Defensive Bullet Selection

Jan 28, 2011
2,600
312
83
GA
#51
This is the official sidearm baby batter guzzlers thread.

Linguistic souffle guzzling."Defensive" vs what??? Offensive? If you're drawing this distinction you are probably a fag, and functionally illiterate. Go beg Gloria Allred to sue whatever school you went to for a refund. They failed. The only thing you learned was how blow the janitorial staff.

Economic tapioca guzzling. If you are worried about the difference in cost between 9mm, 45 ACP... you probably don't value your life very much and should save everyone the grief of reading your scribbling here and just go back to sucking dick.

Physics cream pie guzzling. If you are consumed with gel tests you are probably worried about what sort of gel they use to make the pocket pussy stored in your murse. You will never get real pussy so go back to bagpiping, and let your boyfriend keep stuffing your ass with gel.

Geometric goo guzzling. If you think the difference in diameter between 9mm, 40... makes a difference it is probably because you are in a state of grief that the diameter of something else resembles a sewer pipe and your farts went from squeakers to silent and free flowing winds a long time ago. Your dad told you to suck dick instead of getting rectum-rammed. Listen to your dad.

Government issue salt water taffy guzzling. If you are consumed with whatever the 75th Ranger Regiment is using for anything you were/are one of those fags lurking outside the gate waiting to get an orifice stretched. At one time the 75th had K-Cars. The only thing you might pay attention to is which knee pads they use. Get a set and go back to choking on pole in comfort.

Cyber skeet guzzling. If you do not know what works best in your gun it is because you try to divine important things from the internet while limiting real world testing to things like how large of an object you can fit in your mouth. There is a difference. Oxygen deprivation keeps you from knowing what that is.
 
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FS1

Sergeant
Mar 24, 2014
1,716
1,135
113
Earth
#53
This whole thread sounds like a case of projectile envy.

Bullet size will be the least of your worries should you ever be confronted. Make your shots count i.e. Aim. Some of the folks that have this encounter will be too busy pissing themselves to aim. Some will be frozen in terror. Bullet size means nothing if you can't put it on target. It also means little when you can. So shoot what works for ya.
 
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#54
Say what you want about a tool to get to a rifle, but one thing I know from experience is if it all goes to shit I'm going with what I know works. I have all the get to rifle tools with in question in this thread an a few that are not, but if I need to go out the door or play tag in the house the FNX gets the call. Is there a better tool for a certain task, yes. Race gun chambering B/S is just that, but keep believing all the square range hype an bring it to the real world an see how it/you fare/s. I've never shot anyone with a 45 acp that wanted/needed more. I don't believe any gun rag shit or those who have never been down range, when they talk like experts. I do believe my eyes an what I've seen/experienced over my life. You trust your life an those of your friends/ family to what you believe will work for you, I'll trust mine to what I know works when push comes to shove.
 

HoustonB77

Online Training Member
Jan 28, 2014
458
68
28
Nixon TX
#55
45 is dead and obsolete, there is literally no reason to carry one. Moder bullets have made it so. 9mm is cheaper, shoots flatter, has less recoil, faster follow up shots, greater capacity , requires a smaller footprint gun, is easier/faster/cheaper to train to standard and has very similar performance on target round for round. The only advantage the 40 and 45 HAD was performance in laminated and auto glass, which has been nullified with modern bonded rounds. n

People are also getting their dicks chopped off and listen to Adelle, It doesn't mean they are good decision makers. The gun community has no shortage of ignorant members. If .45 had any appreciable advantage, the SMU's would use it, PD's other than those run by FUDDS would use it, and switched on Trainers would use it. Virtually every other military in the world has gone to the 9mm as a service pistol round.

I know it may be hard to hear, but you and those who carry .45 are actually handicapping yourselves. Besides the fact that friends don't let friends own anything from SA much less the HS2000...erm XD GRIPZONE, the G26 is a superior handgun in every way shape and form.

