.223 - 5.56

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
6,952
3,307
113
50
MA
Sorry to be looking for an easy path.....

I am new to .223 reloading and over the months have lucked into a bunch of good powders - AR Comp, CFE 223, 8208XBR, Varget, TAC.

I tried the OCW route but. I've been handicapped by only having iron sights at this time. I have a 1-8X on order to help get some better marksmanship than my eyes and irons can provide.

But time is wasting and I need to change my S1050 over to load some other calibers. So while I have proper OCW loads ready to go when I get my scope I want to make some respectable plinking ammo.

I have 8 pounds of CFE on hand and I want to go to town with the S1050.

Any good loads for CFE223 combined with

77 Nosler CC
16 inch 1/7 chrome lined
2.26 COAL
WSRP
Head stamp sorted by year mil brass WCC and LC

I've fired up CFE loads between 23.2 to 24.4 (over max) without signs of pressure just really couldn't see a load that stood out as consistent.

Any good experience appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Nov 7, 2009
913
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Houston, Texas USA
Sorry to be looking for an easy path.....


Any good loads for CFE223 combined with

77 Nosler CC
16 inch 1/7 chrome lined
2.26 COAL
WSRP
Head stamp sorted by year mil brass WCC and LC

I've fired up CFE loads between 23.2 to 24.4 (over max) without signs of pressure just really couldn't see a load that stood out as consistent.

Any good experience appreciated.
Can't help you with CFE but my WOA 20" 1/7 shoots 1/2 MOA with IMR4895 22.9gn CC 77 Tula SRM 2.260.
Maybe your Varget might do better or something a tad slower than the CFE but that is just a guess.
Good Luck.
 
Oct 14, 2009
588
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Tennessee
AR15 with Krieger 20" SS 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube
AR15 with DD 18" CHF S2W 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube

77SMK with cannelure
24.0 Varget
WIN NT once fired, annealed, sized, trimmed
CCI #41
2.245" COAL
Lee FCD set to not quite close all the way.

This load shoots .5MOA from both barrels. Velocity is a little over 2700fps and 2600fps respectively.

I had been getting 1MOA and 100fps slower by seating at 2.26" and using a Redding taper crimp. But shortening to 2.245" and using the Lee FCD gave BIG improvements.
 
Oct 14, 2009
588
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16
50
Tennessee
I got my hands on some red box Black Hills 77gr OTM. That stuff is loaded with pixie dust. Accuracy was great - although not necessarily any better than my handloads above. But the amazing part was the velocity.

2750fps from the 18" DD barrel and 2850 out of the Krieger! That's fully 150fps more than my 24.0 Varget loads above.

Pixie dust!


AR15 with Krieger 20" SS 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube
AR15 with DD 18" CHF S2W 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube

77SMK with cannelure
24.0 Varget
WIN NT once fired, annealed, sized, trimmed
CCI #41
2.245" COAL
Lee FCD set to not quite close all the way.

This load shoots .5MOA from both barrels. Velocity is a little over 2700fps and 2600fps respectively.

I had been getting 1MOA and 100fps slower by seating at 2.26" and using a Redding taper crimp. But shortening to 2.245" and using the Lee FCD gave BIG improvements.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Two Rocks, Western Australia
Hey gents, I plan on rebarreling my 223 12T to a 8T 26" Kreiger and wondering on MV for the 75gr and 80gr projies with H4895 and Varget. I plan on using 80.5gr Bergers for 300-600yd F-Class and the 75gr Amax for longer shots on varmints and steel.

Any help would be great.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 
Jul 8, 2009
633
2
18
Newman Lake WA
Hey gents, I plan on rebarreling my 223 12T to a 8T 26" Kreiger and wondering on MV for the 75gr and 80gr projies with H4895 and Varget. I plan on using 80.5gr Bergers for 300-600yd F-Class and the 75gr Amax for longer shots on varmints and steel.

Any help would be great.
Are you going with a twist in the 1:7-1:7.7 range? I'm guessing that's the twist you'll need to stabilize those bullets. I'm thinking when you work up a load the accuracy node will dictate your velocity. Max load probably won't be the most accurate. Sounds like a great project please post the results.
I see max loads with both both powders & 75 grain Hornady exceed 2900 but no telling where the pressure signs will be at with your rifle. Start low and build up in increments watching for pressure signs.

ETA: I have a note from the reloading forums that reads: "The75gr. Hornady's shoot best between 2750-2800 fps, adjust mv accordingly to find accuracy node".
 
Last edited:
Feb 14, 2010
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Two Rocks, Western Australia
Ill be running an 8T barrel. I dont usually like running max loads and I always choose to run the most accurate so if thats at 2800 then thats fine. I know every barrel is different so will see how I go.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 
May 10, 2011
213
3
18
33
Atlanta area
Does anyone have any field data for the Nosler 64gr Bonded Performance and a 14.5" barrel? Preferably a .223 Wylde chamber.
Wish I would have seen this sooner.

I have tested these bullets with 8208XBR and have seen very good accuracy with them. XBR isn't the best powder for these bullets if going for speed, but it works great since it is very temp insensitive. Out of my 14.5" barrels with 5.56 chambers, I see .75moa, 2680fps, SD 9 with 24.5gr XBR. 25.0 gives .75moa groups at 2750ish, but the SD is up in the 30's and 40's.

The Winchester Ranger loading of this projectile (RA556B) is on par with green tip as far as speed: around 2900fps and around 3moa from 14.5's.
CFE223 supposedly gave Nosler the best speed and accuracy, but I have yet to use any of that powder.
 

colt933

Sergeant
Oct 14, 2009
588
0
16
50
Tennessee
Wouldn't the node depend on the combination of a particular rifle/load combination and not just the load?
20" barrel is all you need to calculate barrel time nodes. And the nodes you might be able to reach with a 20" barrel are:

#1 - 0.684ms = probably impossible, about 3525fps
#2 = 0.752ms = impossible with 77gr bullet, about 3365fps - possibly do-able with lighter bullets
#3 = 0.855ms = near impossible with a 77gr bullet, need about 3000fps = easy with light bullets
#4 = 0.924ms = about 2870fps = might be able to use 75-77gr bullet but probably not, probably easy with 69gr or less
#5 = 1.026ms = about 2600fps = easy with about any weight bullet



I have some spectacular results with Ramshot TAC and 77SMK - however, your results may vary so please start 10% below max and work up:

DD 18" CHF S2W 1/7 barrel, looking for node at .924ms = 2750fps approx
LC Brass, trimmed to 1.745" (for X-Die)
Ramshot TAC 23.7 - 23.9gr seem to be on a good wide node at 2700-2730fps
CCI #41
77SMK W/C
2.245"
LFCD

Group size = 5 shots 1/2 to 5/8 MOA.

