.308 Winchester

Kevins750

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175gr nosler custom competition
42.0gr IMR 4064
FED 210 primer
Lapua brass full length sized
2.850 COAL
2661 avg..

168 speer hpbt
39.9 AR COMP
FED 210M primer
Lapua brass neck sized
2.800 COAL
2600 avg...

New caliber to me, so not much down the tube. Both combo's 1/2 moa at 100y.
Small sample size. Still doin OCW's on several powders and bullet combo's.

Savage 10FCP-SR 24" barrel, 4 port brake
Bushnell engage 4-16x44
Sinclair F-Class front bipod
Precision underground rear bag.20191224_175659.jpg
 

ubettcha

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Rl 15 43.1 weighed after Lock and load drop. +/- 2 kernels of powder
CCI 200
Lapua once fired fl sized with RCBS die neck honed for .002 neck tension(worth it)
168 smk COAL 2.820 .135 off the lands
2643fps SD 2 es 7 over 10 shots
First group is cold clean bore. First shot middle right then the next 4 are high as it shoots in. Adjusted .1 mil down and drilled the hole
Second was a target at 200 that had no holes near the bullseyes. I did a five shot dot drill using my splits app in 18 seconds and some change from a loaded chamber finger on the bang switch. Add 1-2 seconds for inserting a mag is my good day run
Third is a 5 shot 300yd had some issues with mirage. This is from a heated shoot house and I sit right next to it because it is the 300yd lane. I don't turn it on because of the mirage but others do
The other 2 are Fgmm I pulled the high shot in the bottom and The 2nd from bottom I went up.2 and right instead of left. Moved .4 left then down.1 and right .1 for the 3.
This rifle shoots box ammo really well. I have faster 175grn loads that shoot tighter than the FGMM. The smk and eldm use the same 0 so in a pinch or letting someone shoot it/class etc the box ammo is not the cuprit of a poor group.
 

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ubettcha

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If you guys wanted to set a barrel and load up for Max velocity out of 168 ELD-M’s, what would be your reamer/powder/etc... choices?

ETA: would 2850 FPS be a realistic expectation from a 24” barrel?

I guess basically what I’m asking is would it be that easy to squeeze much more velocity out of a 168 by hand loading than this loaded ammo is getting?

I'm at 2840 with a berger 168 using both varget and Rl15. I'm at 2708 with the 195tmk with CFE 223 COAL 2.940 single feed in my gun.
This 3 shot is at 300. It's 1 mil left of the bull to the right. The stripe is the waterline of the bull. This is touching and it has always shot left of the 150-178 sized bullets .120+ off the lands. I saw it after the first shot and just held the same poa for the group.
 

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Kevins750

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10 shot group 168 speer hpbt with imr 4064 @42gr
3 shot group AR comp same bullet 39.9 gr
I pulled the 9th shot and was so pissed, I pulled #10 worse. Black dot is 3/4"

20191226_100342.jpg
 
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ubettcha

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Cheap get it done quick load
pull down M118 lr brass right from the bag it came in they still have live primers
168 speer match 22ish a box of 100
43.3 RL 15
COAL 2.820
My goto has a 15fps ES from 43.1-43.6 with lapua a sierra 168 2640is the high and 2625 @the lowest charge. ymmv whereever your flat spot is load in the middle and it should work for practice or letting someone else shoot the rifle
 

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JMGlasgow

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I could not get those Speer bullets to shoot worth a darn in my Remington factory 1-12 twist. I even tried RL15, H4895, IMR4895, IMR4064, AR Comp, Bemchmark, TAC, and Varget. It does like the Hornady 168 A-Max and early batches of the ELD-M bullets. Maybe I got a picky barrel.

. My M1a likes them though.
 

Darkside-Six

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I'm at 2840 with a berger 168 using both varget and Rl15. I'm at 2708 with the 195tmk with CFE 223 COAL 2.940 single feed in my gun.
This 3 shot is at 300. It's 1 mil left of the bull to the right. The stripe is the waterline of the bull. This is touching and it has always shot left of the 150-178 sized bullets .120+ off the lands. I saw it after the first shot and just held the same poa for the group.
What was your charge weight with Varget on those 168’s?
 