Science has already settled the issue, get with the times.
Think whatever you want. And I'm not totally against 9mm. I actually have and carry 2 9mm glocks. As far as the 26 being superior to the Springfield. I have never had my mod 2 jam. Can't say that for my Sig 320c, Glock 43, or Glock 26. I have also had much better luck hunting with 45s over any of my 9mms.
Carry whatever tickles your pickle but I would knock people that carry 45s. They get the job done and put a much bigger whole in the target. Bigger holes lead to more leakage.
 

Veer_G

The Cunning Linguist
Jun 15, 2008
7,317
3,313
113
SEPA
#59
This is the official sidearm baby batter guzzlers thread.

Linguistic souffle guzzling."Defensive" vs what??? Offensive? If you're drawing this distinction you are probably a fag, and functionally illiterate. Go beg Gloria Allred to sue whatever school you went to for a refund. They failed. The only thing you learned was how blow the janitorial staff.

Economic tapioca guzzling. If you are worried about the difference in cost between 9mm, 45 ACP... and make your choice based on this, you probably don't value your life very much and should save everyone the grief of reading your scribbling here and just go back to sucking dick.

Physics cream pie guzzling. If you are consumed with gel tests you are probably worried about what sort of gel they use to make the pocket pussy you keep in your murse. You will never get real pussy so go back to bagpiping, and let your boyfriend keep stuffing your ass with gel.

Geometric goo guzzling. If you think the difference in diameter between 9mm, 40... makes a difference it is probably because you are in a state of grief that the diameter of something else resembles a sewer pipe and your farts went from squeakers to silent and free flowing winds a long time ago. Your dad told you to suck dick instead of getting rectum-rammed. Listen to your dad.

Government issue salt water taffy guzzling. If you are consumed with whatever the 75th Ranger Regiment is using for anything you were/are probably one of those fags hanging somewhere outside the gate waiting to get some orifice stretched. At one time the 75th had K-Cars. The only thing you might pay attention to is what sort of knee pads they use. You should definitely get a set of these and then go back to choking on pole in comfort.

Cyber skeet guzzling. If you do not know what works best in your gun it is because you try to divine important things from the internet while limiting real world testing to things like how large of an object you can fit in your mouth. There is a difference. Oxygen deprivation keeps you from knowing what that is.
Decidedly prolix, old sport, but entirely encyclopedic.
 

Rthur

Philomath
Apr 16, 2010
5,959
1,888
113
49
Divernon, Illinios
#63
This is the official sidearm baby batter guzzlers thread.

Linguistic souffle guzzling."Defensive" vs what??? Offensive? If you're drawing this distinction you are probably a fag, and functionally illiterate. Go beg Gloria Allred to sue whatever school you went to for a refund. They failed. The only thing you learned was how blow the janitorial staff.

Economic tapioca guzzling. If you are worried about the difference in cost between 9mm, 45 ACP... and make your choice based on this, you probably don't value your life very much and should save everyone the grief of reading your scribbling here and just go back to sucking dick.

Physics cream pie guzzling. If you are consumed with gel tests you are probably worried about what sort of gel they use to make the pocket pussy you keep in your murse. You will never get real pussy so go back to bagpiping, and let your boyfriend keep stuffing your ass with gel.

Geometric goo guzzling. If you think the difference in diameter between 9mm, 40... makes a difference it is probably because you are in a state of grief that the diameter of something else resembles a sewer pipe and your farts went from squeakers to silent and free flowing winds a long time ago. Your dad told you to suck dick instead of getting rectum-rammed. Listen to your dad.

Government issue salt water taffy guzzling. If you are consumed with whatever the 75th Ranger Regiment is using for anything you were/are one of those fags lurking outside the gate waiting to get an orifice stretched. At one time the 75th had K-Cars. The only thing you might pay attention to is which knee pads they use. Get a set and go back to choking on pole in comfort.