This is a solid 100fps gain over my 24gr load of Varget. And the accuracy may be better with TAC, which is a bit of a surprise to me.
I need a jug of Ramshot TAC. Anyone know where any is - that's not $275 delivered?
 

Niles Coyote

Gunny Sergeant
Aug 13, 2007
3,835
182
63
South West, MI
Black Hole Weaponry 18" 1:8 5.56 barrel
77gr Nosler Custom Competition
23.8gr 8208XBR
RP brass
Rem 6.5

2683fps (5fps slower than Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM Seconds on that range trip)
Tried this and 23g and 22.4g today (following dan newberry's .03% reasoning) and came out with two nice groups of 10 each, 23.8 without the pulled last shot went .72 and 23 went into .9 measured ctc. I am using a novoske 18" and used winchester brass and primers. Now to test them both for speed...

Any idea how long your brass is lasting with 23.8?
 

BoilerUP

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 16, 2011
2,749
127
63
35
Clark Co., IN
Tried this and 23g and 22.4g today (following dan newberry's .03% reasoning) and came out with two nice groups of 10 each, 23.8 without the pulled last shot went .72 and 23 went into .9 measured ctc. I am using a novoske 18" and used winchester brass and primers. Now to test them both for speed...

Any idea how long your brass is lasting with 23.8?
To be honest, I ended up stepping back down to 23.5gr 8208XBR after doing a number of comparison groups between it and 23.8; both were easily sub-MOA but the 23.5gr load seemed a hair better in my rifle.

I've got a lot of RP brass that has 5 firings through the AR (and at least 2 through a Savage before that) so brass life isn't too bad, although resistance when seating primers isn't quite what it used to be.

The 23.5gr load was consistently 2670fps over my ProChrono in 2013, but when I shot the 23.5gr load a couple months ago out to 650yd, truing the velocity using drops at 300 and 650 it was doing 2740. That seemed way fast, but I checked the math numerous times and its what I came up with. I've probably got close to 1000rd on this barrel now so maybe it sped up a bit, but it'd be nice to run the thing across a Magnetospeed and see for certain.
 

Niles Coyote

Gunny Sergeant
Aug 13, 2007
3,835
182
63
South West, MI
I'll give 23.5 a try when I speed test 23.8... I was pretty pumped about the groups as I am not much of a AR shooter or shall I say I don't shoot them as well as I do a bolt.

I'll let you all know what my magnetospeed comes up with.
 
Last edited:

Niles Coyote

Gunny Sergeant
Aug 13, 2007
3,835
182
63
South West, MI
18" noveske with 8208, 77cc @2.257" Winchester cases and primers.
23 grains = 2637 for 5 with SD of 18
23.5 grains = 2682 for 5 with SD of 6
23.8 grains = 2700 for 6 with SD of 15

16" sabre defense
75 bthp Hornady
8208 in FC brass and WSR
23 grains 2600 for 4 SD of 10
23.8 grains 2700 for 5 SD of 30
 
Apr 22, 2009
201
0
16
USA
Anyone have nodes for 68 grain Hornaday HPBTs?
Platform would be 20" 1:9 twist AR-15
Available powders are TAC, Varget, BLC-2
24.3 varget, hornady brass .5 min @ 200 out 25 inch barrel Moon bolt gun.

The hornady brass has less volumn than the lake city brass I used in past. Due to the long hornady 68 they are almost as long as Sierra 77. It is a almost compressed load.

I'm going to use it for 30 rd shoot out after after I work up some loads 52 hornady
 
Last edited:
Dec 13, 2013
71
0
6
Metro Atlanta
25.0 Gr IMR-4064

52gr SMK HPBT

Mixed brass all trimmed to 1.750"

CCI 400 primer

2.260" OAL

No velocity data but produced average groups of about .400" at 100 yards out of a Rem 700 1-12" twist in an AICS.
 
Apr 9, 2013
237
0
0
Phoenix, Arizona
Anyone have data for Alliant 1200-R?
Platform would be semi-auto carbine, 55 grain projectiles. Usage would be plinking/carbine class etc.

I happened on a few pounds of this 1200-R, and figured if I could use it for non-OCD purposes I could save the 'good stuff' for my precision loads (different rifle)
 
Nov 4, 2010
212
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0
Dec 17, 2010
54
0
6
Northern, CO
223 SPS Tactical 1/9 Twist
Federal Brass
55gr Hornady SPSX or SP (same bullet yet different)
CCI Primers
20.7gr H322
.010" off the lands

Shoots 1/4 MOA at 100yds and 1/2MOA at 200yds - My standard for P-Dogs
 
Jun 22, 2009
18
3
3
49
Italy
Tikka Sporter .223 1/8 twist with selfmade pillar and bedding
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: Berger FB 80,5 gr
Primers: Remington 7 1/2
Powder: Vihtavuori N135 - 21.5 gr
OAL: 62,5 mm

300 meters target

 
Last edited:
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padom

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.8/5 this site
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.223 - 5.56 Loads
10/14/2014 Last edited 10/14/2014 by padom
[HR][/HR]Copied over from old site

7mmRm
50grn VMAX, BlitzKing, NBT kissing the lands
Win Brass
26grns of Benchmark
Fed 205M

55grn BlitzKing, NBT, VMAX kissing lands
Win Brass
25.5 Benchmark
Fed205M

60grn VMAX kissing lands
Win Brass
25 Benchmark
Fed205M

By Shakey Yankee
26.5grns W748
FedGM205 Primer
Remmy Case
55grn V-Max
3100 FPS from 1-12 twist 18" heavy barrel

By TrapperT
20" MSTN SuperSAM Upper 1-8 twist (Lilja 3 groove barrel)
Lapua Brass
Rem 7 1/2 Primers
80 SMK (.015" off lands)
24.6 gr V140
2750fps

I shoot the identical load with 77gr BT Bergers (loaded to 2.25 OAL) and get 2780fps

By Rover31
Lapua Brass
Rem 7 1/2 Primers
80 SMK (.015" off lands)
24.6 gr V140
2750fps

I shoot the identical load with 77gr BT Bergers (loaded to 2.25 OAL) and get 2780fps

By Hunt
55grn VMAX
Win Brass
26.4 Varget
CCI 400

This load gives me avg. vel. of 3067 fps and an SD of 8 out of a 1/9 22" factory tube.

