Deciding on a robust AR10

TacticalDillhole

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MWS is awesome.

My only issue with it is losing the "plug and play" feature of being an AR.

Sure barrel changes/maintenance are as easy as can be as long as you have the proprietary MWS extension.

So you are limited to LMT barrels - which tend to be spendy - or scrapping a barrel and having one of the few smiths that do it fit your choice of barrel with the MWS extension.

My 16 inch CL shoots fine but I want to someday fit a premium barrel and it wont be an easy change such as I could do on my own with a DPMS pattern rifle.
The biggest issue with most piston guns is the proprietary parts.
 

pmclaine

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The biggest issue with most piston guns is the proprietary parts.

Mine is DI but still that heavy collar for the barrel fitment into the receiver is the proprietary part.

My 16 inch CL shoots great for a service rifle spec barrel.

Thing is though I will likely never wear it out and get to see if a Kreiger shoots better.

I do love the LMT website in that just about any small part/spare can be clicked in to your cart and shipped to you.

Its a great company in my dealings with them.
 

pmclaine

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PS - Whatever you do dont buy a S&W .308 because that barrel connection (DI) is proprietary and they wont sell a spare barrel.

The rifle is junk when the barrel is shot out.
 

everready073

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Neither the MWS nor the SR-25 will have adjustable blocks. The difference is the MWS is over gassed. Easy fix just buy a longer barrel and cut it back. The SR-25 will be set up to run suppressed and unsuppressed with their suppressors, which are designed for low backpressure.
Black River Tactical is coming out with a reduced port gas tube shortly that should make the MWS much more pleasant to shoot suppressed
 
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pmclaine

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My job is switching to piston 5.56 ARs - Sig Sauers, MCX I think is the model.

Guy was cleaning his the other day and complaining how dirty it was.

I thought the whole attraction of piston was that it doesnt shit where it eats!

I dont understand the attraction of piston beyond the thought it was cleaner and cooler running at the bolt.

Personally my thought is that a .308 AR has enough moving mass just in bolt alone. Ill pass on the extra inertia of a piston and rod adding to that cluster of moving parts.

Make mine DI please.
 
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CavScout85

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My job is switching to piston 5.56 ARs - Sig Sauers, MCX I think is the model.

Guy was cleaning his the other day and complaining how dirty it was.

I thought the whole attraction of piston was that it doesnt shit where it eats!

I dont understand the attraction of piston beyond the thought it was cleaner and cooler running at the bolt.

Personally my thought is that a .308 AR has enough moving mass just in bolt alone. Ill pass on the extra inertia of a piston and rod adding to that cluster of moving parts.

Make mine DI please.

So for me, I have a perceived, maybe incorrect, idea that piston is more reliable.

One thing I can say unequivocally is they are cleaner. I have a piston and DI barrel for my MRP. 100 rounds through the DI and it is dirty as hell. 100 with the piston and I would still pull the bolt and lick it, its that clean. :)
 

rob.sfo

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I have a 308 piston AR that's ~7.5lbs (without glass). POF Revolution. AR15 chambered in 308. I've used it in 3gun matches and taken it hunting. I love it.

There are 308 and 6.5cm versions, and they also make it in piston and DI (the DI version is in the 6.something pound weight range). They also make a pistol version. I have the original 16" piston version, Someday I might add a 20" 6.5cm upper for it as well.

It's definitely proprietary if that's a dealbreaker though.

 
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bigjake83

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The LMT MWS SlickSide with the standard CL16" .308 barrel is selling for $2150 brand new! And the "Sniper Version" with the 20" SS Barrel and adjustable stock is $2360.

If you want something Robust yet manageable with weight look at the seekins SP-10. The Seekins SP10 has a honest 18" match grade, full Ambi controls, quality trigger and adjustable gas all right out of the box.

If you want to best that's JP

LaRue is dying a slow and painful death... Their products offer nothing over the competition, because Mark had such success with the original OBR his products still have a decent fan boy following. He shit the bed when he made the decision to start making his own barrels now his platforms are lucky to hold moa.
 
