Budget Savage pattern barrels?

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#1
Rack grade Stainless and/or melonited barrels that typically shoot MOA can be found from several sources for $150-250 for the AR15 and the AR10 platform. Larue, WOA, ARP & Faxon to name a few.

Why are there not any similar off the shelf options available for the Savage rifles and Savage thread pattern aftermarket actions in the same $150-250 price range?

6.5 Creedmoor, .308, .223, etc
Standard lengths, say 18"-24"
Melonite or stainless steel
Threaded muzzles

Is there just not enough demand? I would think there as are thousands more Savage model 10 rifles out there compared to the AR10 and yet I can go to several websites right now and order a 6mm or 6.5mm Creedmoor barrel for an AR10 and have it in my hands the next week.
 
Last edited:
Mar 26, 2006
328
109
43
#2
Rack grade Stainless and/or melonited barrels that typically shoot MOA can be found from several sources for $150-250 for the AR15 platform. WOA, ARP & Faxon to name a few.

Why are there not any similar off the shelf options available for the Savage rifles and Savage thread pattern aftermarket actions in the same $150-250 price range?

6.5 Creedmoor, .308, .223, etc
Standard lengths, say 18"-24"
Melonite or stainless steel
Threaded muzzles

Is there just not enough demand?
EABCO sells them for $260. Looks around there are a couple others in that range.

But yes, demand is quite different. ~95% of all ARs are 223, fewer barrel lengths and twists in wide use. Savage prefits people generally want a greater variety of chambers, twists, calibers, contours, and lengths so inventory is more expensive.
 
Feb 27, 2017
91
24
18
#4
I agree with spaniel, economies of scale. If you setup your shop and you're just churning out carbine barrels to the same spec all month the buyer doesn't have to pay for as much re-tooling/downtime. The market could be ripe for somebody to mass produce small shank 24 inch 6.5 barrels. Who knows.

Savage patter barrels right now fit (broadly) into two categories.

New and use take-offs (ebay, forums,NSS usually has some new ones)
Definitely some deals to be had there if you know what you're looking for and you're willing to roll some dice. I'd be hard pressed to think a sporter .308 barrel on ebay for $80 is shot out, but a used .243 may bring some pause.

Made to order (Starts with Criterion at $300 and goes up from there to cut rifle blank prefits from bugnuts, PVA etc)

Definitely a gray zone in between. Criterion is probably the closest to what you're looking for, but even then they probably don't make the volume of one type of barrel to meet that price point. It would be interesting to see them push a product line with minimal options. Think Grayboe stocks, you can get the McMillian pattern stock but you only have choice of two inlets, two bottom metals, and a few colors. For now the closest you can get is that NSS stocks 26 inch varmint barrels in 6.5 (just ordered one this week). I'd assume they have a standing order and are buying at a reasonable quantity.

But anyway, with more actions coming out to take small shank barrels and more people moving that way (barrel nuts for Howa, tikka, etc, barloc coming out) you may see more price point prefits in the next few years. Competition is great like that.
 
Mar 26, 2006
328
109
43
#5
They do, no muzzle threads though. That would be an additional added expense.
Muzzle threads weren't in the original question. Once again, more customization, expect more expense. Muzzle threads are pretty much standard on off-the-shelf AR barrels. They are a relatively rare request on a Savage prefit.

If you are after economy, there are a LOT of takeoff factory Savage barrels on the market. I shot most of mine before I took them off and they were .5-.75 MOA with handloads. Buy one of those cheap and have it threaded and there you go. You could buy one, pay for the threading, and still be within your quoted price range. I gave a 243 away to a buddy because it wasn't worth the effort to sell and ship it. I still have 300WSM and 22-250 barrels I'd sell.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#6
I'm going to fire off some emails to current AR barrel makers and see if any of them are interested in adding such a product. The Savage barrels should be even easier to make. No gas port or barrel extensions to time.

I think the demand is there. If you can buy a new Savage model 10 for $300, you should be able to replace the barrel for around that same price, perhaps even less.