By 2-114TH B.
AR 1-9 Twist bushmaster 20inch HB
69 Grain hornady bthp
lake city brass
25.5 varget
cci br2
mag length
load gives me avg of 2835 to 2850

By LOBO
Lapua Match brass
Federal Match primer
RL-15 23.6 grains
75 grain Hornady A-Max
2.385" coal


Winchester brass
Federal Match primer
RL-15 24 grains
75 grain Hornady BTHP
2.25" coal


Lapua Match brass
CCI BR primer
RL-15 24 grains
75 grain Berger VLD
2.365" coal

By Jedi
20" Rockriver Varminator(predator/varmint hybrid)
1:8 twist
Win brass
OAL standard
AA2520 24.7
77smk

69gr bullet (seems not to care about make)
26gr AA2520
2950fps
my standard load

By Marksman762
20" White Oak Barrel
1:7 twist
Wylde chamber cut

24.5 grains RE-15
Lake City case
Federal Match primer
75 Hornady BTHP
2.255"

Awesome load but will flatten primers for me, be careful.

By Geno C.
Hornady 2nd firing brass
WSR primer
27grs Varget
50gr Vmax Moly
2.230"
3310fps out of a 26" 1-12 boltgun
mild pressure and outstanding accuracy!

By upnorthbacon
Bushmaster 1/9 20" hbar

Winchester brass
Wsr primer
23gr AA2230
68gr bthp Hornady
2.25"

By Texas_Rick
Sierra 69 gr HPBT
26 gr BL-C(2)
Velocity 2930 from Savage 12FV 26" 1:9 barrel
ES: 42
SD: 12
Fed 205 primers

Edit to add: Bullet seating was done with an RCBS precision mic at +0.040

Note: I loaded these with range brass that was only resized and not trimmed. Consistantly shot 1/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
Powder threw very consistant so once I set the throw and confirmed throw consistancy, I just threw the powder with out trickling up like I normally do with Varget.

By Ar15rloader
24 grain varget
winchester brass
cci primer
75 bthp
COL 2.25

24 grain TAC 77 SMK COL 2.26

By BsChoy
25.6 of H4895
60gr Vmax
seated to 2.31
with a federal 205
3100 fps out of a 22" Steven 200 w/timney trigger
.91" center to center for a 10 shot group

By cgustaf16
Tikka Sporter .223 1/8 twist with selfmade pillar and bedding
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: Berger FB 80,5 gr
Primers: Remington 7 1/2
Powder: Vihtavuori N135 - 21.5 gr
OAL: 62,5 mm

300 meters target




By delv7915
223 SPS Tactical 1/9 Twist
Federal Brass
55gr Hornady SPSX or SP (same bullet yet different)
CCI Primers
20.7gr H322
.010" off the lands

Shoots 1/4 MOA at 100yds and 1/2MOA at 200yds - My standard for P-D

By FLS
AR-15 20" Shilen, 1-8, Wylde chamber.
Hornady 75 BTHP, Hornady brass, 26.0 CFE223, 2.260"
10 shot avg 2812

By bob6117
POF 16" barreled upper 1/8 twist 5.56
LC brasss
Wolf small rifle magnum primers
27.3 Varget
Hornady 53 gr. HP
2.215 coal
no chrono data yet
sub moa

By Steel head

9SMK 25.5 w748 #450 LC brass.

75/77 23.4 8208XBR #450 LC brass.

These two loads south a bit of OAL adjusting seem to work in most rifles pretty damn well.

By arocholl
25.0 Gr IMR-4064

52gr SMK HPBT

Mixed brass all trimmed to 1.750"

CCI 400 primer

2.260" OAL

No velocity data but produced average groups of about .400" at 100 yards out of a Rem 700 1-12" twist in an AICS.

By FlashGordon
25.3 VV N540
69gr SMK
Lapua brass
205M primer
2.260" OAL
2940 FPS out of a 20" Tikka T3 Tactical.

By Scooter64
24.3 varget, hornady brass .5 min @ 200 out 25 inch barrel Moon bolt gun.

The hornady brass has less volumn than the lake city brass I used in past. Due to the long hornady 68 they are almost as long as Sierra 77. It is a almost compressed load.

I'm going to use it for 30 rd shoot out after after I work up some loads 52 hornady

By Niles Coyote
18" noveske with 8208, 77cc @2.257" Winchester cases and primers.
23 grains = 2637 for 5 with SD of 18
23.5 grains = 2682 for 5 with SD of 6
23.8 grains = 2700 for 6 with SD of 15

16" sabre defense
75 bthp Hornady
8208 in FC brass and WSR
23 grains 2600 for 4 SD of 10
23.8 grains 2700 for 5 SD of 30

By Tangodown911
Sub .5 moa hammer load!

23.8g 8208XBR
LC brass
75 bthp seated at 2.245-2.248"
BR4 primer

Load hammers in Wylde chambered WOA ADCO SPR barrels and Rainier Ultra Match barrels.

By colt933

AR15 with Krieger 20" SS 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube
AR15 with DD 18" CHF S2W 1/7 barrel, rifle length gas tube

77SMK with cannelure
24.0 Varget
WIN NT once fired, annealed, sized, trimmed
CCI #41
2.245" COAL
Lee FCD set to not quite close all the way.

This load shoots .5MOA from both barrels. Velocity is a little over 2700fps and 2600fps respectively.

I had been getting 1MOA and 100fps slower by seating at 2.26" and using a Redding taper crimp. But shortening to 2.245" and using the Lee FCD gave BIG improvements.


