6mm Dasher

May 30, 2010
56
13
8
51
Australia
I don't have enough rounds on mine to comment. I'm using AR2208 (Varget) and AR2209 (H4350) behind 105gr Berger Hybs. I have a short freebore - .104". 32.5gr Varget and 36gr of H4350 shoot to exact same point of impact at 100m.

Those using H4895 (AR2206H in Australia) any comment on the below thread? A number of dasher shooters in Aus appear to have increased throat wear running that powder - it appears contrary to Josh's experience stating Varget was torching throats.

http://ozfclass.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6497&sid=2987b2f645604d3d558c7f617ce7b59d&start=15
 

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,230
630
113
Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
I ran Varget. It was very inconsistent in lot to lot burn rates, enough that I was struggling to keep a load in tune with it. I had issues finding Varget and when I could get a couple pounds here and that that was good but tuning a load every 250-300rds is why I got away from the other 6's I shot. The Varget was also prone to producing nasty carbon rings in the throat that had to be consistently maintained or the thing would start shotgunning.

I also ran H4895 and it was super accurate, very easy to load and plenty temp stable. It's a little on the fast side for the 105's adn definitely too fast for the 110s/115's but it was available and I could get 16lb of it in a single lot, that was enough to have the barrel mostly smoked (2800rd). The Varget barrel life was better but at an increased maintenance rate that I wasn't a fan of.

I run IMR 4166 currently and I'm liking it a lot. The 4166 gives me a little more speed than the Varget, less pressure than both Varget and H4895, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to carbon ringing a throat like Varget was, and it's readily available because it's produced domestically.
 
Feb 13, 2017
764
50
28
Orange Park,FL
I ran Varget. It was very inconsistent in lot to lot burn rates, enough that I was struggling to keep a load in tune with it. I had issues finding Varget and when I could get a couple pounds here and that that was good but tuning a load every 250-300rds is why I got away from the other 6's I shot. The Varget was also prone to producing nasty carbon rings in the throat that had to be consistently maintained or the thing would start shotgunning.

I also ran H4895 and it was super accurate, very easy to load and plenty temp stable. It's a little on the fast side for the 105's adn definitely too fast for the 110s/115's but it was available and I could get 16lb of it in a single lot, that was enough to have the barrel mostly smoked (2800rd). The Varget barrel life was better but at an increased maintenance rate that I wasn't a fan of.

I run IMR 4166 currently and I'm liking it a lot. The 4166 gives me a little more speed than the Varget, less pressure than both Varget and H4895, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to carbon ringing a throat like Varget was, and it's readily available because it's produced domestically.

This is why I love this sport. Gunsmiths who take the time to share their experiences and knowledge. I appreciate everyone else's replies as well. This is a great place for me to start. Looks like I'll be picking up some IMR 4166 to try along with as much varget as I can find.

Thanks guys!
 
Nov 23, 2010
199
3
18
31
Missouri
I ran Varget. It was very inconsistent in lot to lot burn rates, enough that I was struggling to keep a load in tune with it. I had issues finding Varget and when I could get a couple pounds here and that that was good but tuning a load every 250-300rds is why I got away from the other 6's I shot. The Varget was also prone to producing nasty carbon rings in the throat that had to be consistently maintained or the thing would start shotgunning.

I also ran H4895 and it was super accurate, very easy to load and plenty temp stable. It's a little on the fast side for the 105's adn definitely too fast for the 110s/115's but it was available and I could get 16lb of it in a single lot, that was enough to have the barrel mostly smoked (2800rd). The Varget barrel life was better but at an increased maintenance rate that I wasn't a fan of.

I run IMR 4166 currently and I'm liking it a lot. The 4166 gives me a little more speed than the Varget, less pressure than both Varget and H4895, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to carbon ringing a throat like Varget was, and it's readily available because it's produced domestically.
What about RL15?

What kind of max load with the IMR 4166 for the 105 and 110gr bullets?

Thx
 

bab029

Hammer Mechanic
May 16, 2011
237
60
28
29
Louisiana
Several folks out here shoot jlk. I hear that they are the next step up from Berger/Sierra etc. in all aspects. But you have to order ahead and get enough to last. It’s a one man show.
 

Renomd

Full Member
Feb 13, 2017
1,774
137
63
How are the 105 JLK's compared to the hybrids? Doesn't seem like many people run the JLK's.
105 jlks shoot great! They used the same exact powder load in two of my dashers as the 105 hybrid and at the same speed. However they shot considerably slower in another barrel (3 groove) compared to 105 hybrids with the same exact charge. Either way they shoot well jumped .015-.025. Brian Allen and the Allen clan exclusively shoot JLK bullets. Dan Bertocchini shoots the 110s inhis dasher and gets phenomenal results. It’s crazy how consistent their base to ogive length is and you can see those results with how consistent you seat and group. But yeah order now don’t hesitate and expect 2-4 months of waiting
 
Mar 4, 2017
124
28
28
In my rifle, NORMA DASHER BRASS,110 SMK, 32.8gr Varget, CCI 450. Throat is eroded .060+ so my CBTO Measurements are no help to you. I have very good luck jumping them a ways.

Best of luck!
 

craigos

craigos from Scout 2015
Feb 11, 2017
1,848
84
48
PNW
I ran Varget. It was very inconsistent in lot to lot burn rates, enough that I was struggling to keep a load in tune with it. I had issues finding Varget and when I could get a couple pounds here and that that was good but tuning a load every 250-300rds is why I got away from the other 6's I shot. The Varget was also prone to producing nasty carbon rings in the throat that had to be consistently maintained or the thing would start shotgunning.

I also ran H4895 and it was super accurate, very easy to load and plenty temp stable. It's a little on the fast side for the 105's adn definitely too fast for the 110s/115's but it was available and I could get 16lb of it in a single lot, that was enough to have the barrel mostly smoked (2800rd). The Varget barrel life was better but at an increased maintenance rate that I wasn't a fan of.

I run IMR 4166 currently and I'm liking it a lot. The 4166 gives me a little more speed than the Varget, less pressure than both Varget and H4895, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to carbon ringing a throat like Varget was, and it's readily available because it's produced domestically.
Any load info with the 4166 ? I loved it in my 308 for years
 

bab029

Hammer Mechanic
May 16, 2011
237
60
28
29
Louisiana
Officially gave up on the Varget . Way too much carbon.

Anyone has solid data with IMR 4166 or any other clean good powder for the 110 SMK?
Waiting on my 8-lb jug of 4166 to get here, but I'm planning on doing a velocity ladder with 105s in the same range as varget, probably 31.5-33 grains, CCI 450s.

Start lower with 110s, maybe 31-32.5? Depends on how hot it gets in your area.
 

Raufoss

Sergeant
Nov 23, 2010
199
3
18
31
Missouri
Waiting on my 8-lb jug of 4166 to get here, but I'm planning on doing a velocity ladder with 105s in the same range as varget, probably 31.5-33 grains, CCI 450s.

Start lower with 110s, maybe 31-32.5? Depends on how hot it gets in your area.
Probably it will run 2850 to 2900 but I'll know more this weekend.
 

craigos

craigos from Scout 2015
Feb 11, 2017
1,848
84
48
PNW
Bighorn TL3
24" barrel, 1:8
107 gr Sierra HPBT MK
CCI BR4
Hydroformed Lapua brass

32.0 gr 4166 - 2908 fps, SD 9
32.5 gr 4166 - 2950 fps, SD 4
Very interesting - i run 4895 currently as Josh turned me onto it. But seeing the 107 loads here with 4166 very interesting. I am shooting 110s .. I love them in the dasher. Need to get a bottle of 4166 for the 110s I think.
 
Mar 4, 2017
124
28
28
Defiance Deviant
What action, barrel length,speed ,and what freebore/reamer , I also shoot 110s in Norma Dasher using rl16
Bought used bbl action - Defiance Deviant, 25” Bartlein M24 contour, speed is not a concern- accuracy is. Reamer?? Was cut for Lapua brass but the throat is so eroded I can safely use the longer Norma Dasher brass.
 
Jun 6, 2013
412
20
18
Illinois
Defiance Deviant


Bought used bbl action - Defiance Deviant, 25” Bartlein M24 contour, speed is not a concern- accuracy is. Reamer?? Was cut for Lapua brass but the throat is so eroded I can safely use the longer Norma Dasher brass.
Interesting, I know throats erode but I have never heard of any throat burning up enough to increase 50/1000 in length AND 30/1000 in diameter . That’s crazy
Speed is a curiosity as not many people use Norma Dasher brash so not much of a benchmark to compare.
Thanks
 
Mar 4, 2017
124
28
28
Interesting, I know throats erode but I have never heard of any throat burning up enough to increase 50/1000 in length AND 30/1000 in diameter . That’s crazy
Speed is a curiosity as not many people use Norma Dasher brash so not much of a benchmark to compare.
Thanks
The throat diameter has not increased .030, maybe .003. The length has increased .050-.060”, maybe more. Still shooting great!
A guess at velocity is 2800+ as it shoots right with everything else.
 
Jun 6, 2013
412
20
18
Illinois
Does anyone have h4350 data?
You can go up around 36 grains, for me it was a pain to get it in the case(too full) and didn’t offer anything more in speed or accuracy, my barrel is 24” possibly beneficial in a 28+
I found rl 16 to have better velocity, less pressure, and more accurate, 34.3 grains for 110 smk
35.3 for hybrids 2880 and 2960 respectively
 
Jun 25, 2008
242
2
18
Finally got out to do some load work up. Specs are Bighorn TL3 w/ 26" Kreiger barrel capped with a 30 cal Titanium phantom supressor. H4895 under Berger 105's.
These were once fire formed Lapua brass.
Charge Min Max Avg. SD
31gr 2881 2913 11.7
31.2gr 2912 2925 5.6
31.4gr 2920 2949 2932 11.9
31.6gr 2936 2947 2942 4.1
31.8gr 2955 2982 2967 10.0
32.0 2971 2988 2988 6.9
32.2 2994 3007 3001 6.3
32.4 3011 3022 3017 4.6
32.6 3013 3039 3028 10.2
32.8 3044 3063 3052 6.8

This was a cold day at 5760 elevation. Definitely not my best day shooting but with this I can start to see where I go next. 32.8 was starting to show a slight tension on bolt lift but not bad. I'm looking at 32-32.4gr playing with seating depth.
Out of curiosity, is that's the Cheyenne Mtn range?
 

lennyo3034

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 18, 2010
1,850
162
63
33
Southern MD
I'm trying to find a load for mine. So far I've worked up to:

31.3 gr of varget
105 Berger hybrid touching lands
CCI 450

2850 out of 26" barrel. However sds are rather high at 15 or so. Would I see lower SDs with a higher charge? This is a 700 yard gun so I don't really need the velocity.
 

bab029

Hammer Mechanic
May 16, 2011
237
60
28
29
Louisiana
This started as my cheap practice load, but until the stakes or higher or I need to shoot farther than 1000, those Hornady 105s are right at $0.20 a piece landed and do the trick admirably.

Tikka T3 by Accurate Ordnance
24" Hawk Hill 7.5 tw
Ultra 9CB
0.100' FB new
400 rounds on barrel

Hornady 105 BTHP (CHEAP!)
Lapua Brass
CCI 450
31.7 IMR 4166
2.30 COAL
2900 FPS on the nose

Used the 10-round velocity ladder to find this one. Picked a node, loaded five and checked SD.
Prints five shots in one big hole at 100.
8.3 mils to 1000 yards at 90F and 2000ish DA
Gonna burn 'em til they don't shoot any more.
 

Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Sep 24, 2014
2,639
502
83
Pacific Northwest
When I ran my Dasher at a low node I think I was around 2820fps and was using XBR8208. It was very accurate and had low SD's.

I'd go with the higher 2950ish node if I were you though. If you want to run slow spin up a 6BR barrel.
 
Likes: FatBoy

nexusfire

Secks fi millimeet
Sep 9, 2010
1,593
103
63
46
Mesa, AZ
On my new barrel I am running a Bartlein 5R, 8 twist, 26" barrel. Norma brass, CCI 450 primer, 32.5 gr Varget, -0.015 of the lands, 2965 fps. It has an ES of 9.
 

Walker TR

Long Range Pipehitter
Mar 1, 2017
275
27
28
Keller Texas
Nexusfire....its funny how new bartlin's run a little slower, my Hawk Hill with 1700 rounds on it runs 2960 with 32.3 of varget but my new Bartlein only runs 2930 with 32.3.....DA and temp were basically the same.
 

Walker TR

Long Range Pipehitter
Mar 1, 2017
275
27
28
Keller Texas
I'm trying to find a load for mine. So far I've worked up to:

31.3 gr of varget
105 Berger hybrid touching lands
CCI 450

2850 out of 26" barrel. However sds are rather high at 15 or so. Would I see lower SDs with a higher charge? This is a 700 yard gun so I don't really need the velocity.
There should be a higher node around 32.2 to 32.5 of Varget. Of course it depends on how the rifle likes to eat as well.
 
Jun 6, 2013
412
20
18
Illinois
I'm trying to find a load for mine. So far I've worked up to:

31.3 gr of varget
105 Berger hybrid touching lands
CCI 450

2850 out of 26" barrel. However sds are rather high at 15 or so. Would I see lower SDs with a higher charge? This is a 700 yard gun so I don't really need the velocity.
Rl16 gets the case full and produces unreal low es/sd around 35.4 gets 2960 in my 24”
If sticking with Varget like TR said 32.4ish give or take a few grains should put you in a good node
Around 2950 and lower SDs you could also change primers I’ve seen it cut SDs by 75%
 

Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Sep 24, 2014
2,639
502
83
Pacific Northwest
Any reports on hydroformed Lapua brass? I don't have the range time to fireform.

Any recommendations on where to buy the hydroformed brass?
Good reports on the brass, but you'll still need to fire it once for it to fully expand and sharpen the shoulders. Lots of guys will run that first firing in a match, so that is a bit simpler than fireforming from scratch.

Hunts Long Range and DJ's Brass are the two places I've heard the most.
 

Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Sep 24, 2014
2,639
502
83
Pacific Northwest
What’s the best way to fire form false shoulder or just jam and shoot. I have one coming and was also curious what the best does to pick up
The goal is to have the case head held firmly against the bolt face when it fires to minimize case stretch during the forming process. This also helps to get the final blow case lengths as consistent as possible. More consistent cases will be more accurate cases.

If by "best" you mean the OCD top level benchrest accuracy shooters. then false shoulder + jam would be the preferred option. Expand with 6.5mm mandrel, then size the neck down a bit at a time until it will chamber with a firm bolt close. Check with a bullet seated too since adding the bullet can make the bolt close a little more difficult. Would suck to prep a couple hundred pieces only to have to pull the bullets and redo. Seat the bullet with a firm jam into the lands, so total bolt close effort is a solid firm close. I also like to anneal brass after doing the false shoulder, seems to help reduce the number of split shoulders.

That being said, many guys have very good luck just jamming and shooting. I think the key is to use the full neck tension of virgin Lapua brass (don't pre-expand) and to make sure that you have a very solid jam with a fair bit of effort when closing the bolt. You might even intentionally use a bullet that doesn't have a long pointy nose. I've found bullets like the 105 RDF will wedge their way into the lands, where a bullet like the 105 Hornady BTHP hits the lands more solidly.

Whichever option you choose, make sure to keep the bolt lugs greased to avoid galling. Additionally you should use a primer with a softer cup like a Fed 205, etc, so that the firing pin doesn't drive the case forward in the chamber. Using CCI450's can cause problems and possibly even failure to ignite when forming. Expect to lose 3-4 cases per hundred to split shoulders no matter what you do.
 
Likes: arm017

arm017

Sergeant
Jun 5, 2017
399
97
28
Texas
The goal is to have the case head held firmly against the bolt face when it fires to minimize case stretch during the forming process. This also helps to get the final blow case lengths as consistent as possible. More consistent cases will be more accurate cases.

If by "best" you mean the OCD top level benchrest accuracy shooters. then false shoulder + jam would be the preferred option. Expand with 6.5mm mandrel, then size the neck down a bit at a time until it will chamber with a firm bolt close. Check with a bullet seated too since adding the bullet can make the bolt close a little more difficult. Would suck to prep a couple hundred pieces only to have to pull the bullets and redo. Seat the bullet with a firm jam into the lands, so total bolt close effort is a solid firm close. I also like to anneal brass after doing the false shoulder, seems to help reduce the number of split shoulders.

That being said, many guys have very good luck just jamming and shooting. I think the key is to use the full neck tension of virgin Lapua brass (don't pre-expand) and to make sure that you have a very solid jam with a fair bit of effort when closing the bolt. You might even intentionally use a bullet that doesn't have a long pointy nose. I've found bullets like the 105 RDF will wedge their way into the lands, where a bullet like the 105 Hornady BTHP hits the lands more solidly.

Whichever option you choose, make sure to keep the bolt lugs greased to avoid galling. Additionally you should use a primer with a softer cup like a Fed 205, etc, so that the firing pin doesn't drive the case forward in the chamber. Using CCI450's can cause problems and possibly even failure to ignite when forming. Expect to lose 3-4 cases per hundred to split shoulders no matter what you do.

**This is all you need to know about FF dasher**

and whatever method you choose, stick with just one method for fireforming. I jumped around with different techniques, and ended up with different fire formed dimensions and case overall lengths. For me a broad 100 gr Sierra SBT loaded "porno style" (load em long, jam, and shoot) resulted in the most consistent expansion. Split shouldered 2 out of 200.
 
Likes: Sheldon N
Feb 18, 2017
814
145
43
Albuquerque, nm
Seems many people are running cci 450 primers. Why not the 205m? I'm just getting in to the 6 dasher and after reading through this thread I'm wondering if there's any point in using up my 205m primers or just getting the cci 450s.
 

Gilly

On Target
Feb 27, 2009
522
38
28
Coloarado
Seems many people are running cci 450 primers. Why not the 205m? I'm just getting in to the 6 dasher and after reading through this thread I'm wondering if there's any point in using up my 205m primers or just getting the cci 450s.
I suspect the consensus is they have a harder cup and less likely to pierce and can handle more pressure. I’ve been running them in all my small primer stuff 6x47, 6.5 creedmore and 6br and just switched to 205m after some hang fire and failed to fire with what looked like solid strike in AIAX. But had a ftf this morning on 205m on load work up in 6x47 so I went back and changed die to bump shoulder a little less to see if that helps. Can’t say if it’s primer or another factor yet. Cci has had a reputation mainly on br primers to have this issue though.
 
Feb 18, 2017
814
145
43
Albuquerque, nm
I suspect the consensus is they have a harder cup and less likely to pierce and can handle more pressure. I’ve been running them in all my small primer stuff 6x47, 6.5 creedmore and 6br and just switched to 205m after some hang fire and failed to fire with what looked like solid strike in AIAX. But had a ftf this morning on 205m on load work up in 6x47 so I went back and changed die to bump shoulder a little less to see if that helps. Can’t say if it’s primer or another factor yet. Cci has had a reputation mainly on br primers to have this issue though.
That makes sense. I was using 205m for my 6x47l but I was only running about 2990fps. Never had any pressure issues, great SD. I just stocked up on them a few months ago, hopefully they work so I don't have to buy more primers!
 
Feb 18, 2017
814
145
43
Albuquerque, nm
I ran Varget. It was very inconsistent in lot to lot burn rates, enough that I was struggling to keep a load in tune with it. I had issues finding Varget and when I could get a couple pounds here and that that was good but tuning a load every 250-300rds is why I got away from the other 6's I shot. The Varget was also prone to producing nasty carbon rings in the throat that had to be consistently maintained or the thing would start shotgunning.

I also ran H4895 and it was super accurate, very easy to load and plenty temp stable. It's a little on the fast side for the 105's adn definitely too fast for the 110s/115's but it was available and I could get 16lb of it in a single lot, that was enough to have the barrel mostly smoked (2800rd). The Varget barrel life was better but at an increased maintenance rate that I wasn't a fan of.

I run IMR 4166 currently and I'm liking it a lot. The 4166 gives me a little more speed than the Varget, less pressure than both Varget and H4895, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as prone to carbon ringing a throat like Varget was, and it's readily available because it's produced domestically.
I heard something interesting on this from a very old bench rest shooter. Could have been old man rambling or could have been wisdom, but he was saying he leaves his new powder cans open for a day or two to let some of the moisture escape. Keeps lot to lot variances down. He said it's fine here in New Mexico and the powder actually dries. In humid environments he said he doesn't know what would happen. Has anyone else ever done this or heard of it?
 

bearbait

New Hide Member
Apr 19, 2018
1
0
1
110 SMK 5 thou off
Norma Brass (sucks BTW)
CCI 450
31.0 Varget
2870 FPS

I'm in AZ and it's hot as balls here now so you can probably go up another 1-1.5gr and be safe.
Can you elaborate on the isses you had with the Norma brass. That is what I have been shooting with good results. What was your experience? Been shooting the 108 ELDMs with 30.5 gr VRGET at 2860
 
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