Cyber skeet guzzling. If you do not know what works best in your gun it is because you try to divine important things from the internet while limiting real world testing to things like how large of an object you can fit in your mouth. There is a difference. Oxygen deprivation keeps you from knowing what that is.
MTT, it seems you're candy coating your position.
Turn it up to 11 and give them some insight. Lolz

R
 
Jan 11, 2006
3,069
633
113
Florida
#65
The Ranger Regt and the 3 (5 technically) SMU's are the biggest gunfighers in the world and you want to guess what they carry. The organizations who have the highest probability and likelihood of using a pistol in anger use what round?

The .45 is dead. You just haven't gotten the message yet.
That you, Cobracutter?
 
Mar 23, 2010
449
65
28
North Carolina
#66
Everything you can carry concealed everyday will suck in the terminal performance department.

Therefore, shot placement becomes the key factor. Not only do we need to acquire the skills to get the bullets where we want them to go but also the knowledge of human anatomy and physiology to determine where these bullets yield the desired result.

Aiming center of mass is IMO a waste of time and bullets. High thoracic is still insufficient against someone wearing a vest (kevlar or explosive) or with his finger on a gun pointing straight at you at close range. Now think about defeating threats that are not standing "square"...

Anyone who realistically looks at handgun "stopping power" will worry less about what caliber/bullet and more about where these bullets need to go and how to get them there reliably and quickly under stress.

(Full disclosure: I carry .357Sig because of its performance against barriers not because I think it will rip a threat in half. I have many three dimensional targets distributed on our wooded property and shoot them several times weekly when I go for a walk. Switched to inanimate targets after the squirrels nearly became extinct. Practice ammo has same power factor than carry ammo just with cheaper Montana Gold match JHPs. Carry ammo is either Buffalo Bore, Winchester, or Sig - it does not really matter as explained above. Only HITS IN THE RIGHT PLACE count. And yes, movement and use of cover are important to buy you the time needed to accomplish this.)
 
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steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,290
253
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#68
While we're near the subject what does anybody think about cartridges like 357Sig or 400 Corbon for self defense and stopping power? Speed...the example that sticks in my head and have witnessed most often is 22lr vs 22 mag in which 22 mag is way more destructive on varmints. The extra speed of 22 mag with the same weight hollow point bullet scatters a small critters body parts. I know I'd rather be shot with a 22lr if I had the choice. So in this comparison let's say the 22lr is going 1200 fps and the 22 mag is at 1950 fps, both with 40gr hollow points. Then carrying forward how speed comes into play with a centerfire pistol cartridge.

Also lets try keeping any cartridge size in a pistol that can be carried and listing the pro's and con's of.

Well it could be an interesting discussion anyway, right???
 

Primus

Gun Snob
Feb 13, 2017
389
95
28
Vancouver, WA
#70
Think whatever you want. And I'm not totally against 9mm. I actually have and carry 2 9mm glocks. As far as the 26 being superior to the Springfield. I have never had my mod 2 jam. Can't say that for my Sig 320c, Glock 43, or Glock 26. I have also had much better luck hunting with 45s over any of my 9mms.
Carry whatever tickles your pickle but I would knock people that carry 45s. They get the job done and put a much bigger whole in the target. Bigger holes lead to more leakage.
anecdotal experience
 
Nov 10, 2010
2,773
1,061
113
UT
#71
Smaller and faster is preferable to bigger and slower all things being equal.

Hence the effectiveness of the AR and 9mm service pistol
Man you are full of all kinds of stupid. So you say it is better to get hit by a locomotive doing 30mph (big and slow) vs a ray of sunlight (small and fucking fast) at 669,600,000 mph.
For your information light does in fact have mass. Einstein proved it and the earth weighs 8lbs more everyday due to the mass of sunlight hitting the earth.

Any super duper bullet design they do to 9mm bullets can easily be done to any other bullet. If 9mm is 10x better than 30 years ago so is the .45.