Example

https://ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-65-creedmoor-midlength-fluted-ss-premium-barrel.html
 
Last edited:

demolitionman

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 26, 2013
1,115
350
83
Ohio
#7
You can get ER Shaw prefit barrels from EArthrubrown company for like 200 bucks on certain calibers even on varmint profile. I've never shot them but since you asked..... they seem as cheap as one can find for a prefit savage.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#8
You can get ER Shaw prefit barrels from EArthrubrown company for like 200 bucks on certain calibers even on varmint profile. I've never shot them but since you asked..... they seem as cheap as one can find for a prefit savage.
True. Most of the barrels are out of stock though. No threaded muzzles and no Creedmoor option, no fast twist .223. There was a 1:10 .308 option, but it's not in stock.

It just seems like there is a hole in the market that needs filled.

I'm not asking what cheap options are available now.

I'm asking if pre-fit Savage barrels in the $250-$300 would interest people who frequent this site.

Ready to go barrels with threaded muzzles and a nice melonited finish with a MOA guarantee for $ 250-$300.

Is there demand?

Right now our main options are Criterion @ $400 once you add the cost of threading the muzzlr. Bare stainless, no coating. Proof research is another option, but closer to $500 for the stainless steel barrels. Availability seems limited on the Proof.
 
Last edited:

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#9
Proof Research is one company where the Savage pre-fit is the cheap option compared to an LR308 or gunsmith blank (once you pay for someone to thread and chamber).

It's expensive compared to a steel barrel but if you value light weight or get more FPS because you can go with a longer barrel for the same weight, the price doesn't look too bad.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#10
Proof Research is one company where the Savage pre-fit is the cheap option compared to an LR308 or gunsmith blank (once you pay for someone to thread and chamber).

It's expensive compared to a steel barrel but if you value light weight or get more FPS because you can go with a longer barrel for the same weight, the price doesn't look too bad.
Proof Research also has stainless barrels that can be had for about half of what their carbon fiber barrels cost.

Here's a 6mm Creedmoor for $479

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...ist-4-groove-24-5-8-24-thread-stainless-steel
 

XLR308

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 22, 2018
920
592
93
Grand Junction, Colorado
#11
ARP has done limited runs on melonite Savage pre fits, most likely due to repeated requests.
From a business stand point I dont think it was very lucrative for him but he tries very hard to deliver to his base good products at an attractive price point.
As others have stated tooling and retooling cost drive the price up and everyone has a different idea of what their ideal barrel length, profile, fluted, no fluting and muzzle threads are. Add to that melonite treated parts that dont play nice with tooling after the fact.
 

R_Swanson

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 20, 2017
104
14
18
#12
Dude, you really think there is going to be as much demand for a Savage prefit as their is an AR15 or even an AR10? You're crazy. There are ~483k members at AR15.com. Thats one AR forum. There are other popular ones as you know.

AR's also lend themselves to the DIY'er that is building them.

There are ~121k members here. A LOT of whom dont shoot Savage. In fact I would say Savage shooters are a distinct minority.

SavageShooters only has ~24k members.

Zero chance of what you are proposing happening.


If you want to sell them on something, start with a cheap remage barrel setup. Hell of a lot more remingtons out there, and swappable barrels is where the industry is moving, at least the non-OEM's.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#13
If you're looking for a Savage pre-fit that shoots MOA or better, I recommend just buying barrels that people have taken off of Savage actions and are selling. A lot of the guys on some Savage forums buy up a bunch of 12FV's when they go on sale and then sell of the barrels from them on their forums for an inexpensive price, which sounds like what you're looking for.

I'd absolutely buy a Savage pre-fit for $250-300, and I actually fully intend to for my next build (though I'll be spending a bit more than that to get it threaded). That said, I'd only buy it after enough other people acted as guinea pigs to see whether or not they actually shot well (I have no such concerns with the Criterion pre-fits since plenty of people have shot tiny groups with them).
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#14
Dude, you really think there is going to be as much demand for a Savage prefit as their is an AR15 or even an AR10? You're crazy. There are ~483k members at AR15.com. Thats one AR forum. There are other popular ones as you know.

AR's also lend themselves to the DIY'er that is building them.

There are ~121k members here. A LOT of whom dont shoot Savage. In fact I would say Savage shooters are a distinct minority.

SavageShooters only has ~24k members.

Zero chance of what you are proposing happening.


If you want to sell them on something, start with a cheap remage barrel setup. Hell of a lot more remingtons out there, and swappable barrels is where the industry is moving, at least the non-OEM's.
Alright, Alright.

That's what I needed to hear. The number of people building bolt actions rifles is tiny compared to the AR15 world. Maybe in a decade if these new budget custom actions take off.

I guess I'm just spoiled from starting out with the AR15 platform. Seems like there is a hundred different wildcats barrels available for around the $200 price point. ARP, MDWS, etc.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#19
Bighorn Actions utilize the same predit barrels as Savage. They are the same exact thread and pitch. So there is FAR more demand than what you are indicating here.

DK
People who buy a Bighorn action or other custom actions like that don't want a budget barrel. They want something as accurate as possible. This is reflected in the fact that PVA is having a hard time keeping up with all their pre-fit barrel orders compared to more budget offerings.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#20
Bighorn Actions utilize the same predit barrels as Savage. They are the same exact thread and pitch. So there is FAR more demand than what you are indicating here.

DK
I certainly know that. I'm one of several that got in on the Bighorn Origin preorder. That's what sparked my interest and why I started this thread.

I honestly thought I would have gotten more feedback, but the lack of interest has made it clear that I am in the minority.
 

z71rat

Gunny Sergeant
Mar 12, 2004
3,199
25
48
54
Western Slope, CO
#21
Not as much a minority as you might think. There a BUNCH of shooters that choose Savage actions, and I am one of them.

This forum has always had a bias against Savage rifles. I don’t understand it at all.

DK
 
Likes: Bulldog10
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#22
Not as much a minority as you might think. There a BUNCH of shooters that choose Savage actions, and I am one of them.

This forum has always had a bias against Savage rifles. I don’t understand it at all.

DK
I'm not biased against them, I've got a 12FV that I enjoy using as a beater/loaner gun and a hunting rifle (great varminter too), but I think most of the people who are buying barrels to install themselves on a Savage pattern are people looking for accuracy. Most people who would be interested in cheap replacement barrels (the people who buy the Savage in the first place) don't shoot enough to need a replacement, don't know enough to know they need to replace the barrel ever, or would just take it to a gunsmith since they don't know how to do it themselves.

To be perfectly honest, most people buy a Savage because it's a cheap and accurate gun. The number of people who buy it for the easily changed barrels are in the minority, and I'd be willing to bet that most of the Savage pre-fits sold nowadays are being installed on non-Savage actions.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#23
I think there is a guy in Nevada selling Savage pre-fits on eBay starting in the $200s. So cheaper than Criterion.

One thing that is happening is that switch barrel rifles are becoming more of a thing but a guy wanting a selection of barrels isn't necessarily going to want to spend $300+ each.

These switch barrel setups often use barrel nut style barrels and several custom actions use the Savage small shank thread so there is a market there.

I bought a Savage new take-off barrel for just that reason. I paid over $200 but it is an SR model with a threaded muzzle, 1 in 10" twist and it is fluted. I may try to cast a lead lap so I can hand lap the barrel to smooth out the rifling and hopefully make it a reliable sub-MOA shooter.

Point being, there is a market out there and it's probably less work to make a Savage Pre-fit than an AR barrel (no gas port, no gas block journal, no barrel extension and no barrel extension pin). If someone does it, they should offer a high quality threaded muzzle as a low cost option, some people will bite just for that.

I think another smart move would be to start with batches of popular calibers like .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. I wouldn't bank on selling out a batch of wildcats right away. 6mm Dasher sounds great but not many people will want to buy that from a company without much reputation.
 

GGK

Private
Oct 6, 2013
302
40
28
Toledo, OH
#24
There is a guy doing shouldered big horn/savage prefit barrels for sub $400*(pressed the wrong key and didn't proof read) with Green mountain blanks. Supposedly they are 1/2 moa prefits. I think Padom tried one out IIRC.
 
Last edited:

R_Swanson

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 20, 2017
104
14
18
#25
.
Bighorn Actions utilize the same predit barrels as Savage. They are the same exact thread and pitch. So there is FAR more demand than what you are indicating here.

DK
I doubt it.

Of course theres a market... Theres a market for everything. But IMO there isnt the economies of scale to drive the market as cheap as OP wanted by a bunch of different known manufacturers as he hoped

For example: I'm eyeing an Origin action, but I don't see a good reason to save 100 bucks vs a known commodity like Criterion. Its an 800 dollar action. With everything else I'll be spending on the gun saving 100 on one of the barrels is not really an option for me.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#26
From the outside, markets look small.

I'm buying Savage pre-fit barrels for an ARC Nucleus action. That's a brand new action, only available to pre-order for a few months and judging from the order numbers, I think around 1,500 were pre-ordered, maybe hundreds more. I don't know how many more actions sell with Savage small shank barrel threads but I bet it's another 1,000 or more. I think Nucleus action orders will calm down once ARC starts delivering them in volume but to me that says there is a potential market of 1,500 barrels a year (or possibly many more due to switch barrel) just from new custom actions.

With all of the new interest in PRS and long range target shooting, a Cabellas special Savage with a decent pre-fit barrel and a Boyd's stock is about as cheap of a "precision rifle" as you can get barring a factory freak that shoots 1/2 MOA stock.

That seems like a couple thousand or more barrels for Savage actions.

Then there is the guy who wants to change calibers or thinks his barrel is shot. A barrel in that spot between a Savage take-off and a Criterion in both price and performance would be a seller. I have no idea how to estimate the volume of that.

The point is, markets for gun stuff are larger than you might imagine. Savage Shooters might only have 24,000 users but there are probably 2-3 times as many people who shoot Savage rifles just as much but use other forums or just aren't internet people. No, not all of the old codgers have died off already.

So far, I think we have named 5-6 companies that make Savage pre-fit barrels. There is room for more or for a value line from an existing player.

As the price goes down, the total size of the market will increase by pulling some people off of the fence.

There was a time when AR barrels weren't as available or cheap as they are today. There was a lot of help from Obama but when the prices fell the AR market took off. I think the Savage market could take off if there were reliable 1/2 MOA pre-fit barrels with threaded muzzle for $250. If the pre-fit market is 5,000 barrels a year, I think it could double or triple with a low cost pre-fit barrel option.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#27
There is a guy doing shouldered big horn/savage prefit barrels for sub $300 with Green mountain blanks. Supposedly they are 1/2 moa prefits. I think Padom tried one out IIRC.
Can you find out who is doing this?

I'm almost certainly going with PVA for a 6.5 Creedmoor pre-fit, but this could be a good option for a second or third barrel.

Found it. https://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/Keystone-Custom-Shop.html

So $380 for a shouldered TL3 barrel with muzzle threads.
 
Last edited:
Mar 26, 2006
328
109
43
#28
Ready to go barrels with threaded muzzles and a nice melonited finish with a MOA guarantee for $ 250-$300.
The problem is most people are pretty happy with an MOA AR. If people want an MOA Savage, you just use the factory barrel. Nobody is going to be pleased with an aftermarket barrel that is only MOA. Add this to the list of reasons bolt barrels are more expensive.

The last coated, muzzle threaded barrel I got from McGowen was $477. I think that's reasonable for what I got and the sub .5 MOA accuracy it produces.

The last Krieger AR barrel I got which APPROACHES this level of accuracy was $470...and it wasn't threaded.
 
Oct 11, 2017
60
11
8
#29
I bought two Savage pre-fits off eBay from the gunsmith in Louisiana. He takes Green mountain blanks and turns them into shooters. I have shoot them out to 1224 yards very consistently. Easyly .6 moa barrels. I’m not a member of Savage shooters.com either. I think I paid something like $224 a barrel.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#30
I'm buying Savage pre-fit barrels for an ARC Nucleus action. That's a brand new action, only available to pre-order for a few months and judging from the order numbers, I think around 1,500 were pre-ordered, maybe hundreds more. I don't know how many more actions sell with Savage small shank barrel threads but I bet it's another 1,000 or more. I think Nucleus action orders will calm down once ARC starts delivering them in volume but to me that says there is a potential market of 1,500 barrels a year (or possibly many more due to switch barrel) just from new custom actions.

With all of the new interest in PRS and long range target shooting, a Cabellas special Savage with a decent pre-fit barrel and a Boyd's stock is about as cheap of a "precision rifle" as you can get barring a factory freak that shoots 1/2 MOA stock.

That seems like a couple thousand or more barrels for Savage actions.
Nobody who dropped the cash on a Nucleus action is going to be interested in a low budget barrel for their expensive action. Criterion/Shilen will be the lowest quality barrel that 95% of those people who ordered an action will ever put on their rifle. People who buy $850-1,000 actions are not the same people who buy $200 barrels.

As far as the second one goes, you'll get some of those people to go for the budget barrel offering, but again most of them will want accuracy and will pay a small premium for it.

The reason AR barrels can be so cheap is because there are hundreds of thousands of people buying them (compared to <10,000) and the accuracy requirements are MUCH lower than on a bolt-action rifle. The primary market for a cheap Savage barrel replacement will be Joe Schmo who has the factory Savage and has shot it out over the course of a decade and his buddy/gunsmith told him he should put a new barrel on it. Not a very high volume market.
 
Oct 11, 2017
60
11
8
#31
The pretzel do you think one of the nucleus owners would spin off a comp barrel to run a budget $200 barrel to train with? Let’s say they have $800 comp 6mm creed and they want to save barrel life so they spin on a budget barrel to train with.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#32
Yep, that's why I already have a $200 barrel and an $800 barrel although I don't compete.

There is too much money sunk in to the action, chassis, trigger and optics to start over every time I want to shoot a different caliber and I'm not going to have the same accuracy requirements for every caliber. My .308 barrel just has to be pretty good and with twist suitable for heavier bullets for the day I get a suppressor.

I won't be switching often because zeroing a scope requires a target at my zero range but maybe once or twice a year.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#33
The pretzel do you think one of the nucleus owners would spin off a comp barrel to run a budget $200 barrel to train with? Let’s say they have $800 comp 6mm creed and they want to save barrel life so they spin on a budget barrel to train with.
Most of the people I know who shoot a different caliber for training just have a second gun that's either inexpensive or designed to match their current setup in .223 usually.

There might be a few people who do it, but I wouldn't wager that more than 5-10%, being optimistic, of the people buying the Nucleus would be interested. That said, if enough of them also ordered the BarLoc that could change.

Reason being less than 10% of the PRS guys I know and have talked with have trainer guns, and none of the ones in my area (at least that I know of) swap out barrels on their main gun to practice.

I'm not saying there aren't people who do it or would want to do it, but they're definitely in a small minority. I don't mean to hold you back if this is your business plan that you want to try out, but it's just one that I wouldn't invest in because I think the market would be very small. The people who burn through barrels fast enough to worry about barrel replacement costs are usually the same people who are concerned with accuracy enough to want to avoid a $200 barrel unless it had a proven record of results.

The biggest thing is just the scale, so let's use @flyer 's best case scenario as an example.
- 1,500 people with Nucleus actions
Let's go ahead and assume, then, that a very generous 50% of the people who buy a Nucleus want to cheap out on their barrel. You've got 750 customers, at least 50% of which will never buy a barrel from you again because they don't wear them out. Assuming you make $50 profit per barrel (unlikely, but we're doing best case scenario) you make $37,500 from this and managed to pay 1/2 of a single good machinist's salary.

- Currently there are about 5,000-6,000 people with a free PRS number (with many of them having never attended a match).
Let's assume a generous 25% of this population is new shooters who want to buy your $200 barrel (not counting the Nucleus buyers who already have one). That's ~1,500 barrels. You're still making $50 per barrel, so you made a total of $75,000 and managed to pay the salary of one good machinist (plus you have $37,500 to go towards the pay of your second employee. Let's say you're a Scrooge, so that's all you pay them all year. You're making 2,250 barrels per year at this point (selling 6-7 per day), and you're clearing $450,000 in gross revenue so you definitely need to hire at least 1 assistant and an accountant.

The problem is that the volume isn't there to make up for the very thin margins you would have. In all reality you'd likely be making less that $50 per barrel because good luck getting a barrel blank that you can confidently slap a 1 MOA guarantee on for only $150. AR barrels can be that cheap because of the economy of scale and the lack of precision required by AR shooters.

AR shooters generally don't require sub-MOA accuracy, meaning they can start with cheaper barrel blanks and they can automate the entire process to crank barrels out faster. There are an estimated 15 million AR15's out there today, and they have to change barrels a lot more regularly than people with bolt guns if they want to maintain accuracy (think about it, if .223 barrel life if around 3,000-5,000 rounds that's only 100-150 30-round magazines and each time they go to the range they're shooting at least 3-4 mags through it without even thinking, plus accelerated wear from them heating the barrel). That number also only counts the lowers out there, and there are many people with 1 lower and multiple uppers in different calibers or with different handguards and other accessories.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#35
But imagine if there was a 250 dollar barrel that was accurate. That’s what the focus should be on. A method to do it well cheap.
You invent that method and you'll be the first. Good barrel blanks aren't cheap, even for manufacturers, and neither are good machinists. Even the best machinists will need to occasionally toss out a barrel that got a little bit out of spec for one reason or another, if you want to keep the quality and reputation of your barrels.

Imagining hypotheticals is pretty pointless unless you actually have a method to make it happen. If we're making things up, why not say we can manufacture the barrel for only $100 and sell it for $250? As of right now, no such method exists so the better conversation would be about how you could make it happen, not what to do if it happens.

There is a small market for it, but the market isn't large enough to sustain a company that would have very small margins. At least not yet.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#36
Larue makes a known accurate barrel for the AR15 and sells it for $225. The couple I've had have shot less than MOA with good factory ammo. IMO they are the budget benchmark. Yes they are mass produced, but they shoot. That's a black finished stainless barrel that's had a barrel extension installed and a gas port and gas block dimples drilled. Probably amounting to twice the amount of labor then a Savage barrel.
 
Likes: Bulldog10
Feb 27, 2017
91
24
18
#37
I don't think it's about the labor, it's about the volume to offset the cost of the machines/tooling/setup time. Custom rifles are just that, custom. Hard to get the volume when everyone wants something different. LRI and PVA probably come closest through the use of CNC but even they have to swap out tooling etc.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#38
With that lower price point comes fewer options. Yes, custom rifles are custom. That's why the current prices are what they are. You can order whatever you want. Practically and caliber, length and contour.

I'm not asking if we can do custom for less.

I'm asking if people would purchase a "Standard" barrel for a lower price point. Can we do accurate for less?

Standard lengths, say 18" & 22" or 20" and 26"
Popular calibers, say 6mm & 6.5mm Creedmoor, 224V, ect.
Varmint profile
5/8x24 threads
QPQ treated or Cerakoted
 
Last edited:

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,883
874
113
Central TX
#39
You invent that method and you'll be the first. Good barrel blanks aren't cheap, even for manufacturers, and neither are good machinists. Even the best machinists will need to occasionally toss out a barrel that got a little bit out of spec for one reason or another, if you want to keep the quality and reputation of your barrels.

Imagining hypotheticals is pretty pointless unless you actually have a method to make it happen. If we're making things up, why not say we can manufacture the barrel for only $100 and sell it for $250? As of right now, no such method exists so the better conversation would be about how you could make it happen, not what to do if it happens.

There is a small market for it, but the market isn't large enough to sustain a company that would have very small margins. At least not yet.
No shit Einstein... thats why I said "That’s what the focus should be on. A method to do it well cheap."

So youre saying that just because it doesnt exist yet you think that we should keep pursuing more expensive avenues just because thats how its been done historically? (Obviously a rhetorical question to which I dont expect a reply but I never expected that anyone could ever disagree with my first comment either)
 
Last edited:

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#41
Who said the methods don't exist?

A manufacturer who is tooled up to make AR barrels in a CNC machining center should be able to make Savage pre-fits with essentially the same fixtures and a simplified program which could potentially run faster because of the missing steps.

If they can make money producing AR barrels, they should be able to run occasional batches of Savage pre-fits and make money on that too.
 

hlee

Sergeant
Jul 14, 2012
1,143
273
83
40
TX
#43
The best candidates to try something like this are the companies that already have the machinery and in house expertise to crank out high quality barrels. They have already paid for the machinery and are paying their employees from their current offerings. But, why would they devalue their premier lines with a budget offering? I mean, if I can get "Jim Bob's budget barrel" with a 1 MOA guarantee for $200, would I shell out for a Bartlien or Kreiger with a marginally better guarantee from the same smith? Then, what is the return rate on a budget barrel? If I can make and sell a kreiger barrel line that I know will shoot .3s with a 1 MOA guarantee, I have mostly eliminated workmanship returns. On the other hand, I may have to cross my fingers really tightly and hope the Jim Bobs Budget Barrel line shoots sub MOA. I can still sell it with a 1MOA guarantee, but the return rate will probably be higher- or the reject rate will be higher. Or, I could sell without a guarantee, but allude to "typical results." I don't know- I think it could be done but I wouldn't want to start a company with this as the goal.
 
Dec 17, 2017
227
122
43
Boulder, CO
#44
No shit Einstein... thats why I said "That’s what the focus should be on. A method to do it well cheap."

So youre saying that just because it doesnt exist yet you think that we should keep pursuing more expensive avenues just because thats how its been done historically? (Obviously a rhetorical question to which I dont expect a reply but I never expected that anyone could ever disagree with my first comment either)
I never said that. I said if you did it I'd be very surprised, because you'd have to find a way to make barrel blanks significantly cheaper than they are. Unless you're making your own blanks yourself, you aren't going to be able to make it happen.

Who said the methods don't exist?

A manufacturer who is tooled up to make AR barrels in a CNC machining center should be able to make Savage pre-fits with essentially the same fixtures and a simplified program which could potentially run faster because of the missing steps.

If they can make money producing AR barrels, they should be able to run occasional batches of Savage pre-fits and make money on that too.
Cool. Good thing you ignored literally everything I said. Those AR barrels that they crank out as fast as they can are shit when it comes to accuracy, which is why nobody with a bolt gun would buy a barrel of the same quality. Those AR barrels are also only 3" past half the length (16" vs 26") of many rifle barrels, which cuts down on the cost of the barrel significantly (because the blank is much less expensive).

Finally, and this is the point I've been trying to make for the entire thread, there isn't enough volume in making these barrels for it to make any business sense whatsoever. I pointed out the numbers using your best case scenario. No way in hell would you be able to afford to keep those expensive CNC machines running for long with the low volumes you'd be selling.

1 MOA is considered pretty good for an AR, and anything within 3 MOA is generally acceptable. 1 MOA is considered pretty mediocre to bad for a rifle (especially when it's not a factory barrel but one that you bought as a replacement), and 3 MOA is neigh unthinkable.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#45
You are just making stuff up.

AR barrels are made to 20", 22" and 24" regularly, a Savage pre-fit doesn't have to be 26" either, I just bought a 20" barrel...

There are some very good AR barrels that will shoot sub MOA and cost in the mid $200 range. That includes a few .308s so there is no reason why you can't get a "budget" barrel with accuracy good enough to consider for a custom action.
 
Likes: Bulldog10

Codiekfx400

Sergeant of the Hide
Jan 29, 2018
385
103
43
#46
Ok guys budget barrels equal Criterion and EABCO. Then step up to a keystone accuracy green mountain. All less than $400 how much cheaper of a barrel do you want.
 

flyer

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 25, 2018
1,180
494
83
#47
It's not about how cheap, it's having a range of options.

I have an ARC Nucleus coming with three Barlocs. I want a switch barrel so I have a 28" Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped 6.5 Creedmoor for my primary barrel and I got a fluted 20" Savage 10 FCP SR (or something) .308 take off for my secondary barrel and for the day when I move to a state that allows suppressors.

That Savage take off is pretty much what I wanted but I imagine the rifling isn't quite as nice as what you can get in a good $250 AR barrel and being a take off, I doubt I have any recourse if I find out something is wrong with it.

If I had a $250 Savage pre-fit option with a threaded muzzle (I don't need flutes) and a decent reputation for accuracy, I would have jumped on it.

Right now, there are hunting profile Savage take off barrels with plain muzzles that are cheap but probably a bit too cheap for a nice switch barrel rifle. There are a few odities like the 10 FCP SR that have a lot of features like muzzle threads and fluting which command quite a premium compared to the hunting profle barrels. The next step up seems to be the $400 level which is great but setting up a switch barrel rifle with every barrel $400+ is going to get pretty expensive.

For a .308 barrel that I'll probably shoot more surplus South African 7.62*51 through than FGMM, I don't think I need to spend $400 so I spent about $200.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#48
It's not about how cheap, it's having a range of options.

I have an ARC Nucleus coming with three Barlocs. I want a switch barrel so I have a 28" Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped 6.5 Creedmoor for my primary barrel and I got a fluted 20" Savage 10 FCP SR (or something) .308 take off for my secondary barrel and for the day when I move to a state that allows suppressors.

That Savage take off is pretty much what I wanted but I imagine the rifling isn't quite as nice as what you can get in a good $250 AR barrel and being a take off, I doubt I have any recourse if I find out something is wrong with it.

If I had a $250 Savage pre-fit option with a threaded muzzle (I don't need flutes) and a decent reputation for accuracy, I would have jumped on it.

Right now, there are hunting profile Savage take off barrels with plain muzzles that are cheap but probably a bit too cheap for a nice switch barrel rifle. There are a few odities like the 10 FCP SR that have a lot of features like muzzle threads and fluting which command quite a premium compared to the hunting profle barrels. The next step up seems to be the $400 level which is great but setting up a switch barrel rifle with every barrel $400+ is going to get pretty expensive.

For a .308 barrel that I'll probably shoot more surplus South African 7.62*51 through than FGMM, I don't think I need to spend $400 so I spent about $200.
Exactly. It's about options and availability. The current "off the shelf" options are very limited.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Bulldog10

hlee

Sergeant
Jul 14, 2012
1,143
273
83
40
TX
#49
Exactly. It's about options and availability. The current "off the shelf" options are very limited.
Off the shelf options are great, but there needs to be a market in order for a manufacturer to invest in the tooling. And, there needs to be a market for the dealer to invest in the inventory. As an analogy, I wear size 28-34 pants that’s a 28” waist and a 34” inseam. I can find pants “off the shelf” with these measurements, but they are typically reversed; 34 inch waist and 28 inch inseam. There is a market for pants for short fat guys, but much less of a market for tall(ish) slim guys. Occasionally I can find pants that are actually my size, but the options are limited. But, with on line ordering I can get pretty much what I want, in the correct size, but they can be more expensive. If 60% of Americans were not overweight or obese I would have fewer problems finding pants that fit, but the clothing industry- just like the firearms industry- goes with what sells.

You want...

lots of options
Cheap
High quality
Readily available
In a niche platform

I would offer that you can probably pick 3 (maximum) out of that list- for any market.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
590
128
43
Joplin, MO
#50
Off the shelf options are great, but there needs to be a market in order for a manufacturer to invest in the tooling. And, there needs to be a market for the dealer to invest in the inventory. As an analogy, I wear size 28-34 pants that’s a 28” waist and a 34” inseam. I can find pants “off the shelf” with these measurements, but they are typically reversed; 34 inch waist and 28 inch inseam. There is a market for pants for short fat guys, but much less of a market for tall(ish) slim guys. Occasionally I can find pants that are actually my size, but the options are limited. But, with on line ordering I can get pretty much what I want, in the correct size, but they can be more expensive. If 60% of Americans were not overweight or obese I would have fewer problems finding pants that fit, but the clothing industry- just like the firearms industry- goes with what sells.

You want...

lots of options
Cheap
High quality
Readily available
In a niche platform

I would offer that you can probably pick 3 (maximum) out of that list- for any market.
That's fine. Hell I'd settle for high quality and readily available at $400-500. Availability is the bigger issue to me. I can search "savage pre-fit" and not find anything in 6.5 Creedmoor that's actually in stock. I can do that same search for a RPR barrel and find half a dozen options that I can order right now.
 
Top Bottom