By BolierUp
75gr Hornady HPBT
24.0gr Varget
Lapua brass
CCI-400

2875fps from 26" 9 twist Savage barrel

<span style="font-weight: bold">From a Savage 12FV (26" 9 twist barrel)</span>

75gr Hornady HPBT
24.0gr Varget
Nosler brass
CCI-400
2.25" OAL

5 shot average - 2834fps (this load chrony'd 2645fps in a 20" AR)

75gr Hornady HPBT
24.0gr Varget
Nosler brass
CCI-400
2.30" OAL

5 shot average - 2862fps. 10 shots into 0.7" @ 100yd, 7 shots into 0.4", hammer on steel @ 370yd.

75gr Hornady A-Max
24.5gr Varget
Nosler Brass
CCI-400
2.46" OAL (0.005" jump)

5 shot average - 2915fps. First four shots into 0.25", shanked the 5th shot under pressure opening this up to 0.62". <span style="text-decoration: underline">75gr A-Max seems to shoot well from my 1:9 barrel</span>, but future 300yd testing will verify.

Other 5-shot average velocities during 75gr A-Max testing with Varget:

24.8gr: 2955fps
25.0gr: 2985fps
25.2gr: 2998fps

By 223ai
27" Brux, 6.5 twist
82gr Berger BTHP, pointed with the Whidden system
Wolf SRM primer
24.4 8208xbr
2.490" OAL
2904 average, able to be fed via AICS 223 mags in my bolt gun, excellent accuracy

By Insight3b
WOA 18" SPR bbl 1/7 wylde chamber with Tubbs carrier weight system installed in the BCG.
77gr Nosler Custom competition seated to 2.267(only fits in pmags and beta mag)
24.8gr Vihta N540(hot load without CWS)
LC brass
Remington 7.5 primer
AVG 2730fps at 90 degrees and 2690 at 34 degrees

By bmk
ake City Brass
CCI Small Rifle Magnum Primer
26.5 Grains Varget
60 Grain Nolser Ballistic tip
2.26 COAL

It's a tack driver in every AR I've tried it in and hits coyotes and prarie dogs like thor's hammer.

By capreppy
Win Brass
Fed 205M (Small Rifle Match)
24gr H322 (got 16# for $150 from someone locally)
Hornady 50gr Z-Max
2.20 COAL

This was fired out of a 24" 1-9 twist Savage Varmint barrel. Initial load development showed 24gr was 1/2 MOA. Loaded up 100 and shot groups over several weekends and maintained 1/2 MOA. I may tinker a little bit and try 23.8, 24.0, 24.2 to see if I can tighten the group and then may play a little with the OAL. I didn't check my jump as I just wanted to shoot. Using a Millett 4-16x50 TRS-1 and could probably tighten the group up if I used my Mueller 8-32x40 Target Dot scope. At 1/2 MOA each and every outing, I'm pretty pleased. Pleased enough that I got 2.5k sitting on the shelves for the next year of shooting at my local range
*************************************
LC '07 Brass
CCI #400 (Small Rifle)
24gr WC844
Sierra 55gr GameKing HPBT (not entirely sure where I got them, but they were $105/k)
2.20 COAL

These shot 1/2 MOA with ease. I've got 400 remaining and I'm going to load these up for very cheap trigger time.
*************************************
Got 1k Nosler 69gr CC's in the email (over-runs) and am going to see how well these shoot in the coming weeks.
 
G

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rdsii640X27 MONTHS
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Rating: 3.2/5 this site
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Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
10/20/2014
[HR][/HR]Lake city brass full length sized and trimmed to 1.75
26 grains of N133
50 grain vmax
wolf small rifle primer

(this load may be to hot for a semi auto)
Rate now:
GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
10/24/2014 Last edited 12/17/2016 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
By Greg Langelius

.223/5.56 Varmint/Target loads for 200yd and under

50 NBT or 52SMK, 2.260" OAL
F/L resized brass, I prefer PPU.
CCI BR-4
26.0gr Varget.

.223/5.56 Target load for beyond 200yd

HDY 75gr HPBT Match, 2.260" OAL
F/L resized brass, I prefer PPU
CCI BR-4
23.7gr Varget
The above loads work well as a generic loads in 4 rifles, CMMG 16 Bull WASP, Mossberg 20" MVP Predator, 24" Savage 11VT, 24" Stag Model 6 Super Varminter. The slowest rifling is the CMMG 16"/1:9".

Mixmaster Load to duplicate performance of FGMM 3006/168

SRA 168SMK, 3.230" OAL
F/L resized brass, I prefer Win.
CCI BR-2
48.1gr IMR-4064

Thus load works well in my M70 Push Feed Sporter (under 2" at 250yd), 22" Savage Axis II XP, and should be fine in my Garand.

My generic deer hunting load substitutes the SRA 165SGKwith no other changes. ETA: as of yesterday's test, the165SGK load shoots ay least as accurately at 200yd in my M70 sporter as the 168SMK load.

It is not my policy to load beyond mag length and my brass is F/L resized to match a standard case gauge, and not any specific chamber.

Greg



Update: the 165gr version of the '06 load placed first in local club (Bath, NY) deer rifle match.

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JGB02

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
1841 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
11/05/2014
[HR][/HR]Seekings SPRO3G Upper (18", 1/8 barrel)

LC brass
CCI 400
Hornady 75gr BTHP
COL=2.225"
24.0gr PP 2000-MR

Have gone all the way up to 26.4gr, but 24.0gr provides better accuracy

Bolt gun w/ 20" 1/7 Brux barrel

LC Brass
CCI 400
Seated ~ 0.005" off lands (not sure this matters much)
Hornady 75gr AMAX
25.5gr PP 2000-MR

LC Brass
CCI 400
Seated ~ 0.005" off lands (not sure this matters much)
Hornady 80gr AMAX
25.3gr PP 2000-MR
Rate now:
MinnesotaMulisha

XSergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
293 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
11/05/2014
[HR][/HR]
LC '12 Brass

Fed 205M Primers

24.9g Varget

69g SMK

2.250" COAL

18" Black Hole Weaponry barrel with 1:8 Twist

Sub 1/2 moa if I play the role of a shooter.

Rate now:
Stpilot12

XSergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
241 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
11/17/2014 Last edited 07/04/2015 by Stpilot12
[HR][/HR]Time to contribute….

