50% off a Minox scope with purchase of a M18 rifle at EO

SOAPdata

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Hessian
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Mar 5, 2019
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Got my shipping confirmation.

Now I just need rings/mount (arc or spuhr cant decide) and a gun for the second scope to go on.

I have to say I have been really impressed with Blazer. All of my dealings with Yim have been some of the best I've experienced, ever.
 

LawnMM

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Y'all getting these at 50% off that think they're amazing, remember what they did to the rest of us who paid full price.

They're not as awesome as they seem. Now if they want to send me a check for the difference in value of what I paid versus what my scope is now worth in the name of selling shit rifles... might have to change my mind about them.
 

jwknutson17

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Y'all getting these at 50% off that think they're amazing, remember what they did to the rest of us who paid full price.

They're not as awesome as they seem. Now if they want to send me a check for the difference in value of what I paid versus what my scope is now worth in the name of selling shit rifles... might have to change my mind about them.
I've paid full price for a few and I'm not mad...

I bought many things like an AXMC for almost full price and two months later they dropped 2 grand. Is what it is. The ZP5 was the all the rave a few years ago and now your pissed because they arent full retail any more? Got it.
 

LawnMM

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The ZP5 was the all the rave a few years ago and now your pissed because they arent full retail any more? Got it.
Ya don't got it, at all. I'm not pissed a scope loses value through use, wear and tear, better newer models making it obsolete, etc.

I'm pissed when a company devalues their product by 30% to sell a shit rifle that nobody including everybody here who bought one for the coupon actually wants. Most sold them immediately to better the investment on the scope.

Don't get me wrong, hell of a deal. But it does hose everybody that paid full price for one. Maybe I wanted to try something different or upgrade to a newer model?

Guess what, if I can get $2k for a $3k scope, used, I'd be doing great. Too bad for me, huh? Guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

What about the dealers who had inventory of ZP5s but no way to compete with the EO coupon that came with the rifle? Too bad for them too, I guess, right?

Fuck everybody who paid full price when they were unheard of and didn't have the reputation that made the coupon possible!

You want to spend your cash on a company that does that you go right ahead.
 
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Tac Beard

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Ya don't got it, at all. I'm not pissed a scope loses value through use, wear and tear, better newer models making it obsolete, etc.

I'm pissed when a company devalues their product by 30% to sell a shit rifle that nobody including everybody here who bought one for the coupon actually wants. Most sold them immediately to better the investment on the scope.

Don't get me wrong, hell of a deal. But it does hose everybody that paid full price for one. Maybe I wanted to try something different or upgrade to a newer model?

Guess what, if I can get $2k for a $3k scope, used, I'd be doing great. Too bad for me, huh? Guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

What about the dealers who had inventory of ZP5s but no way to compete with the EO coupon that came with the rifle? Too bad for them too, I guess, right?

Fuck everybody who paid full price when they were unheard of and didn't have the reputation that made the coupon possible!

You want to spend your cash on a company that does that you go right ahead.
If your ZP5 is in decent condition, I’ll bet you can sell it for $2k fairly easily. Probably could have even while the deal was going on.
 

lte82

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Ya don't got it, at all. I'm not pissed a scope loses value through use, wear and tear, better newer models making it obsolete, etc.

I'm pissed when a company devalues their product by 30% to sell a shit rifle that nobody including everybody here who bought one for the coupon actually wants. Most sold them immediately to better the investment on the scope.

Don't get me wrong, hell of a deal. But it does hose everybody that paid full price for one. Maybe I wanted to try something different or upgrade to a newer model?

Guess what, if I can get $2k for a $3k scope, used, I'd be doing great. Too bad for me, huh? Guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

What about the dealers who had inventory of ZP5s but no way to compete with the EO coupon that came with the rifle? Too bad for them too, I guess, right?

Fuck everybody who paid full price when they were unheard of and didn't have the reputation that made the coupon possible!

You want to spend your cash on a company that does that you go right ahead.
If you don’t sell it you won’t lose money. Lol
 

LawnMM

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If your ZP5 is in decent condition, I’ll bet you can sell it for $2k fairly easily. Probably could have even while the deal was going on.


If you don’t sell it you won’t lose money. Lol
Precisely. I can sell it and take a $1k haircut or be stuck with $3k tied up in it. Awesome choices. 🙄 But hey...

 
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l33t5p34k

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Got my call today and talked to Yim. Delivery scheduled for Friday.

I have to decide on a mount sooner than I thought any recommendations? Thinking about the Arc one-piece or the MDT mount.
 

Tac Beard

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I’m looking at it like I got a great deal on a $3,000 scope. Were you happy with it when you bought it, at least until you found out about the 50% off deal? I don’t see why you wouldn’t keep it and use it. Especially since they’re back to ~$3k now.

I understand the frustration of missing out on the deal and paying more. It’s still a great scope.
 

LawnMM

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Especially since they’re back to ~$3k now.
There's the issue buddy, they'll never be "back to $3k".

