Back story on Mil use of Schmidt and Bender 4-16X42 PMII

Norseman1950

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Anyone know the history on this particular scope? Curious as to what rifle it was used on and what turret reticle configuration was used. I've seen pictures of the 4-16X50 on an older SR25 but nothing of the smaller 42.

Thanks!
 

koshkin

Dark Lord Of Optics
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I vaguely recall that it was used in Europe, but I am not sure it ever made it into the military world in the US. I do remember that in terms of basic optical quality, I thought this the best of the PM II line.
 

CSTactical

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I have and use a S&B 4-16x42mm with the GENIIXR, one of the best scopes S&B ever made. The 42mm allows the user to get the scope closer to the barrel and the 42mm works great with NV units like the PVS27.


Mike @ CSTACTICAL
 

Norseman1950

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I have a 4-16x50 non illuminated on my AI. It's easily my favorite scope. Love the simplicity of that single turn elevation turret. The one I was thinking of was the Horus with the locking turret. Pretty cool scope.
 
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Blackfoot 7

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I purchased one from a member here a couple years ago. We were geographically co-located and I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to link up and just to have a good look at it. It's a single-turn equipped with the H37 reticle. Spent about a minute or two examining it and I knew I had to have it. It wasn't a common scope for starters, and finding any information about it ,other than it was made to meet the requirements of an undisclosed US military organization, proved elusive. There was an article on the old Horus web site that talked about this scope a little bit. The scope was mounted on an M110 SASS I believe. i wanted to get in touch with the author of that article to see if he could provide more insight on the background, history, use, etc, but it appears that particular page no longer exists. Nevertheless, it's currently the best optic I own and I'm happy to be among the few lucky ones to score one at a good price considering the obscure and rare nature of this optic. I've only seen these pop up for sale once or twice since obtaining mine, and considering the price guys have been asking for them, I'm quite surprised they don't get snapped up in a hurry. Again, it could just be because they are not well known because there are so few out there relatively speaking, which makes it all the more satisfying for having the unique privilege to own one.
 

m1match

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I've got one on my GAP 308, it's a great package, much lighter and compact than the 5-25 PMII and the single turn turret is awesome as long as you don't need a ton of elevation.
 

physhphude

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Thanks for the history guys. I have seen a couple for sale and regret not buying one. I am looking for one for an m110 clone I am building if anyone has one they would like to sell.
 

Winchester59

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I have one of these very neat scopes (S&B PMII 4 X 16 X 42 Illuminated with H37 reticle) in great condition that I would take $2250 for. It came in a Larue LT-678 QD base/rings which is the base for the LT-STOMP System (Sniper Total Optical Mounting Package) that has the extra screw holes for mounting a night vision device. I would take $250 for the base/rings. I prefer direct e-mail dweaverdvm@aol.com over Hide PM's.
 

reubenski

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They were either commercial purchases in very small quantities or loaned for market research. I inherited one on an Instructor gun around 2007. 4x16 42, single turn 13mrad, locking elevation turret, H27 reticle. That scope was used on multiple M24's and SR25s. It got employed during a couple of International Sniper Comps so it probably popped up in some press photos. I spoke to Carl Heinz Gerloch of S&B when they visited our training compound and praised the single turn locking turret. After folks used that scope locking turrets became a desired feature in SOCOM. I wouldn't really classify it as a Mil scope for US services. A lot of scopes have been COTS purchased or tested.
 

m1match

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I have a 4-16x42, 3-20x50, and 5-25x56 and they all have crystal clear optics and world class contrast and color rendition. I have not used them in low light. Side by side, I can't tell any difference in the image quality of any of my S&Bs.
 

sharfshutz762

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Ive had a few and I cannot tell the difference in optical quality against the 50mm. the 4-16s have some of the best depth of field of any scopes ever. the only downside is the real estate it takes up if your running NV on a short rail. If it gives up some light gathering I can say its not very much if I had to do a blind test I probably couldnt tell the difference.
 

wompa

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Elements within the United States military have used the 4-16X42 on various rifles, most were unit purchases. This picture shows it being used on some USMC special operations rifles
Looks like a bunch of vertical split LT-104's. They must not listen to the hide?
 

Blackfoot 7

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They were either commercial purchases in very small quantities or loaned for market research. I inherited one on an Instructor gun around 2007. 4x16 42, single turn 13mrad, locking elevation turret, H27 reticle. That scope was used on multiple M24's and SR25s. It got employed during a couple of International Sniper Comps so it probably popped up in some press photos. I spoke to Carl Heinz Gerloch of S&B when they visited our training compound and praised the single turn locking turret. After folks used that scope locking turrets became a desired feature in SOCOM. I wouldn't really classify it as a Mil scope for US services. A lot of scopes have been COTS purchased or tested.
Good information. Thanks for sharing.
 
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proftwo

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Thanks for all the great information. I have owned one for several years and did not know the history.BTW I have listed it on the hide for sale. Its a great scope I'm just getting up in age that I need to "thin the herd"
 

Dag34

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I too have one and it has the H27 reticle. I was told they were CAG scopes....who knows though. They are marked with a QR code and a etched number on the ocular housing.
 

Supersubes

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I bought one new from mile high in 2009 or so for $2400 when the 5-25’s were escalating in price quickly. Mine, I believe, is the scope used on the German G22 300 wm. It is a 50mm, standard P3 mildot, single turn CW 13 mil knob that’s marked in .1 mil, as well as BDC in meters for the 300wm. The tops of each turret have the AI logo also. I thought that would go well on my AW.


I’m no sniper, but it has to be one of the best fightin’ scopes ever made. I’d say the only thing it gives up to today’s scopes in the same power range, is size. It isn’t compact. Some may say that a 13 mil single turn isn’t enough. Gets my AW with any of its barrels to max effective range just fine. The glass is epic, and it’s easy to get behind. It would take a serious catastrophe in my life for me to even consider selling it. Like my AW, I’m takin that shit with me when I go....
 

XTREM HTR16

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I see new ones advertised with a double turn 1/4 MOA turret and P3L or P4L reticle. Anyone have experience with this model?
 

Pinmaster

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I bought one new from mile high in 2009 or so for $2400 when the 5-25’s were escalating in price quickly. Mine, I believe, is the scope used on the German G22 300 wm. It is a 50mm, standard P3 mildot, single turn CW 13 mil knob that’s marked in .1 mil, as well as BDC in meters for the 300wm. The tops of each turret have the AI logo also. I thought that would go well on my AW.
..
I have a MKII 4-16x50 .1mil single turn that came with .338LM AI logos. It may have been a test scope for the L115A series of rifles. Great scope, just needs more internal adjustment.
 

Supersubes

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I have a MKII 4-16x50 .1mil single turn that came with .338LM AI logos. It may have been a test scope for the L115A series of rifles. Great scope, just needs more internal adjustment.
Guess it just depends on how far youre shooting day in and day out. Its’s got value, and 5-25’s are going pretty cheap these days. 13 mins will Get your .338 well beyond 1k. If that isn’t enough, consider selling it here.
 

Pinmaster

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I shoot
Guess it just depends on how far youre shooting day in and day out. Its’s got value, and 5-25’s are going pretty cheap these days. 13 mins will Get your .338 well beyond 1k. If that isn’t enough, consider selling it here.
I shoot 1,000+ about every weekend. I have a 5-25 & a 3-12 SB , both are DT and will go 1k plus. The 4-16 came on my L115A2 so it will stay on there. The 3-12 glass seems the best to me.
 

rth1800

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I had and used several of them. It was my favorite S&B until the Ultra Short came out. I sold all of mine off and replaced with US's. They were great scopes.
 

proftwo

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I have one and it is very nice. I had one with H37 but new one has P4L fine with moa. I like it better for target use.
 

Eliteuas

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I’m running the 4-16 x50 s&b p4f mil/mil with single turn turret . Best scope I’ve ever looked through, and I’ve looked through a lot of glass.. I did just pick up a Hensoldt ZF 4-16 , which is waiting for me when I get back to the states on Saturday. I’ll be comparing the two , but for me the Schmidt stays on my main gun.
 

Aries64

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XTREM HTR16 -

The .25 MOA PMII 4-16Xs' (there are 4-16X[42]s' and 4-16X[50]s'), have actually been around for years. The .25 MOA 4-16Xs' only come in Double Turn since their 56 MOA of Elevation can't be accommodated in a Single Turn like the 0.1 MIL's can. Here are some old photos of a 4-16X[42] .25 MOA Double Turn from a FS thread of bender338's from years ago:










Keith
 

Alpine 338

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I run the 4-16x42's on my precision AR's mounted via Badger Uni-Mount, and the 4-16x50's on my TRG-22's mounted via Near Alpha mount. They all have the Gen 2 Mildot, which are a great combination with 223 and 308 in the field. The 13-mil turret limit is just about at the ballistic limits of the two cartridges. Was just shooting both AR's out to 800-yards today, and 16X was more than enough magnification for steel targets.
I've done well with this setup on my AR's in various team matches. In my opinion, the SB 4-16 is the perfect scope for a Mk12 SPR senario.

I did recently purchased a 3-20 Ultra-Short with MSR reticle to add to a precision AR, but haven't had the time to get a mount ordered yet.IMG_20180927_205338717_LL.jpg
 
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Primus

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4-16x42 with Gen2XR is one of if not the finest gas gun and mid range optic ever devised. I wish S&B would still sell them new.
 
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Diablo

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Elements within the United States military have used the 4-16X42 on various rifles, most were unit purchases. This picture shows it being used on some USMC special operations rifles
Yes.

Had two, both ST and used them (a lot). Sent one back when knob loosened, SB went through it completely and got it back to me in about two weeks IIRC. Sold both after buying a pair of Heinsoldt 4-16's. Wish I'd kept the SBs too.