.223 trainer-experienced input needed!!!

Xander

Private
Minuteman
Nov 21, 2019
3
0
2
Hi guys...first post.. sorry to bump an old thread... Anyone have any data for the 73g ELD, loaded to AR15 mag length? Just recently built a budget 223 Trainer using a Ruger American Predator barreled action, with an Indian Creek Design MOFO chassis fitted for standard AR15 mags. I have two excellent loads with Varget at the moment:

- 75g BTHP, Hornady brass, cci450, 23.9g Varget, cbto: 1.850 (.005 off)= 2680fps

-73g ELD, Hornady brass, cci450, 24.1g Varget, cbto: 1.860 (.020 off)= 2750fps

I can load the 75 BT in mostly all AR15 mags without any issue at all. The 73s are loaded just about to max as far as the mags I use. Was thinking to try H4895, Varget is starting to become scarce in my area. If anyone has any recommendations it would be greatly appreciated.
 

260284

Sergeant
Belligerents
Feb 15, 2017
1,425
462
189
Kansas
Hi guys...first post.. sorry to bump an old thread... Anyone have any data for the 73g ELD, loaded to AR15 mag length? Just recently built a budget 223 Trainer using a Ruger American Predator barreled action, with an Indian Creek Design MOFO chassis fitted for standard AR15 mags. I have two excellent loads with Varget at the moment:

- 75g BTHP, Hornady brass, cci450, 23.9g Varget, cbto: 1.850 (.005 off)= 2680fps

-73g ELD, Hornady brass, cci450, 24.1g Varget, cbto: 1.860 (.020 off)= 2750fps

I can load the 75 BT in mostly all AR15 mags without any issue at all. The 73s are loaded just about to max as far as the mags I use. Was thinking to try H4895, Varget is starting to become scarce in my area. If anyone has any recommendations it would be greatly appreciated.
I have a ladder loaded with CFE223 for my AR with the 73gr ELDM, just haven't had time to shoot it. Using CFE so I can load it on my 550, otherwise I would use H4895. Really like H4895 with the 75 ELDM in AICS mag in my Tikka Varmint, don't see why it wouldn't work with the 73 gr. I get 3035 fps in the Tikka.

Hodgdon shows start at 22.5 and max at 24.5 for a 75gr bullet. I would start at 23 or so. I got better speed with H4895 than with Varget.
 

padom

SuperMod
Staff member
Mar 13, 2013
8,944
3,582
219
Southeastern, Pennsylvania
23.2-23.8 8208 XBR. Pretty known node for AR's. My load is 23.6g 8208. What AR mags are you using??? You can get ASC SS AR15 mags and get a longer COAL than Pmags
 

bunsen27

ACME Labs
Belligerents
Jan 2, 2011
1,459
191
169
Raleigh, NC
Hi guys...first post.. sorry to bump an old thread... Anyone have any data for the 73g ELD, loaded to AR15 mag length? Just recently built a budget 223 Trainer using a Ruger American Predator barreled action, with an Indian Creek Design MOFO chassis fitted for standard AR15 mags. I have two excellent loads with Varget at the moment:

- 75g BTHP, Hornady brass, cci450, 23.9g Varget, cbto: 1.850 (.005 off)= 2680fps

-73g ELD, Hornady brass, cci450, 24.1g Varget, cbto: 1.860 (.020 off)= 2750fps

I can load the 75 BT in mostly all AR15 mags without any issue at all. The 73s are loaded just about to max as far as the mags I use. Was thinking to try H4895, Varget is starting to become scarce in my area. If anyone has any recommendations it would be greatly appreciated.
I run TAC for my 73gr & 75gr ELDM's. Good speed and great accuracy! It's a ball powder so metering is pretty easy.

Definitely pick up the ASC mags PaDom mentioned. They will give you 2.316in OAL to work with.

 

Xander

Private
Minuteman
Nov 21, 2019
3
0
2
Thank you for the replies! I will look into TAC and also 8208. Yes, I run the ASC mags. Mainly use them for the 73g loadings. I will say, its fun (and kinda funny) to stuff 30 rounds of the 75BTs in a standard Pmag and go to town when plinking with a bolt gun, lol. I actually have to extend my bipod legs a few clicks and use one of my bigger rear bags, just to get the mag in.

If I try out any new loadings Ill report back with stats. Thanks again!!
 

DarinC

Private
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 7, 2018
166
60
34
I run TAC for my 73gr & 75gr ELDM's. Good speed and great accuracy! It's a ball powder so metering is pretty easy.

Definitely pick up the ASC mags PaDom mentioned. They will give you 2.316in OAL to work with.

goddamn. Thank you guys for those.
 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Belligerents
Aug 10, 2001
7,647
3,201
219
73
Arizona, good place for me...
My "Trainer" is actually my MR600 F T/R match rifle, Savage (11VT) based, 24"long, 1:9"twist. It uses a Choate Savage Tactical stock (I added 3 3/4" Stock extensions, I'm 6' 5 1/2" tall). There's a clone bipod mounted, a 20MOA EGW Extended base, and a Bushnell 4.5-18x40 AR Drop Zone 308 BDC scope. So far, I've never found a need for a chassis. This rifle is duplicated in all details except for 308 chambering and 308 BDC.

It's an entry level F T/R Rifle that had been shot in National MR 600yd Competition. Before I retired from Comp, it was my 300yd Club Match rifle several times a month. With those semi-monthly matches, my trainer rifle work was kept to a minimum.

Load is Starline brass, CCI BR-4 Primer, Hornady 75gr HPBT-Match, over 23.5gr-23.7gr of Varget. This load is also used in my Stag Model 6 Super Varminter 24", 1:8".

The 308 uses 175SMK, 42.2gr IMR-4064 with CCI BR-2, and Starline brass. My PA-10 uses the HDY 168gr HPBT-Match, and 43.5gr of MR-464 with the 308 BDC scope.

It's an entry level F T/R Rifle that had been shot in National MR 600yd Competition. Before I retired from Comp, it was my 300yd Club Match rifle several times a month.

I have no complaints.

Greg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sam19kilo

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
Here is my current load for my trainer that has been serving me awesome:
LC Brass w/ BR-4primers
24.1gr H4895
80gr ELD 1.970” ogive, jumpin .005”
2930-2950fps, SDs stay in the single digits
Shooting out of a Criterion remage 1/7” twist, 26” barrel
Here is my 5 shot group at 400yds
 

Attachments

Dschapp44

Major Hide Member
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2018
1,426
179
69
I’m running a 24 inch 7 twist Bartlien. Ended up using a 80 ELDM with 25 grains of H4895 for 3030 fps. BC in my kestrel got me 1st round impacts out to 1000 yards. Plus side is the dope matches my 105 6 Dasher load within a tenth out to 1000

The 80.5 Berger load is interchangeable, but because the hornady are so long I had to dremel out the front of the accurate mag.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

PAYDIRT

Adair County Long Guns
Belligerents
Oct 22, 2017
822
432
69
N.E. Okla.
Here is my current load for my trainer that has been serving me awesome:
LC Brass w/ BR-4primers
24.1gr H4895
80gr ELD 1.970” ogive, jumpin .005”
2930-2950fps, SDs stay in the single digits
Shooting out of a Criterion remage 1/7” twist, 26” barrel
Here is my 5 shot group at 400yds
What chamber?
 

Dschapp44

Major Hide Member
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2018
1,426
179
69
It’s a long freebore 223 chamber not sure exactly. Andy at the firm spun it up
 

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
I’m running a 24 inch 7 twist Bartlien. Ended up using a 80 ELDM with 25 grains of H4895 for 3030 fps. BC in my kestrel got me 1st round impacts out to 1000 yards. Plus side is the dope matches my 105 6 Dasher load within a tenth out to 1000

The 80.5 Berger load is interchangeable, but because the hornady are so long I had to dremel out the front of the accurate mag.
Dude that is solid!!!! I just re visited my 88ELDs and got them to 2905fps and they are awesome. SD of 8 with lake city brass
 
  • Like
Reactions: PracticalTactical

Dschapp44

Major Hide Member
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2018
1,426
179
69
Dude that is solid!!!! I just re visited my 88ELDs and got them to 2905fps and they are awesome. SD of 8 with lake city brass
I’ve been meaning to try them. What powder and how much?
 

stello1001

Professional Newb
Belligerents
Feb 20, 2017
2,261
1,150
219
Corpus Christi TX
So I know it's been a while since the first posts were made (those on the first page) but it seems a big majority were stating they use the 75 bthp. I'm sure now everyone is probably using some thing heavier or ballistically better. Is there any reason why that bullet could be better than a 73 ELDM being that they have almost identical BC values? I would assume the 73 being lighter, can be pushed faster.
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
3,054
2,451
219
40
Colorado Springs, CO
So I know it's been a while since the first posts were made (those on the first page) but it seems a big majority were stating they use the 75 bthp. I'm sure now everyone is probably using some thing heavier or ballistically better. Is there any reason why that bullet could be better than a 73 ELDM being that they have almost identical BC values? I would assume the 73 being lighter, can be pushed faster.
Still using the 75 BTHPs. More consistent. Cheaper. And I bought two bulk 3500ct packs. Also try to avoid plastic tipped bullets in mass bullet handling like bulk packs, bullet feeders, and ammo can storage
 

bunsen27

ACME Labs
Belligerents
Jan 2, 2011
1,459
191
169
Raleigh, NC
So I know it's been a while since the first posts were made (those on the first page) but it seems a big majority were stating they use the 75 bthp. I'm sure now everyone is probably using some thing heavier or ballistically better. Is there any reason why that bullet could be better than a 73 ELDM being that they have almost identical BC values? I would assume the 73 being lighter, can be pushed faster.
I use both 73gr & 75gr. My load is the same charge weight and velocity is nearly identical. If you run the numbers between them they are indeed very close out to a certain distance (~550yds), then the 75gr will pull ahead with less wind drift and less drop. At 1k it's 50in less drop and 28in less drift in a 10ph cross wind.

The 73gr was originally designed to be loaded to AR-15 magazine length so the ogive is different than the 75gr. On a side note I've found the 73gr to be EXTREMELY effective on woodchcks and PDogs with nearly all being DRT (dead right there) from fragmenting whereas the 75' tend to blow through.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stello1001

stello1001

Professional Newb
Belligerents
Feb 20, 2017
2,261
1,150
219
Corpus Christi TX
I use both 73gr & 75gr. My load is the same charge weight and velocity is nearly identical. If you run the numbers between them they are indeed very close out to a certain distance (~550yds), then the 75gr will pull ahead with less wind drift and less drop. At 1k it's 50in less drop and 28in less drift in a 10ph cross wind.

The 73gr was originally designed to be loaded to AR-15 magazine length so the ogive is different than the 75gr. On a side note I've found the 73gr to be EXTREMELY effective on woodchcks and PDogs with nearly all being DRT (dead right there) from fragmenting whereas the 75' tend to blow through.
The reason for me asking is because I have a 26" 9 twist barrel. Both seem to shoot well @ my elevation, 220 ish above sea level. I figured the 9 twist would favor the 73 better since it's lighter. I did my testing in 80 degree weather so I'm concerned a bit about buying a boat load of the heavier only to realize that when temps drop, they will shoot like shit.

I don't reload though. So I've tried those in factory Hornady ammo. The BTHP were loaded in the hornady black line of ammo. I suppose I could buy the Hornady match for better consistency out @ distance. I know the Black ammo is considered lower grade budget ammo.
For what it's worth though, 77 SMK loaded in Fiocchi ammo were also shooting good out of my 9 twist. Again though, this was in really hot weather. I suspect when the air temp drops and becomes more dense, my accuracy with those could turn sour.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sam19kilo

PAYDIRT

Adair County Long Guns
Belligerents
Oct 22, 2017
822
432
69
N.E. Okla.
The reason for me asking is because I have a 26" 9 twist barrel. Both seem to shoot well @ my elevation, 220 ish above sea level. I figured the 9 twist would favor the 73 better since it's lighter. I did my testing in 80 degree weather so I'm concerned a bit about buying a boat load of the heavier only to realize that when temps drop, they will shoot like shit.

I don't reload though. So I've tried those in factory Hornady ammo. The BTHP were loaded in the hornady black line of ammo. I suppose I could buy the Hornady match for better consistency out @ distance. I know the Black ammo is considered lower grade budget ammo.
For what it's worth though, 77 SMK loaded in Fiocchi ammo were also shooting good out of my 9 twist. Again though, this was in really hot weather. I suspect when the air temp drops and becomes more dense, my accuracy with those could turn sour.
I got by with a 20" 1/9 with both. Cold weather too.
 

bunsen27

ACME Labs
Belligerents
Jan 2, 2011
1,459
191
169
Raleigh, NC
The reason for me asking is because I have a 26" 9 twist barrel. Both seem to shoot well @ my elevation, 220 ish above sea level. I figured the 9 twist would favor the 73 better since it's lighter. I did my testing in 80 degree weather so I'm concerned a bit about buying a boat load of the heavier only to realize that when temps drop, they will shoot like shit.

I don't reload though. So I've tried those in factory Hornady ammo. The BTHP were loaded in the hornady black line of ammo. I suppose I could buy the Hornady match for better consistency out @ distance. I know the Black ammo is considered lower grade budget ammo.
For what it's worth though, 77 SMK loaded in Fiocchi ammo were also shooting good out of my 9 twist. Again though, this was in really hot weather. I suspect when the air temp drops and becomes more dense, my accuracy with those could turn sour.
With a 26" barrel you should be able to push it fast enough (3k). Also have you verified your barrel actually is 1 in 9"? I have a 26" Savage barrel marked 1 in 9" that actually measured 1 in 8.25" and shoots the 73's lights out. It will shoot the 77's in Black Hills ammo as well. I'm in NC so also a lower elevation. Berger's stability calculator gives the 75gr ELDM "marginal stability". YMMV

 

stello1001

Professional Newb
Belligerents
Feb 20, 2017
2,261
1,150
219
Corpus Christi TX
With a 26" barrel you should be able to push it fast enough (3k). Also have you verified your barrel actually is 1 in 9"? I have a 26" Savage barrel marked 1 in 9" that actually measured 1 in 8.25" and shoots the 73's lights out. It will shoot the 77's in Black Hills ammo as well. I'm in NC so also a lower elevation. Berger's stability calculator gives the 75gr ELDM "marginal stability". YMMV

I have not verified but thanks for reminding. If I have time tomorrow, I'll take the rifle out and do so. It's a win70 that I've been able to date back to '92 to maybe '93 based on its SN. These only came in either 12 twist or 9 twist. It couldn't hurt to verify though so that's on my to do list now.

Yes, the 26" length definitely helps speed the bullet up, thus spinning it faster. However, I'm stuck to factory ammo only as I do not have anywhere to setup for reloading, at least not at this point in life. If I remember correctly, factory ammo was coming out of the muzzle right around 2820 ish. This was with the 75s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sam19kilo

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
These last comments bring up a huge question, which bullet to run?
88ELDs going 2900fps
80ELDs going 2935fps (Berger VLD 80s go the same speed)
75ELDs going 3000fps
 

Dschapp44

Major Hide Member
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2018
1,426
179
69
These last comments bring up a huge question, which bullet to run?
88ELDs going 2900fps
80ELDs going 2935fps (Berger VLD 80s go the same speed)
75ELDs going 3000fps
If you shoot PRS then the 75 since that meets the tactical class rules. Otherwise it’s a wash since all the bullets should preform equal and they are all about the same price
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sam19kilo

PracticalTactical

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
May 13, 2019
280
133
49
I wouldn't say the other bullets perform equal. There is a significant difference in BC between them. I think the 88 ELD is around .545 G1 BC.