Hoyt7mm

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Sometimes you just need to listen to people. Was trying 185 class bullets and wasn't having alot of luck (.5+ moa). Went back to 175 OTMs and problem solved. 3, 5 shot groups at 575 plus 1 to check dope before groups. 44 gr Varget, 175 OTMs, Federal GM brass, Fed 210M. Seated to same as factory Federal GM 175s. 2720 fps, 26" 5R.
 

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ubettcha

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What was your charge weight with Varget on those 168’s?
Higher than Sierria's book max for a 168mk by a substantial amount. In my rifle it's safe. If your rifle will run FGMM 175smk's in the 2740 range you might get the speed I'm seeing as that is what the faster lots of FGMM run in my rifle. Slower lots run 2704-2720
 

Mooseknuckles

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Shot my FN SPR A1 today with some reloads.
Federal 1x brass trimmed to 2.005
Berger 175 vld hunters coal 2.840
Cci 200 primers
42 grain of Varget
Velocity was 2597 over 5 shots with a sd of 5 and Es of 12.
From what I have seen on here with Varget this seems like a low node. I will try going up in powder charge. The FN has been an amazing shooting rifle.
5 shot group at 100 yards
734203A2-AE86-4DE1-AA73-3EA0593CEFA4.jpeg
 
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DedicatedShooter

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175 SMK
45.0gr Varget
Lapua Brass, neck sized with a Lee die
CCI BR2
2.170" to the ogive (it's a bit crunchy to say the least)
2808-2820fps (depending on powder lot#)
Sub 10 SD
ES in the teens
- Moderate pressure signs but I've been using this load in this rifle since 2011. Case life isn't bad, should probably start annealing but I've been saying that for years.
- Consistent sub .5" 5-shot groups at 100yds. Best group this year was .336" / Best ever was a few thou shy of .25"

Custom R700, 26" Krieger, 95 Palma Reamer
 
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stradibarrius

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Has anyone tried the Hornady tip for a .308? My 26" TRG22 has a 1-11" twist and they say you need a 1-8"????
If you have tried them any load data?
 

culater

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175 SMK
45.0gr Varget
Lapua Brass, neck sized with a Lee die
CCI BR2
2.170" to the ogive (it's a bit crunchy to say the least)
2808-2820fps (depending on powder lot#)
Sub 10 SD
ES in the teens
- Moderate pressure signs but I've been using this load in this rifle since 2011. Case life isn't bad, should probably start annealing but I've been saying that for years.
- Consistent sub .5" 5-shot groups at 100yds. Best group this year was .336" / Best ever was a few thou shy of .25"

Custom R700, 26" Krieger, 95 Palma Reamer
How many shots are you getting out your lot of brass.
 

stephanovich

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I'm (slowly) working up a 185 Jugg/Varget load with fired FGMM brass. I have a lot more Lake City LR--wonder if I should switch cases now?
 

LAW-DOG

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I’m liking cfe 223 & 168 eldm. In my 24in 5r 308 I hit 2900 FPS with 49gr cfe, br2 primer, lapua brass, oal 2.91in, .017in off the lands, with 8fps sd, & grouping well. Winchester brass was 75fps slower than lapua with the same load at 49gr of cfe 168 eld. At 49.3gr to 50gr exhibited pressure & was only 25fps faster. I’m going to try rl15 & see how it does vs cfe. I also want to see what temp stable powders do best. I have h4895 & varget, are there any other temp stable powders I should try for the 168 eldm
 

LAW-DOG

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I was going back over my results & found 49.5gr of cfe also produced very good results with 2930 FPS in lapua brass in my 24in 5r 308 168gr eldm. SlightLy flattened primers but not too bad. Forster bench rest full length sized, br2, 2.91 oal, .017 off the lands, sea level, & 50 deg weather. Very good half moa groups but I’m not sure the cfe will do well when summer comes around in the cal dessert but I always shoot early before it gets too hot
 

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straightshooter1

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I was going back over my results & found 49.5gr of cfe also produced very good results with 2930 FPS in lapua brass in my 24in 5r 308 168gr eldm. SlightLy flattened primers but not too bad. Forster bench rest full length sized, br2, 2.91 oal, .017 off the lands, sea level, & 50 deg weather. Very good half moa groups but I’m not sure the cfe will do well when summer comes around in the cal dessert but I always shoot early before it gets too hot
Hmmm??? Interesting. When I plug those number's into QuickLoad it calculates MV at 2769 fps. I've never seen my QL's calculations that far off before (~ 160 fps). And it shows the pressure at 56,143, which is not particularly high to show any pressure signs. I wonder if there's something unique about the chamber the would produce higher pressure???
 