It is just fucking stupid to think the 9mm is somehow a magical caliber.

I carry all of them, 5.7x28, 9, 40, 45. Good bullet in a vital spot is the key.

The advantage to the 9 is capacity capacity capacity. Any large capacity 45 is just big and there is no doubt about that.
 
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Mar 23, 2010
449
65
28
North Carolina
#72
While we're near the subject what does anybody think about cartridges like 357Sig or 400 Corbon for self defense and stopping power? Speed...the example that sticks in my head and have witnessed most often is 22lr vs 22 mag in which 22 mag is way more destructive on varmints. The extra speed of 22 mag with the same weight hollow point bullet scatters a small critters body parts. I know I'd rather be shot with a 22lr if I had the choice. So in this comparison let's say the 22lr is going 1200 fps and the 22 mag is at 1950 fps, both with 40gr hollow points. Then carrying forward how speed comes into play with a centerfire pistol cartridge.

Also lets try keeping any cartridge size in a pistol that can be carried and listing the pro's and con's of.

Well it could be an interesting discussion anyway, right???
Even with the .357Sig, which I love and carry, you are still not getting enough speed to see hydrodynamic shock devastation like from a rifle. If you would reduce bullet weight to get more speed you will sacrifice penetration depth. Bigger case and more powder will make the gun much more painful and slower to shoot unless you make the gun bigger.

I found the .357Sig to be an excellent compromise between accuracy, downrange energy, recoil, and ammo capacity for my needs. But a handgun is a handgun and the only way to get guaranteed, instant incapacitation in via a CNS hit, in which case the caliber is irrelevant.

I carry the .357Sig to reliably get to the target not because it performs some Hollywood magic on the target. That being said, the deer I shot with that round were either DRT or died within 20 yards. (I hunt on our own land so EDC also applies to four legged critters. That's was the initial motivation to go from 9mm to .357Sig).

On the downside, it took about 500 rounds to learn shooting the .357Sig from a compact gun with splits coming close to my previous 9mm times. On the plus side, a 9mm long slide just making power factor now feels like shooting a .22LR.
 
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Primus

Gun Snob
Feb 13, 2017
389
95
28
Vancouver, WA
#73
In this thread we learn who falls for hype marketing (.357 sig, any XD products, sig post west germany is garbage as well)

Yall are talking about solutions looking for a problem. Complete and utter waste of money and time.

Then we hear about how many problems they have with their Glocks despite is being the most tested and proven handgun in the history of the planet. Hard to take some of you serious sometime.
 
Nov 10, 2010
2,773
1,061
113
UT
#74
Uh, he might have you there. Sorry.
I can not stand glock triggers. My first XD (first year springfield put their name on it) is past the 5000 rnd mark never an issue with it.

I have never really followed the crowd though. Got a Canik FSx 6 weeks ago, hit the 1500 rnd mark last weekend, it is pretty damn nice.
 
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Likes: Alphatreedog

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,290
253
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#76
Even with the .357Sig, which I love and carry, you are still not getting enough speed to see hydrodynamic shock devastation like from a rifle. If you would reduce bullet weight to get more speed you will sacrifice penetration depth. Bigger case and more powder will make the gun much more painful and slower to shoot unless you make the gun bigger.

I found the .357Sig to be an excellent compromise between accuracy, downrange energy, recoil, and ammo capacity for my needs. But a handgun is a handgun and the only way to get guaranteed, instant incapacitation in via a CNS hit, where the caliber is irrelevant.

I carry the .357Sig to reliably get to the target not because it performs some Hollywood magic on the target. That being said, the deer I shot with that round were either DRT or died within 20 yards.

On the downside, it took about 500 rounds to learn shooting the .357Sig from a compact gun with splits coming close to my previous 9mm times. On the plus side, the 9mm long slide now feels like a .22
Okay, I get your point.

