.224 Valkyrie

IHFarmer07

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Yesterday you posted this. What speeds were you getting?


Today you post this:


Can you explain the sudden reversal of opinion between yesterday and today?
Yeah that’s a good question lol.....It was my choice to buy cfe223 but I did end up buying some because of others stating good results using it.
 

Subwrx300

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I have experienced extreme variations in speed with CFE223, like 200 + fps variations with the same charge. Im interested in trying Re 16
Well I have shot cfe223 with 88s, and 80s almost exclusively for the 224V and have not seen anything close to 200fps swings. My worst ES have been in the 40s but are usually around 25-35. Today I shot 75 plus rounds; mid session I chronoed a few strings and had one odd slow round of 2650 but rest averaged 2710 at 40deg F.

Sounds like something else is going on to see that big a swing in velocities with same charge, like mixed brass lots, carbon ring, bad Chrono readings etc.

I should add that I have over 1500 rounds of CFE 223 through my Valkyrie and have chronoed 300+ of those during various practice sessions.
 

JesseB81

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No reversal. I shot awesome groups at 100 yards with my new setup. I have also seen extreme spreads of over 200 FPS. My velocity with77SMT over 26.5g CFE223 average was 2880. I had some 2700s and a few over 3000. I loaded up a bunch more of the same load without any crimp and seated in .010” increments OTL out to .080” I used a magnetospeed. So ya... trying it again. Obviously could have been me. If people are getting good results with R17 on the heavier bullet offerings I suggest trying R16 because it is much more temperature stable. I am only shooting the lighter bullets during break in. I have no real intention of staying with the 77s
 
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Shadow knows

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Anyone tried H414 yet?
I am going to load some up and some RL15

CFE223 and PP Varmint didn’t fair real well. Got 748 to group .457 but hit 2665 FPS. I may stick with it and try CCI 400’s vs 450’s but out of a 22” barrel I was hoping for 2750.
 

JesseB81

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Do you all think primers would have an impact on es and sd numbers?
Thinking of trying that also.
There is an article floating around where cci standard vs benchrest showed no difference in performance. I have since changed from BR to standard. The magnum primer increased pressure drastically while miminamaly gaining velocity so that’s not a good choice in my opinion.
 

IHFarmer07

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There is an article floating around where cci standard vs benchrest showed no difference in performance. I have since changed from BR to standard. The magnum primer increased pressure drastically while miminamaly gaining velocity so that’s not a good choice in my opinion.
I see. What about different brands like Winchester or federal?
 

Shadow knows

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There is an article floating around where cci standard vs benchrest showed no difference in performance. I have since changed from BR to standard. The magnum primer increased pressure drastically while miminamaly gaining velocity so that’s not a good choice in my opinion.
That’s why I am going back to CCI 400’s.

Interested in the neck bushing size, my RCBS is putting a ton of neck tension on. I had to pull about 25 last night with the hammer and these were by far the worst I have ever pulled in 18 different rounds I load for (rifle/handgun).
 

JesseB81

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I see. What about different brands like Winchester or federal?
Just going by word of mouth from other reloaders that I trust who taught me... cci primers are “stronger” as such that Winchester and federal primers can be pierced with warm loads where cci will not. Again I have no proof of this but cci has treated me well and I plan on sticking with them. I’d love to hear what others think.
 
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Shadow knows

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Just going by word of mouth from other reloaders that I trust who taught me... cci primers are “stronger” as such that Winchester and federal primers can be pierced with warm loads where cci will not. Again I have no proof of this but cci has treated me well and I plan on sticking with them. I’d love to hear what others think.
Agree
 
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chavezz556

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Ok I finally have some data to post for this thread:
Weather:
34*F
29.74 inHg
58% relative humidity
density altitude was going between ~1340-1416
overall length-2.318
base to ogive-1.764
.002 off the lands
Varget:
22.0gr
1-2473
2-2473
3-2501
4-2534
5-2464
average-2489
ES-70
SD-28
22.6gr
1-2574
2-2515
3-2525
4-2534
average-2537
ES-59
Sd-25
23gr
1-2599
2-2569
3-2588
4-2569
average-2581
ES-30
SD-14
Reloader 15
22.0gr
1-2415
2-2415
3-2419
4-2437
5-2442
average-2425
ES-27
SD-12
22.6
1-2433
2-2446
3-2460
4-2442
5-2450
average-2446
es-27
Sd-9
23gr
1-2520
2-2520
3-2492
4-2496
5-2482
average-2502
es-38
sd-17