Hornady 68gr BT match
25.5 Varget
F205M
Win 1x
2.252 COAL- This bullet is more finicky than SMK's, tried 2.248-2.260 .252 was noticeably better.
Mild load, 2855 Avg from my Tikka Varmint 24"
.5" @100, taken it to 500, easy MOA or better


Hornady 53gr VMAX
26.0 Benchmark
CCI BR-4
Win 1x and LC 1x
2.270 COAL
3350fps Avg from my Tikka 24" (3380 in Virgin Win brass)
My goto Varmint load.. Makes Squirrel soup
Ive seen this as small as .3's, if it goes over .5, its my fault...


69 SMK
25.7 Varget
F205M or BR-4 (doesn't seem to care)
Win 1x
2.258 COAL
Avg 2875fps in my WOA 18" SPR
Always .5" Taken it to 600, easy MOA+


Preliminary Work up…
69 SMK
23.8 Benchmark (this is over max.)
CCI BR-4
Win 1x
2.258COAL
I've only shot 3 Groups (of 5) so far, but looks promising. All three groups under .5"
Velocity is a little slow at 2780 fps (Avg.18" SPR) with ES less than 20 (I love Benchmark)
No real pressure signs yet. I may push it up a bit, but the accuracy is incredible so far.
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korykhunterXSergeant
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
166 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/05/2014
[HR][/HR]A good load for under 500 is 40grvmax on top of 24gr N120 and Rem 7 1/2. This is a max or near max load but it does a number on Prairie dogs.
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JBMdc

XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
807 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/14/2014
[HR][/HR]
Factory Remington 700 SPS Tactical 1:9 20"

Brass: Lake City

Primer: CCI 400

Powder: Varget 25 grains

Bullet: Hornady 75 HPBT

Bullet just touching the lands.

Velocity: 2814

ES: 9



Shoots .4s in my rifle.



24.7 shot even tighter with .3s, but the ES and SD were not as consistent. I will be testing 24.7 more.

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nilescoyote

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.6/5 this site
4209 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/14/2015
[HR][/HR]Recorded this past summer.
18" noveske with 8208, 77cc @2.257" Winchester cases and primers.
23 grains = 2637 for 5 with SD of 18
23.5 grains = 2682 for 5 with SD of 6
23.8 grains = 2700 for 6 with SD of 15

16" sabre defense 75 bthp Hornady 8208 in FC brass and WSR
23 grains 2600 for 4 SD of 10
23.8 grains 2700 for 5 SD of 30

Recorded Feb14th at 14 degrees with one hour of transport from 70 degree house
18" FN chrome lined barrel, rifle gas, with 8208, 77cc @2.257" Wolf Gold cases and Winchester primers.
23 grains = 2621 for 4 with SD of 12
23.5 grains = 2670 for 4 with SD of 11
23.8 grains = 2692 for 4 with SD of 24

Recorded this past summer.
69 grain Nosler CC @ 2.253 with H4895 @ 24.4 = best load that works well in all my AR uppers and Remington Tactical 20" factory barrel

16" Sabre Defense, mid gas = 2768
18" Noveske,= 2829
18" FN = 2851
20" Rem Tac = 2854
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mattc51XSergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
114 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/15/2015
[HR][/HR]Hornady tap copy

55 gr hornady v-max flat base bullet
24.7 gr of benchmark
Very tight groups in all my AR's
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colt933XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
1014 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/01/2015 Last edited 06/19/2015 by colt933
[HR][/HR]
Mk262 Mod1 ish clone

LC Brass, headspace 1.460 (like FGMM in the box), trimmed to 1.750"

77SMK W/C

Ramshot TAC 24.8

FGMM primer

2.245"

LFCD



This load is 1/2MOA in three different DD CHF S2W 18" AR15 barrels.





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bob6118XSergeant
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
158 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/07/2015
[HR][/HR]POF 16" barrel 1/8 twist.
LC brass
Wolf small rifle magnum primers
27.0 gr. Varget
62 gr. SS109 bullet.
2950 fps avg. for 10 shot string.
I only shot this @ 50 yd. , I was looking more for velocity than accuracy.
3/4 " @ 50 yd using a vortex pst 1-4
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Rover31XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
523 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/17/2015
[HR][/HR]
not to rain on anyones parade... I was looking over some of the loads copied over from the old site that are here and I see a problem.

this is listed as mine



By Rover31
Lapua Brass
Rem 7 1/2 Primers
80 SMK (.015" off lands)
24.6 gr V140
2750fps

I don't have Lapua brass (never have owned any)

I don't have any Rem primers

I have never used or had any V140 powder



I'm a bit concerned that some of the data is messed up. I don't want to see anyone using the data with bad or even just poor results. I especially don't want my name tied to something that is wrong.

I suggest that others look through this and see if I am the only one with bad data.



Thanks

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Rover31XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
523 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/26/2015
[HR][/HR]
Savage bolt, 26in McGowen bull barrel threaded with suppressor

Win brass

CCI SR primer

80g SMK

Varget 25.4g

COAL have to check

Avg Velocity at 1k altitude on a 60f day

2907.1



load #2

everything same as above except

Power Pro 2000mr 25.3g velocity avg. 2699.8

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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/18/2015
[HR][/HR]
Starting to load for my .223/.556. Trying to find a powder to start with. Gonna measure the twist tonight(Windham). Stock gun. Thinking of 55-62 grain bullets. Sounds like Benchmark, H4895, and Varget? I'll dig more, just looking for good opinions.

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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/19/2015
[HR][/HR]
1:8 twist.

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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/19/2015
[HR][/HR]
Sounds like I may be loading 69 SMK's or 77 SMK's, using Varget or H4895.

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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/19/2015
[HR][/HR]
Correction. 1:9 twist. Looking like 55-62 grain bullets.

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G

Guest

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/20/2015 Last edited 01/12/2017 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
I would suggest considering Winchester 64gr PowerPoints.

I'm planning on developing a roughly (ballistic) equivalent load to the M855 with these bullets and Varget. For my purposes, ballistically equivalent means roughly coincident POI's. I consider these bullets to provide better terminal performance, and maybe better accuracy than the 62gr government penetrator bullet.

Most commercial brass is adequate, just try to avoid mixing headstamps. I use PPU brass nearly exclusively. My source is usually Prvi-Partizan/PPU 55gr FMJ ammo, available for $7.97 per box of 20 at WallyWorld. When supply and cash are in harmony, i generally pick up 5 boxes each month.

For .223/5.56 primers I use either CCI BR-4's or CCI400. When duplicating a commercial load, I will sometimes also use Winchester WSR primers instead.

