.224 Valkyrie

AKGuide

Civilian
Belligerents
Feb 26, 2013
24
7
6
SW Alaska
I forgot to ask: are you experiencing any bullet deformation when seating, especially with R17? My first round was really dented, so I went and got the lapping compound I ordered and it helped quite a bit. I really don't think it has any effect on accuracy, but it just shouldn't be there.
No deformation at all. I am using a forester set. Both fl sizer and seating die. I can see where the bullet contacts the stem but no deformed bullet (bullet looks well supported at contact point). I’ve been using forester dies for other cartridges for a few years and really like their seating dies (fully supported case). I have had a few rounds be hard to chamber and may have to take a little off the bottom of the sizing die. I am hoping rcbs makes a precision mic for this cartridge soon so I can measure headspace and shoulder bump.

Have you tried 90 smk’s as well and what did you get for CBTO if you did?
 

binazone

Private
Minuteman
Dec 23, 2018
18
3
6
No deformation at all. I am using a forester set. Both fl sizer and seating die. I can see where the bullet contacts the stem but no deformed bullet (bullet looks well supported at contact point). I’ve been using forester dies for other cartridges for a few years and really like their seating dies (fully supported case). I have had a few rounds be hard to chamber and may have to take a little off the bottom of the sizing die. I am hoping rcbs makes a precision mic for this cartridge soon so I can measure headspace and shoulder bump.

Have you tried 90 smk’s as well and what did you get for CBTO if you did?
Nice to know about Forster stems. I have some of their other equipment but no dies. Nope,haven't tried the 90s yet, but I will pay closer attention to the data you've posted.
 

Subwrx300

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Jan 15, 2014
964
544
99
Cedar Springs, MI
Thought I would toss up some data for H4350 with 88ELDMs. Ran OCW from 26.2-27.4 at 2.300" OAL. I should note that this barrel was at 100 rounds when I ran the OCW and 150 when I ran the seating depth test. In my experience, flyers don't settle down until around 200-250 rounds through the tube. In fact, you can see the difference below.

H4350 ran from 2702fps to 2800fps out of my 26" barrel. I get about 8.3fps per .1grain increment, and it's quite linear overall. That means if I can keep loads to +- .1gr, I should see an SD around 8-10, which is exactly what I found in the middle groups.

I selected 26.8gr, the largest group of the bunch and worst flyers. But it was also in the low SD node (26.4-27.0gr), had a fairly consistent POI relative to charge below and above. And lastly, had a tight cluster of 3 shots. I thought it would be a good test to my theory of barrel wear and flyers.


20190210_214408.jpg
Note the red circles for the flyers; 100% not me and I think it is bullets that become deformed/damaged by gas port getting tossed or flying apart.

Then ran a seating depth test from 2.240-2.300" in .010" increments. Target was shot left to right (2 groups in first warmup, then 5 shot groups for each seating depth). Interestingly, the flyers I have show up toward the end but are significantly closer to group center and becoming more predictable.

The last two groups are same as first two groups as a control (2.300" with 26.8gr H4350). I do this to see if I have a major change in groups from begining to end of session.
20190210_214211.jpg

As soon as I shot the 2.270" group that is a dead vertical line, I predicted the next group would tighten considerably and BANG! .6", .5", .7 and .6". The red circles flyers are getting much closer to group center and at 2.300" (last two groups) they disappeared.

Will reshoot next weekend to confirm, but this is my new winter load. CFE works great in summer but is too picky with temps at certain nodes, so I'm hoping I can see an improvement in temp sensitivity with this load as weather warms into summer.
 

Subwrx300

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Jan 15, 2014
964
544
99
Cedar Springs, MI
Out of curiosity why H4350 over H4895?
Good question. Couple of reasons:

I've got (3) 8lb jugs I run in my 6.5cm. If I can find a good load for two rifles with same powder, I'm thrilled. Makes my life easier not having to chase down multiple cans of each powder.

Second, after trying Varget, CFE223, Reloader 15, Reloader 16, and RE17, I found the slower powders help my longer barrel quite a bit. I'm on the edge of too long (26") and with the extra slow burn of h4350, I can keep SD low quite easily. I may even cut my barrel back to 22-24" or so as an experiment.

Lastly, temp sensitivity, which has yet to be confirmed in 224V, but in my 6.5CM, my load changes 15 fps from 5 deg F to 85degF, which is outstanding. If the 224V is anything near that I'll be all sorts of happy. CFE is perfect for speed but I have to adjust load up/down .1gr for each 20 deg to stay at the same speed.

H4350 is a moderately compressed load at these charges, which I tend to avoid in a bolt gun but, for gas rifle, it keeps ignition consistent so powder can't move around in case (Just like 25gr Varget on a 69SMK in 223Wylde/556.)
 