What are your guys' thoughts.....es and sd isn't the best, thinking of going .010 off with the better of the loads then I may do the same loads with CCI450's after I get the 50rds I have primed with CCI400. Let me know, this is the first time reloading so any guidance would be appreciated.
What scale are you using? Those ES seem m really high...

Also you should do the Satterlee test on both powders... then mess with seating depth once you find your accuracy node.. also U can go higher if u dont see pressure signs at the top
 
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chavezz556

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How are you guys trimming your brass? I looked all over for a 224 valkyrie specific case length trimmer. I prefer Lee since you can hook it right up a drill
 

IHFarmer07

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What scale are you using? Those ES seem m really high...

Also you should do the Satterlee test on both powders... then mess with seating depth once you find your accuracy node.. also U can go higher if u dont see pressure signs at the top
Ah it’s a Lyman pro touch 1500 scale digital readout.
What is the scatterlee test? Is that the video?
So far with the 450 primers the most I’ve seen for pressure is light ejector marks, I seen more damage to cases with cci 400’s than with 450’s.
Would going up and or down .1gr to find the sweet spot work you think?
 
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CJS-6.5

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I have experienced extreme variations in speed with CFE223, like 200 + fps variations with the same charge. Im interested in trying Re 16
What cartridge? You are saying the opposite thing here.
 

CJS-6.5

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I have a 24” 1:7 gas gun that shoots the factory 88 and 75gr pretty well. I don’t have any reloading equipment anymore because i sold it off after losing interest in bulk reloading.

Is there a significant difference between habdloading 88s or even 80s? My intention would be to just buy starline brass and load them up. I wouldn’t worry about picking up brass and reloading. Just looking for 1 time max performance use.
Reloading is all about why you wouldn't do it. See above.
 

chavezz556

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Ah it’s a Lyman pro touch 1500 scale digital readout.
What is the scatterlee test? Is that the video?
So far with the 450 primers the most I’ve seen for pressure is light ejector marks, I seen more damage to cases with cci 400’s than with 450’s.
Would going up and or down .1gr to find the sweet spot work you think?
Watch the video... you are looking for a flat spot.. I mean you can go above max load just stop when you see pressure.. once you find your flat spot .. you load ten at the higher end of the flat spot the shoot 2x 5 shot groups and chrono all 10 to get your ...average, SD and ES.. if you like what you see stick with that load and be done
 
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JesseB81

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What cartridge? You are saying the opposite thing here.
To clarify: I have a criterion 24" heavy profile with a +2 gas system and an advanced LWRC bolt. I shot all the loads over a magnetospeed using the thinnest supplied shim with the sensor on H2. While shooting the 77s I got anywhere from 2800fps to over 3000fps with cfe223 26.5g. I made it clear that this data could have very well been my reloading error.

Today I tried some 77s and 88s. The first two strings of 77s I got an SD of over 100. I took the thin shim off the magnetospeed and replaced it with a thin piece of cardboard. I adjusted the sensor from H2 to R29 which provided errors. I adjusted the sensor to H1 which picked up. The data showed the next several strings to have ES from 8-11.

The 88s liked 25.5g of cfe223 giving 2700fps with an SD of 9.

Moral of the story: even though the magneto picked up my bullets the data was spurious.
 

Subwrx300

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So I shot a load test today with the 224V to wrap up a project that tests SD vs Charge weights with increasingly heavy bullets. Essentially, I wanted to see if SD sweet spots were relatively "linear" for similar weight bullets and, if as you increase bullet weight, does the SD node move linearly with charge weights (vs lighter/heavier bullets). The results are pretty cool.

We know that heavier bullets need lighter charges, but looking at the data this way, you should be able to see the two distinct bands for decent SD's. If I wanted to to find a load with good SD and haven't shot that bullet before, I could load +- .2 on either side of a predicted "band" and see whether its worth pursuing for accuracy.

Two charts: one for charge weight vs Bullet using Velocity and the other is the SD. Thought it would be useful for anyone that wanted to see how CFE reacts to increasing bullet weights and charges. The dashed lines are "theoretical bullets" that I use to space the data approximately inline with linear increase in bullet weight. While I did shoot groups during this test, it wasn't to find a precision/group size correlation; Most bullets were shot at -.010 from lands and precision can be improved with seating depths. Average group ( 4shot) were around .7" but I found I had a loose suppressor for some of the most of the Hornady 73, and 75 grain bullets.

CFE Velocity and SD Graph.PNG


Will be posting groups from above later today.
 

Subwrx300

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To clarify: I have a criterion 24" heavy profile with a +2 gas system and an advanced LWRC bolt. I shot all the loads over a magnetospeed using the thinnest supplied shim with the sensor on H2. While shooting the 77s I got anywhere from 2800fps to over 3000fps with cfe223 26.5g. I made it clear that this data could have very well been my reloading error.

Today I tried some 77s and 88s. The first two strings of 77s I got an SD of over 100. I took the thin shim off the magnetospeed and replaced it with a thin piece of cardboard. I adjusted the sensor from H2 to R29 which provided errors. I adjusted the sensor to H1 which picked up. The data showed the next several strings to have ES from 8-11.

The 88s liked 25.5g of cfe223 giving 2700fps with an SD of 9.

Moral of the story: even though the magneto picked up my bullets the data was spurious.
Sweet. Ironically, I just posted a bunch of data on the 88's and other bullets. Your speed and SD's line up with nodes I found in my barrel (26").

FWIW, It seems like there is an SD node with the 77's around 27-27.2 and likely another one around 26.2-26.4.
 
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Rimfiremike

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Thanks for sharing... planning to build a 224 Valkyrie and have a bunch of CFE 223 for other calibers that I want to start experimenting with. Will keep an eye on this thread!
 

Shadow knows

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Shot some more yesterday. Ran with some benchmark finally but started having issues with my Labrador so I didn’t get much info just brass readings.
Running bartlin 22” with 88’s. About the only powder I found that shot half moa was 748 with CCI 450’s. Yesterday I ran a ladder with 748 and 400’s and it was pretty open.

I am going to run another ladder test on benchmark again but with 450’s and see if I can get it to settle down on the psi.

Ignore the hole with the mark, that was from h414.

Edit: AR platform
 

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Rimfiremike

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Agree... that is some real nice shooting!
Plan to try a similar recipe with some 85gr RDF's I just ordered. If they don't shoot well in my setup, will move over to the 88 ELDM's next.
 

JesseB81

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Nice shooting!
AR or bolt?
AR that I built. This was at thunder valley in Ohio yesterday. We had a few hours of good shooting in the morning before the wind really picked up and the rain came. We played on steel for a while and walked down range to hang targets. By the time I saw this group and made adjustments the wind really picked up. The following groups were 2.5” tall but anywhere from 8” to 12” wide.
 

Subwrx300

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Wanted to post some quick data on a few powders with CFE 223 and H4350. I was actually pretty impressed with H4350 from a precision standpoint. Found a great (but slightly slow) node shown below. I've highlighted the loads that show best promise.

Weather was very cold and be EXTRA cautious with the upper charges as they are significantly OVER book max's by all sources. I've run through Quick load and the highest charges shown below are still between 55k and 57k. (see photo below on CFE QL vs chrono.)

I was VERY surprised to see that QL predicted the exact velocity: 4 shots avg 2848 fps from LabRadar. I've loaded 80 rounds at 26.8gr to see if they hold up at distance over multiple shots.

H4350 Velocity by Charge (26" +3 Gas Gun) 30 Deg F
88 ELDM, Fed Brass, Rem 7 /12 Primers, 2.300" OAL
  • 26.0 - 2618 SD 13 Very good group .66" @ 136yds (.46 MOA) But relatively slow
  • 26.2 - 2630 SD 17
  • 26.4 - 2641 SD 14
  • 26.6 - 2651 SD 12 SUPER Precise (.22" 4 shot)
  • 26.8 - ~2670 Estimated Compressed (Hodgdon Max) Also Very Precise (.5" 4 Shot)
  • 27 - 2706 SD 24 Compressed Max +
  • 27.2 - 2713 SD 13 Compressed Max ++
  • 27.4 - 2747 SD 7.2 Very Compressed Max +++ Great SD, .7" 4-shot
  • 27.5 ( didn't load this but I think this will be good SD and very precise) testing later.
CFE223 Velocity by Charge (26" +3 Gas Gun) 30 Deg F
88 ELDM, Fed Brass, Rem 7 /12 Primers, 2.275" OAL
  • 25.0 - 2653 SD 19
  • 25.2 - 2683 SD 9 Groups Well .5-.8"
  • 25.4 - 2700 SD 8 Groups Well .5-.8"
  • 25.6 - 2727 SD 12
  • 25.8 - 2751 SD 9
  • 26.0 - 2767 SD 22
  • 26.2 - 2815 SD 10 Has potential
  • 26.4 - 2815 SD 14
  • 26.6 - 2826 SD 7
  • 26.8 - 2848 SD 8 Precise .44" Group
20181229_174210.jpg20181229_174159.jpg20181229_172301.jpg
 

Subwrx300

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88g ELDM over 24.5g CFE223 .025” OTL @ 2701 FPS SD 7
1000 yard group
Low, but damn good
Just checking, but you said 24.5gr @ 2700 but a few posts earlier you had 25.5gr to get 2700... was your last post a typo? Just put up data from a 26" running from 25gr-26.6gr and 2700 happens for me around 25.4. Just want to make sure we keep data straight! :)
 

FletchHimself

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Just curious. What is everyone using for dies? I’m thinking about getting a Forster ultra, but I’m torn between a new sizing die. I don’t know if I should keep using my standard rcbs or get a FL bushing die from someone.
 

IHFarmer07

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Just curious. What is everyone using for dies? I’m thinking about getting a Forster ultra, but I’m torn between a new sizing die. I don’t know if I should keep using my standard rcbs or get a FL bushing die from someone.
I’m using the Redding deluxe micrometer 3 die set....I like them but I also just purchased 22 cal mandrels to iron things out better.....probably if I had to do it over again (being new to reloading, so check with others on their opinions) I would do a FL bushing die from either whidden or forester and get a forester seating die with either the micrometer or the one without and maybe leave it at that.

I plan to test out what size I have without the buttons and then run a mandrel through to get my sized brass then seat em. What do some of you all think about that, sounds like it can work? Let me know please
 
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Shadow knows

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Standard RCBS set but the neck tension is a lot. Every time I have to pull bullets they are the worst I have ever loaded including crimped rounds.
I ordered a RCBS bushing die from midway yesterday since there is a rebate thru tomorrow. Ordered a couple of bushings depending on which brass I want to use
 

Rimfiremike

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I plan to get the full length Forster benchrest die set and then send a few fired cases and the sizing die back to Forster to get it honed out so the brass is not getting over worked.

I have neck bushing dies in some other wildcat calibers that I form brass for, but want to try a FL die that is a close match to my chamber with the Valkyrie.

I know the Forster dies are good, but if anyone has had good luck sending dies to be honed out by somewhere other than Forster, please share your experience.
 

FletchHimself

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I asked what dies you guys were using because I was gifted an xl 650. I want to get the most concentricity I can, but I don’t know the best way to do that without turning the necks. I’ve read a floating tool head with standard does is a good way to go. I’ve heard a mandrel die is good, but I would need a separate toolhead for the sizing process. I’ve heard dies with floating stems and a floating toolhead is not good for concentricity. I’ve been reloading on my rock chucker, never a progressive, and I’m a bit overwhelmed with the different ways to go on the 650. I don’t know anyone with a progressive that reloads rifles, so, needless to say....I need some help.
 

Rimfiremike

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I have an XL650 as well, but have kept its focus on pistol and 223 reloading. I haven't done any measurements on the loaded rounds for concentricity but the 223 loads from the XL650/RL550 will keep groups in the 1/4 to 1/2 moa range if I sort the LC brass to keep it the same headstamp and year. (Plenty good for the gopher patch!)
The 223 dies I am using are Lee dies with the Dillon powder die/measure and a Lee factory crimp die.
I would recommend trying standard dies with a standard tool head and see how well the rounds turn out. If they are not meeting your expectations, try a floating toolhead next. (Can never have too many toolheads for your Dillions!)
 

FletchHimself

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I have an XL650 as well, but have kept its focus on pistol and 223 reloading. I haven't done any measurements on the loaded rounds for concentricity but the 223 loads from the XL650/RL550 will keep groups in the 1/4 to 1/2 moa range if I sort the LC brass to keep it the same headstamp and year. (Plenty good for the gopher patch!)
The 223 dies I am using are Lee dies with the Dillon powder die/measure and a Lee factory crimp die.
I would recommend trying standard dies with a standard tool head and see how well the rounds turn out. If they are not meeting your expectations, try a floating toolhead next. (Can never have too many toolheads for your Dillions!)
I think I will take this advice. I’ll buy a concentricity gauge from Sinclair and a Forster bench rest die
For a 650, a Forster fl sizing die with no expander button and a 21st century Turning mandrel is the way to get for best concentricity.
What is a turning mandrel? I was thinking of buying the bench rest set from Forster anyway.
 

padom

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It may be better with your experience go just get a Forster Bench Rest FL sizing die.

A lot of us use mandrels in our Dillons to give .002 neck tension and runout of .001 or less. We also use dedicated brass prep toolheads setup for each caliber. I use Whidden floating die toolheads with Uniquetek clamp kits on every toolhead. My TIR is .001 or less with actual runout .0005 or less
 

IHFarmer07

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Ok, been seeing a lot on the Valkyrie reloading fb site that the 80eld'm's are the best way to go and I was tossing around the idea to quitting where I am with the 88gr and going to the 80gr eld-m and maybe playing around with the 95gr smk. From the ballistics I have put together with the 80's, 88's, 90 smk's and the 95 smk's, using approximately the data that I have found others getting, the 95's are the cats ass for way beyond 1300yrds.

Now question is if a person wants short to long range performance with the better ballistics and flat shooting what should I do? Stick it out and figure out the 88gr eld's and use them? It seems the 88 gr eld don't perform as I thought they would/could compared to other options.
 

padom

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88 ELD-M / CFE223 were the first combo I tried in my 22" Ultramatch and they shoot outstanding. Ive tested them out to 700yds and they are extremely accurate. Very happy with them. CFE223 is my only concern so I decided to try H4895 today with 80 ELD-M. I am impressed with the wide node and velocity matches my 26" 223 Wylde 80 ELD-M bolt gun load. Seating depth test up next for the 80 ELD's then load confirmation out to 700yd after that.


 
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Rimfiremike

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Those numbers look very good for the 80gr ELD-M!
I am about to get started loading in the next week for the 224 Valkyrie in a new bolt gun I'm putting together.
I got a good buy on some 85gr RDF's, but was planning to try some 88gr ELD-M's as well, but now I'm thinking I may try the 80's first.
Have a bunch of CFE223 on hand already, but may need to try some H4895.
 

IHFarmer07

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Yeah I've got the 88s to be very accurate and work very well, the fastest I could get them to go was + or -2750 in a 24" 1-6.5 twist bolt gun. According to my ballistics that I have came up with a person would have to shoot the 88s 3000fps or more to get close to the 80's.
Most guys on the fb site are getting 2800+ easy. Some are at 3000fps with h4895 or 8208 xbr toped with 80gr eld's.
 

padom

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Yeah I've got the 88s to be very accurate and work very well, the fastest I could get them to go was + or -2750 in a 24" 1-6.5 twist bolt gun. According to my ballistics that I have came up with a person would have to shoot the 88s 3000fps or more to get close to the 80's.
Most guys on the fb site are getting 2800+ easy. Some are at 3000fps with h4895 or 8208 xbr toped with 80gr eld's.
I started seeing pressure at 25.1 and 25.4....I'll keep my brass life anyday over 100fps and blowing out pockets in short order.
 
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