Custom load dev.

Smokin7s

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Anybody that’s had a load worked up for their rifle by somebody else what did it cost and what all did that include? I’ve found a company that will work up the load for me run it out to over a thousand print me a dope card and send me a dummy round for $500 is that off base? With the limited shooting time I have I’d like to leave that process to somebody else so that when I go shoot I get to shoot, if that makes sense.
 

308Gunner

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Is that for X number of loaded rounds after it is done. I think WTO does this not sure what they charge but I would not have a problem with Clayton or Jonathan working up a load for me if I didn’t reload and I had the coin
 

chevy_man

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I thought load development was just more practice time behind the gun?

That doesn't seem unreasonable considering the time involved.

Copper Creek load packs would probably be more cost effective but you have to do the shooting.
 
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Smokin7s

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Is that for X number of loaded rounds after it is done. I think WTO does this not sure what they charge but I would not have a problem with Clayton or Jonathan working up a load for me if I didn’t reload and I had the coin
Yeah I’m gonna reload he’s just gonna find the recipe the dope and true mv and send a dummy round home and make a profile with all the info on the rifle.
 

Winny94

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You don't have time to find a load, but you'll have time to shoot? Load development isn't that complicated nor time consuming
 

Smokin7s

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You don't have time to find a load, but you'll have time to shoot? Load development isn't that complicated nor time consuming
I didn’t really need to know what you thought of my time management. I don’t enjoy that kind of process and would rather leave it to somebody with more supplies at their dispersal who is also more efficient. I asked about the pricing.
 

wade2big

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Factory ammo today is fantastic. I shoot factory 140gr American gunner and Prime 130GR in my 6.5 creed moor and factory 175gr FGMM in my .308 and have no trouble at the 900 yards my personal range maxes out at.

Do you know what the SD of these loads are out of my rifle? I don’t and don’t care. Do you know what my muzzle velocity is over a mgnetospeed? I don’t know that either and sure as hell don’t care. I zero at 100 yards. I guess at 400 and put a hit on the plate. Measure my error and write down the true hold. Do the same at 500 and change the muzzle velocity in a free app to make my real world 500 yard dope match. Now I shoot at 750 and measure the difference and write that down. The correction at 750 is good enough for me to get hits on a 12” x 20” at 900. I fine tune it there and play with my muzzle velocity on a free ballistic app until my 900 yard elevation numbers match what I had to actually hold. Now I have real world elevation and muzzle velocity data and it took me all of 30 minutes to get starting with a rifle that isn’t even zeroed. No kestrel. No chrono, no fancy ballistic calculator.

I’m like you OP. I like to shoot not hand load. I shoot a lot because my range is just out the door. If I had to hand load, I wouldn’t shoot nearly as much. I typically shoot 50-75 rounds every weekend.
 
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Winny94

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I didn’t really need to know what you thought of my time management. I don’t enjoy that kind of process and would rather leave it to somebody with more supplies at their dispersal who is also more efficient. I asked about the pricing.
Pricing is ridiculous
 

Smokin7s

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Factory ammo today is fantastic. I shoot factory 140gr American gunner and Prime 130GR in my 6.5 creed moor and factory 175gr FGMM in my .308 and have no trouble at the 900 yards my personal range maxes out at.

Do you know what the SD of these loads are out of my rifle? I don’t and don’t care. Do you know what my muzzle velocity is over a mgnetospeed? I don’t know that either and sure as hell don’t care. I zero at 100 yards. I guess at 400 and put a hit on the plate. Measure my error and write down the true hold. Do the same at 500 and change the muzzle velocity in a free app to make my real world 500 yard dope match. Now I shoot at 750 and measure the difference and write that down. The correction at 750 is good enough for me to get hits on a 12” x 20” at 900. I fine tune it there and play with my muzzle velocity on a free ballistic app until my 900 yard elevation numbers match what I had to actually hold. Now I have real world data and it took me all of 30 minutes to get starting with a rifle that isn’t even zeroed. No kestrel. No chrono, no fancy ballistic calculator.
I have data on hornady black I’ve been shooting that I just want a little more out of the rifle.
 

wade2big

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I have data on hornady black I’ve been shooting that I just want a little more out of the rifle.
What do you think the load lacks? It’s the same as the American gunner stuff which you should buy because it is sold in bulk at 70 cents per round vs the $1 per round of the black. It is a little slow and doesn’t have the bc of the 147gr Eldm but matches the prime and the 139gr scenars everyone shoots.
 

Smokin7s

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What do you think the load lacks? It is a little slow and doesn’t have the be of the 147gr Eldm but matches the prime and the 139gr scenario everyone shoots
I’d just like it to shoot a little better
 

Smokin7s

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Ok. It must not work well in your rifle. Not all loads do. My MPA barrel, tikka barrels, and sako TRG barrels love the stuff.
It shoots like .78 same as the 108 match I want to shoot Berger’s
 

wade2big

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It shoots like .78 same as the 108 match I want to shoot Berger’s
That isn’t the best but that 3/4” load will make good hits at distance. There are many more variables out there than the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. How far do you shoot, or do you just shoot for groups close up?

Here is factory 175 FGMM with my sako trg. It’s a 5rd group at 100 yards. Shot it yesterday messing around. I shoot very few groups as it is not my cup of tea.


D00AC01B-630C-421A-B18F-734F84D71272.jpeg
 

Smokin7s

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That isn’t the best but that 3/4” load will make good hits at distance. There are many more variables out there than the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. How far do you shoot, or do you just shoot for groups close up?

Here is factory FGMM with my sako trg. 5rd group at 100 yards.
100-1100 I know it’s good enough I just don’t trust the consistency
 

wade2big

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100-1100 I know it’s good enough I just don’t trust the consistency
I can’t vouch for it out of your gun at any distance and can’t vouch for it out of my guns past 900 yards but If I miss it isn’t because of an elevation error due to muzzle velocity. It is always right or left because of the wind.

Have you noticed problems with the load?
Here is a picture of a 5 round group at 900 yards with American gunner (same load you shoot.) I missed the plate once off the right side. 12” plate
CC97ED0F-0936-43ED-A9BE-B655B2A19D43.jpeg
 
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FCS

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Yeah I’m gonna reload he’s just gonna find the recipe the dope and true mv and send a dummy round home and make a profile with all the info on the rifle.
Make sure you use exact same lot # of powder, primers, bullets and run same comparator length as guy who did the load development.
 

swampbuck

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I have had it done by Copper Creek and it was fair for me. It certainly isn't for everyone and boils down to how valuable your time is. If you are a brain surgeon and have the money but not the time I say go for it. If you are a Walmart greeter with plenty of time and not a lot of money then no. It is as simple as that.

I liked Copper Creek. Some services want to charge you for developing a load and then will only sell you custom ammunition that they make. I certainly wouldn't pay someone to develop a load and them not give me the recipe. Also I would only do this on a new barrel with peak milage and you do need to consider factory options and info out there. I wouldn't do it for say a 308 Winchester because accurate factory ammo for all types of bullets is just out there. I really liked that when the 6.5 CM was released Hornady had the load printed on box.

Lawyer, Doctor, ditch digger? Sounds like you are somewhere between if you have to ask. But I say the price is fair given the research I did. Again certainly not for everyone
 
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FCS

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“Problem” with giving recipe is that unless exact same lot #s are used for primer, powder, bullet and brand of brass there is a different amount of pressure generated.
Since the probability of end user and entity doing load development having exactly same lot #s is essentially zero, the ability to hand off a recipe is also zero. Can supply suggestions but without the end user having exact same component lot #s as entity that developed load, it isn't the same recipe.
 

wade2big

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“Problem” with giving recipe is that unless exact same lot #s are used for primer, powder, bullet and brand of brass there is a different amount of pressure generated.
Since the probability of end user and entity doing load development having exactly same lot #s is essentially zero, the ability to hand off a recipe is also zero. Can supply suggestions but without the end user having exact same component lot #s as entity that developed load, it isn't the same recipe.
I understand what you are saying but the information should be passed along anyhow. I haven’t used these services, but would not consider it unless this was the case.

If it is made known to the customer that the process is cloaked in secrecy and they agree to the terms then alls good.
 

FCS

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I understand what you are saying but the information should be passed along anyhow. I haven’t used these services, but would not consider it unless this was the case.

If it is made known to the customer that the process is cloaked in secrecy and they agree to the terms then alls good.
I respectfully disagree.
Check with your liability insurance carrier on such items and get back to me.
Passing load data to your shooting buddy when you are not a licensed mfg'er is a whole lot different than when you are. When your liability insurance carrier says "You shouldn't do that", I'm going to listen and gain an understanding as to why. Add in a couple real world experiences and reason becomes crystal clear.