Greg

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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/20/2015
[HR][/HR]
Gonna start with 55 gr HP's and Varget. Take it from there and see how she flys.

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/24/2015 Last edited 05/25/2015 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
I have found that the NOS 55gr BT and 26.0gr of Varget appears to be a pretty generic load.

I use this charge for all my 50-55gr bullets as an initial load. If better accuracy is needed I will adjust it for the rifle and bullet.

Greg
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JGB02

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
1841 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/24/2015 Last edited 06/14/2015 by JGB02
[HR][/HR]
Seekins SPRO 3G (18" barrel)

Hornady 75gr BTHP
24.4gr CFE 223 (this powder meters very well ... GTG for a progressive)
COL 2.250"
CCI 400
LC brass

~ 2600 fps. Grouping at 300 meters was within a 2" circle and shot with only a 6X scope.

Here is an OCW using a 10X scope (the middle shots were also 24.2gr), as you can see 24.4 is a classic node:



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SigMarineXSergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
436 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
05/25/2015
[HR][/HR]The wife's .223 just came back from the range. This load shot consistently well out to 885 yards in a Remington 700 5R, 1:9 twist, 24" barrel.

69gr Sierra SMK
24.8gr Varget
Lapua brass
CCI BR4 Primers
OAL 2.260
2950 fps
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ZmechanicXPrivate
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
42 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
06/16/2015 Last edited 06/16/2015 by Zmechanic
[HR][/HR]
I'll throw my two loads into the pot.



First is my tried and true load. It's not the most accurate, but in my gun the charge weight is super forgiving in terms of group and POI. I've had good accuracy all the way

down to 23.3gr and all the way up to 23.9gr:

69gr SMK HPBT

23.6gr IMR-4895

2.250" COAL

Winchester/Black Hills Match brass

Winchester SR Primer



The most accurate load I've found yet (which isn't saying THAT much). Was able to get 1/2 MOA out of my factory barreled Remmy (5R, 1:9).

This one is more temperamental to charge weight. Once I got below about 24.6gr it started stringing vertical pretty bad. Once it got up into the node on my gun,

it tightened up like crazy.

69gr SMK HPBT

24.8gr Reloader 15

2.250" COAL

Winchester Brass

Winchester SR primer

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Thumper580XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
563 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
06/17/2015 Last edited 06/17/2015 by Thumper580
[HR][/HR]Here is my best so far in my AR.
24" bull barrel, 1/8 twist, 5.56 nato chamber
Winchester brass, Fed match primer
75gr Hornady match
24.0 gr A2495 set at 2.260 OAL
prints 3/8" or less groups at 100 yards.
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ArmyJerryXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
3725 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
07/04/2015
(1 vote)
[HR][/HR]
Remington 700 22inch Remage Load 7 twist light varmint contour

LC Brass
Varget
77 GR SMK

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rdsii640X27 MONTHS
Premium Member
Sergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
193 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
07/08/2015
[HR][/HR]
Lake City Case trimmed to 1.75

77 Grain Nosler CC seated to mag length and crimped at the cannulure

25.2 grains of AA2520

Wolf 556 primer



DO NOT SHOOT THIS LOAD OUT OF A SAMMI SPEC 223 CHAMBER!!!



According to my magnitospeed I'm getting and avg MV of 2908 from

my 20 inch RRA predator pursuit.



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scorpion168

XSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
400 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
07/23/2015
[HR][/HR]
I saw where IMR4064 can be used in 223. I have plenty of that! Anybody tried that for a gas gun? If so, what's a recommended bullet weight. I'm thinking about trying 62-69 gr.

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NFW911XCorporal
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
92 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
08/26/2015 Last edited 10/31/2015 by NFW911
[HR][/HR]
BCM 16" mid length 1-7" chrome lined.

77smk
23.9 RE-15
LC brass
Fed match primer
COAL 2.260
2867fps

73 Beger BT
24.8 Varget
LC brass
Fed match primer
COAL 2.260

55 Vmax
26.9 Varget
LC brass
Fed match primer
COAL 2.260

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KaiserNortonXSergeant
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
198 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
09/18/2015
[HR][/HR]
Back when the component shortage was really getting desperate, a good buddy gave me all the powder that he was no longer using. One of which was BL-C 2. At the same time, it seemed that the only .224 bullet the local funstore could procure was the Hornady 75gr hpbt. Scouring my manuals, I found data in the Hornady service rifle data section - according to them, I should get around 2700 fps second with 25.0 grs of this powder out of a 20 inch barrel. Recently tested my pet load at the range - velocity averaged out to 2684 out of my LTR. Five shot accuracy at 100 runs around 5/8" consistently. At 200 yds my group opened up .812", and at 300 yds five plunked into 1.323". Oughta work for ND coyotes....



Lapua Brass

Federal Gold Medals

25.0 grs BL-C 2

Hornady 75gr HPBT



Kaiser Norton







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G

Guest

Guest
NewLiberty

XSergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
235 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/04/2015
[HR][/HR]22" Savage 1 in 9 barrel
69 SMK
25.3 Varget
.015 off the lands

Shoots about .620 @ 100 yards off a bench, bipod and rear bag,
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SingleShot85XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
1505 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/14/2015
[HR][/HR]
Tikka 8-twst .223 22" KRG Wiskey 3 Accurate Mag steel 10rnd .223 mag

Win brass

CCI primers

75gr Amax

8208xbr 24.8gr, 2.45"oal (.05" off the lands)

2960fps CrAzY accurate I didn't have a camera on my last range trip when I finalized this load, but 5rnd groups were easily less than a .33"

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kruger1XPrivate
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
18 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/29/2015
[HR][/HR]
.223 load that works great for me in the AR

20" WOA SDM barrel 1/8" twist, .223 Wylde Chamber

last used FC .223 cases, CCI BR4 primers, Hornady 52gr BTHP Match, 25.8gr or 26.5gr Win 748. Seated to 2.250" max, Crimped or non crimped.

Both loads extremely accurate for me.

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Pathfinder2041XPrivate
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
7 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/05/2016 Last edited 01/06/2016 by Pathfinder2041
[HR][/HR]
I have a load for Hornady 60 grain V-Max bullets that works well in my LaRue barreled mutt AR.

Case: CBC 14 head stamp

CCI #41 primer

24.0 grains Ramshot TAC

60 grain Hornady V-Max bullet

2.250 OACL

Two back to back 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Will load up some more to test in other 16" barreled rifles.

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nilescoyote

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.6/5 this site
4209 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/09/2016 Last edited 01/11/2016 by nilescoyote
[HR][/HR]
18" Rock Creek with rifle gas loading AR-Comp and H4895 with 77 grain SMK's crimping with lee factory crimp die.

AR-comp 77gr smk
22.0= 2568 sd/11
22.2= 2593 sd/7
22.4= 2611 sd/10
22.6= 2636 sd/16
22.8= 2657 sd/9

H4895 77gr smk
23.0= 2611 sd/32
23.5= 2662 sd/15
24.0= 2699 sd/6
24.5= 2722 sd/45







I was trilled to see the group in the center... might not look like much unless you saw the conditions and position it was fired in. All the others had the magnetospeed attached while shooting.



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spife7980

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
1212 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/03/2016
[HR][/HR]
.223 in 16.5" rem 700 w/ 1/9 twist.



R-P fired brass only neck sized.

60 gr Nosler BT

23.6 gr IMR 8208 XBR

2.260 OAL (way off the lands but I fail to recall how far exactly, maybe .040-.050 off? Doesnt like it any closer though)

CCI 400 small rifle primers

2600 fps average via magneato v3





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DaveThomas83XSergeant
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
278 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/15/2016
[HR][/HR]Anyone tried H4895 under a 75 BTHP? I ran some yesterday in my AR with limited success, it was much faster than the 8208 and TAC loads I also tested that day. 5 rounds with a 23.5 load (mildly compressed) yielded an average of 2780, the ES was a bit high at 63, but that could have been me during the load process. Crappy electronic scale I have can vary +/- .2gr. New replacement en route.

And I'll also offer up my 16" WOA AR load:

16" 1:7 WOA barrel
52 SMK
25.0gr of H4895
OAL: 2.25"
Vel: 2975fps

10 shot string gave me an ES of 18 if I remember right.
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Str8shooterTxXSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
149 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/15/2016 Last edited 02/15/2016 by Str8shooterTx
[HR][/HR]
DaveThomas83 wrote: Anyone tried H4895 under a 75 BTHP? I ran some yesterday in my AR with limited success, it was much faster than the 8208 and TAC loads I also tested that day. 5 rounds with a 23.5 load (mildly compressed) yielded an average of 2780, the ES was a bit high at 63, but that could have been me during the load process. Crappy electronic scale I have can vary +/- .2gr. New replacement en route.

And I'll also offer up my 16" WOA AR load:

16" 1:7 WOA barrel
52 SMK
25.0gr of H4895
OAL: 2.25"
Vel: 2975fps

10 shot string gave me an ES of 18 if I remember right.​
I just loaded up some 75gr Hornady HPBT over H4985. Varying chages from 22.9-24.4gr. I hope to get to the range soon to confirm results.

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Str8shooterTxXSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
149 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
02/20/2016 Last edited 02/21/2016 by Str8shooterTx
[HR][/HR]
Got out today and shot 10 shot strings of H4895 under 75gr Hornady hpbt. 2.255COAL. This out of a WOA 18" suppressed AR in mid length gas system.

22.9 gr 2685 FPS AVE 19.6 SD

23.2 gr 2692 FPS AVE 17.5 SD

23.5 gr 2742 FPS 17.1 SD

23.8 gr 2783 FPS 13.2 SD

24.1 gr 2817 FPS 12.4 SD

24.4 gr 2828 FPS 19.3 SD

Now to start working 23.6gr to 24.2 in .2gr increments and see what there is to see. Clearly fell off the map at 24.4gr.



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DaveThomas83XSergeant
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
278 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/09/2016
[HR][/HR]
Str8shooterTx wrote:
Got out today and shot 10 shot strings of H4895 under 75gr Hornady hpbt. 2.255COAL. This out of a WOA 18" suppressed AR in mid length gas system.

22.9 gr 2685 FPS AVE 19.6 SD

23.2 gr 2692 FPS AVE 17.5 SD

23.5 gr 2742 FPS 17.1 SD

23.8 gr 2783 FPS 13.2 SD

24.1 gr 2817 FPS 12.4 SD

24.4 gr 2828 FPS 19.3 SD

Now to start working 23.6gr to 24.2 in .2gr increments and see what there is to see. Clearly fell off the map at 24.4gr.

Just saw this. My results showed the best accuracy for me was at 22.5gr, out of an 18" Ballistic Advantage 1:7 running suppressed. Loaded up some more to double check and get velocities, some dumbass left the chrono on when it got put away, so the battery was dead...:)

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Str8shooterTxXSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
149 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/09/2016 Last edited 03/09/2016 by Str8shooterTx
[HR][/HR]
So I'm guessing that 22.5gr you are getting about 2640FPS?? To slow for what I'm trying to do. Prob great on brass life though.

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sierracharlie338

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
1237 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
03/14/2016
[HR][/HR]
Just got my 223 bolt gun up and running. Nothing fancy just a budget build to pew with. So far its shooting 1/2-3/4 inch with the following load. I only have 21 rounds through the barrel so i have high hopes for it.

69 SMK
Lapua Brass
22.7 grains of IMR 8208 XBR
Fed 205 primer

Not sure on the velocity yet.

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Servo93

XSergeant
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
167 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
04/22/2016 Last edited 04/22/2016 by Servo93
[HR][/HR]
Using this in my 12.5" suppressed AR. Rifle has a V7 weapon systems match barrel.

Caution as this is a 5.56 pressure load.

77 SMK
Federal brass (range pick up) bumped shoulder back 0.002- 0.004".
Remington 7 1/2 primer
23.6 grains H4895
2501 fps without suppressor.
2535 fps with suppressor.

My SD with this is 25 fps bit it ends up well under 3/4 MOA. I assume a longer barrel might help with the high SD's.

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Ironhide776XPrivate
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
29 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
07/26/2016
[HR][/HR]
Anyone load and 60gn v-max with varget?
I got a good deal onow a lot of varget and want to know how well it works with the 60 gn.