Guys won't buy them at a $3k price point because it'll be viewed as buying a $2k scope for $3k. Or guys will say, I'll just wait for another sale/coupon. Or they'll be outright hostile about it and accuse the owner of trying to buy low and sell high.

Minox has forever burnt the value on the ZP5. I'm not saying it's not a good scope, or that it wasn't a good deal for anybody looking to buy one.

I'm saying it blows for everyone else who might have had aspirations of selling their Minox.

Now instead of listing it for 2800 and maybe coming down a touch in PMs I think you'd be doing well to get 2k for used and MAYBE 2200-2400 for brand new from a coupon purchase.

It's still a solid scope, but I'm never giving them my money again and you shouldn't either.
 
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.30kal

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There's the issue buddy, they'll never be "back to $3k".

Guys won't buy them at a $3k price point because it'll be viewed as buying a $2k scope for $3k. Or guys will say, I'll just wait for another sale/coupon. Or they'll be outright hostile about it and accuse the owner of trying to buy low and sell high.

Minox has forever burnt the value on the ZP5. I'm not saying it's not a good scope, or that it wasn't a good deal for anybody looking to buy one.

I'm saying it blows for everyone else who might have had aspirations of selling their Minox.

Now instead of listing it for 2800 and maybe coming down a touch in PMs I think you'd be doing well to get 2k for used and MAYBE 2200-2400 for brand new from a coupon purchase.

It's still a solid scope, but I'm never giving them my money again and you shouldn't either.
Agreed. I was about to sell my Zp5 to upgrade to a ZC right before that shit started. Now the delta is a little more than I can afford at this point. Won’t be giving them any of my money again.
 

wjm308

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Before the 50% off deal even came, used ZP5’s were selling for 2300-$2400 for MR4, yes there were outliers asking for more but doubtful they ever got it, but other reticles were selling for less, in fact, CS Tactical had a blowout of another reticle for $2300 if I’m not mistaken.

I agree that for the short term this has “de” valued Minox optics, but it doesn’t make them any less valuable, in fact, now that more shooters have them in their hands word will spread on how good they are.

What does this look like for future sales of Minox, my guess is they will only see a slight rise in sales due to the effect you mention Lawn, and maybe that after a slight drop in sales.

The biggest mistake they made was not including the dealers in this, CS Tactical used to sing the praises of the ZP5 and their competition team used these scopes, now all I hear from CS Tactical is ZCO and my guess is their team has all dumped the ZP5, not because they ceased to be good scopes but because they got the raw deal. Schmidt has also burned bridges with their dealer base by making the competition the sole distributor in the US.

If Minox does not lower MAP in the US on the ZP5 I think they will struggle to sell, so they either need to lower the price or come out with a ZP6 line designed by GSO to encourage new interest.

At $2k it is a no brainer but there is just too much competition at the $3k level. If given the choice between a $3200 ZP5 or a $3500 ZCO I would likely choose the ZCO, but I do like the MR4 reticle better than the MPCT series, but if Minox drops MAP to $2500, well that might change things a bit.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but it almost seems like where there was once dominance by European manufacturers they now seem to be struggling to figure out the high end US market.
 

Tac Beard

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There's the issue buddy, they'll never be "back to $3k".

Guys won't buy them at a $3k price point because it'll be viewed as buying a $2k scope for $3k. Or guys will say, I'll just wait for another sale/coupon. Or they'll be outright hostile about it and accuse the owner of trying to buy low and sell high.

Minox has forever burnt the value on the ZP5. I'm not saying it's not a good scope, or that it wasn't a good deal for anybody looking to buy one.

I'm saying it blows for everyone else who might have had aspirations of selling their Minox.

Now instead of listing it for 2800 and maybe coming down a touch in PMs I think you'd be doing well to get 2k for used and MAYBE 2200-2400 for brand new from a coupon purchase.

It's still a solid scope, but I'm never giving them my money again and you shouldn't either.
I understand your point and I don’t disagree with the thrust of it. You just seem so *mad* about it. This type of shit happens every day, in all different industries and markets, so I guess I don’t see what makes this situation so egregious.

And the street/advertised/listed price IS back to about $3k; whether you think anyone will buy it for that is a separate discussion.
 

Tac Beard

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Before the 50% off deal even came, used ZP5’s were selling for 2300-$2400 for MR4, yes there were outliers asking for more but doubtful they ever got it, but other reticles were selling for less, in fact, CS Tactical had a blowout of another reticle for $2300 if I’m not mistaken.

I agree that for the short term this has “de” valued Minox optics, but it doesn’t make them any less valuable, in fact, now that more shooters have them in their hands word will spread on how good they are.

What does this look like for future sales of Minox, my guess is they will only see a slight rise in sales due to the effect you mention Lawn, and maybe that after a slight drop in sales.

The biggest mistake they made was not including the dealers in this, CS Tactical used to sing the praises of the ZP5 and their competition team used these scopes, now all I hear from CS Tactical is ZCO and my guess is their team has all dumped the ZP5, not because they ceased to be good scopes but because they got the raw deal. Schmidt has also burned bridges with their dealer base by making the competition the sole distributor in the US.

If Minox does not lower MAP in the US on the ZP5 I think they will struggle to sell, so they either need to lower the price or come out with a ZP6 line designed by GSO to encourage new interest.

At $2k it is a no brainer but there is just too much competition at the $3k level. If given the choice between a $3200 ZP5 or a $3500 ZCO I would likely choose the ZCO, but I do like the MR4 reticle better than the MPCT series, but if Minox drops MAP to $2500, well that might change things a bit.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but it almost seems like where there was once dominance by European manufacturers they now seem to be struggling to figure out the high end US market.
Very well said.
 

Threadcutter308

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Before the 50% off deal even came, used ZP5’s were selling for 2300-$2400 for MR4, yes there were outliers asking for more but doubtful they ever got it, but other reticles were selling for less, in fact, CS Tactical had a blowout of another reticle for $2300 if I’m not mistaken.

I agree that for the short term this has “de” valued Minox optics, but it doesn’t make them any less valuable, in fact, now that more shooters have them in their hands word will spread on how good they are.

What does this look like for future sales of Minox, my guess is they will only see a slight rise in sales due to the effect you mention Lawn, and maybe that after a slight drop in sales.

The biggest mistake they made was not including the dealers in this, CS Tactical used to sing the praises of the ZP5 and their competition team used these scopes, now all I hear from CS Tactical is ZCO and my guess is their team has all dumped the ZP5, not because they ceased to be good scopes but because they got the raw deal. Schmidt has also burned bridges with their dealer base by making the competition the sole distributor in the US.

If Minox does not lower MAP in the US on the ZP5 I think they will struggle to sell, so they either need to lower the price or come out with a ZP6 line designed by GSO to encourage new interest.

At $2k it is a no brainer but there is just too much competition at the $3k level. If given the choice between a $3200 ZP5 or a $3500 ZCO I would likely choose the ZCO, but I do like the MR4 reticle better than the MPCT series, but if Minox drops MAP to $2500, well that might change things a bit.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but it almost seems like where there was once dominance by European manufacturers they now seem to be struggling to figure out the high end US market.
Yeah, I anticipate they’ll be coming out with a ZP-6 fairly soon. It’ll do a nice job of shoveling kitty litter over the top of past sins........
 

frank320

Private
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Apr 8, 2019
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There's the issue buddy, they'll never be "back to $3k".

Guys won't buy them at a $3k price point because it'll be viewed as buying a $2k scope for $3k. Or guys will say, I'll just wait for another sale/coupon. Or they'll be outright hostile about it and accuse the owner of trying to buy low and sell high.

Minox has forever burnt the value on the ZP5. I'm not saying it's not a good scope, or that it wasn't a good deal for anybody looking to buy one.

I'm saying it blows for everyone else who might have had aspirations of selling their Minox.

Now instead of listing it for 2800 and maybe coming down a touch in PMs I think you'd be doing well to get 2k for used and MAYBE 2200-2400 for brand new from a coupon purchase.

It's still a solid scope, but I'm never giving them my money again and you shouldn't either.
To be fair to Blaser/Minox, when they came up with this 50% coupon deal, they envisioned people buying their rifle(M18or M12) and then buying an equivalently priced scope at 50% off to put on the rifle. They sure as hell did not expect this "thread" to go viral and folks like us to take advantage of them by buying the cheapest rifles for around $400, then using the coupon to buy a $3600 scope at 50% off.

They could have easily shut the program down(or disallow ZP5s in the coupon program), but they decided to honor the deal and even went above and beyond to manufacture additional batches of ZP5 MR4s.

Their original "intention" was to help sell some rifles, with no intention of screwing anyone over. Who would have thought that a bunch of us on this site would take advantage of this deal and go to town with it?
 

Threadcutter308

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To be fair to Blaser/Minox, when they came up with this 50% coupon deal, they envisioned people buying their rifle(M18or M12) and then buying an equivalently priced scope at 50% off to put on the rifle. They sure as hell did not expect this "thread" to go viral and folks like us to take advantage of them by buying the cheapest rifles for around $400, then using the coupon to buy a $3600 scope at 50% off.

They could have easily shut the program down(or disallow ZP5s in the coupon program), but they decided to honor the deal and even went above and beyond to manufacture additional batches of ZP5 MR4s.

Their original "intention" was to help sell some rifles, with no intention of screwing anyone over. Who would have thought that a bunch of us on this site would take advantage of this deal and go to town with it?
With no disrespect intended toward you.........

I have zero interest in what is fair to Minox/Blazer.........that ship has long since sailed.
 

lte82

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They could have easily shut the program down(or disallow ZP5s in the coupon program), but they decided to honor the deal and even went above and beyond to manufacture additional batches of ZP5 MR4s.
Remember when Bushnell did something similar a year or so ago? They put out a coupon then back tracked on their higher end scopes. They ended up honoring it for *some* but not all.
 