LAW-DOG

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Hmmm??? Interesting. When I plug those number's into QuickLoad it calculates MV at 2769 fps. I've never seen my QL's calculations that far off before (~ 160 fps). And it shows the pressure at 56,143, which is not particularly high to show any pressure signs. I wonder if there's something unique about the chamber the would produce higher pressure???
I also checked it on my pro chrono & my friends chrony and they were consistent within 10 FPS of each other. I thought the same thing you did, it seems high. I also loaded Winchester brass with 50gr cfe that only got 2900 FPS. I ran the ballistics in my strelok & shot at 550 & 900 yards & it’s was dead on accurate with 2930 FPS plugged in. Hodgdons site said 49gr would produce 2830 I think so I was expecting around the same for my 49gr but I was getting 2900fps & with 49.5gr 2930 FPS with lapua. Winchester brass was almost dead on with hodgdon site 49gr at 2835 & 50gr at 2900 FPS but lapua brass was running faster with less powder & less pressure signs. The sd in lapua was better too around 8 FPS where the Winchester was 15-20 FPS
 
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LAW-DOG

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Hmmm??? Interesting. When I plug those number's into QuickLoad it calculates MV at 2769 fps. I've never seen my QL's calculations that far off before (~ 160 fps). And it shows the pressure at 56,143, which is not particularly high to show any pressure signs. I wonder if there's something unique about the chamber the would produce higher pressure???
One thought I had was the powder space between the lapua & Winchester was pretty obvious. Winchester had a lot of room & lapua was compressed
 

straightshooter1

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I also checked it on my pro chrono & my friends chrony and they were consistent within 10 FPS of each other. I thought the same thing you did, it seems high. I also loaded Winchester brass with 50gr cfe that only got 2900 FPS. I ran the ballistics in my strelok & shot at 550 & 900 yards & it’s was dead on accurate with 2930 FPS plugged in. Hodgdons site said 49gr would produce 2830 I think so I was expecting around the same for my 49gr but I was getting 2900fps & with 49.5gr 2930 FPS with lapua. Winchester brass was almost dead on with hodgdon site 49gr at 2835 & 50gr at 2900 FPS but lapua brass was running faster with less powder & less pressure signs. The sd in lapua was better too around 8 FPS where the Winchester was 15-20 FPS
The only thing I can think of to explain it is that maybe the batch of CFE 223 you're got is a particularly hot lot and well above what is normal for that particular powder. :eek: I guess time will tell??? 🤔
 

ubettcha

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The only thing I can think of to explain it is that maybe the batch of CFE 223 you're got is a particularly hot lot and well above what is normal for that particular powder. :eek: I guess time will tell??? 🤔
It's hard to say. I've run Lehigh 150's over 3030 with no issue. I also run 195tmk's at 2707 again with no issues. I can run those loads charge wise in LC 118lr Lapua or 1x fired FC or Winchester with just some longer case prep for domestic or LC brass. CFE has run well for me with these 2 bullets I'm sure you could run 168's really fast too. For me, a comp load needs to shoot 20-40 shot groups, not 3-5 shot groups. Running hard doesn't stay together in my rifle like 2635fps.
 

LAW-DOG

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It's hard to say. I've run Lehigh 150's over 3030 with no issue. I also run 195tmk's at 2707 again with no issues. I can run those loads charge wise in LC 118lr Lapua or 1x fired FC or Winchester with just some longer case prep for domestic or LC brass. CFE has run well for me with these 2 bullets I'm sure you could run 168's really fast too. For me, a comp load needs to shoot 20-40 shot groups, not 3-5 shot groups. Running hard doesn't stay together in my rifle like 2635fps.
Yeah next time I go out I’m going to run 100 rounds at 49.5 & 49gr & check to see if it stays consistent. I shot 15 rounds in total at 49.5gr cfe lapua 168 eldm combo & got the same results of around 2930
 

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Yeah next time I go out I’m going to run 100 rounds at 49.5 & 49gr & check to see if it stays consistent. I shot 15 rounds in total at 49.5gr cfe lapua 168 eldm combo & got the same results of around 2930
Three years ago I did some load development for CFE 223 for a 20" factory barrel in 90° weather for a 175 SMK and was averaging about 50 fps higher that what QuickLoad calculated. When I plug in a 168 TMK, the calculated velocity jumps up by ~100 fps. Then when I put in 49.5 grs, with the TMK the velocity is at 2799 fps (pressure at an extremely hot 74,392 psi) . . . for a 20" barrel. For a 24" barrel, that high pressure stays the same, but MV goes to 2897 fps..

I dunno . . . it seems to me that, basically, no matter what powder you're using, it takes a LOT of pressure to push a 168 gr bullet from a .308 to 2900 fps. :unsure:


2017-5-21  175 SMK CFE223.jpg
 

LAW-DOG

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Three years ago I did some load development for CFE 223 for a 20" factory barrel in 90° weather for a 175 SMK and was averaging about 50 fps higher that what QuickLoad calculated. When I plug in a 168 TMK, the calculated velocity jumps up by ~100 fps. Then when I put in 49.5 grs, with the TMK the velocity is at 2799 fps (pressure at an extremely hot 74,392 psi) . . . for a 20" barrel. For a 24" barrel, that high pressure stays the same, but MV goes to 2897 fps..

I dunno . . . it seems to me that, basically, no matter what powder you're using, it takes a LOT of pressure to push a 168 gr bullet from a .308 to 2900 fps. :unsure:


View attachment 7248964
Yeah it has to be making pressure to get the velocities I’m getting but I’m not seeing it on the brass much until 50gr. When it comes to the tmk bullets I get a lot of pressure signs earlier than smk or eldm. I think the eldm design has a shorter bearing surface & can be pushed harder than the tmk, at least in my experience with 175 & 168 vs the eldm 178 & 168. I’m going to run the same loads again & see what happens. Hodgdon says cfe 168gr 2830 FPS with 60k psi Winchester brass. So I’m 100 FPS faster with in a smaller lapua case with 49.5gr so I know it’s over pressure but I’m not seeing anything that would make me concerned, it’s barely flat primers no other signs. At 50gr I’m getting a little ejector swipe but not too bad no sticky bolt. So a little more testing & I might buy more cfe to see how it does vs the batch I have
 

LAW-DOG

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Three years ago I did some load development for CFE 223 for a 20" factory barrel in 90° weather for a 175 SMK and was averaging about 50 fps higher that what QuickLoad calculated. When I plug in a 168 TMK, the calculated velocity jumps up by ~100 fps. Then when I put in 49.5 grs, with the TMK the velocity is at 2799 fps (pressure at an extremely hot 74,392 psi) . . . for a 20" barrel. For a 24" barrel, that high pressure stays the same, but MV goes to 2897 fps..

I dunno . . . it seems to me that, basically, no matter what powder you're using, it takes a LOT of pressure to push a 168 gr bullet from a .308 to 2900 fps. :unsure:


View attachment 7248964
I wonder what quickload says when you change from 90* to 50* degrees & tmk to eldm & lapua brass. I’m sure that the tmk long bearing surface makes the pressure spike. I think the smk & eldm 168 have a shorter surface & less pressure. If hodgdon is getting 60k psi at 2830 with the 168 & Winchester I would think that mine must not be a lot higher or I would get signs. I really think it’s the brass that’s giving me higher velocity. At 49gr I’m 2880-2900 FPS & 49.5gr 2930. So I’m up 50-70 FPS over what hodgdon is getting at 60k psi. So I think I’m over pressure of 60k but how much I’m not sure but the cases are looking pretty good at 49-49.5 with 49.5 slightly flattened & 50gr showing ejector swipe a little & a little more flat primers than 49.5gr but no stick bolt lift
 

straightshooter1

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Yeah it has to be making pressure to get the velocities I’m getting but I’m not seeing it on the brass much until 50gr. When it comes to the tmk bullets I get a lot of pressure signs earlier than smk or eldm. I think the eldm design has a shorter bearing surface & can be pushed harder than the tmk, at least in my experience with 175 & 168 vs the eldm 178 & 168. I’m going to run the same loads again & see what happens. Hodgdon says cfe 168gr 2830 FPS with 60k psi Winchester brass. So I’m 100 FPS faster with in a smaller lapua case with 49.5gr so I know it’s over pressure but I’m not seeing anything that would make me concerned, it’s barely flat primers no other signs. At 50gr I’m getting a little ejector swipe but not too bad no sticky bolt. So a little more testing & I might buy more cfe to see how it does vs the batch I have
Agree. . . the ELDM is faster than TMK for that shorter bearing surface.

As for Hodgdon saying the CFE 223 running a 168 gr to 2830 fps at 60K psi . . . I've seen that. However that's based on a COAL of 2.80 and through a 1:12, 24" barrel. They say the case is "Winchester", but I don't know if that's referring to the actual manufacturer or just that it's a Winchester .308 case vs. some other configuration like a .308 x 1.75. When put the 2.80 COAL into the QuickLoad app, it shows just short of 2900 fps and pressure at 66,800 psi. When I change the COAL to what you said of 2.910, that's when the velocity drops to ~2812 fps with pressure just under 60K psi. And BTW, I've assumed a FL sized brass with volume of 54.0 gr H2O.

Seems like a good idea to get some more CFE of a different lot to see you how it might compare. It's probably what I'd do, just to be sure.
 

straightshooter1

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I wonder what quickload says when you change from 90* to 50* degrees & tmk to eldm & lapua brass. I’m sure that the tmk long bearing surface makes the pressure spike. I think the smk & eldm 168 have a shorter surface & less pressure. If hodgdon is getting 60k psi at 2830 with the 168 & Winchester I would think that mine must not be a lot higher or I would get signs. I really think it’s the brass that’s giving me higher velocity. At 49gr I’m 2880-2900 FPS & 49.5gr 2930. So I’m up 50-70 FPS over what hodgdon is getting at 60k psi. So I think I’m over pressure of 60k but how much I’m not sure but the cases are looking pretty good at 49-49.5 with 49.5 slightly flattened & 50gr showing ejector swipe a little & a little more flat primers than 49.5gr but no stick bolt lift
In QuickLoad, if I just put in the standard numbers (like for COAL of 2.80, case volume of 56.0 gr H2O, 70°F) 49.5 gr pushing the ELDM, it shows an MV of 2817 with a pressure of 60,005 psi . . . which pretty close to what Hogdon shows for 49grs. If I increase COAL to 2.910, that MV drops to 2760 fps. And that's at 70°F or at 50°F it's 2730 fps.

You've got quite a mystery there. :eek: ☺ Do you know what your case volume is?
 

LAW-DOG

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In QuickLoad, if I just put in the standard numbers (like for COAL of 2.80, case volume of 56.0 gr H2O, 70°F) 49.5 gr pushing the ELDM, it shows an MV of 2817 with a pressure of 60,005 psi . . . which pretty close to what Hogdon shows for 49grs. If I increase COAL to 2.910, that MV drops to 2760 fps. And that's at 70°F or at 50°F it's 2730 fps.

You've got quite a mystery there. :eek: ☺ Do you know what your case volume is?
I’m pretty sure the case volume was right around 54 + or - a little on some cases for lapua & Winchester was close to 56gr I think but I’ll have to recheck that after I size the cases. Another thing I’ve noticed is the 5r rock creek barrels have ran a little faster too than factory barrels, so that might also have something to do with the extra speed
 
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straightshooter1

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I’m pretty sure the case volume was right around 54 + or - a little on some cases for lapua & Winchester was close to 56gr I think but I’ll have to recheck that after I size the cases.
Yeah, I used 54.5 for FL sized Lapua brass (that's what I've measured on more than one lot of their brass). And for Winchester brass, all that I've measured has been at 57.3 - 57.7 grs.

Another thing I’ve noticed is the 5r rock creek barrels have ran a little faster too than factory barrels, so that might also have something to do with the extra speed
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm sure my Krieger SS barrel runs faster than factory also. But I'm not sure just how much more than factory's the higher end barrels tend to run. And the twist rate I mentioned before is a factor too.
 
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LAW-DOG

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Yeah, I used 54.5 for FL sized Lapua brass (that's what I've measured on more than one lot of their brass). And for Winchester brass, all that I've measured has been at 57.3 - 57.7 grs.



Yeah, that's a good point. I'm sure my Krieger SS barrel runs faster than factory also. But I'm not sure just how much more than factory's the higher end barrels tend to run. And the twist rate I mentioned before is a factor too.
I forgot about twist. There’s a lot of factors to think about. My barrel is a rock creek 5r 1:11.25 twist 24in. My barrel was running faster than my brothers factory rem 700p 26in by about 15 FPS when we tested black hills 175 smk. So my barrel is probably a quick one considering my brothers 700p had 2 more inches but mine was still a little faster
 

ubettcha

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My 26" rock creek runs FGMM @ 2704-2720 in the slow lot and 2740-2753 in the faster lot. I get the same velocity whether it's the MS or Lab radar. My brother's 24" 5R runs the same ammo 2565 and 2595 can't remember his ES but it's more than mine and I don't think he hit 2600 once.
 

LAW-DOG

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My 26" rock creek runs FGMM @ 2704-2720 in the slow lot and 2740-2753 in the faster lot. I get the same velocity whether it's the MS or Lab radar. My brother's 24" 5R runs the same ammo 2565 and 2595 can't remember his ES but it's more than mine and I don't think he hit 2600 once.
That’s pretty similar to my experience. My rem 5r 24in was 2600 with 175 fgmm & when replaced with the rock creek 5r 24in it would get around 2670. Must be a combo of a better barrel & tighter chamber
 

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My 26" rock creek runs FGMM @ 2704-2720 in the slow lot and 2740-2753 in the faster lot. I get the same velocity whether it's the MS or Lab radar. My brother's 24" 5R runs the same ammo 2565 and 2595 can't remember his ES but it's more than mine and I don't think he hit 2600 once.
I assume the FGMM you're referring to is a 168 SMK?

168 FGMM in a RPR factory 20" 10:1 barrel Ihad an average of 2616 fps from a Pro Chrono on a nice mild day with temp at 65°F. I think the box said the estimated MV was at 2600 fps (which is probably done with a 24" 12:1 barrel).
 

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I assume the FGMM you're referring to is a 168 SMK?

168 FGMM in a RPR factory 20" 10:1 barrel Ihad an average of 2616 fps from a Pro Chrono on a nice mild day with temp at 65°F. I think the box said the estimated MV was at 2600 fps (which is probably done with a 24" 12:1 barrel).
That was from what we got from 175 fgmm 2570-2600 but closer to 2600 with the rem 5r 24in. The rock creek made 2650-2670 fgmm 175. We switched to black hills 175 because they were as accurate with a much better es. Black hills 175 would run 2600 in the rem 5r & 2670 in the rock creek 24in
 

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That’s pretty similar to my experience. My rem 5r 24in was 2600 with 175 fgmm & when replaced with the rock creek 5r 24in it would get around 2670. Must be a combo of a better barrel & tighter chamber
Just to help with perspective:

Out of my 26" 10:1 Krieger barrel I was averaging 2622 fps with the 175 SMK FGMM . . . again at mild temps (69°F). Measurement done with Mangnetospeed V3
 

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175smk FGMM The FGMM 185jugs I've run 5 bullets so far it's faster but it's 5 shots. 178bthp not eldm runs the same as the slower fgmm slower lots and shoots the same zero. I only ran the single case through the gun. 168's FGMM and the like run 60fps faster as a rule. FWIW the 175's perform as good as a handload for me. My rifle has 4483 rounds as of today. I have a class Sunday and that should be another 130ish by the end of the wknd. I run 168's @ 2635 for my classes. The 175's run better beyond 700 for certain but the 168's are .25-.3 moa and easy to keep in tune. I can shoot this all day long and it will keep them all in the same group. Also I can substitute brass and or bullets without much difference maybe opens to 1/2 moa or slightly higher. When the barrel was fresh I struggled to shoot better than FGMM with a good handload. I was paying 140-160 a case so I shot mostly that. I'd rather shoot than load. Now I can see the difference due to seating but again if i bear down the difference is .1-.2 moa not worth losing 4 hrs loading for 200rds for teaching a class.
Egg shoots stuff like that it's worth it though
 

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Just to help with perspective:

Out of my 26" 10:1 Krieger barrel I was averaging 2622 fps with the 175 SMK FGMM . . . again at mild temps (69°F). Measurement done with Mangnetospeed V3
Is your krieger a 5r rifling or standard. I think the rock creek & bartlien 5r run faster than most. That’s surprising to me about your krieger speeds. My friends 1:12 26in krieger runs 20-30 FPS faster than yours with fgmm 175. We are shooting in the cal dessert where temps are 55 in the morning & 65-70 in the day iin the day in winter & 60-105 in summer
 

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My speeds are shot in 0-45 degrees as a rule I don't shoot in the summer much due to workload. Mine is a slight gain twist ending at 12, 4 groove and was a .299 bore instead of .300. I see pressure earlier but my speeds are very high for the charge.
 

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Is your krieger a 5r rifling or standard. I think the rock creek & bartlien 5r run faster than most. That’s surprising to me about your krieger speeds. My friends 1:12 26in krieger runs 20-30 FPS faster than yours with fgmm 175.
It's a 5r

Since my twist is 1:10, that likely explains a good portion of that difference in speed.

We are shooting in the cal dessert where temps are 55 in the morning & 65-70 in the day iin the day in winter & 60-105 in summer
My shooting is in AZ dessert (around Phoenix) with similar temps. Though summers are . . . a bit warmer! ;)
 

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It's a 5r

Since my twist is 1:10, that likely explains a good portion of that difference in speed.



My shooting is in AZ dessert (around Phoenix) with similar temps. Though summers are . . . a bit warmer! ;)
So going back over my results on my labradar, which is flooded with different cartridges & series. I think that 49gr got 2880 FPS, 49.5gr 2910 FPS, 50gr 2930 FPS in the lapua case. In the Winchester 49gr got 2835 FPS, 49.5gr 2870FPS, & 50gr 2900 FPS. The only thing that makes sense to me is the Winchester had so much more powder space. You can see as the cases started to fill more the fps started coming closer & closer together. In the lapua 49 gr was pretty full but not in the Winchester at all. I need to go back to using notebooks to correlate data from the labradar & use regular paper targets instead of adhesive reactive targets so I can log my results better, just been lazy but it happens when your disabled. After talking to a few local smiths they just said some barrels run faster than others & good 5r barrels seem to be faster than factory barrels by 50-100 FPS & most often 50-70 FPS faster
 

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So going back over my results on my labradar, which is flooded with different cartridges & series. I think that 49gr got 2880 FPS, 49.5gr 2910 FPS, 50gr 2930 FPS in the lapua case. In the Winchester 49gr got 2835 FPS, 49.5gr 2870FPS, & 50gr 2900 FPS. The only thing that makes sense to me is the Winchester had so much more powder space. You can see as the cases started to fill more the fps started coming closer & closer together. In the lapua 49 gr was pretty full but not in the Winchester at all. I need to go back to using notebooks to correlate data from the labradar & use regular paper targets instead of adhesive reactive targets so I can log my results better, just been lazy but it happens when your disabled. After talking to a few local smiths they just said some barrels run faster than others & good 5r barrels seem to be faster than factory barrels by 50-100 FPS & most often 50-70 FPS faster
There are 10 grains on average difference from Winchester to Lapua. Then LC is 5 grains heavier and 3 more if it's M118LR. When I swage the crimp out of LC different lots will have much thicker case head webs to the point I have to adjust the pin depth to swage out the crimp. Those cases run the same speed .6 grains less powder using Rl15 to Lapua.
5r barrels in a factory rifle run a bit faster however a good 4 groove will run just as fast. Speed in a barrel is all about the finish. A good taper in the lap will produce more speed no matter the type of rifling. A good lap will let you pull a vacuum with a patch. These barrels will be fast no matter what.
 

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So going back over my results on my labradar, which is flooded with different cartridges & series. I think that 49gr got 2880 FPS, 49.5gr 2910 FPS, 50gr 2930 FPS in the lapua case. In the Winchester 49gr got 2835 FPS, 49.5gr 2870FPS, & 50gr 2900 FPS. The only thing that makes sense to me is the Winchester had so much more powder space. You can see as the cases started to fill more the fps started coming closer & closer together. In the lapua 49 gr was pretty full but not in the Winchester at all.
You're exactly right. Because Winchester brass has more case capacity/space (due to thinner wall construction) velocity will be less given the same powder charge. To get the same velocity from a Winchester case as something like a Lapua case, one needs to use more powder. However, it's a little more complicated than that as seating depth plays an important part as the amount of power vs. the volume it sits in will determine the pressure pushing the bullet where the velocity comes from. So, because one can put more powder in a Winchester case, one can actually get a little more velocity with it than cases with less volume depending on the amount of powder and the seating depth. MV is really mostly about the pressure curve the particular load produces.

I need to go back to using notebooks to correlate data from the labradar & use regular paper targets instead of adhesive reactive targets so I can log my results better, just been lazy but it happens when your disabled. After talking to a few local smiths they just said some barrels run faster than others & good 5r barrels seem to be faster than factory barrels by 50-100 FPS & most often 50-70 FPS faster
That's my understanding too, that some barrels run faster than others. I would say that has a lot to do with the chamber configuration as the chamber configuration in relation to the cartridge also effects the pressure curve and how it pushes the bullet. Then there's the construction of the bore where some bores diameter's are tighter than others.

Then there's the bullet construction with different bearing surfaces than can affect MV.

lol . . . so many factors involved, almost makes my brain hurt. :eek: ;)

The fastest I've gotten out of my .308 with the 26" Krieger SS barrel was 2793 fps for a 175 Nosler CC bullet pushed by 43.0 gr H4895 and had clear pressure signs. Close to that was a 175 TMK at 2769 fps pushed by 42.0 gr of H4895 (175 SMK was 20 fps slower than the TMK with the same charge). Though I was interested in an accuracy node for a higher velocity, I didn't feel a need to go any higher as around 2670 to 2725 seems to be plenty for shooting 175 gr bullets at 1000 yds.

Maybe one day for fun I'll experiment with some ELD's to see if I might be able to get something like the MV's you're getting. :unsure: :cool:
 

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You're exactly right. Because Winchester brass has more case capacity/space (due to thinner wall construction) velocity will be less given the same powder charge. To get the same velocity from a Winchester case as something like a Lapua case, one needs to use more powder. However, it's a little more complicated than that as seating depth plays an important part as the amount of power vs. the volume it sits in will determine the pressure pushing the bullet where the velocity comes from. So, because one can put more powder in a Winchester case, one can actually get a little more velocity with it than cases with less volume depending on the amount of powder and the seating depth. MV is really mostly about the pressure curve the particular load produces.



That's my understanding too, that some barrels run faster than others. I would say that has a lot to do with the chamber configuration as the chamber configuration in relation to the cartridge also effects the pressure curve and how it pushes the bullet. Then there's the construction of the bore where some bores diameter's are tighter than others.

Then there's the bullet construction with different bearing surfaces than can affect MV.

lol . . . so many factors involved, almost makes my brain hurt. :eek: ;)

The fastest I've gotten out of my .308 with the 26" Krieger SS barrel was 2793 fps for a 175 Nosler CC bullet pushed by 43.0 gr H4895 and had clear pressure signs. Close to that was a 175 TMK at 2769 fps pushed by 42.0 gr of H4895 (175 SMK was 20 fps slower than the TMK with the same charge). Though I was interested in an accuracy node for a higher velocity, I didn't feel a need to go any higher as around 2670 to 2725 seems to be plenty for shooting 175 gr bullets at 1000 yds.

Maybe one day for fun I'll experiment with some ELD's to see if I might be able to get something like the MV's you're getting. :unsure: :cool:
After testing smk, tmk, & elem, the eldm was the fastest with the least pressure signs. Tmk for me had pressure early with varget. I’ll try h4895 with the 175 tmk & see what happens since I still have a lot of them left. Try Winchester & lapua to see if you get different speeds like mine. I built my chamber long so I could use accurate mags 2.95in oal. The long chamber might be why Winchester is usually slower than lapua