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nn8734

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What year did Larue start making their own barrels for the OBRs? Was it from day one or did they transition to in-house tubes at some point afterward?
 

bigjake83

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What year did Larue start making their own barrels for the OBRs? Was it from day one or did they transition to in-house tubes at some point afterward?
It was back around 2012 I think, the OBR with the LW Barrel was a legit .5-.75 MOA rifle.

Now it's just smoke and mirrors!! To put it into context for you look at it this way.. A LaRue .308 ultimate upper kit which has everything in it with the exception of the stripped lower is $1,200, and Larue openly States the upper kits has a lot of the same parts including the barrels, BCG as the obr and the tTobr and the upper and handguard are almost identical to the PredatAR So basically you're getting charged $2,300 for a stripped lower.
 
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nn8734

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It was back around 2012 I think, the OBR with the LW Barrel was a legit .5-.75 MOA rifle.

Now it's just smoke and mirrors!! To put it into context for you look at it this way.. A LaRue .308 ultimate upper kit which has everything in it with the exception of the stripped lower is $1,200, and Larue openly States the upper kits has a lot of the same parts including the barrels, BCG as the obr and the tTobr and the upper and handguard are almost identical to the PredatAR So basically you're getting charged $2,300 for a stripped lower.
Great info, thank you....if I ever buy one I’ll have to look for an older serial (at least pre-2012) in good shape...I haven’t been following OBR developments but had been kicking around the idea of grabbing one...
 

ClangClang

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KAC rifles are no fun when trying to self serve. Had to spend prob over 1k over the years buying all the tooling to work on mine myself.
What have you had to buy? All the KAC specific tools I can think of in sum total dont come anywhere close to $1k.

URX2/3 wrench $150
URX4 wrench $50
Gas block castle nut tool from Cole $70
URX4 QD cup tool from Cole $30 (IIRC)
Knight Stick $85

That's all you need (beyond standard armorers tools) to completely tear down or reassemble an SR15 or SR25 of pretty much any generation produced within the past 15 ish years.

What am I missing?
 

ClangClang

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All this discussion of "requires proprietary parts" as a negative attribute is kind of silly, especially when discussing AR10 platforms, cause everything is "proprietary" due to different standards and tolerances. The odds of being able to walk into your LGS and buy replacement components off the shelf is practically nil.
 

RyanScott

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So for me, I have a perceived, maybe incorrect, idea that piston is more reliable.

One thing I can say unequivocally is they are cleaner. I have a piston and DI barrel for my MRP. 100 rounds through the DI and it is dirty as hell. 100 with the piston and I would still pull the bolt and lick it, its that clean. :)
I’m not really a gun cleaner so I don’t get the attraction. 5.56 ARs don’t really need to be cleaned just kept wet. 7.62 is slightly pickier but still. And if you suppress it most piston guns are wildly overpassed and suck that crap right back down the bore.
The LMT MWS SlickSide with the standard CL16" .308 barrel is selling for $2150 brand new! And the "Sniper Version" with the 20" SS Barrel and adjustable stock is $2360.

If you want something Robust yet manageable with weight look at the seekins SP-10. The Seekins SP10 has a honest 18" match grade, full Ambi controls, quality trigger and adjustable gas all right out of the box.
Rifle gear has a basic MLOK LMT Defender for $1799 right now.

is like to see the Seekins bolt, but I hear good things. Interesting people bought some recently. That’s a strong vote of confidence from longtime KAC users.
 

nn8734

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What have you had to buy? All the KAC specific tools I can think of in sum total dont come anywhere close to $1k.

URX2/3 wrench $150
URX4 wrench $50
Gas block castle nut tool from Cole $70
URX4 QD cup tool from Cole $30 (IIRC)
Knight Stick $85

That's all you need (beyond standard armorers tools) to completely tear down or reassemble an SR15 or SR25 of pretty much any generation produced within the past 15 ish years.

What am I missing?
Have the above (paid 200 plus shipping at the time for the urx 2/3) , URX wrench, SR15/25 barrel extension action wrench (aka Knights stick?), barrel nut wrench....

That said, You’re right - total knights specific tools don’t come close to a grand...more like ~500-600 or so...I purchased them all at regular retail prices over the last several years.

Shouldn’t have over exaggerated; thanks for pointing it out.
 