So let's take it a step farther and put 9x25 Dillon into the equation, a hardy 115er at 1800 fps or 90's at 2100 fps. That's got to be getting pretty destructive and nearly rifle speeds.
 
Mar 23, 2010
449
65
28
North Carolina
#77
Okay, I get your point.

So let's take it a step farther and put 9x25 Dillon into the equation, a hardy 115er at 1800 fps or 90's at 2100 fps. That's got to be getting pretty destructive and nearly rifle speeds.
I do not think that current 90 grain bullets would penetrate deeply enough but looking at the bullet improvements over the last decade, someone may crack that code.
 
Nov 10, 2010
2,773
1,061
113
UT
#78
Then we hear about how many problems they have with their Glocks despite is being the most tested and proven handgun in the history of the planet. Hard to take some of you serious sometime.
Alvin York would probably disagree with you.

I understand police use glocks everyday, but exactly what war battles has the glock been in? Since the 1911 is about 70 years older i would think it is the most "proven" design.

How many master or grandmaster competition shooters use glock. Most (if not all) use a double stack 1911 design (2011 designation).

Glock is a gun that can be made cheap and go bang everytime but it is far from superior in many many ways.
 

W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Oct 1, 2005
1,840
1,256
113
Dallas, TX
#79
It's too much fun these days getting the people that worship the 9mm rounds as the best most modern thing ever all wound up.

All things being equal the ONLY advantages that 9mm has are:

More capacity in the same frame / magazine
Less weight for carrying
Smaller gun frames possible
Less recoil
Usually cheaper
Widely available

People with the serious 9mm religion always go on about "with modern bullets" & then compare their latest & greatest 9mm round vs a 100 year old .45 ACP loading. Pretty much why the statement goes "There are lies, Damn lies & Statistics".

The size of the hole / impact area does make a difference because you can't always count on your super bullet expanding perfectly & even if it does, starting out bigger still lets you end bigger.

Barrier penetration is not actually that good with 9mm, Assuming the same bullets, all loaded to maximum possible velocities for the case, 9mm would be at the bottom, of the pile, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 10mm, .45 ACP, .45 Super all beat it.

For some applications, capacity is king (assuming you don't live an a handicapped state), for other applications maximum stoppage energy delivered per shot is king.

Some people do much better with less recoil & can get more shots on target or move between more targets quicker with a lower recoil round, but that is to do with the shooter, not the actual bullet efficiency.
 

Primus

Gun Snob
Feb 13, 2017
389
95
28
Vancouver, WA
#80
Alvin York would probably disagree with you.

I understand police use glocks everyday, but exactly what war battles has the glock been in? Since the 1911 is about 70 years older i would think it is the most "proven" design.

How many master or grandmaster competition shooters use glock. Most (if not all) use a double stack 1911 design (2011 designation).

Glock is a gun that can be made cheap and go bang everytime but it is far from superior in many many ways.
Every element of socom plus just about all our partner nation's use Glocks as a primary sidearm. You can also throw in IP, IA, ANA, ANP but the fact is it's the most proven combat sidearm on the planet.

Master class shooters with tens of thousands of dollars of training with the best trainers money can buy plus and unlimited ammo budget.....and the tip of the spear carries 9mm Glocks. You think JSOC or the ranger bats would carry them if they were not the best choice? They could buy anything they want but roll with the 9mm Glock why?

Price has little to nothing to do with it. Springfield and Smith & Wesson are even cheaper, if price mattered they would roll with them ( or the POS 320 DoD just adopted). Or they would just use the m9 which they get for free and doesn't come out of their O&M budget.
 

Ledzep

Chancellor
Jun 9, 2009
1,354
177
63
Black Hills
#83
Oh, wow! This developed nicely... :ROFLMAO:

For anyone that missed it between the lines, my first post was satire. I generally look at the low velocity pistol caliber debate as making mountains out of mole-hills. I understand getting the most bang for what you're limited to in a carry piece, which is why I carry JHP, not FMJ... That said the terminal effectiveness of ALL low velocity (9mm, 10mm, .40, .45 etc...) handgun rounds is garbage compared to rifles. Put another way, if instead of comparing 9mm directly to .40, .45, whatever... you compared all low-velocity pistol calibers to a 45gr .223 JHP @ 3300fps or a 12ga 00 buck, you'd see the difference between them is not so big... Certainly not worth waving your E-penis around. Another way of looking at it... Which carry pistol would you use to put down 150-300lb large game (call it a mule deer)?

Oh yeah, you (typically) wouldn't because the effectiveness isn't there. Oddly enough, putting it into the perspective of using it to hunt big game, the same fundamental principles of big game hunting reappear, because killing is killing. Hitting critical organs and/or CNS remains king over caliber selection. So carry what you shoot well, and plan on more than 1 hit being necessary regardless of the atomic whiz bang bullet you're shooting.
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,290
253
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#85
I do not think that current 90 grain bullets would penetrate deeply enough but looking at the bullet improvements over the last decade, someone may crack that code.
Maybe so???

Well, so far for me as far as impressive, was a 135 grainer in 40 cal at 1350 fps.

I was just making conversation on the other cartridges mentioned.
 
Jan 11, 2006
3,069
633
113
Florida
#86
Oh, wow! This developed nicely... :ROFLMAO:

So carry what you shoot well, and plan on more than 1 hit being necessary regardless of the atomic whiz bang bullet you're shooting.
So, you choose logic over the opinions of internet experts and what government agencies buy (based on, at least in part, budget)?
 

Primus

Gun Snob
Feb 13, 2017
389
95
28
Vancouver, WA
#87
If you want to know about weapons and tactics, perhaps listening those those who's profession is rooted in those disciplines would be wise.

If you want advice on the best T times then ask someone in the Air Force.
 
Feb 15, 2017
1,566
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#89
.45 has a proven track record in stoppage . Been around longer and stopped more aggressors . Gelatin aint tryin to kill you just rape you . Ask Bill Cosby .
Indoor range I shoot at used to have once a month fun shoots . Combination
IDPA and USPSA even steel . One night they had a dueling tree set up for one of the stages . I stepped up to shoot the stage and every round hit but the tree would shake so violently that the next plate would move . I had to wait for the next plate to drop back so I could shoot it . When I finished the stage a couple guys I had buddie up with asked "What the fuck are you shooting ?" 230gn. .45 ACP . Go figure .
Everyone else was plinkin wit their 9s . It was cute , really .
 
Feb 13, 2017
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40
28
#90
Well, hasn't this has turned into a frisky caliber thread.

The original recommendation for selection of the 1911 .45 caliber pistol for the Army is a fascinating tale.

The Thompson-LaGarde Report of 1904 to General William Crozier details the incredible ballistic studies undertaken on human cadavers in New York and Philadelphia hospitals as well as live cattle in the Chicago stockyards. For a variety of reasons, such studies could never be undertaken in the U.S. today.

The Thompson-LaGarde Tests were a series of tests conducted in 1904 to determine which caliber should be used in new military handguns. At the turn of the 20th century, the U.S. Army's fighting men had considerable difficulty stopping the drug-laced Moro warriors in the Philippines, and other combatants, with the .38 Long Colt, and the Army began to consider the problem. The task was assigned to Colonel John T. Thompson of the Infantry, and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps.

It has been opined regarding the Thompson-LaGarde Report: “It was based on the assumption that the momentum of hanging bodies of various weights could somehow be correlated and measured, and that it actually meant something with regard to stopping power. What it actually did was extrapolate questionable data from questionable tests.”

I have annotated that Report here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r0zxyozbnchax1i/Thompson-LaGarde Report 1904 Sanitized 3A.pdf?dl=0
 
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