Current state of MOA and MIL

OverWatching

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I have always used moa, but my last scope purchase was mil because I got tired of being the outcast, and speaking a different language at matches.
Is there any advantage to speaking a different language at a match? I am in the same boat and thinking of switching for the same reasons. But at a match would it be better if others couldn’t instantly know my wind call? (I’ve never been t is match but I wouldn’t give my plays away in football)....
 

Campguy308

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Is there any advantage to speaking a different language at a match? I am in the same boat and thinking of switching for the same reasons. But at a match would it be better if others couldn’t instantly know my wind call? (I’ve never been t is match but I wouldn’t give my plays away in football)....
My advice to you is to use mils if you plan to shoot prs/nrl type matches. I don't think you will gain anything by speaking your "own" language. I believe in spotting your own shots and making your own corrections, but you will benefit more from speaking the language of the masses.
 
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hlee

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Mil ranging (or MOA ranging if you swing that way) is a legacy skill that doesn't often come into play any more. Range finders are cheap and plentiful. Many matches give distances to the targets (not all, I know). Today, in 2019, the reticle is primarily used for holdovers and wind correction. It boggles the mind to think that one could know how to use one and not the other. It's analogous to saying "I can measure in inches using an inch ruler, but can't measure in centimeters using a centimeter ruler."

Very few can shoot the difference between 1/4 MOA and 1/10 MRad, so picking one based on the fineness of graduation is dubious at best.

Ballistics calculators output both, so you can have a calculated and confirmed dope chart in either measurement. Dialing corrections is as simple as looking up the range on the sheet and making the corrections on the scope and/or holding off using the reticle.

Why pick one over the other? If you are shooting by yourself, IT DOESN'T MATTER. But, if you are shooting with a group it might.

Do you or your shooting buddies have a spotting scope with a ranging reticle? You might want your scope adjustments/reticle to match that reticle. What reticles/adjustments are in the scopes of the people you shoot with? You might want to be able to "speak the same language."

Do you (or are you planning to) compete? What adjustments/reticles are common in your chosen discipline? If you suck at reading wind, you might want to glean info from others in your squad quickly. Here's a hint- in PRS style matches you're more likely to hear wind calls in amount of hold off, not mph. As often as not, hold off is announced as "left edge of plate" or some other measurement agnostic description, making MOA v Mrad moot for this point. If you're really good at reading the wind, you might want to confirm your wind calls with others in your squad efficiently. This goes equally for elevation adjustment/hold overs.

Do you never plan on ever using info from others? Pick whatever you like, but you still might want to go with the majority because plans change.

If none of the above applies, you can always fall back on "MOA is easier because I think in inches." If you do this, please start a new thread- announcing your choice- in The Bear Pit...
 
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joelinux

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If they all jump off the bridge?
Then they must know something I don't.
@joelinux are you just going to ignore this very...very...very good question?


you literally said in your original post you wanted the MilXT. then proceeded to ask MOA vs MIL

what?
Because I'm open to change. If everyone said, "dumb dumb decision", I'd rethink it. So far, that hasn't been the case.

And now, the internet being what it is, I expect a deluge of people trolling me to tell me it's a dumb decision, and I should weld iron sights on my RPR. :p
 

Lowlight

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The problem is, companies mix SMOA AND TMOA

Nightforce is TMOA, Leupold is SMOA

This has a measurable difference and nobody bothers to check which they have.

You also see companies mix reticles and turrets between the two. The reticles are made to TMOA and the Turrets are rounded to SMOA

That is why MOA needs to die a happy death, the companies has spoiled and mixed it between the angle and linear values

We want to use the ANGLE, and ignore the linear values as every angle as a linear value
 

JC0352

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Then they must know something I don't.

Because I'm open to change. If everyone said, "dumb dumb decision", I'd rethink it. So far, that hasn't been the case.

And now, the internet being what it is, I expect a deluge of people trolling me to tell me it's a dumb decision, and I should weld iron sights on my RPR. :p
@hookedonbrass I think what we’re getting at is going right over his head...

@joelinux the 7-35 mil xt is a mil scope... you can’t get it in MOA
 

JayseM_SportOptics

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Why? Not trolling, but why Mil other than because people use it....
Because of how quickly it is to dial or hold over since it's a coarser unit of measurement. I also like how to units are in tenths vs quarters, but that's just personal preference.
 

JC0352

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No, I get it. If people said I shouldn't get the milxt, and should switch to a MOA based reticle, I'd contemplate it.
Have you looked at what your options are for that scope in moa? You’ve only got one versus several in mil. On top of that, what Lowlight posted about the problems with moa PLUS being the odd man out speaking a different “language” in some circles would point most people toward mil. Really though, it’s your money; buy the reticle you like
 

joelinux

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Have you looked at what your options are for that scope in moa? You’ve only got one versus several in mil. On top of that, what Lowlight posted about the problems with moa PLUS being the odd man out speaking a different “language” in some circles would point most people toward mil. Really though, it’s your money; buy the reticle you like
That's just it, I don't know what the norm is. That's why I asked. Sounds like mil is the way to go though.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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The problem is, companies mix SMOA AND TMOA
I would never trust any ret or knobs no matter the Mfg until, they have been fully vetted on a target or barber pole. Many a SFP scope ret is not correct on the supposed, correct setting. I've found FFP mil ret's wrong as well. It's best to trust,... only after verifying.
 

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Maybe this will actually help rather than persons just arguing about something most people don't know about.
 
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CJS-6.5

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I know it doesn't matter to you or most of the guys on here but seriously there seems to be still people that are too lazy to learn what you took the time to learn years ago. Nothing wrong with learning something the old way...
 

joelinux

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Im asking what the current state is, not which one is better.

Put it this way...in 1992, my dad bought the family a cyrix computer, because he thought he knew better.

After that debacle, I learned to always find out the more popular choice in a given field, and find out why.

This wasn't supposed to be a discuss about the differences, or which was better. It was just supposed to be about who is using which one, and which one is more common.

I don't want to be the dorky kid who gets the TurboGrafx 16.
 

CJS-6.5

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It may be a waste of time but it does point out that the mil vs moa thing is simple math. So people just need to pick out what equation fits them and their needs.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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Some people don't have a clue by thinking that owning the tool, is the saving grace. The tool is no better than it's user, no matter the tools design or name. Then again some think the tool will impart ability in all venue's/tasks said tool is used in,...please stay with that mind set.
 

CJS-6.5

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Some people don't have a clue by thinking that owning the tool, is the saving grace. The tool is no better than it's user, no matter the tools design or name. Then again some think the tool will impart ability in all venue's/tasks said tool is used in,...please stay with that mind set.
Well said. If most of them were as good at finding shooting solutions as not being able to Jack off they would be covered in medals.
 

OverWatching

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Based on a few comments on this thread, and some advice, I just completely switched to MILS from MOA. I sold my MOA scopes to a buddy and bought 2 Vortex with MRAD EBR-7. Now to retrain my brain..... Thank you for the advice BTW.
 

joelinux

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Based on a few comments on this thread, and some advice, I just completely switched to MILS from MOA. I sold my MOA scopes to a buddy and bought 2 Vortex with MRAD EBR-7. Now to retrain my brain..... Thank you for the advice BTW.
I take it that was the right move to make, in your opinion?
 
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OverWatching

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My advice to you is to use mils if you plan to shoot prs/nrl type matches. I don't think you will gain anything by speaking your "own" language. I believe in spotting your own shots and making your own corrections, but you will benefit more from speaking the language of the masses.
Thank you for the advice. It actually pushed me over the edge and I just replaced both my MOA scopes with MRAD. I really needed to read that....
 

Luvman

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Do you think in inches or centimeters?
I machine shit for a living. I think in inches for LINEAR measurements. And I think tenths of degrees not minutes and seconds (yes there is such a thing) for ANGULAR measurements.

I run Mil/Mil scopes.

One has NOTHING to do with the other. What’s your point?

Which is greater? 30.34 degrees or 30*20’24” degrees?

30*20’24” is read 30 degrees 20 minutes 24 seconds.




Trick question. They’re the same angle. Just like 1 Mil is 3.6 MOA.

Now which do you think would be easier to work with?

Inches and centimeters don’t have a damn thing to do with angles. Period. Full stop.
 

CJS-6.5

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I machine shit for a living. I think in inches for LINEAR measurements. And I think tenths of degrees not minutes and seconds (yes there is such a thing) for ANGULAR measurements.

I run Mil/Mil scopes.

One has NOTHING to do with the other. What’s your point?

Which is greater? 30.34 degrees or 30*20’24” degrees?

30*20’24” is read 30 degrees 20 minutes 24 seconds.




Trick question. They’re the same angle. Just like 1 Mil is 3.6 MOA.

Now which do you think would be easier to work with?

Inches and centimeters don’t have a damn thing to do with angles. Period. Full stop.
This exactly...it's just a mind block to most people. It's just an equation. If you can't do math there is ballistic apps for the dumb shits. What they will do when shift who knows...probably die because they didn't learn the ways that Frank says are old fashioned.
 

CJS-6.5

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When shtf. No offense of course...I'm being gentle.
 

Dthomas3523

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This exactly...it's just a mind block to most people. It's just an equation. If you can't do math there is ballistic apps for the dumb shits. What they will do when shift who knows...probably die because they didn't learn the ways that Frank says are old fashioned.
So, in your world, “shit will hit the fan,” ballistic calculators and electronics won’t work.......and people will die.........because they don’t know their dope for a rifle??

What toxic waste land mad max Tom berenger bob swagard shit hits the fan scenario is this where all of a sudden being able to shoot a rifle at 500+ is going to even remotely matter?

I can think of quite a few shit hit the fan scenarios that will be more important than “oh shit I don’t know my dope.”
 

308pirate

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Mil ranging (or MOA ranging if you swing that way) is a legacy skill that doesn't often come into play any more. Range finders are cheap and plentiful. Many matches give distances to the targets (not all, I know). Today, in 2019, the reticle is primarily used for holdovers and wind correction. It boggles the mind to think that one could know how to use one and not the other. It's analogous to saying "I can measure in inches using an inch ruler, but can't measure in centimeters using a centimeter ruler."

Very few can shoot the difference between 1/4 MOA and 1/10 MRad, so picking one based on the fineness of graduation is dubious at best.

Ballistics calculators output both, so you can have a calculated and confirmed dope chart in either measurement. Dialing corrections is as simple as looking up the range on the sheet and making the corrections on the scope and/or holding off using the reticle.

Why pick one over the other? If you are shooting by yourself, IT DOESN'T MATTER. But, if you are shooting with a group it might.

Do you or your shooting buddies have a spotting scope with a ranging reticle? You might want your scope adjustments/reticle to match that reticle. What reticles/adjustments are in the scopes of the people you shoot with? You might want to be able to "speak the same language."

Do you (or are you planning to) compete? What adjustments/reticles are common in your chosen discipline? If you suck at reading wind, you might want to glean info from others in your squad quickly. Here's a hint- in PRS style matches you're more likely to hear wind calls in amount of hold off, not mph. As often as not, hold off is announced as "left edge of plate" or some other measurement agnostic description, making MOA v Mrad moot for this point. If you're really good at reading the wind, you might want to confirm your wind calls with others in your squad efficiently. This goes equally for elevation adjustment/hold overs.

Do you never plan on ever using info from others? Pick whatever you like, but you still might want to go with the majority because plans change.

If none of the above applies, you can always fall back on "MOA is easier because I think in inches." If you do this, please start a new thread- announcing your choice- in The Bear Pit...
Pin that motherfucker up

Best summary yet
 

308pirate

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I machine shit for a living. I think in inches for LINEAR measurements. And I think tenths of degrees not minutes and seconds (yes there is such a thing) for ANGULAR measurements.

I run Mil/Mil scopes.

One has NOTHING to do with the other. What’s your point?

Which is greater? 30.34 degrees or 30*20’24” degrees?

30*20’24” is read 30 degrees 20 minutes 24 seconds.




Trick question. They’re the same angle. Just like 1 Mil is 3.6 MOA.

Now which do you think would be easier to work with?

Inches and centimeters don’t have a damn thing to do with angles. Period. Full stop.
Bro, you fell for the bait
 

Gunfighter14e2

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When shtf. No offense of course...I'm being gentle.
Don't sweat the small shit, look at it this way. We have the finest shit issued the gov can buy after stealing the money, from the tax payers of this country yet,... still have issue with iron sighted weapons used by cave dwellers. We always allude to high tech being the be all, but we have won what past 8-8-1945 with it?
 

Subwrx300

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So, I've ordered my RPR 6.5.

Next paycheck is the NF ATACR F1 7-35x56 MILXT

Now comes the next great question: MILs vs MOA.

I've heard some great back and forth on here.

From what I can ascertain, MOA used to be king of the hill, but the new crop is coming in with a lot more MIL these days, as well as most military folks.

As someone who has to learn all this from scratch, would you recommend MOAs or MILs?
Considering the Mil XT is Mil only reticle....Ummm, go with Mils? Lol.