JPatzig

Private
Minuteman
Jul 25, 2018
13
5
6
Everyone in the Valkyrie Ascending fb group seemed to love the 80 ELD's with H4895. It ended up working for me too. Think I'm finally going to settle on this combo and tweak the load a bit more. Couldn't believe the readings on 2 and 5.

Bison Armory 24" 6.5t heavy fluted
80 eld-m
H4895
2 x fired FC brass
CCI 400
85 yards (indoor range)
 

Attachments

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
FINALLY got my reloading setup up and running!! Got some loads loaded and will test tonight.
794E7311-FC75-4A2A-9C65-B6EDBFB3EE92.jpeg 5E23786B-3239-499E-ADE3-9AB1965C619B.jpeg 616B96C8-9D7F-47BB-B5F8-3312CEBC8790.jpeg 0BC6501A-1740-4593-A9CF-59C216AB7455.jpeg 33D6B412-608B-46CC-9E17-5B496FF34CB3.jpeg CE1F9501-6185-4C25-AD4D-FFE1B525660C.jpeg

Going to be doing a 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test on using cfe223 80 and 88 eldms and 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test using varget with 80 and 88 eldms. All 40 rounds for the tests are in .1 grain increments.
Using all new stuff, fx120i scale, forester FL sizing without expanding ball, push a neck turning mandrel though and seat the bullets with the forester micrometer seater die.
 

chavezz556

Private
Belligerents
Minuteman
May 21, 2012
292
68
34
34
Panhandle of Idaho
FINALLY got my reloading setup up and running!! Got some loads loaded and will test tonight.
View attachment 7024356 View attachment 7024357 View attachment 7024358 View attachment 7024359 View attachment 7024360 View attachment 7024361

Going to be doing a 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test on using cfe223 80 and 88 eldms and 10 shot on each bullet a Satterlee test using varget with 80 and 88 eldms. All 40 rounds for the tests are in .1 grain increments.
Using all new stuff, fx120i scale, forester FL sizing without expanding ball, push a neck turning mandrel though and seat the bullets with the forester micrometer seater die.

Your ladder should be around 10% of the charge weight... .1 is too close
 

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
10 shot Satterlee test w/ cfe223 .010" off w/ 88eldm and cci450's
25.5- 2704
25.6- 2721
25.7- 2726
25.8- 2672
25.9- 2699
26.0- 2710
26.1- 2777
26.2- 2783
26.3- 2766
26.4- 2766

10 shot Satterlee test w/ cfe223 .010 off w/ 80eldm and cci450's
26.0- 2777
26.1- 2789
26.2- 2824
26.3- 2830
26.4- 2855
26.5- 2861
26.6- 2886
26.7- 2830
26.8- 2879
26.9- 2873

3 shot test w/ 80gr eldms .010" off cci br-4's
25.5- 2732
25.5- 2766
25.5- 2737
av- 2745
es- 34
sd- 18

Varget 10 shot Satterlee test w/ 88eldm cci450, .010" off
23.0- 2525
23.1- 2559
23.2- 2599
23.3- 2534
23.4- 2583
23.5- 2544
23.6- 2619
23.7- 2604
23.8- 2588
23.9- 2604

Varget 10 shot Satterlee test w/ 80eldm, .010" off
24.3- 2732
24.4- 2721
24.5- 2754
24.6- 2743
24.7- 2760
24.8- 2772
24.9- 2807
25.0- 2801
25.1- 2836
25.2- 2849

rem700 with remage conversion, 24" 1-6.5" criterion barrel

No pressure signs yet, I should've gone farther apart between loads but with the 80eldm's I wasn't sure what/where to start.

Very accurate 10 shot tests, 10 shots fell under an 1" with all loads except where I was adjusting for the 80's.

One interesting thing I did was with 6 rounds that I thought was promising for varget 88eldm's that didn't turn out. I took 3 apart(very very very hard to get apart, lots of bullet tension), weighed the charge to the correct charge(1 was close but other 2 not so much) which I weighed out using a cheaper Lyman scale before, resized the brass without the expander ball and kept the same primer in, used a turning mandrel to get correct neck tension, loaded corrected charge of powder and topped off with the same bullet that came out. Run out was noticeable between the 2; 3 shot loadings....

old reloads without corrected changes of 23.6 of varget
1-2629
2-2609
3-2624
av-2620
es-20
sd-10

Corrected reloads with actual charge from the fx120i or 23.6gr of varget
1-2609
2-2619
3-2604
av-2610
es-15
sd-7

Will post the videos of runout between the 2 loadings above and grouping of the 2.
 
Last edited:

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
Can’t post videos of my runout test will......but on the redone loads, there was .002”- a hair <.002” runout, bottom group

On the old loads with the Redding premium deluxe die set there was .002”, .003” and .004” runout, those are the the top group

The random fully prepped brass had tested had less than .0015” runout on them. Very interesting figures I had gotten I thought.
 