Don't forget the new 90 grain A Tip. Expensive as they may be, they claim a .585 G1 BC.

I think you could get away with a 1:7 for the 90 A Tip, but probably 1:6.5 for the 223 would nail it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sam19kilo

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
@PracticalTactical @Dschapp44 thats the only other thing would be the higher BC right?
I have some 90SMK but the BC isn’t great. Right now the 80s going 2930 have been sooooo fun to shoot but looking back at a couple past comments, people can get 3000fps with an 80 and the data on that is pretty awesome, 7.2mils for 1000yds. I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I really enjoy testing bullets and doing load data so that’s why I try a bunch of bullets. I might give some ATIPs a try. Would be hilarious this fancy ATIP bullet in some lake city brass 😂😂
 

padom

SuperMod
Staff member
Mar 13, 2013
8,944
3,582
219
Southeastern, Pennsylvania

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
You must have some of the old non-pointed 90smk with the G1 BC 0.504?? The new pointed 90smk are fucking awesome and have a G1 BC of 0.563. They are my go to bullet in 220TB running them with a mild load @ 3040. 0.5moa was easy when I tested them at 900yds a few weeks ago. Elevation was dead center of target with 6.7mil out of a 26" 1:7 Bartlein.
Once I get home I’ll see what box I have. I haven’t done the Satterlee test with them yet, might just steal my 88ELDs load and try that with 10rds
 

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
You must have some of the old non-pointed 90smk with the G1 BC 0.504?? The new pointed 90smk are fucking awesome and have a G1 BC of 0.563. They are my go to bullet in 220TB running them with a mild load @ 3040. 0.5moa was easy when I tested them at 900yds a few weeks ago. Elevation was dead center of target with 6.7mil out of a 26" 1:7 Bartlein.
I’m not sure, it doesn’t even say on the box lol
 

Attachments

PAYDIRT

Adair County Long Guns
Belligerents
Oct 22, 2017
822
432
69
N.E. Okla.
You guys are way ahead of me, so I'll ask what's possible with a 28" Wylde chamber running 80 eldm's? I'm hoping to get 3000ish. I'm 1100 altitude, 1-8 or 1-7?
 

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
You guys are way ahead of me, so I'll ask what's possible with a 28" Wylde chamber running 80 eldm's? I'm hoping to get 3000ish. I'm 1100 altitude, 1-8 or 1-7?
1/7 twist I prefer but some guys have same luck with a 1/8. I’m not sure how long you will be able to seat the bullets, measure your lands and I’m sure one of us will help guide you. with that chamber therefore don’t know if you can get the velocities that high but if you find a node getting the 80s going 2800-2850 I promise you will be happy. I’m assuming that’s what you can reach if you Don’t have any extra freebore.
 

FishDr

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 10, 2014
863
210
49
West KY
I used @padom advise on the 75 ELDm and my “trainer” rifle is my favorite “competition rifle” out to 800 or so. I don’t feel handicapped. I do have a fast barrel tho -
 
  • Like
Reactions: padom

PracticalTactical

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
May 13, 2019
280
133
49
I started running 1:8 with 80 SMKs at 3,000 FPS for F Class 20 + something years ago and they were great for a long time. Easy to tune and accurate.

These days they are still great, but I'm drawn to the newer heavier high BC stuff. (and longer throats)

I think of BC like this...

Fire two bullets the same speed, bullet A has a .450 G1 BC and bullet B has a .550 G1 BC...

The 450 yard wind drift of bullet A in MOA or Mils will equal the 550 yard wind drift of bullet B. (Not inches of wind drift, angular wind drift)

The 450 yard velocity of bullet A will equal the 550 yard velocity of bullet B.

That 90 SMK is interesting. I don't know how I missed that higher BC, but I will get some and try them out compared to the 88 ELD Match.
 
Last edited:

PAYDIRT

Adair County Long Guns
Belligerents
Oct 22, 2017
822
432
69
N.E. Okla.
Th
1/7 twist I prefer but some guys have same luck with a 1/8. I’m not sure how long you will be able to seat the bullets, measure your lands and I’m sure one of us will help guide you. with that chamber therefore don’t know if you can get the velocities that high but if you find a node getting the 80s going 2800-2850 I promise you will be happy. I’m assuming that’s what you can reach if you Don’t have any extra freebore.
The barrel isn't ordered yet, I'm still, shooting a 1-9 20", 75 bthp @ 2800ish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stello1001

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
I’m running a 24 inch 7 twist Bartlien. Ended up using a 80 ELDM with 25 grains of H4895 for 3030 fps. BC in my kestrel got me 1st round impacts out to 1000 yards. Plus side is the dope matches my 105 6 Dasher load within a tenth out to 1000

The 80.5 Berger load is interchangeable, but because the hornady are so long I had to dremel out the front of the accurate mag.
So this data sheet had me so intrigued I decided to work up mine more and got the 80ELDs to 3030fps without pressure signs 25gr H4895, and half a minute @100yds,SD of 12. Are load data was almost exact lol DISCLAIMER ***** I worked up the load by .1gr increments, don’t copy****
 
  • Like
Reactions: FishDr

Dschapp44

Major Hide Member
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2018
1,426
179
69
So this data sheet had me so intrigued I decided to work up mine more and got the 80ELDs to 3030fps without pressure signs 25gr H4895, and half a minute @100yds,SD of 12. Are load data was almost exact lol DISCLAIMER ***** I worked up the load by .1gr increments, don’t copy****
That’s pretty wild that it ended up being identical. My load is rain safe so I just called it good and didn’t do a higher ladder.

I’ve been trying to find a better Bullet option for a .223 but at this speed its just 7.7 MILs to 1000. That is quite impressive from a regular 223
 

Sam19kilo

Got the Rona’
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2019
250
64
34
Cheyenne, WY
That’s pretty wild. I’ve been trying to find a better option for a .223 but at this speed it 7.7 MILs to 1000. That is quite impressive from a regular 223
I haven’t water tested it yet but I had no idea the capabilities of the .223 with bigger bullets. It’s amazing
 

PracticalTactical

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
May 13, 2019
280
133
49
If you run fire formed cases with neck resize only and weight sort the brass, and weigh powder with a good 3 decimal place scale, you can really keep your SDs under control.

The 223 is such a small case, that any small variation represents a large percentage of change, so really make an effort to keep things as identical as possible and you'll really get the best of it.

I buy once fired brass about 3,000 at a time and do a full process on all of it, including anneal in salt bath. I size them twice, once with a standard die, then again with a small base die. Then I weigh every single case, and with a sharpie I write the weight on each case. After that I sort them into lots of 100 of the closest weight and those cases stay in that lot forever.

Basically it takes some time, but in the end I have poor mans match quality brass that is more consistent than more expensive new brass..

After it gets fire formed, I either neck resize only, or just do a minimum shoulder bump, depending on how many times it's been fired.

I have a trick that I use to keep the necks parallel. (Yes necks get a taper when you size them) When I size the necks I start with a bushing that is a few thousandths larger than my final bushing. Then I test if the bullet will hold or not. Cases that will hold go in one pile and cases that are still sloppy go in another pile. Then I do it all again with the next bushing smaller, and repeat until all are sized to hold a bullet.

Outside of neck turning, it's the best way I've found to keep neck tension as close as possible.

Or, you could neck turn and really milk it. I know most guys wont bother though, but I've done that as well.

They say matches are won and lost on the reloading bench. So if that's got any truth to it, doing things like this are what it takes.
 
Last edited: