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deersniper

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Haven't seen $.25 ammo in a long time. Better get on it
Also PSA has hornady m193 with 10 Pmags for $350. Surprisingly consistent and accurate out to 550.

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Basher

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Haven't seen $.25 ammo in a long time. Better get on it
Also PSA has hornady m193 with 10 Pmags for $350. Surprisingly consistent and accurate out to 550.

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Do you have a link to this 25¢ ammo, because there's a lot of venders out on the net, and you don't reference any one in particular.
 

deersniper

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The hornady frontier is about 2x as accurate as the federal ae.
Shot a .75" group with a semi while testing clip on thermal poi today. It has potential. Hornady makes good stuff.
 
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ArmyJerry

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well I been reading some strange reports on the 77s out of the shorter barrels.

I dont own a SBR , never thought Id need anything between a carbine and a pistol, I know its the rage now but as an old man who is used to slinging an A1 I feel a carbine is maneuverable enough and combined with green tips it fits the short range requirements. I am old fashioned though.
 

TheGerman

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well I been reading some strange reports on the 77s out of the shorter barrels.
You wont get the advantage of the 77g out of the short barrel; shortest I'd go is 16 with 77g.

Plus remember, M193 needs to be at 1700fps at a minimum on impact for it to reliably fragment. 77g design is different and relies more on the yaw/tumble/hydro static wound channel as far as terminal ballistics.

That's why I'm saying either run 5.56 in a shorter gun because 90% of engagements are at less than 200 yards (you wont be under 1700fps until I think somewhere around 300+ with an 11.5) and CQB with a 20" A2 just plain sucks. The extra length just isn't worth it to me. Or, if you're going to need some distance yet want to not paint yourself in the corner with a bolt gun or a heavier SASS, the 16" Mk12ModH is truly a do it all gun with the 77g.

Otherwise, if you think you're going to be shooting some decent distances consistently, you need something completely different than the 5.56.
 
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2ndamendfan

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You 2 are on opposite ends of the spectrum. 77gr isn't necessarily for QCB work, nor are 20 inch barrels. 55gr and 11 inch barrels not for 500 yard engagements.
Best to have some of both, you know have all bases covered.
 

deersniper

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This is just for stockpiling / steel shooting.
I'd pick 50-60 gr vmax or 77 tipped match king for shooting live targets.
 

TheGerman

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You 2 are on opposite ends of the spectrum. 77gr isn't necessarily for QCB work, nor are 20 inch barrels. 55gr and 11 inch barrels not for 500 yard engagements.
Best to have some of both, you know have all bases covered.
That's kind of why I have the Holland. Same length as a regular carbine but hits reliably at 700; only real downside is the weight due to the optic (which can come off and make the Holland basically a heavy barrel carbine). You'll never know what you'll need until you really get to where you need to use it; the other alternative is to do what I did in Afghanistan often and commented on a lot before, and have both the SBR and a SASS with you, but now you are carrying 2 weapons.

Everything has an upside/downside. For what the 'buy more ammo' argument is loosely geared towards, I'd suggest a shorter weapon in 5.56 and proficiency in engagements from 0-250 yards with it.
 

W54/XM-388

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The nice thing with the AR platform is you can setup your lower the way you like it and then swap out uppers as you wish depending on the configuration.

I'm at the start of experimenting with longer barreled ARs.

One thing I'm interested in is what the difference in volume / blast / temporary hearing is if you have to grab your unsuppressed AR suddenly and start shooting in a hurry when there isn't time for everyone to wait while you get on your hearing protection. Especially inside a house or such?

There is a pretty huge difference it seems from what others have said in the exit pressure of gas from the barrel as you go up from like 8" to 11" to 16", to 20" to 24" I wonder what difference it would make when shooting unsuppressed indoors.
 
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SilentStalkr

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AR is best utilized as a 200-300 yard and in weapon. Can it be used past that effectively? Sure, with the right Ammo. However, if you are engaging targets consistently beyond that you really need to have a two weapon set up. One the AR and the other the purpose built tool for longer shots. Yes, it kind of sucks to carry two systems. One alternative is to have a two man team. One carry the AR and the other something better suited for longer range targets, both with sidearms of course. Where I live you’d never engage any target past 200 to 400 yds max anyways. 90% of that probably 200yds or less in which case pretty much any flavor of AR and ammo will work fine. Most of its about shot placement anyways. Shoot in the right spots and they’ll go down regardless. I wouldn’t stress too much about Ammo. However, I can tell you 77 grain razorcore is some nasty stuff.
 
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MtnCreek

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You wont get the advantage of the 77g out of the short barrel; shortest I'd go is 16 with 77g.

Plus remember, M193 needs to be at 1700fps at a minimum on impact for it to reliably fragment. 77g design is different and relies more on the yaw/tumble/hydro static wound channel as far as terminal ballistics.

That's why I'm saying either run 5.56 in a shorter gun because 90% of engagements are at less than 200 yards (you wont be under 1700fps until I think somewhere around 300+ with an 11.5) and CQB with a 20" A2 just plain sucks. The extra length just isn't worth it to me. Or, if you're going to need some distance yet want to not paint yourself in the corner with a bolt gun or a heavier SASS, the 16" Mk12ModH is truly a do it all gun with the 77g.

Otherwise, if you think you're going to be shooting some decent distances consistently, you need something completely different than the 5.56.
Where are you getting 1700fps for fragmentation? I thought it was more like 2500.
 

Nik H

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I am switching to 20 inch barrels on my new builds , I only load the 77gr rounds in virgin LC now, 23.5 8208 pushing them.
I like 18" as a happy medium. Get great performance with 77 grain OTM...either LC Mk262 or BH...

I really need to start reloading.....I have put it off for a long time
 
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Nik H

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You 2 are on opposite ends of the spectrum. 77gr isn't necessarily for QCB work, nor are 20 inch barrels. 55gr and 11 inch barrels not for 500 yard engagements.
Best to have some of both, you know have all bases covered.
Bingo!!!

I have several ARs in different configurations (Barrel length and different calibers - I am a fan of both 5.56 and 6.8 SPC).

All have different use cases but the beauty of the AR platform is the commonality of parts.
 

Seed tick

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Hey DS,
First thanks for the heads up on the ammo. Question I have always used federal 5.56 Xm 193 ok accuracy. This is much better? Accuracy wise?
 

deersniper

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Hey DS,
First thanks for the heads up on the ammo. Question I have always used federal 5.56 Xm 193 ok accuracy. This is much better? Accuracy wise?
I'm getting much better accuracy with the hornady frontier offering. The federal is crap lately. Had much better accuracy with the Malaysian m193 that used to be plentiful also.

Not sure why the federal isn't accurate. The ae 50 grain tipped varmint is super accurate for the price. Probably why it is always out of stock
 
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SilentStalkr

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I’ve always had good luck with Hornady products. Keep in mind the twist as well. Most of my ARs are 1/7 twist and 55-62 grains just don’t shoot worth shit out of them when compared to 69 and 77 grain. On the flip side my 1/9 twist HBar loves 55 grain.
 
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The DFC

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Great deals-I have a hard time believing there will ever be a better time for buying ammo, guns, and parts etc.


BTW-the last Federal Rebate I took advantage of-the Fill the Freezer one-I ended up not getting a check like I was used to but rather a Master Card in the amount of $50 which I thought was pretty lame. ymmv.
 

deersniper

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Great deals-I have a hard time believing there will ever be a better time for buying ammo, guns, and parts etc.


BTW-the last Federal Rebate I took advantage of-the Fill the Freezer one-I ended up not getting a check like I was used to but rather a Master Card in the amount of $50 which I thought was pretty lame. ymmv.
I hate rebate programs. Federal stiffed me on the free Armageddon ammo bag and shirt deal a while ago. but I've given those prepaid cards to my bank and they are able to deposit them.
 
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TheGerman

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Based on that, looks more like 2600+.
I'll admit when I'm wrong and yeah it does. I've been trying to look up where this magical 1700 number that has come up for me for 15+ years came from. This is bothering me now lol

From the picture seems 2500 and up in gelatin.
 
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1J04

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Ya, after snagging some of that Federal Black Box .22 and .223 I'm curious to see if and when they get the rebate to me and in what form........
 
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deersniper

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77tmk is what you seek for father ranges. Supposed to fragment down to 2000fps. The Speer 64gr would be another good choice
image.jpgimage.jpg
 
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The DFC

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I hate rebate programs. Federal stiffed me on the free Armageddon ammo bag and shirt deal a while ago. but I've given those prepaid cards to my bank and they are able to deposit them.

Great idea-never thought of that.

The Master Card I got I had to activate on the phone-which took 2 days-and once it was activated there were restrictions like I couldn't use it to pay at the pump and other small inconveniences.
 

TheGerman

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77tmk is what you seek for father ranges. Supposed to fragment down to 2000fps. The Speer 64gr would be another good choice
View attachment 6995153View attachment 6995154
The TMK is what I load for all of the MK12’s I have. Managed to get lucky and find a load that worked for all of them and could standardize one 77g round.

For carbines, 193 is the way to go for 250 and under. It’s about rounds on target/rounds out. We re looking at this from a Defense/engagement standpoint where you will be using quite a bit of ammo at a time.

Remember, even without the reliable fragmentation, CNS hit still does the job, so don’t look at 193 with a go/no go based solely on the velocity.

For the hell of it though, I’m going to see how my MK12 TMK load works with my 11.5 CQB as far as velocity and recoil impulse.
 
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MK20

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M855A1 is a hell of a good round too and it is optimized for shorter barrels.
 

MtnCreek

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The TMK is what I load for all of the MK12’s I have. Managed to get lucky and find a load that worked for all of them and could standardize one 77g round.

For carbines, 193 is the way to go for 250 and under. It’s about rounds on target/rounds out. We re looking at this from a Defense/engagement standpoint where you will be using quite a bit of ammo at a time.

Remember, even without the reliable fragmentation, CNS hit still does the job, so don’t look at 193 with a go/no go based solely on the velocity.

For the hell of it though, I’m going to see how my MK12 TMK load works with my 11.5 CQB as far as velocity and recoil impulse.
If you're willing to load, may want to look into hornady's 55gr sp. I've been meaning to, but always end up ordering FMJ out of habit. The horn 55 FMJ shoots better than any other FMJ I've loaded and is cheap. Last I checked, case (6k) price on the sp was the same as FMJ.

You've talked a little about a shooting or training business of some sort. If you have a formal business w/ business license, contact BHSS (was the parent co of black hills ammo). Good pricing on bulk components.
 

ArmyJerry

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what is this magical load you speak of? I have thousands of TMK's I use for my bolt only.

The TMK is what I load for all of the MK12’s I have. Managed to get lucky and find a load that worked for all of them and could standardize one 77g round.

For carbines, 193 is the way to go for 250 and under. It’s about rounds on target/rounds out. We re looking at this from a Defense/engagement standpoint where you will be using quite a bit of ammo at a time.

Remember, even without the reliable fragmentation, CNS hit still does the job, so don’t look at 193 with a go/no go based solely on the velocity.

For the hell of it though, I’m going to see how my MK12 TMK load works with my 11.5 CQB as far as velocity and recoil impulse.
 

TheGerman

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Anyone know what the expansion velocity 'floor' of the Nosler 77 and the Sierra TMK are?

According to some research, the 77 Nosler has the thinner jacket and "the terminal ballistic properties of the 77 grain Nosler bullet loaded to 5.56mm velocities rival that of the Hornady 75 grain 5.56mm TAP load".

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Nosler_77_Grain_Custom_Competition___Velocity__Accuracy_and_Terminal_Ballistics/16-688776/

There's a picture of the penetration/fragmentation of it hitting at 2734 (which is basically the MV); how can this be translated at how it expands/performs at distances and where/how do you figure out what we did with M193 in that, its fragmentation property ends at around 2500. Where would the 77g Nosler's floor be?

Found this: looks like if I'm reading the fragmentation chart right, its right around 2050ish: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest6/Test6.htm
 
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