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
Ok guys in my bolt gun what do you think I should do here......it’s seems I ran out of space for powder before I have seen pressure signs.....primer pockets are in good shape yet with 6-7 loadings on the same 50 pcs of brass I started with which was once fired in my gun from factory 60gr fed brass. Had a few crack necks but I think that’s from turning the necks and may have been thin there. I have maxed out re15, varget, cfe223 to the point that they was starting to compress and deform the bullet slightly, at that point I rather not go any farther. With the cfe223 I decided to go .2 because it just seemed to never end in finding the velocities I would like and to get where I wanted faster without wasting time/components lol. Chavezz556 was right that it wasn’t far enough apart but I honestly I thought it wouldn’t be long before I seen pressure signs but never really did. Anyway
3AFF3983-2DA3-4E5C-A38F-717F913448A6.png 60224835-D3A7-43B0-95CA-3E69711B861E.png
Where would you settle at one these......bout half a # of varget left and may end up going to h4895 sometime lol, but in the mean time....I’m using what I have for now.
. 42ACBEC1-A701-4198-A729-302C826F9D67.png
Reloader15
 
Last edited:

Subwrx300

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Jan 15, 2014
964
544
99
Cedar Springs, MI
Ok guys in my bolt gun what do you think I should do here......it’s seems I ran out of space for powder before I have seen pressure signs.....primer pockets are in good shape yet with 6-7 loadings on the same 50 pcs of brass I started with which was once fired in my gun from factory 60gr fed brass. Had a few crack necks but I think that’s from turning the necks and may have been thin there. I have maxed out re15, varget, cfe223 to the point that they was starting to compress and deform the bullet slightly, at that point I rather not go any farther. With the cfe223 I decided to go .2 because it just seemed to never end in finding the velocities I would like and to get where I wanted faster without wasting time/components lol. Chavezz556 was right that it wasn’t far enough apart but I honestly I thought it wouldn’t be long before I seen pressure signs but never really did. Anyway
View attachment 7027160 View attachment 7027161
Where would you settle at one these......bout half a # of varget left and may end up going to h4895 sometime lol, but in the mean time....I’m using what I have for now.
. View attachment 7027225
Reloader15
Is this a Saterlee style load test? Eg 1 shot per charge?

I'm not a huge fan of that method because of the tiny sample size per charge. While it may be good for finding pressure signs/max charge for known catridge, it can be less than ideal for newer rounds that you aren't familiar with.

For example, the Varget test has a huge dip in velocity at the second to last charge. The 4th and 3rd highest charges appear to be a "flat" spot in velocity but the huge drop just after that could indicate either poor SD with that powder or a bad charge when loading.

CFE shows consistent increase in pressure and velocity up to max. There seems to be a flat spot near the last three charges but, again, you won't know more until you fire at least 3-5 rounds.

Personally, I've had good success with CFE but it is a bit temp sensitive. With this cartidge though, velocity is nearly everything. Sending an 80gr at 3000+ will make up the deficit in BC compared to the 88/90gr.

I would suggest loading 4 or 5 round strings at .2gr intervals of CFE for the last 5 charges. Use the best SD load and run seating test depth test with 4 rounds each at .015 increments. You will know your charge virtually instantly.
 

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
Is this a Saterlee style load test? Eg 1 shot per charge?

I'm not a huge fan of that method because of the tiny sample size per charge. While it may be good for finding pressure signs/max charge for known catridge, it can be less than ideal for newer rounds that you aren't familiar with.

For example, the Varget test has a huge dip in velocity at the second to last charge. The 4th and 3rd highest charges appear to be a "flat" spot in velocity but the huge drop just after that could indicate either poor SD with that powder or a bad charge when loading.

CFE shows consistent increase in pressure and velocity up to max. There seems to be a flat spot near the last three charges but, again, you won't know more until you fire at least 3-5 rounds.

Personally, I've had good success with CFE but it is a bit temp sensitive. With this cartidge though, velocity is nearly everything. Sending an 80gr at 3000+ will make up the deficit in BC compared to the 88/90gr.

I would suggest loading 4 or 5 round strings at .2gr intervals of CFE for the last 5 charges. Use the best SD load and run seating test depth test with 4 rounds each at .015 increments. You will know your charge virtually instantly.
Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.
 

AKGuide

Civilian
Belligerents
Feb 26, 2013
24
7
6
SW Alaska
Got out today mainly to see what velocity I could get safely.
24” Bison Armory 6.5 twist
Here is my data
17FEB2019 30.6F, 86%H, 30.14inhg
Virgin starline, H4895, GM205MAR, HbN coated 80eld-m @ 1.764” CBTO for 0.040” jump, 2.315”oal
24.3-2820
24.5-2888
24.7-2891
24.9-2895
25.0-2918
25.1-2935
25.2-2953
All brass looks good to go and will keep going up a tenth at a time till I find pressure or the groups open up. It was howling out today so the group might be a fluke we will see for sure in better weather with five shot groups and averages. Hoping for the magical 3000fps mark. I also got my 95smk’s in and will see if the groups continue to hold using previous data and also will load a few with the federal primers for grins.
 

Attachments

Likes: JPatzig

Subwrx300

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Jan 15, 2014
964
544
99
Cedar Springs, MI
Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.
Personally, I'd try to keep the velocity at or above 3000 if you can find good accuracy. That would mean CFE or maybe H4350 with very full case.

I usually load to .2gr increments for 223Rem sized cases on the first pass; then retest best charge -+.1 grain at distance for consistency and POI change.

This is mainly because I know I can keep +-.1 at worst when loading ammo and the smaller case volume makes it more sensitive to load variation. Finding a node that keeps similar POI with small change in charge is more important with small volume cases.

I have a specific method for find solid nodes/charges, but the 224V is definitely a tricky caliber. The powders are either slightly too fast to get good velocity with heavies, too temp sensitive to work in hot/cold, and/or too bulky to get enough slower powder in case without ultra compressed charge.

In my testing, CFE produces the best velocity and good precision but requires different charges for different temps (+-.1gr for each 20 deg away from temp that load was developed).

H4350 has great temp stability but is bulky so it requires a compressed charge and gives up some speed to CFE (about 70-90fps at fastest safe nodes I can find).

These are my two main powders now and unless we (collectively) find another powder that is the equivalent to the 6.5CM/42gr H4350/140 ELD or the 556/25GR Varget/69SMK like load, I'll keep working to find an 88/90gr combo that is consistent across multiple barrels.
 

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
Personally, I'd try to keep the velocity at or above 3000 if you can find good accuracy. That would mean CFE or maybe H4350 with very full case.

I usually load to .2gr increments for 223Rem sized cases on the first pass; then retest best charge -+.1 grain at distance for consistency and POI change.

This is mainly because I know I can keep +-.1 at worst when loading ammo and the smaller case volume makes it more sensitive to load variation. Finding a node that keeps similar POI with small change in charge is more important with small volume cases.

I have a specific method for find solid nodes/charges, but the 224V is definitely a tricky caliber. The powders are either slightly too fast to get good velocity with heavies, too temp sensitive to work in hot/cold, and/or too bulky to get enough slower powder in case without ultra compressed charge.

In my testing, CFE produces the best velocity and good precision but requires different charges for different temps (+-.1gr for each 20 deg away from temp that load was developed).

H4350 has great temp stability but is bulky so it requires a compressed charge and gives up some speed to CFE (about 70-90fps at fastest safe nodes I can find).

These are my two main powders now and unless we (collectively) find another powder that is the equivalent to the 6.5CM/42gr H4350/140 ELD or the 556/25GR Varget/69SMK like load, I'll keep working to find an 88/90gr combo that is consistent across multiple barrels.
Thanks very much, sounds good!!! I'll probably deal with cfe223 for winter use and I'll get H4895 here soon I suppose. I'll find what charge will work for me using cfe223 for now and move on to the better....
 

chavezz556

Private
Belligerents
Minuteman
May 21, 2012
292
68
34
34
Panhandle of Idaho
Yes yes it is lol it was suggested to me so I tried it.......in your opinion what is the better way? .2, .3.....?
Ya cfe223 is sensitive......I will try what you had said.
What would you do for the varget?
Would you mess with the reloader15? I ran out of case compacity at around 26.0-26.1gr.
Did you see pressure at the top of the cfe load? If not load up 10 rounds on the top end. If you got SD's in the single digits and groups look good.. you're done

I would suggest going back and doing it at .3 grain increments.. but you might be fine where you're at...
 

IHFarmer07

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
144
33
34
Did you see pressure at the top of the cfe load? If not load up 10 rounds on the top end. If you got SD's in the single digits and groups look good.. you're done

I would suggest going back and doing it at .3 grain increments.. but you might be fine where you're at...
I did see on the primers in the last 2 -3 loadings that where the firing pin struck, it was raised ever so slightly around the firing pin. Like it was starting to crater, just enough to catch my finger nail a little. I didn’t mention it before because I didn’t catch it before.....have to look at it in just the right light and scratch it before you can tell.
I’ll load some up 10 up and also maybe go down from top charge in .3 to whatever later...depends on the 10 first....I did buy more primers, of course cci450 but I also got cci br-4, cci41and will be getting Federal GMM primers hopefully Tuesday as the local place sells out of them rather quickly. The nice thing about local, they sell by the 100 or 1000 and usually get 200 to play before I get 1000. Maybe play with those here and there, so far the cci450 ‘s have been very good.
 
Last edited: