A tale of two negligent discharges......

pmclaine

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#1

FS1

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#4
I had not made that connection... Well done!

The judicial crickets chirping and media screamfests... Will be amusing.

Agent needs to be fired. Post haste.

Steinle's killed needs to go to old sparky and fry like chicken.

Sirhr
You mean fried like a Molote right? :)
 

sirhrmechanic

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#8
I don't think it is right to compare a crime to an accident.
I think that's kind of the point of the post.... one was a clear crime. That 'wet didn't just have the gun 'go off when he picked it up.' That was lawyer coaching and BS. A total lie, IMHO... but a bleeding heart SF jury... called it an accident and blamed the gun.

The agent... pure, unadulterated negligence. From his carry method to his inability to manipulate his weapon properly (something he is trained to do), resulting in an ND. NOT assault. It won't meet the standard. However, it could meet standard for reckless endangerment, since the agent should have been instructed on firearms retention, safe handling practices, behavior while carrying, etc. And if he ignored that instruction or failed to follow it, he is guilty of everything from conduct unbecoming (fire him) to reckless endangerment. Which has severe legal implications, but even more severe civil ramifications... that is if he is worth more than what he has in his Christmas account and a 3 year old Buick.

IMHO, worse than his negligent discharge was the complete disregard he had after the incident for... where the bullet went? Who might it have hit? What aid can he render? His walking away muttering something... was just damning. We were taught that, even if you are involved in a shooting, the minute that the scene is clear and if you are facing no more bodily threat... go immediately to the person who is down and render aid. Once a perp is incapacitated and no longer a threat, it is the job of the officer to make sure that they get all possible medical aid. Period. You don't watch them bleed out and polish your Glock and make James Bond quips. Once someone is no longer a threat... they are a citizen in need... and entitled to all the aid and assistance one can render. The courts will decide, later, if the guy needs to go to Pine-Sol heaven. This agent's total disregard for what he just did... was disgraceful.

There is, of course, no comparison. Except that both are being portrayed as similar incidents. And an illegal who shot and killed an innocent 20-something walked free because it's the gun's fault and a slimy lawyer convinced a bleeding-heart San Francisco Jury that someone who had been deported repeatedly and had drug and criminal records... was a victim. Disgraceful. While at the same time and for, supposedly, the same thing... an FBI Special Agent is being over-charged... so a Colorado DA can try and make political points. If the assault charges are left in place... Agent will walk. The actions do not meet the standard....

It's a giant sh** show... and, again, shows that there is a two-tiered justice system. One by and for liberals... one for everyone else. When you have two justice systems... you have no justice system.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

diverdon

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#11
Once when I was in the Philippines, a Foreigner was in a car accident with a drunken trike driver who ran a stop sign. The judge ruled that the accident was 100% the Foreigners fault. The Problem was that the Foreigner had overstayed his visa thus he was not legally in the country, therefore he was not legally driving on the road. So if he did not have a right to be there then any consequence of being there was completely on him.

That is a legal theory I would be glad to see used here.
 
Aug 24, 2010
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#12
The difference here is the illegal alien got a politically driven legal team to work in his defense, as well as he refuses to own up to his crimes. The lies he spews are as bad as the legal wrangling his attorneys are attempting to get him off on technicalities.

The agent is owning up to them, at least it seems to be that thus far, and there is video so he can't tap dance his way out of it in the first place.

The two cases couldn't be further from each other.
 

pmclaine

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#13
I don't think it is right to compare a crime to an accident.
His defense was "it just went off".

A great defense on the part of his lawyers because based on media propaganda some large portion of the country thinks guns "just go off".

I agree with your point.

I think in Steinles case there was some intention or reckless behavior that a person would know or should know to cause harm.

But the defense in both these cases was and is going to be "Oops!"
 

pmclaine

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#14
Once when I was in the Philippines, a Foreigner was in a car accident with a drunken trike driver who ran a stop sign. The judge ruled that the accident was 100% the Foreigners fault. The Problem was that the Foreigner had overstayed his visa thus he was not legally in the country, therefore he was not legally driving on the road. So if he did not have a right to be there then any consequence of being there was completely on him.

That is a legal theory I would be glad to see used here.
I've seen it used here when a citizen absolutely T-boned a car operated by an unlicensed illegal.

The basis was going to be had you followed the law this meeting of the two would never happened.

The citizen just stood there as the other party was cuffed mumbling "But it's my fault"

No sir actually it wasn't.
 
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pmclaine

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#15
The difference here is the illegal alien got a politically driven legal team to work in his defense, as well as he refuses to own up to his crimes. The lies he spews are as bad as the legal wrangling his attorneys are attempting to get him off on technicalities.

The agent is owning up to them, at least it seems to be that thus far, and there is video so he can't tap dance his way out of it in the first place.

The two cases couldn't be further from each other.
The two defenses are likely to be the same.

In the Steinle case I think it was Sig that came in as a professional witness for prosecution to show the firearm can not "just go off".

Obviously the jury thought Sig was lying.

In this case prosecution will likely have Gaston Glock on the stand saying his design can not "just go off".

And everyone will take it as gospel, as they should.

The FBI agent will be found guilty or innocent based on facts.

The other guy was defended and found innocent on fantasy and a desire to believe.
 
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#16
Opps,, I am a criminal x5, Opps at least once more for drugs, Opps, I stole a gun, Opps, I carried it in another act of criminal behavior? Opps, I killed someone completely innocent? I mean come on when is enough, enough?

I am sorry, ya, two NDEs (Maybe, the criminals wasn't but a missed shot).. But we need to look at the context and the result, I do not see these as the same..
 
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Aug 24, 2010
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#17
The biggest defense for the agent will be intent, we all know he never intended to have an ND, but it happened. Regardless of intent, one is still responsible for their actions. The jury in the illegal's case failed in that regard, dreadfully, but it's far from precedence. That whole reasonable doubt thing was once again exploited against the ignorant, and another prosecutor team proved themselves incompetent to get what should have been an easy conviction. Nothing more than another win for enough money being able to buy someone out of any crime, while society loses yet again.
 
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WATERWALKER

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#18
I wonder if the defense will claim negligence on the part of the holster manufacturer. The gun fell out of the holster so maybe the retention mechanism failed? In all honesty, I doubt there was anything more than friction holding the gun in place. Ultimately, this comes down to several fail points such as having a weapon in a bar while off duty, negligence as far as handling the weapon (ND), failures to remain on scene & render aid. We could go on & on...
 

pmclaine

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#19
Opps,, I am a criminal x5, Opps at least once more for drugs, Opps, I stole a gun, Opps, I carried it in another act of criminal behavior? Opps, I killed someone completely innocent? I mean come on when is enough, enough?

I am sorry, ya, two NDEs (Maybe, the criminals wasn't but a missed shot).. But we need to look at the context and the result, I do not see these as the same..

I agree with you 100 percent but I'm only considering the two similar based on the fact the outcome we see in the dumb FBI agent video is exactly the case that Steinle's murderer walked away from as presented by his defense.

If the outcome was "just" for Steinles murderer shouldn't the courts be giving the FBI agent a slap on the wrist and stern finger pointing?
 
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diverdon

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#21
Some one should mention the felony murder statue. If a criminal is in the process of a felony and someone dies as a result then it is murder under the law.

So if someone robs a bank where I am cashing a check and the stress brings on the big one then that is murder, even if they only had toy guns and wished no one any harm. In California I am pretty sure it is a felony to carrying stolen guns is a felony to even if the death was accidental it was murder.
 
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ArmyJerry

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#22
meh no big deal anymore, especially if you are a protected class of the day for the leftists and the repubs (pretend centrists).

Some one should mention the felony murder statue. If a criminal is in the process of a felony and someone dies as a result then it is murder under the law.

So if someone robs a bank where I am cashing a check and the stress brings on the big one then that is murder, even if they only had toy guns and wished no one any harm. In California I am pretty sure it is a felony to carrying stolen guns is a felony to even if the death was accidental it was murder.
 
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sirhrmechanic

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#23
Some one should mention the felony murder statue. If a criminal is in the process of a felony and someone dies as a result then it is murder under the law.

So if someone robs a bank where I am cashing a check and the stress brings on the big one then that is murder, even if they only had toy guns and wished no one any harm. In California I am pretty sure it is a felony to carrying stolen guns is a felony to even if the death was accidental it was murder.
Diverdon for AG!!!!

I had not thought of that angle... but in a real justice system... that is exactly how the 'Wet should have been prosecuted!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

pmclaine

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#24
Correct me if wrong but d spite what California's laws are for you or I, his unlawful possession was only considered a misdemeanor and he got time served.
 

sirhrmechanic

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#25
The bigger questions, though... was he felony illegal? Was the gun stolen? Possession of stolen firearm?

The interesting question... was he in 'felony' status doing anything at the time. Including being inside the USA illegally? If he was in felony status... committing a felony... Diver's point is right on.

Of course... the 'gun just went off' is horse-hockie! So the reality is that he committed murder. Regardless of his felony status. But 12 angry ass-pirates on a California jury... saw him as a victim. And let him go. If there was truly justice in America... he would have had his medulla vaporized as he salsa-danced down the courthouse steps... just 'sayin.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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pmclaine

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#26
As in the FBI agent fuck up the firearm was bought by you and I, a federally issued firearm, that in Steinle's case some BLM agent or similar "misplaced" and the full story of that has never been told.
 

pmclaine

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#28
I'd say a back pack is not a California compliant secure storage device but in my mind my locked front door or locked car doors constitute a secure storage device.
 

Strykervet

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#30
It's apples and oranges the way I see it.

I forgot about that POS murdering that woman in CA, he shouldn't have been here in the first place. I figured his ass finally had it but no! They let this motherfucker go and he'll probably win his case and we'll get to pay him a few million to boot. This POS came back into this country after he'd been told he wasn't welcome FIVE TIMES, then broke into a cop's car to steal a weapon, then winds up shooting a citizen of the country he was a "guest" in. And now he's in a position to walk out a millionaire. Only in America do illegal aliens get treated with more reverence and respect than it's own citizens.

Fuck the fence, we need to mine the border, it's become a national security issue. We have a fence and it ain't working. A wall won't work either, ask the Chinese, they had one that was manned and people still got in. They will not stop coming until our country is as bad as the one they are leaving. It's why we don't have a Canadian problem, their economy and way of life is similar enough it's not worth the effort to jump the border.

The FBI guy, there wasn't a crime committed, he was just fucking stupid and negligent. Doing a backflip with a goddamn open top holster, WTF? I can imagine he scrambled to grab it, any of us would do the same thing if we dropped a weapon in public (despite the fact it probably won't go off due to falling) but how it wound up on the ground in the first place is negligent and he should be held to account the same as anyone else, whatever that is.
 

pmclaine

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#33
The dirtbag illegal met the intent criteria when he forcibly removed a weapon from a locked vehicle.
In Cali this obviously is politically driven and Kate/Kate's parents were the price of sanctuary ideals.

R
The stark reality of this post is horrifying.
 
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pmclaine

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#37
Wait until Cali divides into three under the gerrymandering designed by the communists and we will have 4 new anti us senators, 30 or so commie reps and electoral votes that go Marx.

Jefferson will not come of the plan the are voting on.

We will get Oceania.
 
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#39
I am not rooting for a Cal Ext (nor do I think it would pass / be granted). The splits ensure commie rule over each partition.

Functionally - if the split did come to pass, the State of Jefferson would likely follow on immediately.

The dancing FeeB should be dismissed.
 
Aug 24, 2010
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#40
A crime by negligence or recklessness is still a crime. If it was Joe Schmo the citizen there, even remove it from a bar and place it in the local Walmart parking lot, you can guarantee he'd be getting charged. The fact he carries a badge only amplifies his negligence and recklessness.

I'm not saying he should get sent up for a long time, but he was reckless, he permitted his firearm to discharge, and he inflicted injury upon another as a result. That's criminal. He was a Captain in the Army and is an FBI agent, he knew better than to do a handstand breakdance while carrying in an open top holster, he certainly knew better than to rapidly snatch a loaded firearm up off the ground, and he damn sure knew better to investigate what happened to the bullet after it fired. The 2nd degree assault charge definitely applies in my opinion: d) He recklessly causes serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon; https://law.justia.com/codes/colorado/2016/title-18/article-3/part-2/section-18-3-203/
 
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Culpeper

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#42
Just read about this happening to even the best. SOG guy misfires a suppressed Swedish-K. Drops it and continues and then picks it up and it goes off and shoots another SOG in the leg.
 
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#46
Just read about this happening to even the best. SOG guy misfires a suppressed Swedish-K. Drops it and continues and then picks it up and it goes off and shoots another SOG in the leg.
That was negligent. He pointed a loaded gun in the direction of another human, with the safety off,and pressed the trigger. Serious injury is likely to happen.

This is a quote from the Colorado law linked above:

(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the second degree if:
....
(d) He recklessly causes serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon;
 

Culpeper

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#47
I forgot to mention they were getting gunned down at the moment by a group of other people. They managed to get out. On that day at least. Plus, I think they were in Laos pretty much sterile and illegal. Not sure if Laos had any laws about assault in the second degree at that time.
 
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