Burris XTR3!!!

D_TROS

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Ditto for me. In fact, I went with the XTR2 2 years ago specifically BECAUSE of the turret feel (and other specs. They feel almost exactly like my Gen 1 ATACR 5-25.
I wasnt a huge fan of the XTR2 clicks when compared to TT or S&B or Minox. For what they were, I was very impressed tho, workable, repeatable clicks. I really LOVED the old steiner clicks everyone claimed were "mushy". I nvr understood the noise made about clicks. Does it track?? boom done.

The new knobs are larger dia and the tenth spacing is further apart, both of which I strongly pushed for which made for great knobs. Im not joking when I say that using this scope at a match with over 400 rounds down range in the last couple weeks, I have a new favorite knob. My old favorite was the GenII Razor. XTR3 knobs are very close to those in every regard from feel to spacing EXCEPT for my favorite aspect of the XTR3 knobs, the oscillating tick marks Absolutely love them.


To be fair, until we see production units we really can not say anything authoritative about image quality. The prototypes looked really good. As I said, I think they will give anything under $2k a run for their money and maybe more.

....
That's how I feel. Don't want to say the glass is the new epic savior of the sub $2k world, but it def has a different feel and "glow" if you will. I cant put my finger on it. Like I said in my 3-oh-H8 thread, maybe its the FOV making it brighter, combined with better glass is like a whole new world. haha.

Cool to see the tree retc shown. I cant wait to shoot it and see how it compares to my Minox MR4. There are some really cool features in that retc.


Regards,
DT
 

Subwrx300

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It is a thoroughly modern reticle. I think a 20 mrad tree is a little excessive, but it is better than it going all the way down to the edge of the image.




That is awesome! I mocked up a NF MOAR reticle that used similar open space to allow subtensions to .5 MOA. Can't wait to see the moa version!

There version will be awesome if similar to the mil version.
 
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lte82

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You and I have different experience with XTR2 turrets. The ones I have tried had nice tactile feel.

ILya
I had three of the 4-20's and still own a 2-10. Not disagreeing the clicks aren't tactile, but the tacticle click / turret rotation drag ratio is much lower than say a Schmidt, Razor 2, Tangent, etc. Reminds me more of a SWFA 5-20, or the older Steiners. I guess I wish the turret drag was less, and the detents were heavier.
 

Birddog6424

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Nice, they've let the cat out of the bag on the new reticle. I guess SCR2 is the official name.

I know reticles are very personal preference driven, but this hits on all cylinders for me. I love the SCR with its .2 graduations on all lines. I really like the interrupted lines on the grid to open it up and give it a less cluttered look. And I like the .5 mil cross in between each 1 mil subtension line in the grid. And that each line is numbered.

In short, it's extremely detailed without looking cluttered. That detail is important to me. If there is one thing I've learned in using holdovers, it's that there is a lot of open space that opens up margin for error on some of these tree type reticles. The more references you have to an exact correlation of where you need to be holding, the more accurate it is.

Thanks for the pics Ilya!!
 

Subwrx300

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The cool part about the open grid subtensions is that you can actually hold down to .05 mil. The smaller gap means that hash is .2, edge of hash is .15 and center of gap is .1 mil. Very nice for milling target size and/or precise wind holds.
 
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wjm308

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I don't see it unreasonable for a brand new product to be excluded from the discount programme.
If the scope is as good as they say it is they will likely struggle to meet demand without any form of discount.

It'll likely be included once the initial hype and demand has died down, which is understandable.
I didn't say it was unreasonable, I said it was unfortunate, very different words in this context. I understand why Burris would choose to do so, like Birddog said they will most likely sell out at Shot Show for the year. This is pretty much what happened with the AMG a few years ago and the XTR III has the "potential" to be the next coming of the AMG - true it is not fully made in the USA but nice that Colorado has a big part in assembly and it may not have quite the IQ of the AMG, but for its price point and rumored quality, it should be highly sought after for what it is.
 

wjm308

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It is a thoroughly modern reticle. I think a 20 mrad tree is a little excessive, but it is better than it going all the way down to the edge of the image.




Thank you for sharing these ILya. I think Christmas tree fans will like it, I wish they would have opted for a floating center dot but the floating cross is so tiny it will probably act like a dot. I also like the tapered thick outer stadia reminiscent of March's reticle, it draws the eye toward the center when zoomed out. The larger hash marks between 4/5 mils on the horizontal remind me of the DEV-L from Sig, I'm assuming the size/height of those may have some ranging qualities to them? My favorite reticle right now is the MR4 and while I like the SKMR3 I don't like the solid tree lines, the MR4 uses dots which make it very unobtrusive, this SCR2 seems to be a combo of that and while it's not dots its small crosses which should prove to not be as intrusive as a full line filling up the space. Nicely done Burris. What's interesting is that Steiner was the first to release the SCR reticle which trickled down quickly into the Burris line, and now Burris is the first to turn it into a Christmas tree and I imagine it will trickle up to Steiner eventually.
 
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GeoffatBurris

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Hello everyone.
I had a great visit with Ilya yesterday. But am very glad our engineering director was there to answer his questions. The dude makes me feel like a marketing dummy. Which, you know, is true, but I still prefer to avoid feeling that way....

Still working on getting official published subtension info for SCR2 reticle. We just have not released it yet. Sky's saying next week at earliest.

On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today :) ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.

We've got a few other items for SHOT, if you're going! I'm honestly pysched for the new PEPR mount with the Signature ring inserts. I know it's not as intereting as new reticles and scopes, but we sell a LOT of PEPR mounts, and this one will be very nice.

I do not get the tme to check in here very often, but you can reach me at webteam@burrisoptics.com. Cheers!
 

Genin

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On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today :) ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.
!
I am grateful that your company does give us a mil discount so you won’t hear any complaints from me. I believe most of us understand and think the extra wait is worth the awesome savings we get through those programs
 

Birddog6424

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The cool part about the open grid subtensions is that you can actually hold down to .05 mil. The smaller gap means that hash is .2, edge of hash is .15 and center of gap is .1 mil. Very nice for milling target size and/or precise wind holds.

Glad to see someone picked that up. ;)

When they release the grid with measurements for all the lines and gaps, folks will see how you can use those lines to be pretty damn precise. As well as using the lengthened subtensions on the windage line.
 
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koshkin

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Hello everyone.
I had a great visit with Ilya yesterday. But am very glad our engineering director was there to answer his questions. The dude makes me feel like a marketing dummy. Which, you know, is true, but I still prefer to avoid feeling that way....

Still working on getting official published subtension info for SCR2 reticle. We just have not released it yet. Sky's saying next week at earliest.

On brand new scopes hitting the discount/group buy programs: yes, we need to get the product out to "regular" retailers before we backfill into discounted programs like First Responder and Experticity/Voice (or whatever the name is today :) ). Timing just depends on supply and demand.

We've got a few other items for SHOT, if you're going! I'm honestly pysched for the new PEPR mount with the Signature ring inserts. I know it's not as intereting as new reticles and scopes, but we sell a LOT of PEPR mounts, and this one will be very nice.

I do not get the tme to check in here very often, but you can reach me at webteam@burrisoptics.com. Cheers!

It was good to catch up with Geoff and other Burris/Steiner folks I met with.

As a general warning: while Geoff tries very hard to come off as a country bumpkin, I would not be giving those proclamations too much credence.

PEPR mount with inserts? You'd think that might be something you'd consider showing me...

ILya
 
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Birddog6424

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I have to say, on forums like this one, the PEPR doesn't get a lot of credit. But I have a couple of them, one on a short barreled AR, and one on a 20" 6.5 Grendel that I hunt with and shoot to 900 and a 1000 yards with regularity. And both of those mounts have treated me great.

The Signature Series rings with the inserts have a very good reputation. A marriage of those two techs should make for a pretty damn good mount.

 

BytorJr

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@Basher, you took the words right out of my mouth. This looks very good and if the glass is good I'm heavily leaning this vs the new NF myself. Competition is great isn't it!!!
 
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winniedonkey

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Very excited for this scope. I do enjoy my 4x20 and these new offering look awesome. Lets not forget something shooting friends, we have done a ton as shooters to help push the market/smart engineers to create better and better gear at liveable prices. I think we all deserve a beer or 12.
 

beetroot

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I am by no means an expert, but I'm not super keen on the reticle.

Perhaps folk with more experience can explain why they have gone for crosses rather than dots like most other tree reticles uses?
I would've thought dots would be nicer to use.
Also whats up with the lengths of the hashes on the horizontal between 4 and 5 mil? I assume they have a specific purpose.

I feel like the Nightforce Mil-XT is more inline with what I'd want from the tree reticle.
 

Subwrx300

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I am by no means an expert, but I'm not super keen on the reticle.

Perhaps folk with more experience can explain why they have gone for crosses rather than dots like most other tree reticles uses?
I would've thought dots would be nicer to use.
Also whats up with the lengths of the hashes on the horizontal between 4 and 5 mil? I assume they have a specific purpose.

I feel like the Nightforce Mil-XT is more inline with what I'd want from the tree reticle.
I can't speak to the entire reticle layout/design, but the open hash tree grid allows better visibility and better precision (see my post above discussing Benning able to hold to .05 mil precisely. Given the overall look with the center cross hair and open hash grid, I'd say it looks pretty dam useful.

The increasing lines on right and left side of reticle are .1 mil target size line's for UKD shooting/ estimating Target size.

I guess I'm confused how the Mil XT is substantially different from this (or vice versa) because both use .2 lines, 1 mil grid spacing, and alternating hashes on the main crosshair.

The hash vs dots is debatable but this is a good look, IMO. It's believe it's more of a precision issue: do you want a course hold or a fine hold?

To each their own. I'd love to have this reticle in any scope.
 

sleeplz

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Whatsup with the mount with "inserts"? What is the advantage of having inserts instead of using a precision milled mount that is measured for the tube diameter?
 
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gconnoyer

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Really excited for these. The scopes look great, reticle looks great, and the ONLY thing ever wrong with the 2 was the terrible glass.

If these are built like the 2s, mechanically, there wont be much to compete at the price point
 
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Stickshift

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Whatsup with the mount with "inserts"? What is the advantage of having inserts instead of using a precision milled mount that is measured for the tube diameter?
The inserts allow you to add or subtract MOA cant without having to buy a new rail or mount. The feature is big with rimfire guys who run against the limit of their scope's elevation. I'm not sure how much use it has beyond the rimfire market though.
 

MarinePMI

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The inserts allow you to add or subtract MOA cant without having to buy a new rail or mount. The feature is big with rimfire guys who run against the limit of their scope's elevation. I'm not sure how much use it has beyond the rimfire market though.
If my suspicions are correct, than the inserts would also allow you to transition from 30mm, 34mm, 35mm and 36mm tube scopes with just insert changes, versus buying a whole new mount. Or at least, I hope someone thought about that on this new design....
 

Stickshift

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If my suspicions are correct, than the inserts would also allow you to transition from 30mm, 34mm, 35mm and 36mm tube scopes with just insert changes, versus buying a whole new mount. Or at least, I hope someone thought about that on this new design....
That didn't even occur to me, but yes, it would definitely be another use for the insert design. Combine that with the ability to add and subtract MOA, and you should have a very, very flexible system.
 

Birddog6424

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The Burris Signature series rings are a very successful product with an excellent reputation. They aren't gimmicky at all.

As pointed out above, the inserts allow you to adjust the MoA cant without buying a new base.

For an AR platform mount that doesn't come with any cant at all on the receiver, that could be extremely useful. You wouldnt have to buy a set specific cant mount. You could get this new PEPR and set it to what you want.

A perfect example of how useful they can be is with a custom rifle I built. It's a 300 Norma magnum on a Defiance Deviant action. So I had to go long action, and I wanted the .75 oversized bolt to get a beefier larger boltface. But that action only came with the integrated 20 MoA top rail. And I wanted 30 MoA.

So I bought the Burris Signature Series rings, and added another 10 MoA. It's a very useful design.
 

MarinePMI

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That didn't even occur to me, but yes, it would definitely be another use for the insert design. Combine that with the ability to add and subtract MOA, and you should have a very, very flexible system.
I suppose that's why the company I work for, keeps me employed in the R&D department...(or as I call it "the Engineering Arts & Crafts department".) :D
 
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D_TROS

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Saves the company costs and makes a gimmicky product for your Big Box Store shooter.
Saves cost? you kidding rite? How in your mind do you see the extra machining for the inserts saving money or supplying the different inserts cheaper??
And gimmicky? when a company comes out with innovative products you shit on it without even see/using said product?

The insert mounts are a life saver when you need extra elevation or even when you need to center an optic to the side (both of which Ive done granted usually for hunting rifles or rimfire... And nobody makes an affordable one piece base so if they keep the price close to the original perpr mount, this could be a viable option for AR shooters.


The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.


Regards,
DT
 
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bigdaddydmd

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The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.
As do I. It would make things much easier to have a mount with a handful of inserts available that I can play around with cant and don't have to worry about trying to find 30mm, 34, 35mm rings depending on which scope I am trying to mount.
 

gconnoyer

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Saves cost? you kidding rite? How in your mind do you see the extra machining for the inserts saving money or supplying the different inserts cheaper??
And gimmicky? when a company comes out with innovative products you shit on it without even see/using said product?

The insert mounts are a life saver when you need extra elevation or even when you need to center an optic to the side (both of which Ive done granted usually for hunting rifles or rimfire... And nobody makes an affordable one piece base so if they keep the price close to the original perpr mount, this could be a viable option for AR shooters.


The idea of them coming with different size inserts for all the scope tube diameters is also brilliant...I hope they do this also.


Regards,
DT
They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.
 

high right

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They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.
That's why alot of bench rest guys use em, cause their cheap and really aren't concerned with accuracy and repeatability.
 

D_TROS

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They dont have to write and run different programs, redesign, repackage, relabel, or stock/produce/ship multiple types of that item.
How can that not drop cost? Same reason auto makers use a TON of the same parts in cars.

Have you used them?
They arent metal, they arent perfectly machined, nor do they hold their shape.
How accurate and consistent can that possibly be?

Thats why I call that a universal, Savage Axis, walmart special, long range shooter, big box store, gimmick.
Sure they have their place like you said, rimfire, hunting rifle with an optic/mount so messed up you cant get a zero. But not on a precision rifle/optic combo.

Actually they will have to write new programs, redesign, repackage, relabel etc. This is a whole new product as far as I know. Its a one piece base. The older rings are 2 piece and came in a super nice hard plastic case with inserts. This mount wont fit in the old box more than likely. The only thing they can reuse is the inserts. THe old pepr came in a plastic wrapper.

I have used them. Im confused what isn't metal? The plastic inserts arnt, the rings are...? I have heard mixed reviews about some coming loose but I am convinced its due to improper set up. If you don't put the right inserts together, it wont hold the scope tight, let alone the torq specs that most do not own a torq wrench (match the proper pair of inserts).

The beauty of the design is the rings don't have to be machined to high tolerances. The plastic inserts allow lee way as well as stress relief on the scope. As to accuracy and consistency, once clamped down, I have never had a problem or have a scope shift. That being said, I use Hawkins rings on my comp rifles. Whole nother world.

My rimfire currently has a set. It is extremely accurate and the zero nvr shifts. I had +20 moa inserts in but with a 30 moa base I couldn't get a 50 yd zero so had to back down to +15 moa inserts... My only gripe is the height. Due to the inserts, they can only go so low. This is the reason I havnt used on more rifles.

I have 2 different one piece bases for my precision AR rifles. An old pepr that I have won several matches with and the new Geiselle one. That thing even you would not call gimmicky...but it also costs $400. But youre screwed if you want extra ele, hence the reason the excitement for the new insert mount. Shoot who knows, maybe Burris even up the specs and tolerances and release a truly precise one piece mount?? I admittingly haven't seen it...

BUT, if the new perpr mount comes out and it doesn't hold up to std, I will be next to you saying its gimmicky. So far tho, they fill a very big hole in scope rings for the majority of rifle owners. Gimmicy for precision bolt rifles? Ya maybe. Gimmicky for people that need LR capabilities and rimfire and factory rifles or are afraid to scratch their scops? absolutely not.


Regrads,
DT
 
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beetroot

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The signature rings with inserts are great.
I used them on my CZ 452 and they allowed me to cant the scope enough that the bolt could clean the scope eyepiece with low rings, by adding heigth is the back and removing it from the front ring I'm just able to use low rings and keep the scope mounted nice an low.

It they had a feature to adapter the rings from 36mm, 35mm and 34mm I'd be buying a pair, as more manufactures seem to be straying from the 34mm "standard".
 

beetroot

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I can't speak to the entire reticle layout/design, but the open hash tree grid allows better visibility and better precision (see my post above discussing Benning able to hold to .05 mil precisely. Given the overall look with the center cross hair and open hash grid, I'd say it looks pretty dam useful.

The increasing lines on right and left side of reticle are .1 mil target size line's for UKD shooting/ estimating Target size.

I guess I'm confused how the Mil XT is substantially different from this (or vice versa) because both use .2 lines, 1 mil grid spacing, and alternating hashes on the main crosshair.

The hash vs dots is debatable but this is a good look, IMO. It's believe it's more of a precision issue: do you want a course hold or a fine hold?

To each their own. I'd love to have this reticle in any scope.
The main difference I see is the Mil-XT has dots opposed to crosses on the tree, but as you explained it as an open grid rather than a whole bunch of crosses it makes more sense now.

I would've though a centre dot would be more precise that the centre cross, but until we get the sub tensions it's impossible to know how big it'll compare to other reticle designs.
 

generalzip

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That center cross looks like its .1x.1 mils. At any magnification below max it will probably look very similar to a dot. I actually prefer an open center like on the EBR-C reticles with a .2 hash next to it similar to the SKMR3
 
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steve123

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That's why alot of bench rest guys use em, cause their cheap and really aren't concerned with accuracy and repeatability.
Another nice thing about those Signature inserts, they grip the scope well, even to the point of compressing into the finish since they are more malleable than metal, and I've never had a damaged tube or the finish on the tube using them.

I have had damaged tubes with some popular brands of rings with heavy recoiling rifles, I'd tighten to spec, the scope would slip and damage the finish, so I'd tighten harder and the tube got squeezed on a few of those scopes. Well, I found ARC rings thankfully. But I've had many pairs of 1" and a few 30mm sets of Burris Sig rings, which were a life saver when the mounting holes were off and the scope didn't have much windage travel.
 
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adamjma

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I have a set of signature rings. They are great. In addition to fine tuning the vertical cant (so you can use MORE/ALL of the adjustment range of your scope, or keep all the usual adjustments in the sweet spot near the centre of the tracking range) they also let you cant left or right to accommodate any weirdness in things. Most of us with nice rifles don't need that, but buddy with a wonky rifle might.

Don't knock what you don't know.
 

wjm308

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That center cross looks like its .1x.1 mils. At any magnification below max it will probably look very similar to a dot. I actually prefer an open center like on the EBR-C reticles with a .2 hash next to it similar to the SKMR3
That was my assessment as well, we'll have to wait until the official specs come out, but it look like .1 mil width which means .05 mil to each side of the center hash.
 

Birddog6424

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The main difference I see is the Mil-XT has dots opposed to crosses on the tree, but as you explained it as an open grid rather than a whole bunch of crosses it makes more sense now.

I would've though a centre dot would be more precise that the centre cross, but until we get the sub tensions it's impossible to know how big it'll compare to other reticle designs.
And here's where that personal preference thing comes in to play. I'm not a fan of the dots. I just dont like the looks of them. I dont mind the center dot on the H591, but the only time I really use it is at 100 yards. And I dont mind the very small floating cross of the SCR either.

When shooting at range I'm always on a windage subtension. Theres no such thing as no wind here in Idaho.

But dots or lines, they all work the same. I see little practical difference between the Mil-XT and SCR2. Both are excellent, detailed reticles.
 

Birddog6424

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I’m not a huge Christmas tree reticle fan, but I’d consider buying a fixed 10/12x like the XTR III (SCR or SCR2). Looks to have better turrets (10mil/rev), zero stop, and form factor than the SWFA 10x42 HD.

@GeoffatBurris Will the original SCR be in the XTR III?
I'm not Geoff, but I can field this..

Yes, initially the first production run will be using the SCR, and I suspect they will continue to offer it even after the SCR2 goes live. The SCR2 will be following asap. Apparently it will clear patenting red tape within the next week or so. And I'm sure they will get it into production.

Are we still thinking mid-2019 for availability?
These are in production in Greeley as we speak. Scopes will be going out to vendors January or February of 2019.

Releasing later in 2019 will be the 5.5-30x56, the SCR2 reticle, and illuminated versions.
 
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MarkLeupold

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I hope someone sends it up the chain. I’ve been waiting for years for SWFA to update Their stuff.... why not XTR?
It would be an awesome starter scope or backup. Super simple and bombproof, relatively cheap, carrying high-quality glass and coatings, a well designed reticle (maybe with thickness optimized for 10/12x). It's basically what SWFA should be in the 21st Century. I think it would be a pretty popular design.