Ericsl2

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I mean if you're unhappy with the minox, I'd buy it for maybe 1800. I wasn't a big fan of them after owning a couple, but for 1800 I could make it work!
 

jakelly

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The first tier 1 scope I bought was a Steiner. This was one of the original M series scopes where the MSR center cross was a little thick. I literally didn’t get it mounted before Steiner announced the new T5xi. They were going to fix the center cross on this new scope, it had the same glass, scope production and support were going to be here in the US, and the best part... it was UNDER $2000! Not great for those of us that bought at nearly 3k. I called Steiner to ask why on earth they undercut their existing customers without even so much as an option to swap our reticles? The guy obtusely pretended to not understand why anyone would be upset. I immediately listed it in the PX for something like $400 less than I paid and sold it quickly. Less than a two weeks after buying, I had already sold for a tidy loss.

I decided to go ahead and reinvest in a Kahles Gen2 with MSR-K. Those had been out for a while, and the Gen2 was a recent upgrade. I liked a lot about the scope. I probably only owned that scope for a matter of a couple months before the Gen3 was trotted out. I kept that scope and used it for years rather than take another bath. I figured it wouldn’t go much lower than the $1900 it fell to overnight, and I liked the scope. When I did sell it, I got the same $1900. I kid you not, my next scope purchase after the Kahles was a $1500 LRHS. Wow.
 
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Rthur

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While I've not partaken in this deal they have made adding to the collection more affordable. :cool:
Have checked out all but the ZCO and strangely I haven't lost any points not having the newest
hotness...
The MR4 is my fav reticle and these old eyes get by.
YMMV

R
 

lte82

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My initial take on the Minox was that consistency was all over the place from scope to scope. Some had tactile turrets, others didn't. Image quality was also somewhat hit or miss, with some good ones and some that didn't seem to have the same resolution. Some turrets didn't line up, others did. The newer ones appear to be much more consistent though. I just shot my first match with the 5-25 MR4, and despite not having much time behind it (less than 100 rounds prior to the match), it was easy to get used to and by the end of the match I was questioning if I liked it or my Schmidts better. I still think $2500-2700 is a fair price for them, if you consider that NF, Schmidt, etc are that price or higher. If people want to give them away for $2000 or less, that's their own fault...
 

wjm308

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I kid you not, my next scope purchase after the Kahles was a $1500 LRHS. Wow.
Ouch, I too remember when the LRHS's were up there, then GAP starts selling them for $750, now you can't get that scope (LHRS has been discontinued) but essentially the same scope is the LRTS which has also been over $1000, I'd be curious what the current resale value of these scopes are. Vortex has dropped their price on the Razor Gen II's, they used to sell for $2500 now they are at $1700.

My guess with Minox is that if ZP5 sales struggle this year (which I expect to happen for new sales in the US) then it's quite likely we might see some new scopes next year, or it's entirely possible that Minox realizes they will always struggle with gaining ground in the US market and may choose to abandon the market here, or decide that their scopes aren't worth what they thought they were (in the US market) and drop prices across the board. But I'm speculating and we may be completely surprised and Minox doesn't do anything for quite some time. I think the biggest negative impact the 50% off deal will have moving forward is the nervousness of future "new" buyers as there will always be the thought, "if I pay $3k for this scope, and Minox does another 50% off deal tomorrow, that will suck" and I think that trepidation is what will cause future buyers hesitation. We usually see manufacturers doing these types of deals right before new scopes are released, I am hoping for a ZP6 line, but I'm not holding my breath as there has been no indication this is happening anytime soon.

I understand some of the frustrations some have regarding the 50% off deal and I realize that, for some, you do not want to purchase anything else from Minox and that is your prerogative; however, how you feel about this situation does not detract from the fact that the ZP5's are great scopes and offered a great value even before the 50% off deal. If Tangent Theta were to do the same (offer 50% off all their scopes) it might really upset a lot of people who paid full price, but would it mean the scopes no longer performed as alpha scopes? When Schmidt and Bender dropped their US prices considerably a few years ago, how many decided "I will never buy from Schmidt again" because they had paid full price before the announcement? Manufacturer's make decisions, sometimes stupid decisions, because of fear which is usually brought on by lack of sales. For foreign manufacturers it must be even worse because they are often delayed in understanding trends in those foreign markets and end up "missing the boat" and finally bring out their top tier product only to find that five other manufacturer's did the same.

One final situation and I'll get off my soapbox ;) Kahles- in 2018 Kahles announced their new K318i and K525i scopes, as we all know Kahles has a huge fanbase on the Hide and many swore by (and some swore at) their K624i's so when Kahles announced these new 5x erector scopes a bunch took notice, including myself. Because of my obsession with Ultra Shorts and my disappointment with the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44, I decided to buy the Kahles K318i which absolutely crushed the Leupold with regard to overall IQ, in fact, it even beat out my Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20's in IQ. While I never owned the K525i I watched and listened to others and the trend soon revealed itself that these scopes struggle optically above 20x and have a narrow FOV compared to the competition. While the K318i is a stunning optical performer, it too suffers from narrow DOF which was made evident when I had the opportunity to review the Schmidt US scopes, the ZCO ZC420, the Kahles K318i and the Minox ZP5 3-15. While the Kahles kept up optically with the other alpha class scopes IMO, it struggled mightily with FOV and even though the scope had served me well for over a year, I decided it was time to sell (yes, to try something new). When these scopes were new they listed at $3200 and deals were few and far between, but when I went to sell I had to settle for $2300, $900 less than when new. The K525i's seem to suffer from the same fate with very low resale value (compared to the K624i). Part of the issue is the market has been flooded with excellent scope options and folks are willing to sell at such losses to get the next new hotness. We should not be looking at our scopes as investment opportunities, but more like commodities used to push the limits of our gear and skills. If we decide we want to get another scope, then we are going to lose some money, some scopes more than others yes, but rarely will we ever make money on the sale of a used scope (especially if we bought it new).

So, to sum this all up, Minox was selling the ZP5 5-25 for $3k and Kahles K525i for $3k (give or take for both), before the 50% off deal used ZP5's were selling for around $2300-$2400, during the deal they dropped to about $2000 - $2200 depending on condition, the Kahles K525i has had a similar hit and they didn't offer any 50% off deal. So has the ZP5 really lost that much value compared to pre-50% off deal, it certainly doesn't seem that way, maybe $200 on average which I expect to slowly climb back up now that the deal is over and most likely level off in the $2300 range (with some going for less and others going for more).
 

stello1001

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Ouch, I too remember when the LRHS's were up there, then GAP starts selling them for $750, now you can't get that scope (LHRS has been discontinued) but essentially the same scope is the LRTS which has also been over $1000, I'd be curious what the current resale value of these scopes are. Vortex has dropped their price on the Razor Gen II's, they used to sell for $2500 now they are at $1700.
I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.
 

jwknutson17

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Well said Bill. I think the examples of the drop in prices are endless in the scope world. You are right about a slight price drop of a few hundred bucks during the sale.
 

jwknutson17

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I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.
Can you send me the link to these LRHSi 4-18 scopes for that. I would buy one for that in a heartbeat.
 

jwknutson17

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Even at retail the ZP5 is still one of the best available at that price point. I still prefer the ZP5 over the ZCOs. The TT is the only one that is above the ZP5 on my list. If the ZCO was $2500 and the ZP5 was also the same, I would buy the ZP5.
 

260284

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I've seen LRHS/LRTS scopes for sale with an asking price of 850, even 900. When I can pick one up from Doug @599, there's no way I would consider paying for those on the PX. Doug has the non-illuminated and maybe those in the PX are the illuminated model. The difference is still too much for me consider. Also add in that the ones in PX could be used or open box, etc. Then there's the insurance that purchasing from Doug you don't have to search for past transactions to see if seller is GTG.
I believe @gr8fuldoug is selling the 3-12 LRST for that price, not a 4.5-18 or illuminated. I have a 4.5-18 LRHS and a 4.5-18 LRSTi, but I didn't pay full price for them. Could have got a LRHSi like the GAP deal for $650, should have sold the non-illuminated one and done it, but missed the boat. They are still a good scope at $750-900.
 

stello1001

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I believe @gr8fuldoug is selling the 3-12 LRST for that price, not a 4.5-18 or illuminated. I have a 4.5-18 LRHS and a 4.5-18 LRSTi, but I didn't pay full price for them. Could have got a LRHSi like the GAP deal for $650, should have sold the non-illuminated one and done it, but missed the boat. They are still a good scope at $750-900.
I agree, Doug is selling non illum 3-12 in FDE. I also agree that the ones in the PX are not completely crazy high price wise. They're priced OK. But for me, the 3-12 @ $599 is still good enough that I'll take that at a much lower price over the ones in the PX. At least until Doug has them of course.
 
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Threadcutter308

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Ouch, I too remember when the LRHS's were up there, then GAP starts selling them for $750, now you can't get that scope (LHRS has been discontinued) but essentially the same scope is the LRTS which has also been over $1000, I'd be curious what the current resale value of these scopes are. Vortex has dropped their price on the Razor Gen II's, they used to sell for $2500 now they are at $1700.

My guess with Minox is that if ZP5 sales struggle this year (which I expect to happen for new sales in the US) then it's quite likely we might see some new scopes next year, or it's entirely possible that Minox realizes they will always struggle with gaining ground in the US market and may choose to abandon the market here, or decide that their scopes aren't worth what they thought they were (in the US market) and drop prices across the board. But I'm speculating and we may be completely surprised and Minox doesn't do anything for quite some time. I think the biggest negative impact the 50% off deal will have moving forward is the nervousness of future "new" buyers as there will always be the thought, "if I pay $3k for this scope, and Minox does another 50% off deal tomorrow, that will suck" and I think that trepidation is what will cause future buyers hesitation. We usually see manufacturers doing these types of deals right before new scopes are released, I am hoping for a ZP6 line, but I'm not holding my breath as there has been no indication this is happening anytime soon.

I understand some of the frustrations some have regarding the 50% off deal and I realize that, for some, you do not want to purchase anything else from Minox and that is your prerogative; however, how you feel about this situation does not detract from the fact that the ZP5's are great scopes and offered a great value even before the 50% off deal. If Tangent Theta were to do the same (offer 50% off all their scopes) it might really upset a lot of people who paid full price, but would it mean the scopes no longer performed as alpha scopes? When Schmidt and Bender dropped their US prices considerably a few years ago, how many decided "I will never buy from Schmidt again" because they had paid full price before the announcement? Manufacturer's make decisions, sometimes stupid decisions, because of fear which is usually brought on by lack of sales. For foreign manufacturers it must be even worse because they are often delayed in understanding trends in those foreign markets and end up "missing the boat" and finally bring out their top tier product only to find that five other manufacturer's did the same.

One final situation and I'll get off my soapbox ;) Kahles- in 2018 Kahles announced their new K318i and K525i scopes, as we all know Kahles has a huge fanbase on the Hide and many swore by (and some swore at) their K624i's so when Kahles announced these new 5x erector scopes a bunch took notice, including myself. Because of my obsession with Ultra Shorts and my disappointment with the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44, I decided to buy the Kahles K318i which absolutely crushed the Leupold with regard to overall IQ, in fact, it even beat out my Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20's in IQ. While I never owned the K525i I watched and listened to others and the trend soon revealed itself that these scopes struggle optically above 20x and have a narrow FOV compared to the competition. While the K318i is a stunning optical performer, it too suffers from narrow DOF which was made evident when I had the opportunity to review the Schmidt US scopes, the ZCO ZC420, the Kahles K318i and the Minox ZP5 3-15. While the Kahles kept up optically with the other alpha class scopes IMO, it struggled mightily with FOV and even though the scope had served me well for over a year, I decided it was time to sell (yes, to try something new). When these scopes were new they listed at $3200 and deals were few and far between, but when I went to sell I had to settle for $2300, $900 less than when new. The K525i's seem to suffer from the same fate with very low resale value (compared to the K624i). Part of the issue is the market has been flooded with excellent scope options and folks are willing to sell at such losses to get the next new hotness. We should not be looking at our scopes as investment opportunities, but more like commodities used to push the limits of our gear and skills. If we decide we want to get another scope, then we are going to lose some money, some scopes more than others yes, but rarely will we ever make money on the sale of a used scope (especially if we bought it new).

So, to sum this all up, Minox was selling the ZP5 5-25 for $3k and Kahles K525i for $3k (give or take for both), before the 50% off deal used ZP5's were selling for around $2300-$2400, during the deal they dropped to about $2000 - $2200 depending on condition, the Kahles K525i has had a similar hit and they didn't offer any 50% off deal. So has the ZP5 really lost that much value compared to pre-50% off deal, it certainly doesn't seem that way, maybe $200 on average which I expect to slowly climb back up now that the deal is over and most likely level off in the $2300 range (with some going for less and others going for more).
Very good, accurate and thoughtful write up, Thank You. Particularly paragraphs two and three.

I doubt anyone has forgotten my previous rant, so I won't repeat it in whole here.

One of the main things that I find to be really unfortunate about Minox's 50% sale "strategy" is that in the case of the ZP-5 (as you have correctly pointed out), it is an Alpha class scope, but their (commercial) actions have severely and negatively impacted that standing in the marketplace. Eg; your observations about new buyer hesitation. They/Minox simply could not resist either the temptation of the short term gain, or could not resist the pressure from above to increase sales "NOW" (at all costs, previous buyers be damned).

My fundamental gripe was that when any of us look at Alpha class scopes/manufacturers, the 50% off (or anything remotely resembling that percentage) is just not done. TT, ZCO, SuB, (previously) Minox, et al, had/have limited distribution. The manufacturers do that for two reasons. Number one is to not have to deal with too many distributors whoring up the market, undercutting each other, then turning around and crying to the manufacturer about "that asshole other distributor".
The second reason is that by having limited distribution, the manufacturer can more easily/effectively lay down and enforce the law about discounting, which has the desirable effect of protecting their brand as well as helping (I didn't say guaranteeing) to maintain the value of the investment that the end customer has made. I am quite certain that as an example, ZCO dealers know full well that there are other distributors that would love to have the line and are constantly calling ZCO, sweet talking them and wanting to get their hands on the line. Same for TT. If you are a distributor that has the line, you'd be a fool to not toe the manufacturer's line.

When a customer invests $3,000.00 or more in an Alpha class optic, there is a very strong desire on the part of that customer that he will be treated with fairness, some degree of appreciation and respect. Minox didn't do that. In fact, it has the appearance that they either didn't even consider that, or they did consider it and just didn't give a shit.

As a bit of a somewhat similar, shirt tail comparison, look at the high(er) end camera and lens market. "Digital rot" is a well known term/condition as it applies to digital camera bodies. Just about everyone knows that the camera body that you buy today is going to depreciate to about 30% of what you paid for it in two years. Alpha scopes do not have that same reputation, so no long time owner of a ZP-5 could have known in advance that they'd be suffering the same (financial) fate as someone who had purchased a new digital camera body. It is also a well known fact that quality, high end camera lenses retain their value far better than what the digital bodies do.

Fo those of you that took advantage of the 50% off deal, my hat is genuinely off to you. You got a good deal on a good scope, good for you.

My previous rant was as much a baring of my soul to ZCO. I have more trust in them that they are smarter than Minox and won't pull that same crap. I pulled my investment out of Minox (at a significant loss) and moved it over to ZCO. I did so willingly and fully aware of all the consequences. If ZCO were to do something like what Minox did, I wouldn't feel any differently toward them as I do towards Minox.
 
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wjm308

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Very good, accurate and thoughtful write up, Thank You.

I doubt anyone has forgotten my previous rant, so I won't repeat it in whole here.

One of the main things that I find to be really unfortunate about Minox's 50% sale "strategy" is that in the case of the ZP-5 (as you have correctly pointed out), it is an Alpha class scope, but their (commercial) actions had a severely negative impact on that standing in the marketplace. Eg; your observations about new buyer hesitation. They/Minox simply could not resist either the temptation of the short term gain, or could not resist the pressure from above to increase sales "NOW" (at all costs, previous buyers be damned).

My fundamental gripe was that when any of us look at Alpha class scopes/manufacturers, the 50% off (or anything remotely resembling that percentage) is just not done. TT, ZCO, SuB, (previously) Minox, et al, had/have limited distribution. The manufacturers do that for two reasons. Number one is to not have to deal with too many distributors whoring up the market, undercutting each other, then turning around and crying to the manufacturer about "that asshole other distributor".
The second reason is that by having limited distribution, the manufacturer can more easily/effectively lay down the law about discounting, which has the desirable effect of helping (I didn't say guaranteeing) to maintain the value of the investment that the end customer has made. I am quite certain that as an example, ZCO dealers know full well that there are other distributors that would love to have the line and are constantly calling ZCO, sweet talking them and wanting to get their hands on the line. Same for TT. If you are a distributor that has the line, you'd be a fool to not toe the manufacturer's line.

When a customer invests $3,000.00 or more in an Alpha class optic, there is a very strong desire on the part of that customer that he will be treated with fairness, some degree of appreciation and respect. Minox didn't do that. In fact, it has the appearance that they either didn't even consider that, or they did consider it and just didn't give a shit.

As a bit of a somewhat similar, shirt tail comparison, look at the high(er) end camera and lens market. "Digital rot" is a well known term/condition as it applies to digital camera bodies. Just about everyone knows that the camera body that you buy today is going to depreciate to about 30% of what you paid for it in two years. Alpha scopes do not have that same reputation, so no long time owner of a ZP-5 could have known in advance that they'd be suffering the same (financial) fate as someone who had purchased a new digital camera body. It is also a well known fact that quality, high end camera lenses retain their value far better than what the digital bodies do.

Fo those of you that took advantage of the 50% off deal, my hat is genuinely off to you. You got a good deal on a good scope, good for you.

My previous rant was as much a baring of my soul to ZCO. I have more trust in them that they are smarter than Minox and won't pull that same crap. I pulled my investment out of Minox (at a significant loss) and moved it over to ZCO. I did so willingly and fully aware of all the consequences. If ZCO were to do something like what Minox did, I wouldn't feel any differently toward them as I do towards Minox.
I hear what you're saying Thread and appreciate the explanation. My biggest hesitancy with ZCO is the reticle, I love their glass, I love their turrets and their sight picture is truly something you have to experience first hand, and they have better/quicker warranty, but until they get a reticle similar to the MR4 or Gen 3XR I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger. My guess is, you prefer the MPCT reticles as a lot of shooters do (I think of it as an enhanced SKMR which has been one of the top reticles since it was introduced by Kahles) so it probably made sense for you to switch, unfortunately it sounds like that switch came right in the middle of this deal which had to be painful. I have been burned by drop in market value before as well, in fact, I grabbed one of the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 scopes because I wanted to see how it would compare to my old K318i and some of the other alpha ultra shorts, fully expecting for it to not perform quite as well, I have been impressed by how good it is for the price, I was going to wait for illumination but got tired of waiting and decided to get the non-illuminated model in hopes that I could sell it for a decent price but it has sat in the Hide classifieds for a while now and I've had to drop the price to over $200 less than what I paid new (and I got a good deal, or so I thought). The scope is actually very impressive and I'm not sure why it's not selling, but I'm definitely losing out on this one, but birddog is getting close to convincing me I can do without illumination and I may just stick it on one of my other rifles.

With the alpha's I agree, no one has done something as drastic as Minox; however, Schmidt did drop their prices considerably a few years ago so I wouldn't go so far as to say it has never been done. That being said, I do not see ZCO dropping their prices like that anytime soon; however, like all manufacturers I would not be surprised as soon as ZCO recup's on their R&D a bit and sales are beginning to dip that they might drop MAP, again, doubtful it will be drastic but to date ZCO's MSRP and MAP have been the same, they have not allowed their dealers to drop the price any and I expect that to change over time, but who knows, maybe they think their pricing structure is sustainable for the life of the product and we won't ever see any discounted ZCO's. I would like to see ZCO honor military and LE but again, they are not showing any signs of doing so anytime soon.
 
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Threadcutter308

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I hear what you're saying Thread and appreciate the explanation. My biggest hesitancy with ZCO is the reticle, I love their glass, I love their turrets and their sight picture is truly something you have to experience first hand, and they have better/quicker warranty, but until they get a reticle similar to the MR4 or Gen 3XR I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger. My guess is, you prefer the MPCT reticles as a lot of shooters do (I think of it as an enhanced SKMR which has been one of the top reticles since it was introduced by Kahles) so it probably made sense for you to switch, unfortunately it sounds like that switch came right in the middle of this deal which had to be painful. I have been burned by drop in market value before as well, in fact, I grabbed one of the new Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 scopes because I wanted to see how it would compare to my old K318i and some of the other alpha ultra shorts, fully expecting for it to not perform quite as well, I have been impressed by how good it is for the price, I was going to wait for illumination but got tired of waiting and decided to get the non-illuminated model in hopes that I could sell it for a decent price but it has sat in the Hide classifieds for a while now and I've had to drop the price to over $200 less than what I paid new (and I got a good deal, or so I thought). The scope is actually very impressive and I'm not sure why it's not selling, but I'm definitely losing out on this one, but birddog is getting close to convincing me I can do without illumination and I may just stick it on one of my other rifles.

With the alpha's I agree, no one has done something as drastic as Minox; however, Schmidt did drop their prices considerably a few years ago so I wouldn't go so far as to say it has never been done. That being said, I do not see ZCO dropping their prices like that anytime soon; however, like all manufacturers I would not be surprised as soon as ZCO recup's on their R&D a bit and sales are beginning to dip that they might drop MAP, again, doubtful it will be drastic but to date ZCO's MSRP and MAP have been the same, they have not allowed their dealers to drop the price any and I expect that to change over time, but who knows, maybe they think their pricing structure is sustainable for the life of the product and we won't ever see any discounted ZCO's. I would like to see ZCO honor military and LE but again, they are not showing any signs of doing so anytime soon.
Hi Bill, thanks for the response. Fundamentally, I agree. I’m overseas right now and it’s bedtime. I’ll reread this and come back to you with some responses/thoughts/opinions in a bit. Although, I’ll try to make them brief, no sense in me being redundant to what you’ve said.

Thanks again,
 
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UPSTATERAM

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Talked with Yim today. Put my order in and expecting delivery sometime in February. They are honoring coupons through February 2020. Looking forward to getting my scope.
did you have to buy the rifle prior to 12/31 for Them to honor through February?
 

UPSTATERAM

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Pretty much every optic that is not the latest and greatest and on backorder, etc. will lose value, some more than others depending on popularity among the community, but yes, if you bought a ZP5 last month and paid full price and then saw this deal, you might feel as Jay mentions above. I wish Minox would have done the deal through the dealer network instead of through Minox directly.
Thanks for clarifying. I bought a NIB ZP5 last week and deciding on an atacr mil xt or another zp5 in the PX.

Thoughts anyone?
 

wjm308

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Thanks for clarifying. I bought a NIB ZP5 last week and deciding on an atacr mil xt or another zp5 in the PX.

Thoughts anyone?
Do you like it, the ZP5 that is? Glass is going to be better than the ATACR but turrets might be nicer on NF; however, latest turrets on ZP5 are very impressive. Mil-XT reticle is nice but so is the MR4. Most likely you can pickup another ZP5 cheaper than you could the NF, but If you’re really wanting to try the NF and compare, if you buy used and don’t like it as much you can probably sell it with little to no loss.
 

UPSTATERAM

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Do you like it, the ZP5 that is? Glass is going to be better than the ATACR but turrets might be nicer on NF; however, latest turrets on ZP5 are very impressive. Mil-XT reticle is nice but so is the MR4. Most likely you can pickup another ZP5 cheaper than you could the NF, but If you’re really wanting to try the NF and compare, if you buy used and don’t like it as much you can probably sell it with little to no loss.
problem is I haven’t received the ZP5 yet it’s being shipping tomorrow. I definitely prefer glass quality most but I can get a new in box NF for 2350. You think the Minox will probably be in the same cost range after this whole 50% sale? Part of me wants to try the NF but it seems feedback is consistent that the Minox glass is superior. I get the
Whole NF is built like a tank but I’m not going to war with it. Thanks for your two cents.