Nightforce ELR Steel CHallange matches are geared exactly that. As far as incorporating that into a PRS or NRL event would be logistically impossible.
 

sstacllc

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Looking at a better way to do "production/factory"
Factory Division rifles must not exceed a caliber of .30 cal or a velocity of 3,200 fps.
A Factory Division Rifle is a non-custom, stock rifle, manufactured/assembled by a single manufacturer, in a configuration as available from that manufacturer, where the action, chassis/stock and trigger must be manufactured by, or be proprietary to that manufacturer.
Proprietary for the ease of definition would be a part made for that company with the companies trade marked name. IE could be a part made by company X (chassis) for Company Ys Rifle but has to have company Y logo on the part as an identifiable feature
1.5lbs minimum Trigger Pull Weight.
Magazine may not contain more than 10 rounds at the start signal.

Allowed modifications:
The barrel may be replaced, as long as the replacement barrel is the same profile, caliber and length as available from the manufacturer.
The barrel may be re-crowned and / or threaded.
The action may be bedded to the chassis or stock.
A suppressor or muzzle brake may be fitted.
Minor detailing is permitted by hand, including:
Removal of factory burrs,
Polishing,
Painting,
Adding of grip or protective tape.
Prohibited Modifications:
No permanent alterations may be made to the rifle.
No permanent aftermarket parts may be added to, or swapped on, the rifle. (Permanent = anything that takes a tool to add or remove. A weight kit would be an example of this) Sling swivel would not because it is a potential safety feature in order to carry the rifle
No further gunsmith modifications or truing are permitted.
 
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Crabcore

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I think the basic class, whether you want to call it stock or production or whatever should have the simplest rules. I didn't put a ton of thought into this, but here goes:

15* pound max rifle, including scope and bipod.
no tripods allowed on any stage
6.5 creedmoore
factory ammo

*this was picked somewhat arbitrarily, but light enough to make it more different than the open guns.

I think this is far easier to explain to someone brand new looking to get into the sport.
 

sstacllc

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I think the basic class, whether you want to call it stock or production or whatever should have the simplest rules. I didn't put a ton of thought into this, but here goes:

15* pound max rifle, including scope and bipod.
no tripods allowed on any stage
6.5 creedmoore
factory ammo

*this was picked somewhat arbitrarily, but light enough to make it more different than the open guns.

I think this is far easier to explain to someone brand new looking to get into the sport.
We have this covered with a different class for the international rules.
 

Conrad

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I think Frank has this nailed already. Simple rules, simple to enforce and track.

He addressed the most important equalizers: match experience and rifle weight.

Maybe you can argue for some kind of power factor in limited to keep it more practical on cartridges.

I’m not even sure factory ammo is a requirement for limited. Not opposed just saying it seems Prime is as good as handloading (at least for this game) and I think more people will gravitate to it. I get helping out the industry too.

I always thought “production class” was a joke, particularly when basically custom rifles were getting turned out at 1999.99 or whatever it was. I don’t think that was ever the intent. The top 10 shooters could win with a heavy savage or Remington...heck, an NRA ELR record was just set with a Savage model 12.

Point being, focus on the physical attributes of the game that make a real difference in performance. After that if you want to run a $6000 gun in limited because you like the durability or perfect bolt lift, knock yourself out so long as it meets weight, etc

I think the clock and stage description will take care of the rest.

Open/Limited
“Pro”/Marksman

Roll with it.
 

Robo 248

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I think @lowlight ideas are valid and relatively easy to implement. But, I don't really see any real interest for those series' to make these types of changes. They are operating within their own small demographic and seem happy with it. It's their series and they can do what they want with it. But, I also think that is limiting and only continues to be the reason that demographic is such a small part of the shooting community. PRS and NRL are such small portions of the overall shooting industry, that what they do matters very little. If their comfortable with that then so be it.

Don't get me wrong, there is real innovation coming from that community.

But, I personally value field/ sniper matches much more. That's really where this all got started, right? Practical application of your rifle skills is much more valuable to me. And maybe that's why the LE/ Mil community have such a small showing at the previous aforementioned series. If my rifle is too heavy to practically use it in the field, then its not viable to LE/ Mil. If free recoiling a rifle doesn't allow for follow-through or viewing ones trace, its not viable to LE/ Mil. Many of the LE/ mil are not allowed to modify their weapons and hand-loaded ammo opens the door for liability. I could go on and on.

Production class with production rifles and factory ammo makes sense. Opens the door for beginning shooters and LE/ Mil.

Open Class for everyone else. You want to let your gun do the talking, or are competing at such a level that you need to glean that last little advantage of XYZ modification, then so be it.
 
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RoterJager

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@Robo 248 I agree with your first premise that the series don't have a reason to change. However I think you missed on the reason why they don't have a reason to change.

If there numbers are accurate, the PRS doubled their membership numbers from 2018 to 2019. 2020 Registration opens tonight so there are no numbers yet. So if their numbers truly doubled, why would they totally change the formula?
 
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Robo 248

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@Robo 248 I agree with your first premise that the series don't have a reason to change. However I think you missed on the reason why they don't have a reason to change.

If there numbers are accurate, the PRS doubled their membership numbers from 2018 to 2019. 2020 Registration opens tonight so there are no numbers yet. So if their numbers truly doubled, why would they totally change the formula?
Oh that point isn't lost on me at all. A reason to change? How about the AG cup? Tom's competition outclassed, outshined, and brought more funds to the table than the series finale.