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CavScout85

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I’m not really a gun cleaner so I don’t get the attraction. 5.56 ARs don’t really need to be cleaned just kept wet. 7.62 is slightly pickier but still.
Hmmm, wish you were around to tell my drills that, could have saved me a lot of heartache.
 

Jsz762

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A little more than the budget, but the HK mr762a1 might be something to look at as well.
 

hinzerd

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I am really enjoying my 18" Aero 308. The price was right, reliability has been 100%, and the accuracy is there (consistent sub MOA with quality match ammo, 1.5ish with the bulk hornady gunner 155gr.
 

RyanScott

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I hadn’t realized you were using “my DI told me” as an appeal to authority. That’s embarrassing.
 

CavScout85

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I hadn’t realized you were using “my DI told me” as an appeal to authority. That’s embarrassing.
I wasn't. I was really wishing you had been there to tell them, and tell all my NCO's when I was an E nothing, and been there to tell me when I was the NCO telling the E nothings to clean their weapons. The lost hours of my life, and theirs, are just staggering. We could probably finance a new main battle tank, or carrier class, or something with the saved labor.

🙄
 
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RyanScott

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Lots of errors built into the institutional memory. Hopefully some of them will be worked out over this generation.
 

sea2summit

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Sounds good.
Sorry I’m late. I made a huge error in the test...can’t get the barrel off without taking the suppressor off. Third assembly I tried getting the can on three times and it had some slop, I never should have let it go but was too lazy to clean it right then...and generally I’m not a good shot so might not even be the can. Rifle is sighted in for 150m with a SF warden for hunting season so expected to shoot high-ish with a can. Groups at 100y.

Range.
F4D82AC7-1782-42C8-80F5-94DB9093D29B.jpeg

Rifle set up as shot, note I broke out factory ammo for this.
86D7C868-6ABA-4754-AF03-617A680511D4.jpeg

Disassembly between shot 3&4, others to the same level.
B9A17AAD-A9E8-4FA6-A780-487FBF882777.jpeg

Not happy with that third round on the disassembled side but too cheap to repeat it for free;-)
8ADC31BE-DCCF-4DD3-9C00-D778EDF87DC6.jpeg
 

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deersniper

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I would pick something in 6.5 Creedmoor.

And if you aren’t going to run clip on night vision or thermal I would take a look at the scar 20.

Would also look at getting something built up on the G2 receivers.
 

LeadZeke

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The F4 Defense SF10 is the "small frame" AR10 (like the DPMS G2) done right. I'd recommend checking it out.
 

Danattherock

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It won't be cheap, but if you want one of the best gas guns made, get in touch with Scott Milkovich at Specialized Dynamics.

I shot in a PRS gas gun match with him 2 years ago at peacemaker and soon after had him build me a 6.5 Grendel. It's the most accurate gas gun I've ever shot.

IMG_20180309_130925389_HDR.jpg
 

LeadZeke

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With a SUB 8lb rifle and a 1/2 MOA Accuracy guarantee... That's pretty fucking Ballzy

View attachment 7185570

Their nighthawk is 5.8lbs in .308 which is crazy. The 3/4moa is 5 shot I believe, since they use Proof barrels and Craddock Precision Bartlein's exclusively it is pretty easy for them to make that guarantee. Best part is it comes with the Superlative Arms adjustable gas block and a flat wire recoil spring from the factory on top of the great barrel.
 

sea2summit

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Their nighthawk is 5.8lbs in .308 which is crazy. The 3/4moa is 5 shot I believe, since they use Proof barrels and Craddock Precision Bartlein's exclusively it is pretty easy for them to make that guarantee. Best part is it comes with the Superlative Arms adjustable gas block and a flat wire recoil spring from the factory on top of the great barrel.
6.5x47 in a gas gun? New one on me.
Has anyone shot one or seen a real review? Site says 1/2 MOA guaranteed...I somehow find that hard to believe, if true, that we haven’t heard about it.
 

LeadZeke

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I shot the 308 (7.8lbs version) at a demo and liked it a lot. Will probably be buying one in the near future if I can shift some inventory. Again, I think using a Craddock Precision Bartlein and promising 1/2moa 5 shot (not 25 shot) isn't outlandish. We see those results all the time from members of this forum with those barrels.
 

bigjake83

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I shot the 308 (7.8lbs version) at a demo and liked it a lot. Will probably be buying one in the near future if I can shift some inventory. Again, I think using a Craddock Precision Bartlein and promising 1/2moa 5 shot (not 25 shot) isn't outlandish. We see those results all the time from members of this forum with those barrels.

That's was kinda my point, F4 isn't doing anything a knowledgeable Home Builder isn't... They're just outfitting their receivers with some of the best parts available.
 

LeadZeke

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Well they are doing one thing we cannot: machining their own G2-size receivers that weigh a lot less than anything we can buy (without going to the 2a Xanthos which is not very stiff) and adding their own "intermediate" sized G2 BCGs. They are an inch shorter OAL all things being equal, and also lighter (while retaining more rigidity) than anything you can build yourself in an AR10 platform.

I totally agree bigjake that the accuracy is nothing special and you could probably build the same or even better IF weight/size weren't a big concern. But if size/weight is a primary consideration, I don't really see that they have a peer in the large frame world.
 

RyanScott

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I’d be a lot more impressed if they looked like they weren’t styled by teenagers. Also they should remove the forward assist.
 

LeadZeke

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Agreed, the forward assist should go, and their handguards could certainly look better. But function>form to me.
 

sea2summit

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I shot the 308 (7.8lbs version) at a demo and liked it a lot. Will probably be buying one in the near future if I can shift some inventory. Again, I think using a Craddock Precision Bartlein and promising 1/2moa 5 shot (not 25 shot) isn't outlandish. We see those results all the time from members of this forum with those barrels.
I would think a guarantee means every group...
 

sea2summit

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Well they are doing one thing we cannot: machining their own G2-size receivers that weigh a lot less than anything we can buy (without going to the 2a Xanthos which is not very stiff) and adding their own "intermediate" sized G2 BCGs. They are an inch shorter OAL all things being equal, and also lighter (while retaining more rigidity) than anything you can build yourself in an AR10 platform.

I totally agree bigjake that the accuracy is nothing special and you could probably build the same or even better IF weight/size weren't a big concern. But if size/weight is a primary consideration, I don't really see that they have a peer in the large frame world.
I don’t see many semi’s home built or otherwise consistently putting up 1/2 MOA. Yes they exist but not in a number close to expected let alone guranteeable IMHO.
 

candyx

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If your looking for more then robust then LWRC REPR is your answer.20191119_210810.jpg
 

qqqq33

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My bolt peened. My buddies bolt peened and his chamber was too short and too rough. Good concept though.
Please excuse my ignorance what does peened mean? And he had a proof research carbon fiber barrel with a bad chamber?
 

bigjake83

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Well they are doing one thing we cannot: machining their own G2-size receivers that weigh a lot less than anything we can buy (without going to the 2a Xanthos which is not very stiff) and adding their own "intermediate" sized G2 BCGs. They are an inch shorter OAL all things being equal, and also lighter (while retaining more rigidity) than anything you can build yourself in an AR10 platform.

I totally agree bigjake that the accuracy is nothing special and you could probably build the same or even better IF weight/size weren't a big concern. But if size/weight is a primary consideration, I don't really see that they have a peer in the large frame world.
Who knows these new Small frame .308 and 6.5CM could be the advancement in the semi platform or it could just me the next new gimmick.
 

LeadZeke

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After using the small frames, they are no gimmick. More and more companies ripping off the design (Savage, POF, etc.). With modern materials and manufacturing there is just no reason for an AR10 to be as big as it is. There are basically only upsides performance wise from going smaller.

However, since there is basically no standard (beyond G2 which is far from universal), very limited aftermarket, and you cannot even buy the receivers/BCGs for yourself off the shelf yet what I will say is that they are almost proprietary at this point (much like KAC or LMT in that way actually).
 

RyanScott

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Please excuse my ignorance what does peened mean? And he had a proof research carbon fiber barrel with a bad chamber?
It means the bolt is getting unusual wear spots deforming the back edges of the bolt. And this was a savage barrel rather than proof.