Carlos ? or Who?

LG65CM

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Two photos attached. One is most commonly seen when Carlos Hathcock is written about and in B&W (cropped) the other is in color, not cropped and mentions another sniper. Who is really in this photo? Thought you all here might be the best place to start sorting this one out. 1st time I have seen this and it is a curious thing. lg
 

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Carlos Danger

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Two photos attached. One is most commonly seen when Carlos Hathcock is written about and in B&W (cropped) the other is in color, not cropped and mentions another sniper. Who is really in this photo? Thought you all here might be the best place to start sorting this one out. 1st time I have seen this and it is a curious thing. lg
Wish I could help but this is a sore subject for me.
 

Son of Dorn

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Apparently the picture is not Hathcock, despite it being shown in countless media related to him. It is indeed Lance Corporal Dalton Gunderson, USMC, during Operation: Virginia (1966). Here's a scan of the National Archives file card:
1569107127610.png
 
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sandwarrior

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One of the things that drives me nuts is publishing companies that, when they can't get a picture, put in a stock photo. I'm sure many other historians probably feel the same, as they then have to address the issue to correct it.

1569244399980.png

There is a better full pic of this, but this is him. This photo is not in Viet Nam, rather in the eighties when he was invited back to speak and teach at the new Marine Scout Sniper School. He had already been medically retired since 1979, I believe.

Just before his first tour in VN:

1569244845929.png
 
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Son of Dorn

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One of the things that drives me nuts is publishing companies that, when they can't get a picture, put in a stock photo. I'm sure many other historians probably feel the same, as they then have to address the issue to correct it.

View attachment 7151944

There is a better full pic of this, but this is him. This photo is not in Viet Nam, rather in the eighties when he was invited back to teach at the new Marine Scout Sniper School. He had already been medically retired since 1979, I believe.
Funnily enough, look what I just found:
1569244700999.png
 
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sandwarrior

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Here's a shot of the .50 he used to make his longest shot:
1569246290176.png

Note: the photo date and story date are two years apart. No wonder so many people were out of touch with what was going on in VN.

Operation deSoto was in January 1967. The article is a typo.
 
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Son of Dorn

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They say this one is of Hathcock too. Not sure on that but vintage suppressed M14? Yes, please, and thank you. I've seen it captioned as "Hathcock taking aim in Vietnam". Well, yeah, he's... technically aiming but probably at a rock two feet camera right...
1569247160282.png
 

jbell

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They say this one is of Hathcock too. Not sure on that but vintage suppressed M14? Yes, please, and thank you. I've seen it captioned as "Hathcock taking aim in Vietnam". Well, yeah, he's... technically aiming but probably at a rock two feet camera right...
View attachment 7151968
There is so much wrong with that position in picture it makes me feel like it could not have been Hathcock. Coming from a shooting background I highly doubt he would assume an offhand position like that even when just posing for a picture. But maybe my assumptions are wrong...
 

lash

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These do not look like the same person. Note particularly the eyebrows and nose. Different.

..,Just before his first tour in VN:

View attachment 7151948
They say this one is of Hathcock too. Not sure on that but vintage suppressed M14? Yes, please, and thank you. I've seen it captioned as "Hathcock taking aim in Vietnam". Well, yeah, he's... technically aiming but probably at a rock two feet camera right...
View attachment 7151968
 

Son of Dorn

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@lash I don't think they're the same person, either, no. But that's pretty much our point, that many photos of "Hathcock" circulating around aren't of him.
 
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Son of Dorn

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There is so much wrong with that position in picture it makes me feel like it could not have been Hathcock. Coming from a shooting background I highly doubt he would assume an offhand position like that even when just posing for a picture. But maybe my assumptions are wrong...
According to this site, he might be a guy from the 9th Infantry: https://www.the-military-mark.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=196481372 . A couple other photos in the album show 9th Infantry fellows, including one with M70 rifle towards the end. But even if it's not Hathcock, that position is disgraceful. Let's just pretend the photographer snapped the shot too early and that the suppressor made the rifle too heavy and unwieldy for a quick position.
 

sandwarrior

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They say this one is of Hathcock too. Not sure on that but vintage suppressed M14? Yes, please, and thank you. I've seen it captioned as "Hathcock taking aim in Vietnam". Well, yeah, he's... technically aiming but probably at a rock two feet camera right...
View attachment 7151968
It is not. First, look at the weapon. His unit was never issued the scope or the scionic suppressor. That looks like an XM-21, with those items. Also, it doesn't really look like him that much, what you can see. And, no date reference.
 

Son of Dorn

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It is not. First, look at the weapon. His unit was never issued the scope or the scionic suppressor. That looks like an XM-21, with those items. Also, it doesn't really look like him that much, what you can see. And, no date reference.
No, it doesn't look like him but if it's an American wearing green with a sniper rifle in what may be the Indochinese peninsula? Why, then it MUST be Hathcock! The internet wouldn't lie to us! ;)
 
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LG65CM

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Thank you all for the facts of the matter. I am an administrator of a group on Facebook. Vietnamwarhistory.org. This group was started by Erik Villard who at the time was the civilian military historian for the Army and during its time in Vietnam. ( Erik still works for the Army but finishing his work on its history in VN, he is now working on the Army's history of WW1. I will pass this on to Erik and the group)

I wanted some confirmation that the individuals in the photos I posted were not Carlos and figured I would get the real dope ( pun intended) here, where you guys study sniper rifles. Appreciate it , lg
 

Random Guy

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Here's an artist rendition of Carlos Hathcock on a mission. He has a white feather in this cap, hence his nickname during that conflict.

