.223 or 22LR trainer

jram

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 27, 2018
117
31
28
Saginaw, TX
#1
Good Evening,

I’ve been looking for an excuse for a new rifle and think a “trainer” that I can afford to shoot more often would be the perfect justification. I would appreciate thoughts and opinions on which caliber would be better and how important having a matching stock and trigger on the trainer are. Thanks!
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#2
I have a Vudoo that’s very similar to my creedmoor. The Vudoo is fun as shit but not really a trainer IMO.

I used the same justification when I paid over 4K for a .22.

A .223 is my next rifle though because most of my shooting is under 600 yards and I waste money shooting my creedmoor.

.22 out to 350 pretty easy.
.223 out to 1000 pretty easy.
6.5 creed out to 1600. Not too easy lol.
 

BJames

Something witty
Jan 20, 2014
86
27
18
Alaska
#6
How about instead of building a Vudoo, buy a CZ in the manners, tacticool, whatever. Then build the training rig in 223. Cake, meet ice cream. 😁
 
Likes: Jeeper48

SporterII

Full Member
Nov 23, 2006
1,213
32
48
63
Central Fl. USA
#7
I sold my last CZ 452 during the 22 ammo collectors hoard situation.
Bought a 700 5R in 223, mounted a NSX and a Timney. Simple quick loads found with SMK"s.
Do a lot with it.
That said I have about a case of good ammo still and a pre ordered T1X. The rimfire will get a rimfire Scope and remain "a 22".
 
Jan 16, 2018
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Midwest, SD
#8
I find myself over correcting for wind a lot when I switch from my 223 to 6.5 creed.

The 223 is fun as hell and I say get one cuz it’s fun but also allocate enough budget to stay up to snuff on your match caliber.
 
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TimK

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 13, 2010
1,155
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52
Woodland Park, CO
www.timkulincabinetry.com
#9
If I had to choose, the .22 would come first. I only need 250 yards to get excellent practice. Shoot, even 150 is enough to really force you to hold some wind.

I've gotten in an endless loop with .22's now (I have 4 trainers) so I haven't built a .223 yet. It's a great idea I fully intend to do at some point.
 

m6z

Private
Mar 2, 2013
732
169
43
Joplin, MO
#10
I have a bad habit of thinking like that as well..

If you've got money for a "trainer" and all the extras that go along with it..

You've got money to shoot your primary rifle! Shoot the rifle you have.

Saying that, my next rifle purchase will be a Vudoo.
 
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Feb 13, 2017
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#11
I will say that holding 5 miles of wind to hit a plate at 350 is pretty crazy.

I shock people every time I take the Vudoo out. They see me at the 300 yard range and think I’m crazy. Then I start shooting suporessed and all they hear is a slight ting.
 

jram

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 27, 2018
117
31
28
Saginaw, TX
#12
Thanks for the responses guys, these have been great and pretty funny because if I’m honest ill know I’ll end up finding a reason to “need” both. I’m leaning towards the 22LR for now so I can run dot drills at a local range just to stay in practice.
 

Dthomas3523

Blind Squirrel
Jan 31, 2018
2,156
867
113
South Texas
#13
I’m also in the “both” crowd if you can afford it.

I use my vudoo for training (and 22 matches).

I use my .223 to save barrel life on my 6creed at shorter range matches.
 
May 30, 2017
56
7
8
Pittsburgh, PA
#14
If you have any indoor ranges nearby the winter will go a lot quicker if you have a .22lr to enjoy at the (hopefully) heated indoor range.
I'm actually considering joining a winter rifle league this year.
 

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,623
863
113
Arizona, good place for me...
#15
I think the .223 is more favorable as a training caliber than the .22LR, but that's because I handload. With the .22LR, I give over whatever advantage handloading provides to the luck of the draw with .22LR ammo.

I have a pair of absolutely identical bolt guns chambered in .223 and .308. While it's nice to have the same setup, I don't place much store in such self-limitations; and think a shooter should be able to shoot a rifle to its full capability despite a lack of similarity to other rifles.

IMHO, the shooter's skills should be flexible enough that identical rifles should not be needed; and for my purposes, the .223 isn't a trainer, it's an F T/R match rifle for 600yd and in. The .308 is for F T/R out to 1000yd, and gets the call when winds pick up in the .223's preferred envelope.

Template:

Savage 11VT .223/.308 (Cabelas Savage 10T alternative)
Choate Tactical Stock
EGW 20MOA Extended Rail Mount
Vortex 30mm Med height 6-screw Rings
Mueller 8-32x40 Side Focus Target Dot Scope

Greg
 
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Likes: Graywolf.260
Apr 22, 2017
371
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#16
In my opinion a "trainer" is a excuse to buy another rifle. No one has convinced me shooting a 22lr set up like their precision rifle makes them a better shooter at distance with their precision rifle. Everyone uses cost of ammunition as a excuse to build a "trainer" and maybe that works with you wife but after you spend over $5000 on that "trainer" thats a lot of precision rifle ammo down range.
I saw this fad with 3 gunners years ago building 3 gun trainers.
If you want a Vudoo 22lr, buy one but don't call it a "trainer"
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Lincoln, Nebraska
#17
I'm in agreement w/ everyone else. 22lr is the most economical way to practice the fundamentals, but recoil management and reading the wind are definitely different for a 22lr vs a centerfire of any kind. For recoil management and reading the wind w/ closer results to the 6mm or 6.5mm variants, a 223 is better to use, especially past 300yds. I use both 22lr and 223 to train up. But, like others have said, you still need to know your wind holds for the round you shoot in competition.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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#18
In my opinion a "trainer" is a excuse to buy another rifle. No one has convinced me shooting a 22lr set up like their precision rifle makes them a better shooter at distance with their precision rifle. Everyone uses cost of ammunition as a excuse to build a "trainer" and maybe that works with you wife but after you spend over $5000 on that "trainer" thats a lot of precision rifle ammo down range.
I saw this fad with 3 gunners years ago building 3 gun trainers.
If you want a Vudoo 22lr, buy one but don't call it a "trainer"
I can shoot 100 rounds in 60 minutes with a rimfire over barricades and I don't have to wait for the barrel to cool at all. I also don't have to pack up and drive to a range or load ammo. I also don't have to worry about shooting the barrel out and gunsmithing costs after the fact. I've put enough rounds through the rimfire trainer in the last few months to burn out at least one 6mm barrel. With ammo and barrel costs for 1500 rounds, a hot 6mm is going to run me about $1500 or so. Ammo and barrel costs for the rimfire, $150, or literally 1/10 of the cost of my 6x47. I also don't have time to go to the range all the time, so knocking out a 50 round box of ammo from some barricades in my back yard during lunch or after work is much more effective practice time for me. Sure beats brass prep LOL
 

beetroot

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 10, 2018
116
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#19
Other than the obvious savings in ammo costs the biggest advantage is you can get good practice with wind calls and holdovers at a 100-200yard range, where as with a centerfire you really need 400+ yards.
If you have a suppressor and run subs means you can shoot in places that you wouldn't dream of shooting your Creedmoor etc.

With a trainer you don't need an exact replica of you main rifle, just something good enough that allows you to practice barricades or sling shooting or funny positions as well as wind calling.
Its great being able to shoot 100 shots in 30mins from a 22LR, not something I get to do with my 260 or 223.

In my opinion a "trainer" is a excuse to buy another rifle. No one has convinced me shooting a 22lr set up like their precision rifle makes them a better shooter at distance with their precision rifle. Everyone uses cost of ammunition as a excuse to build a "trainer" and maybe that works with you wife but after you spend over $5000 on that "trainer" thats a lot of precision rifle ammo down range.
I saw this fad with 3 gunners years ago building 3 gun trainers.
If you want a Vudoo 22lr, buy one but don't call it a "trainer"
 

beetroot

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 10, 2018
116
60
28
#20
Other than the obvious savings in ammo costs the biggest advantage is you can get good practice with wind calls and holdovers at a 100-200yard range, where as with a centerfire you really need 400+ yards.
If you have a suppressor and run subs means you can shoot in places that you wouldn't dream of shooting your Creedmoor etc.

With a trainer you don't need an exact replica of you main rifle, just something good enough that allows you to practice barricades or sling shooting or funny positions as well as wind calling.
Its great being able to shoot 100 shots in 30mins from a 22LR, not something I get to do with my 260 or 223.

In my opinion a "trainer" is a excuse to buy another rifle. No one has convinced me shooting a 22lr set up like their precision rifle makes them a better shooter at distance with their precision rifle. Everyone uses cost of ammunition as a excuse to build a "trainer" and maybe that works with you wife but after you spend over $5000 on that "trainer" thats a lot of precision rifle ammo down range.
I saw this fad with 3 gunners years ago building 3 gun trainers.
If you want a Vudoo 22lr, buy one but don't call it a "trainer"
 
Likes: lawofsavage

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,739
478
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#21
You guys can take the trainer concept a step farther.

PCP air rifles. Practice in your yard or in your basement. It's the fundamentals of marksmanship, timing, trigger control, follow through, calling your shot, watching where you hit. Trigger time is more important than you'd think! This is fun and useful supplemental training.

Myself and two friends do this, we all agree that practice with the PCP's have made us better shooters. And I'm talking separate from shooting our rimfires.

Pellets have a low BC, .030 G1 region, only go from 600 to 1000 fps, they drop and drift a lot so those turrets and/or reticle holdovers get a work out. If you think hitting a 1.5" spinner at 100Y is hard to hit with a 22rf, well try it with a 20ftlb PCP. You'll learn to read wind!

It's 4 mils drop to 100Y with my 17 cal PCP, not 1.6 mils like my 22rf.

BTW my MAC 1 USFT will put down sub 1/2 groups at 50Y, gotta be calm though, because the drift is 4 times more than the 22.

Match grade pellets are $14 for 500.

Just saying
 
Likes: kthomas
Mar 12, 2013
1,117
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#22
You guys can take the trainer concept a step farther.

PCP air rifles. Practice in your yard or in your basement. It's the fundamentals of marksmanship, timing, trigger control, follow through, calling your shot, watching where you hit. Trigger time is more important than you'd think! This is fun and useful supplemental training.

Myself and two friends do this, we all agree that practice with the PCP's have made us better shooters. And I'm talking separate from shooting our rimfires.

Pellets have a low BC, .030 G1 region, only go from 600 to 1000 fps, they drop and drift a lot so those turrets and/or reticle holdovers get a work out. If you think hitting a 1.5" spinner at 100Y is hard to hit with a 22rf, well try it with a 20ftlb PCP. You'll learn to read wind!

It's 4 mils drop to 100Y with my 17 cal PCP, not 1.6 mils like my 22rf.

BTW my MAC 1 USFT will put down sub 1/2 groups at 50Y, gotta be calm though, because the drift is 4 times more than the 22.

Match grade pellets are $14 for 500.

Just saying
Yep, I used an air rifle for a trainer a few years ago. Then I moved onto a Scatt trainer. I still like the 22lr the best though. All are really good alternatives to a centerfire rifle if you are just working on positions, foot work / transitions, etc. I suppose you can do the same dry firing without any feedback, but I get bored with it really quickly.
 
Likes: steve123

jram

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 27, 2018
117
31
28
Saginaw, TX
#23
A Voodoo is definitely too spendy for me. I’m at a point where I have a budget for ammo and range fees, but not for new equipment. So whatever I end up doing it will likely invole selling an extra scope to fund. I’ve been looking at the CZ 455 tacticool today and think that would work great. Heck I’m even considering a heavy barrel upper receiver on my AR as a trainer, but the air gun is something I’m going to dig into. A lot of great input, thanks!
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,739
478
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#25
Yep, I used an air rifle for a trainer a few years ago. Then I moved onto a Scatt trainer. I still like the 22lr the best though. All are really good alternatives to a centerfire rifle if you are just working on positions, foot work / transitions, etc. I suppose you can do the same dry firing without any feedback, but I get bored with it really quickly.
I played with the Scatt at SHOT this year, great training aid! But yes I'd get bored too, actually I get bored when I shoot alone, it's so much more fun training with friends! Kind of like track days with the sport bike, racing with your friends, I miss those days!
 
Apr 22, 2017
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#26
All kidding aside, something like a CZ or Vudoo could be a great aid helping with fundamentals and barricade practice, ect.

Iv'e looked at both rifles and keep coming back to the Vudoo thinking the superior accuracy is a must in building confidence and improving weaknesses.
 

Dthomas3523

Blind Squirrel
Jan 31, 2018
2,156
867
113
South Texas
#27
All kidding aside, something like a CZ or Vudoo could be a great aid helping with fundamentals and barricade practice, ect.

Iv'e looked at both rifles and keep coming back to the Vudoo thinking the superior accuracy is a must in building confidence and improving weaknesses.
Vudoo would be the best rifle purchase you’ll ever make.
 
Likes: tex68w

Dthomas3523

Blind Squirrel
Jan 31, 2018
2,156
867
113
South Texas
#29
16.5 works perfectly fine, but it’s a bit short looking in most chassis without a suppressor. I was running an 18” and used it out to 305 yds on 4” plate without much of a problem (14mil elevation and 2-2.5 mil wind though).

I’m picking up my new 22” mtu tomorrow. Only reason I went with this is to mimic my centerfire more closely. I don’t expect to see any difference in performance.
 

just browsing

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 18, 2017
513
143
43
Philadelphia, PA
#31
Depends how you define training, but both have their uses.

I have an Impact action with 6mm and .223 barrels and bolts for each... I simply switch them out based on what I’m doing. 6mm for matches, .223 for basically anything else. Re-zeroing does not take much, basically a couple tenths here or there but overall, it’s consistent so long as the barrels are torqued to the same spec every time. This keeps the platform the same for “training” and competitive situations, and also saves some $$$ too, rather than having to build a separate training rifle.

The .22LR is extremely fun, cheap to shoot, and certainly helps sharpen your fundamentals. That being said, I don’t consider it much of a trainer, as other than being able to shoot off of barricades etc. at closer targets, that’s really where the similarities end. Recoil, corrections, and the overall feel of the rimfire is obviously very different from anything resembling your match rifle.

So my advice would be to first decide what you are wanting to do with it, and then allow that usage to dictate what comes first.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#32
I chose an 18” barrel and I have shot probably 500 rounds in two months already. This thing eats up ammo.

I will say that it doesn’t make you focus on fundamentals more then you would think. If I get sloppy with pressure on the rifle or not “driving” the bipod it will shoot high and the groups will be large. If I really drive the rifle and focus I can shoot under MOA at 100 yards with just about any ammo.

The .22 actually makes the rifle jump more then you would ever imagine. Mine is in a Manners PRS2, Vortex PAT Gen II, Harris bipod, 18” Kukri profile.

You can watch the bullets all the way to the target and the cross hairs will flinch pretty bad when the shot breaks. I think this is from the firing pin spring in combination with the round going off. Regardless the gun does move when fired. I matter how much you try and prevent it.

Watching your hits at 300 yards allows you to actually pay attention to the reticle and make your corrections. When your hold 2.5 mills plus for wind you meant quick to pay attention. I find myself not watching that well with my centerfire. 1FF6E6F5-FA11-498B-A434-40DBFC0710BC.jpeg
 
Likes: tex68w
Jun 6, 2013
444
47
28
Illinois
#35
I have both a 223 trainer and a vudoo
The vudoo is shot 10x more and is an exact replica of my match rifle. It is an awesome rifle in every way, same weight same mag size same balance , I shoot multiple distance stages off different obstacles and it is great training.
I have a 25” m24/40 vudoo and a 20” MTU
The 20” balances very well in a prs2 and the 25”does in a KMW sentinel.
They are worth every penny and other 22s flat out don’t compare, at least not for a trainer.
 

jram

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 27, 2018
117
31
28
Saginaw, TX
#38
Guys thanks for all the input, I’m going with .223. I decided the easiest route would be to put a .223 barrel on my savage. Whether it really matters or not, I do want it to feel close to my rem 700 with ptg bolt so I put a ptg savage bolt handle on it. I like it a lot, and yes I chose the blue bolt knob! I will pick up the barrel after I see some Black Friday sale prices next month. Here’s pics: A1CB9104-5C2B-4D32-8B5E-F602458598BB.jpeg 1C60A95A-B5E5-408E-8067-F2B0F5694DFE.jpeg