Another Vortex down

Mar 7, 2013
363
37
28
Spokane, WA
#1
This is the 3rd Vortex scope I have had to send back for warranty work. This time it is a Viper HS that I have had for about 3 years. It was mounted on a Rem 700 270 that I fired maybe 50 rounds through for zeroing and load work up. Then I built a 300 black out and decided to put it in an American defense Recon mount. Took it out yesterday, it was in the 30's w/ light breeze. Could not get it to hold zero at 25 yards, went to turn up the magnification, and the reticle rotates a full 90 degrees! WTF At first I figured the rings came loose, but no, they were rock solid, and the reticle rotation was repeatable. It was less extreme this morning after sitting in the house over night, but still able to turn 20 degrees.

I have also sent back 2 PST's. 1 4-16 and a 6-24. It is great that they have good warranty service, and they do take care of their customers, but this is ridiculous. I shouldn't HAVE to use the lifetime warranty. I have been one of their fan boys for a long time. I own a strike eagle and Sparc AR, along with the above mentioned optics. I have always felt you get more from them, as compared to Leupold, Nikon, etc. This is the last straw though, I think I am off the bandwagon.
 

diverdon

Online Training Member
Dec 21, 2011
2,773
933
113
WNY
#3
It sounds to me like you are buying the mid tier Vortex and using them then getting them fixed under warranty. Given that these products are not that expensive in the first place and that Vortex will fix them I'm not sure why you are unhappy. I guess it is frustrating to have something go down, still why not just step up to the more robust HD Gen II?

It is your money do what makes you happy.
 
Jun 13, 2008
742
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#4
I get where you're going diverdon, but they still shouldn't be breaking at the recurrence interval I observe. The Internet is so full of BS that it's hard to tolerate at times, but it's true that where there's smoke...

This complaint has been going on for YEARS.

I think they need to reexamine where they are cutting cost, because for both their Brand, and their bottomline, the repair service false bravado.

If Weaver and Unertl were making scopes that held zero and didn't break in the 70's, what's the break down here? Pun intended.
 
Likes: bhoges
Mar 7, 2013
363
37
28
Spokane, WA
#9
Vertical split rings in the ADM Mount ?
This is correct. Torqued appropriately using a wheeler fat wrench. I was recently informed of your posts regarding vertically split rings. I still am unsure of the mechanism that makes them an issue, but sure sounds like lots of people have issues.

I have been happy with my strike eagle, and was going to do a 1-8, but now I will look else where. I pulled the trigger on a K624i recently and am now a firm believer in quality optics. I would rather have to swap scopes between rifles than keep rotating them to the factory.
 
Likes: LG65CM

Codiekfx400

Sergeant of the Hide
Jan 29, 2018
318
78
28
#10
I had a Vortex Viper that the cross hairs came loose in. Sent it back on my own dime they fixed and returned in less than 2 weeks. Shook it loose with a 6.5 creedmoor. No more mid dollar range vortex for me I will stick with weaver in that price range. Would maybe consider a razor though.
 
Mar 7, 2013
363
37
28
Spokane, WA
#11
It sounds to me like you are buying the mid tier Vortex and using them then getting them fixed under warranty. Given that these products are not that expensive in the first place and that Vortex will fix them I'm not sure why you are unhappy. I guess it is frustrating to have something go down, still why not just step up to the more robust HD Gen II?

It is your money do what makes you happy.
Because at the time that I bought this optic, it was what my budget allowed. I have since replaced my PST's with K624i. And a Razor genII is over kill for a hunting rifle that gets taken out a few times a year at best. Even at that, the Viper HS series is a $400 optic, and the PST series is their second teir stuff, and I sent 2 in. I wouldn't have had an issue if this was a crossfire or diamond back.
 
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Basher

Sergeant
Dec 13, 2004
758
233
43
32
Mesa AZ, USA
#12
This is correct. Torqued appropriately using a wheeler fat wrench. I was recently informed of your posts regarding vertically split rings. I still am unsure of the mechanism that makes them an issue, but sure sounds like lots of people have issues.
What's wrong w/ vertically split rings? And does this include ARC rings?
 

goosed

Sergeant of the Hide
May 11, 2014
270
71
28
MN
#14
What's wrong w/ vertically split rings? And does this include ARC rings?
ARC's are hinged, not split. Small distinction, but it makes all the difference.

Vertical rings don't play well with certain erector designs. Whether it's binding in front of the turret causing parallax issues or binding behind the turret causing erector issues.

Combine that with the fact the design of vertical split rings lend themselves to an increased likely hood of user tightening errors causing the rings to become out of round further compounding things. There is plenty not to like...
 

Clearlight

Full Member
Jul 23, 2014
701
218
43
Brisbane Australia
#16
3 Vortex failures here too , 1 Razor and 2 PST’s : I’m done ...

Edit : as a joke I bought a fake Leupold MK 4 from a Chinese mall
junk shop for $60 and put it on a Win Mag hunting rifle . We intended
to use it as a target when ( not if ) it failed , but the bloody thing just
won’t die . Dials fine and holds zero , my buddies all have bets on
when it’s going to die, but it’s been 2 years and 400 rounds so far ...
 
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VegasHKShooter

Always Learning
Feb 28, 2013
230
78
28
Las Vegas, Nv
#19
I have personally had to send in a PST 4-16, and have personally seen 4 Strike Eagles go down. The Strike Eagles went down in classes that I was instructing, that’s how I’ve seen 4 scopes that weren’t mine break. We are now NOT allowing the Strike Eagles on work guns.

We tried them to be able to give guys an entry level scope that they could buy on a budget. Well, we tried.

I have not seen any Razor line scopes go down. Apparently, LOW in Japan knows how to build them better than China.

I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Razor, in fact I just mounted one on a buddy’s gun, but anything less is now a no go.
 
Feb 18, 2007
147
1
18
B'ham, AL
#22
Just sent my 4-16 pst in a couple months ago. The Parralax knob quit on my second range trip with the scope. It was on a 22lr trainer. I'll never put below a razor gen II on my centerfires if going with Vortex.
 
Apr 25, 2014
828
188
43
Boise, Idaho
#23
Two worst case scenario failures from the PST Viper. Day one of a week long hunting trip, and day one of a two day competition. Never again.

I have had four Razors, still own three. They are all are good to go.

If it doesn't say Razor on the side, I won't touch Vortex.
 
Sep 17, 2011
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west texas
#24
Had my gen 1 razor go down the 2nd stage of the heat stroke in 2016 but at the time didn’t realize it was the scope because the wind was pretty bad and doing some weird stuff coming over the hills. Went to the hotel room messed with the scope and thought I saw the cross hais jump but wasn’t sure since I really didn’t have a good setup to check it. So I dialed it back to zero and didn’t touch the turrets the next day at all.

When I got home I didn’t really check out the scope other than going to the range, checked zero and it was pretty far off. Set zero and shot targets out to 1000yds and everything seemed to track good so I left it alone.

Went to lone survivor match and figured I would check zero just to be safe, it was way off. Shoot the match wasn’t hitting anything.

Got home and put gun in vice to check scope at the house and after about 2 mils the recticle stopped moving and wouldn’t move at all.

Tried attaching a video of it but site wouldn’t take it.

Completely ruined two matches for me, partly my fault not checking it out when I thought there might be an issue after the first match but really I didn’t figure it was the scope since I was a razor.

That being said I’m still buying vortex, just bought a gen 2 pst today.
 
Jan 5, 2010
2,392
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SE Georgia
#25
My Gen 2 Razor is still going strong but thats 1 out of 5 thats been problem free. My Gen 1 Razor that was supposedly "built like a tank" went belly up after about 1500 rounds. The others were of the Viper series.
 

bab029

Hammer Mechanic
May 16, 2011
232
54
28
28
Louisiana
#27
I have a razor 2 bought in 2015 that has been flawless. Would like to try a Schmidt or NF, but cant convince myself that the expense would get more hits...
 
Mar 7, 2013
363
37
28
Spokane, WA
#31
I have a razor 2 bought in 2015 that has been flawless. Would like to try a Schmidt or NF, but cant convince myself that the expense would get more hits...

I battled for over a year with this. But once i got the K624i SKMR3 mounted i was kicking myself for not doing it sooner. The improved glass quality instantly helped me improve shooting beyond 600 yards.
 
Likes: CSTactical
Aug 27, 2017
27
2
3
#37
That warranty though 😂
I literally get pissed when I'm in the store and hear that "best warranty" crap. I have had experience with 3 PST's that were garbage. I work to hard to spend my money on a box of crap with a great warranty. Heck just send it in and they'll send out a new crap no questions asked! What else could you want the kid in the store says with all the glow of 18 year old sucker. I get that you get what you paid for, but $800 scopes isn't cheap. Just sayin.
 
Likes: Bulldog10
Jan 15, 2005
6,018
750
113
VA
#38
I literally get pissed when I'm in the store and hear that "best warranty" crap. I have had experience with 3 PST's that were garbage. I work to hard to spend my money on a box of crap with a great warranty. Heck just send it in and they'll send out a new crap no questions asked! What else could you want the kid in the store says with all the glow of 18 year old sucker. I get that you get what you paid for, but $800 scopes isn't cheap. Just sayin.

 

scudzuki

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 1, 2012
2,052
65
48
52
Philadelphia suburbs
#39
I literally get pissed when I'm in the store and hear that "best warranty" crap. I have had experience with 3 PST's that were garbage. I work to hard to spend my money on a box of crap with a great warranty. Heck just send it in and they'll send out a new crap no questions asked! What else could you want the kid in the store says with all the glow of 18 year old sucker. I get that you get what you paid for, but $800 scopes isn't cheap. Just sayin.
Yeah, a warranty doesn't cover the cost of the hunting trip where the scope failure leaves the shooter without a weapon.
 
Likes: Bulldog10
Jan 11, 2018
203
53
28
NC
#41
Wow. This thread has really put a halt on my scope decision, that has already been difficult. I’ve seen some of this before, but usually more good than bad. This thread is more the other direction.

Getting a side focus below 50 limits the options. I had been looking at the PST vs the Athlon Ares if I keep my cap at $1,000, and was considering the PST a possibility for paying up. But if I am willing to spend up to $1500 and open up used options, I have been considering a Tango or Vudu or Cronus for a jump in glass and hopefully quality. Seeing stuff like this makes me just want to go lower than all this and if I have problems, I won’t be as upset as if I had gone big... big for me. Or it makes me want to go bigger, and I don’t feel like I can justify that for my merely fun uses.
 
Aug 29, 2014
19
78
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#42
Hi everyone, this is Dave and Vortex and I’d like to weigh in here.
First, I’d like to say that the people at Vortex are absolutely committed to giving the best product and the best service in the world to our customers. Many of our employees, including myself, have been in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and know firsthand the importance of equipment that has the best reliability as humanly possible. With that said there never has been a perfect product ever made, and there never will be. We could literally fail every product ever made by any brand, if we looked hard enough. Every single product ever made, previous, now, and in the future, will fail under the right conditions or given enough use. I learned that first hand in critical combat situations. I had to adapt to the situation and make the mission happen.
So, what we do for you is strive to make our products the best they possibly can be and we give the best customer service, not because we put junk in a box, but because it’s the right thing to do. This is not a movie, it’s real life, and if we had the warranty we did with junk in a box we literally would not be able to stay in business (in real life). In addition, there are more examples than I can count where the customer damaged the scope and we will literally replace it with no questions asked (and without making you feel stupid...I've broken things due to my own fault too). Some examples:
  • Dropping product off a huge cliff – replaced no questions asked
  • Leaving a brand new purchased PST in the box on tailgate as customer drives away and it falls off in an intersection and is run over for about an hour. Scope crushed. – replaced no questions asked.
  • Customer torqued rings using FOOT pounds torque wrench, crushing scope tube. Scope replaced no questions asked.
  • Basically, if you buy a Vortex product you will have a product to use for the rest of your life no matter what.
We do this because we genuinely care about our customers and want them to have the absolute best experience possible in an imperfect world. Looking at how many scopes we have sold (and we sell as many or more than any other brand) our failure rate is far below 1%. Are some of the scopes never sent back? Sure! Are some scopes sitting in safes most of their existence? Sure! However, we still see very little failures and have other evidence that our failure rate is way below 1%. We have a huge amount of people that use our products, regularly, and successfully with no problems. When you have a ton of scopes out there the percentage can still be small but the number can be relatively high. In the day-in-age of the internet everything gets reported and can seem like a big number. People tend to report the negative and never the positive.

We do occasionally have customers with repeat problems. So, what’s that all about? On the clear majority of occasions such as these (which are actually quite small) we have found there is something very unique going on with the customer’s situation. This is not to bash the customer or say it’s their fault, at all. Scopes, rifles, other shooting equipment, and shooting in general are quite complicated and there are countless variables that can contribute to a problem (more variables than any brand or engineering group can account for if they are being honest). Most of the time in these situations we find something like one of the following:
  • Customer lapped their quality rings
  • Customer used vertically split rings
  • Customer over-torqued rings (yes, sometimes they use a FOOT pounds torque wrench or no torque wrench at all). I’ve been that guy that doesn’t have a wrench and I think my Mark 1 torque fingers are highly calibrated to make it happen….and then I screw it up (covered by our warranty! And we won’t make you feel stupid for doing it because we have been that guy too)
  • It could even be a very unique rifle, caliber, mount, scope combo that is causing a very unique and specific resonance frequency causing a problem with the scope. Again, there are countess variables and there are bound to be strange situations that will pop up.
So, what can we do for you in these situations? First, we never give the customer a hard time. If this is you in this thread, call us up! Put us to the challenge to help you out! We have actual human beings, in a menu tree 1 button deep (most of which are huge shooting enthusiasts themselves) to answer the phone and help you out by walking you through your situation. Our people will not belittle you or your situation. I’ve probably done more dumb things than you, anyway. Like I said, shooting can be complicated and we know that, so we will graciously do whatever we can to help you.
  • We have a FFL. We often have a customer send us their rifle and we mount their scope (a new one if needed). Then we will go out and shoot that setup for you and send you the target. After this we will send the rifle and scope back (all mounted up) and walk you through anything we learned along the way to get you up and shooting. We do this quite often actually and this is a great way we can often find the issue with the setup that is causing the problem.
  • If this doesn’t solve the problem, we have upgraded customers to a different product for no additional cost.
  • If this doesn’t work (which rarely happens) we will refund your money.
  • We literally offer a no risk experience.
  • We aren’t magicians so we can’t give you your time back, but we will do everything we can, short of sorcery, to make you happy. I have even bought ammo for a customer before to replace what they used up.
The bottom line here is that we will go out of our way to make sure you are happy with your product and are able to operate the way you need to. This is not a warranty on a box. Again, this is not a movie, it’s real life and bad things can and do happen. We do everything we can to make the experience better.
I’ll also point out that what we learn over time we constantly apply to make products better. I believe the product that started this thread was a Viper HS and the OP also referred to the Gen 1 PST. Our current Gen II PST is a big leap in performance and quality over the Gen 1 PST (which is an almost 10-year-old product).
Lastly, to the OP, give us a call and let us help you out. We live in an imperfect world and no product will ever be perfect. Eventually, with enough use, every product can and will fail (any brand, and type of product…not just shooting products). However, we will do everything we can to get you where you want to be. If there is something unique with your situation we will see if we can walk you through it and get your product working for you. Thank you

Dave
 

Arc Light

NRA Lifer/GOA Member
Aug 13, 2012
459
314
63
God's Country, Montana
#43
Haven't been a huge fan of Vortex low-mid tier optics, but you cannot fault their response on these forums. Dave ALWAYS responds to good or bad news, without fail.

We USED to have a Nightforce rep here too (still may, but I haven't heard a peep from them in years). I remember a few years ago their was a bit of a dust up with a member as to whether their scopes were really "mil-spec". After that thread, it seems that the Nightforce rep disappeared for good, never to be heard from again. I currently do not own either Vortex or Nightforce so no dog in the fight, just an observation.
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,018
750
113
VA
#44
Looking at how many scopes we have sold (and we sell as many or more than any other brand) our failure rate is far below 1%. Are some of the scopes never sent back? Sure! Are some scopes sitting in safes most of their existence? Sure! However, we still see very little failures and have other evidence that our failure rate is way below 1%. We have a huge amount of people that use our products, regularly, and successfully with no problems.
I have a hard time believing this based on my experience and those close to me. EVERY single product from Vortex I've owned has failed, every one. Everyone I have known to buy one of the Viper scopes has had it fail at one point or another... again, every one. None of us are misusing our equipment or intentionally abusing it. The one person close to me that bought a gen 2 Razor had to send it back before he even mounted it because of a problem with the turrets. It worked for a couple years and just all out failed recently due to something coming loose inside. Another guy I know just had something let loose inside a brand new gen 2 Razor and there's a huge black oval in the image.

I just can't believe myself and those I know have all the bad luck.

  • If this doesn’t solve the problem, we have upgraded customers to a different product for no additional cost.
  • If this doesn’t work (which rarely happens) we will refund your money.
  • We literally offer a no risk experience.
  • We aren’t magicians so we can’t give you your time back, but we will do everything we can, short of sorcery, to make you happy. I have even bought ammo for a customer before to replace what they used up.
There's a customer that recently purchased a gen 2 PST that has overly stiff adjustments, he was sent a replacement that has the same issue. He requested a refund and was told your company doesn't issue refunds on behalf of dealers. Two different stories, one is wrong. I'm sure he'd love for you to refund his money though since he requested that. He has a thread here, you should check it out.
 
Likes: Bulldog10

Primus

Gun Snob
Feb 13, 2017
478
166
43
Vancouver, WA
#45
You have to look at vortex like 2 separate companies. On half sells the razor and is a top tier scope manufacture. The other half peddles garbage from China and various 3rd world shitholes from Asia.

Buy from China and 3rd world shit holes, expect China and 3rd world shitholes problems.
 

Fenix Mike

Full Member
Aug 19, 2012
1,600
63
48
Phoenix, AZ
#46
Haven't been a huge fan of Vortex low-mid tier optics, but you cannot fault their response on these forums. Dave ALWAYS responds to good or bad news, without fail.

We USED to have a Nightforce rep here too (still may, but I haven't heard a peep from them in years). I remember a few years ago their was a bit of a dust up with a member as to whether their scopes were really "mil-spec". After that thread, it seems that the Nightforce rep disappeared for good, never to be heard from again. I currently do not own either Vortex or Nightforce so no dog in the fight, just an observation.
Forums are always a double edged sword for businesses... often trolls make it a point to spend their days harassing companies they don't like, cant afford, or for whatever reason disagree with. While id also like to see more support from vendors, I wouldn't if I was in their shoes because a slight error, whether intentional or not, will turn into 18 pages of hate in seconds, and sometimes even if nothing wrong was said, still ends up that way. Some of the smaller businesses enjoy the fight and the media it gains, but with larger businesses, I think most have decided its better to watch, than jump in, unless for a specific reason.
 
Apr 25, 2014
828
188
43
Boise, Idaho
#47
I didn't throw my scopes off a cliff, or run over them with a car. Kudos for taking responsibility for whomever should be so unfortunate as to experience scope breakage due to those factors. My scopes broke through normal usage, at the worst possible times. My exchange was handled quickly, with an apology. But I wasn't reimbursed for the day lost hunting while I drove 8 hours round trip for another scope (my 15 year old Bushnell that cost a fraction of what I paid for my Vortex), nor was I reimbursed for the day lost at a match. I got a loaner, zeroed in the early AM and managed to shoot day two. I sold every PST I owned after that..

I acknowledge that mechanical items break, even the best of them. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but the best warranty is the one you never have to use.

This isn't hate for the brand. I love the Razor products and will continue to share my opinion that they are a fantastic optic line that has treated me very well.
 
Likes: Pusher591
Aug 27, 2017
27
2
3
#48
Hi everyone, this is Dave and Vortex and I’d like to weigh in here.
First, I’d like to say that the people at Vortex are absolutely committed to giving the best product and the best service in the world to our customers. Many of our employees, including myself, have been in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and know firsthand the importance of equipment that has the best reliability as humanly possible. With that said there never has been a perfect product ever made, and there never will be. We could literally fail every product ever made by any brand, if we looked hard enough. Every single product ever made, previous, now, and in the future, will fail under the right conditions or given enough use. I learned that first hand in critical combat situations. I had to adapt to the situation and make the mission happen.
So, what we do for you is strive to make our products the best they possibly can be and we give the best customer service, not because we put junk in a box, but because it’s the right thing to do. This is not a movie, it’s real life, and if we had the warranty we did with junk in a box we literally would not be able to stay in business (in real life). In addition, there are more examples than I can count where the customer damaged the scope and we will literally replace it with no questions asked (and without making you feel stupid...I've broken things due to my own fault too). Some examples:
  • Dropping product off a huge cliff – replaced no questions asked
  • Leaving a brand new purchased PST in the box on tailgate as customer drives away and it falls off in an intersection and is run over for about an hour. Scope crushed. – replaced no questions asked.
  • Customer torqued rings using FOOT pounds torque wrench, crushing scope tube. Scope replaced no questions asked.
  • Basically, if you buy a Vortex product you will have a product to use for the rest of your life no matter what.

Dave
First of all Dave.... Thank you whole hardheartedly for your service. I have to be honest and tell you when I think about our service members (like you) and what they go through to give me my american dream, I realize I shouldn't get so worked up about my "pleasure" optics, guns, toys. It's just not that big a deal.

My opinion is that Vortex is not immune to the basic laws of business. Everything has a cost. That cost is forwarded to the customer. For example "the guy who throws his scope off a cliff, or runs in over" I feel sorry for him but I don't do that. I don't want to pay his "stupid tax". What invariably happens is that in order to provide that warranty (and shnazzy advertising, pomph, marketing) is that cost is made up somewhere else. Because at the end of the day Vortex is at a very competitive price point accross its range. IMO that cost is made up on the production side. Thus QC, and R&D slips. I don't think thats a sustainable business model. But hey, I could be wrong.
 
Nov 5, 2013
731
360
63
#49
this is great...i couldnt own any scope on the market if i threw a fit when one went down like some of you

vortex X
kahles X
nightforce X
schmidt X
bushnell X
minox X
....the list goes on lol

i personally know of more schmidt's that went back than gen 2 razors last year...guess that means schmidt is trash (sarcasm)
 
Apr 25, 2014
828
188
43
Boise, Idaho
#50
That's just crazy Morgan.. How on earth have you broken that many scopes?

Hell, I rolled my ATV over on my rifle and Bushnell Sportview scope a bunch of years back. I re-zeroed and was back in the game...

In my entire lifetime of bunches of days spent hunting large and small game all over the western US and shooting I have broken 3 scopes. One inexpensive Bushnell, a Leupy MK8 in a 3 gun match, and 3 Vortex (in 2 years). And I forgive the Bushnell, my horse broke it, because he was a dumbass... I also forgive the Leupy, I threw it into the dump box too hard and broke the top turret, because I was a dumbass... The Vortex's just broke. No reasons, no hard use or abuse..
 
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