Most of his 1967 tour he used a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 (in 30-06) reportedly with a Sporter stock and an 8X Unertl scope. In his 1969 tour he was issued an M40, but the LMT-5 amtrack he was riding ran over an anti-tank mine, exploded, and he was seriously injured. His M40 rifle was destroyed in the ensuing fire. Anyhow, here's an accurate rendition of him with his primary weapon.

Carlos_Hathcok_picture.jpg

The most famous M40 used in Vietnam was probably this rifle (it was used by Benjamin 'Chuck' Mawhinney' circa 1968-1969.)
It is on display in the USMC museum at Quantico, VA. It was restored in 1996 by a retired MOS 2112 that I met.

IMG_8615.JPG

IMG_8617.JPG

IMG_8618.JPG

Mawhinney lived a quiet life after leaving Vietnam and the USMC in 1970, and never had quite the same public recognition as Hathcock, but he was certainly one of the best Scout-Snipers from that era. Here's a 2012 article on him:
 
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Random Guy

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Color picture of a USMC M70 sniper with Sporter stock, medium-heavy barrel, an presumably an 8x Unertl scope. Carlos Hathcock's primary rifle used in 1967 was reportedly the same configuration.

Vietnam_era_M70.jpg
 
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Son of Dorn

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The web belt should tell you everything you need to know.
This is also true. But the point is that to the media, Vietnam-era guy with sniper rifle = Hathcock, no matter how obvious it is that he isn't.
 

lash

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At the LR practice a couple weekends ago, I met another Vietnam sniper who shot with Carlos. I seem to meet a new one every other month or so. Some of them must have been barely in their teens judging from estimated age.

I never bite on those declarations, only nod and smile. It’s truly not worth my time. Especially when so many of them have difficulty hitting anything.
 

sandwarrior

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The web belt should tell you everything you need to know.
I can't get a close up on the pic, but if you're looking for this type belt: (not original, just the style)
This would show the guy was a REMF, as that kind of buckle should not have made out into the field.

But, FTR, I had both issued to me. The solid face brass type buckle was for my class-A's.
 

Chingon

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I can't get a close up on the pic, but if you're looking for this type belt: (not original, just the style)
This would show the guy was a REMF, as that kind of buckle should not have made out into the field.

But, FTR, I had both issued to me. The solid face brass type buckle was for my class-A's.

As far as I know, that buckle was never issued in the Marine Corps, nor the black web belt. And if it wasn't issued in The Corps, coupled with that weapons system, chances are that's Soldier, not a Marine...but I have been wrong before.
 

Son of Dorn

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@sandwarrior & @Chingon Solid brass and open buckle were issued to Army and Marines respectively for fatigue use, yeah, but that doesn't mean one or the other never coulda gotten ahold of the other style in-country and used it instead. But 99% of the picture (and the link I posted somewhere in this thread with the same pic listing it as a 9th Infantry guy) suggests Army. But tell that to the media who don't pay any attention when they write up articles. 😜
 

sandwarrior

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As far as I know, that buckle was never issued in the Marine Corps, nor the black web belt. And if it wasn't issued in The Corps, coupled with that weapons system, chances are that's Soldier, not a Marine...but I have been wrong before.
What I was trying to show is the style. Not that this belt was the issue belt. I can't say if those were issued or not to the Marines. I do believe the full brass face had the Eagle, Globe and Anchor.

Added: Someone may have mentioned it before, but would a boonie hat be normal instead of a standard "cover" back in base?
 
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Snuby642

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Interesting in all these posed photos that none are using thier sling.
Thought slinging was a thing back then for precision shooting?

The guy in seated position, were both elbows not on a knee in that time frame?
 

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The only person I know of to get some actual answers might be Maj. Land. I believe he served with Hathcock. As far as I know he is still alive and kicking Maybe he sees this?
 

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The only person I know of to get some actual answers might be Maj. Land. I believe he served with Hathcock. As far as I know he is still alive and kicking Maybe he sees this?
Nah, the guys on the M14 Forum can answer all these questions in a heartbeat. I'm really surprised how much knowledge is lost in this forum, especially regarding a legend. 15 years ago lots of folks were interested in the history of White Feather. Now, not so much. Was really surprised at how many questions folks asked about the M70 I have for sale with Major Land's autograph. Folks didn't know who he is.
 
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Zeroit

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Nah, the guys on the M14 Forum can answer all these questions in a heartbeat. I'm really surprised how much knowledg is lost in this forum, especially regarding a legend. 15 years ago lots of folks were interested in the history of White Feather. Now, not so much. Was really surprised at how many questions folks asked about the M70 I have for sale with Major Land's autograph. Folks didn't know who he is.
He's a piece of history.
 

sandwarrior

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He's a piece of history.
That is unfortunately what happens when people zero in on a "hero". All the other people that had so much to do with the success of the program get "zeroed out". Not that they want the publicity. It's not only that there is more than one very good resource, there are many! And, many ways to accomplish the missions of snipers. Most of these historic guys can provide excellent advice even to today's snipers,
 
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Random Guy

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The only person I know of to get some actual answers might be Maj. Land. I believe he served with Hathcock. As far as I know he is still alive and kicking Maybe he sees this?
Maj. Land was Carlos Hathcock's commanding officer in Vietnam. I doubt he reads posts on forums, he's busy with his farm and other activities. I took my USMC replica/tribute M70 to Quantico Shooting Club's 'Remember the Brave' match in May 2018, and Maj. Land was there, so we talked a bit about Model 70s and I had a picture taken with him (attached). I think he's about 85 now, and still a tough old Marine...

For anyone interested, Peter Senich's book, The One-Round War, is a pretty good reference book of the Vietnam era USMC sniping program development and equipment history, including the M70 and M40 rifles and related history.
 

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