Process isn't cloaked in secrecy but there are some pieces of information that can not be passed along without a caveat. Isn't nearly as cut and dried as many would like to believe it to be.
Some information has to be a suggestion due to unknown variables.
 
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swampbuck

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If pressures very as much as you seem to suggest from lot to lot then I don't think any written load data would be useful. It would all be crap regardless if it was a load that you developed and wrote in a notebook yourself, obtained from a loading manual or a company like Copper Creek. I do understand what you are saying and do not suggest that a cpany like this should push the envelope and ever go above published maximums.
 

b6graham

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If pressures very as much as you seem to suggest from lot to lot then I don't think any written load data would be useful. It would all be crap regardless if it was a load that you developed and wrote in a notebook yourself, obtained from a loading manual or a company like Copper Creek. I do understand what you are saying and do not suggest that a cpany like this should push the envelope and ever go above published maximums.
Written load data is only semi useful

Guidelines. Not hard fact

I've had 1.2 grain differences in my 7SAW between lots of varget for same speed

Look at the 'published load data' from Hodhon Hornady etc we all run higher than their max charges. By a lot most of the time.
 

diggler1833

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To me, load workup is half the fun, the other half being doping/CBS mapping. After that it's just skills practice when I shoot that particular rifle.

However, time is money to some people, and load development can take up a lot of it if you are searching for tiny groups. I've had rifles that shot sub-half MOA on the first load...and I've had rifles that took nearly 100 rounds over several days to get that kind of accuracy. I shoot out of my shop now, but there was a time when I had to drive to the range and pay fees.
 

FCS

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Last lot # change was 0.8 gr to get same velocity. Majority of the time, closer to 0.2 or 0.3 gr +/- but every now and again you see a larger variation. Largest variation I’ve seen was 1.5 gr to get same overall performance.
EVERY powder mfg’er, every version of powder they make shows this. I’ve learned there is no exception, start low and work up to verify burn rate of lot # being used.
If you just throw in same charge weight as last lot # and let rip, you are going to be pretty warm if not out right hot.
Where you are on pressure curve has huge influence also, pressure curve is not linear.
Loading manuals vary quite a bit, lot of variables.
Hence, one can not supply a recipe unless everything is exactly the same lot #, base to ogive is same, brass brand is same (you’d be surprised how many people change brass, don’t account for case capacity difference).
One can supply suggestions but not a recipe.

Load for a really wide variety of chambers, barrel mfg’ers and your view changes rapidly.
 
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swampbuck

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I never exceed published maximums. I figure if you need to go faster than published maximums than get a magnum. If you still need to go faster get a Lazzeroni and if you still need to go faster you need to get laid.
 

Winny94

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“Problem” with giving recipe is that unless exact same lot #s are used for primer, powder, bullet and brand of brass there is a different amount of pressure generated.
Since the probability of end user and entity doing load development having exactly same lot #s is essentially zero, the ability to hand off a recipe is also zero. Can supply suggestions but without the end user having exact same component lot #s as entity that developed load, it isn't the same recipe.
And the externals need to be somewhat similar - having a company in montana develop a load to shoot iowa may be futile.
 

Winny94

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I never exceed published maximums. I figure if you need to go faster than published maximums than get a magnum. If you still need to go faster get a Lazzeroni and if you still need to go faster you need to get laid.
well theres some fun logic for a sunday
 

DownhillFromHere

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Back to the OP's question about return on investment (ROI) of $500 for a "customized" load:

Well, if the "standard" of comparison is Hornady Black / American Gunner, that's not a very high bar. Yes, for the price it's darn good stuff - I still have two unopened 200-round cans of it plus some loose rounds - but it's definitely not as consistent (in my 6.5CM) as Hornady 140 or 147 ELD-M at 400 yards or longer, and it's not close to Berger 140s (handloads, but available as factory rounds in Lapua brass which can be sold to greatly mitigate price).

Seems to me it would be a better ROI to buy a box or two each of Prime, Berger, and Lapua on the high end or even Hornady ELD-M on the low end and see which performs best. Given the reality that a customized load has a fairly high chance of varying a bit with the next lot of powder, bullet, brass, etc., $500 seems like an extremely high price to pay when viewed against the likelihood of finding a factory match round giving excellent performance.
 
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