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Likes2HuntXGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
619 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
07/27/2016 Last edited 07/27/2016 by Likes2Hunt
[HR][/HR]
As stated by padom this load came over from the old site:

Winchester brass
Federal Match primer
RL-15 24 grains
75 grain Hornady BTHP
2.25" coal


I measured a Hornady Superformance cartridge using that same projectile and the length was exactly the same as this workup.

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truly8upXCorporal
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
98 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
09/16/2016
[HR][/HR]Did not want to do load development for 5.56 AR.
Spec,s:
Aero M4A1 upper and lower
Barrel Noveske 16" 1/7 twist chromed lined

Ammo: pulled M193 LC bullets off, replace with Nosler 55gr. BT'S. Gives me sub MOA groups that are one ragged hole. Use same powder charge, primer, and no other prep to brass. Seated back to mag length.
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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/17/2016 Last edited 12/17/2016 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
Setting up for train-up prep for SW LR Nationals, MR/600yd Matches F-T/R. Granddaughter Elena and myself, 24" barrels, Stag Super Varminter, and Savage 11VT. Both use 5.56 chambers. Will load HDY 75gr HPBT-Match for single feeding, will match to short jump (<1 turn of seater stem) on each rifle, Stag will employ Satern follower.

Intend to use following load with.

HDY 75gr HPBT-Match

24.4gr Varget

CCI BR-4

Win Brass, new



Comments, advice, suggestions. Leaving current load on the shelf, 23.7gr Varget probably needs to be upped for 600. The 24.4gr charge keeps turning up in Internet searches associated with the 75HPBT-M.



Greg

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Str8shooterTxXSergeant
Rating: 2.9/5 this site
149 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/18/2016
[HR][/HR]
GregLangelius wrote:
Setting up for train-up prep for SW LR Nationals, MR/600yd Matches F-T/R. Granddaughter Elena and myself, 24" barrels, Stag Super Varminter, and Savage 11VT. Both use 5.56 chambers. Will load HDY 75gr HPBT-Match for single feeding, will match to short jump (<1 turn of seater stem) on each rifle, Stag will employ Satern follower.

Intend to use following load with.

HDY 75gr HPBT-Match

24.4gr Varget

CCI BR-4

Win Brass, new



Comments, advice, suggestions. Leaving current load on the shelf, 23.7gr Varget probably needs to be upped for 600. The 24.4gr charge keeps turning up in Internet searches associated with the 75HPBT-M.



Greg​
I would say do a load work up on it and check. Look at the numbers for real world accuracy not FPS speed. It's easy to get caught up in numbers instead of results.

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/23/2016
[HR][/HR]
Appreciate the advice, it's pretty much the same as I would give. Thank you.

But time is short and the nearest formal range is well over an hour away. I was hoping to cut to the chase. If someone can give comment on this specific load in a 24' varmint weight barrel, it would also be appreciated.

Safety-wise, the load is .6gr below Hodgdon published max, so I don't think there's serious issue with that.

500pc of new Win brass is in transit, 500 HDY HPBT-M, CCI BR-4's, and Varget onhand, just need some specific advice on the specific load. WB constructing a load confirmation batch as soon as brass arrives.

Greg

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
12/26/2016 Last edited 12/26/2016 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
So, no takers. Educational.

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/11/2017 Last edited 01/11/2017 by GregLangelius
[HR][/HR]
Maybe my last was a bit harsh, but it bites to ask for help and get that echoing silence, especially when I'm usually fairly free with help, myself. Or maybe I'm asking too much.

In the absence of response, I've made up the load confirmation batch for testing, and will be firing it in both guns today, an hour from home. This after once again doing extensive searching for internet comment about the load, about similar loads, and about matters concerning chamber pressures and max charges. I will soon report on results.

Greg

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cook1536XCorporal
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
52 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/11/2017
[HR][/HR]
Does anyone have a load worked up for the 70gr. Nosler RDF's?

I load tested this recipe for my R700 SPS Tactical 20" 1-9"...consistant with .3 and .4 MOA in my gun. No chrono readings yet
55gr. Hornady V-Max
Full Length resize Hornady Brass
CCI 400 primer
24.0gr Varget
2.250" COAL

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/12/2017 Last edited 01/13/2017 by GregLangelius
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Yesterday's outing was a busy one, mainly about learning what I had forgotten over the past year away the range. Winds were strong and gusting on the 10-20MPH range, fishtailing between 6 and 8 O'clock; so we elected to keep it within 100m. Temp was right at or around 72F, we were literally within less than 1 mile from the Mexican Border at the Douglas AZ Shooting Park. We were myself, my Wife Celia, and our Granddaughter Elena, 20. Also on the agenda were some tasks involving first time firing of Celia's S&W M&P 9 Shield, continuing practice with my Ruger American Pistol 9mm Pro, and .17cal gas operated pellet pistol.

Despite the winds, the Savage 10FP delivered exceptional accuracy, with precise POI movements (pretty much 1/2 of a bullet diameter per click) corresponding exactly to the 1/8MOA POA clicks on the Mueller 8-32x44 Target Scope. I am not posting groups because the winds were significant enough to bring any serious numbers into considerable question. I will just say that the lack of dispersion was a very welcome surprise.

Also, my new 10th edition of the Hornady reloading guide arrived via UPS while we were out at the range. The Varget 5.56 NATO charges listed by Hornady for the 75gr bullets are maxed at 24.6gr, then limited to 23.5gr for 223 Service rifle, and no listing for 223, which tops out at 60gr for bullets and 24.9gr of Varget. The 75gr bullets in 223 top out at 25.0(C)gr for Varget listed in the Hodgdon loading guide. This data can be confusing and contradictory, so pressure testing with the specific components and firearm is a must. Start 10% below listed max and work up with reasonable increments. Do not exceed specific published max for the specific chamber, bullet, and powder.

Observing pressure signs from the fired cases, I'm going to stay with the Hornady lower max listing, the pressure signs on the brass are as significant as I would want to run, with some definite flattening and cratering, but no ejector swipes. Of note is the fact that the Hornady 75gr bullet selection puts the HPBT-M bullet noticeably shorter overall and probably in bearing surface as well than the other selections, so it is possibly at a slight advantage pressure-wise over the longer bullets.

The AR cycles properly with the Satern single feed follower, as modified to bevel/relieve the upper surface of the forward lip at about a 30* angle from horizontal, to a depth of about 1/8"-3/16", eliminating the BCG hangup issue. I'm not being critical about this issue because the follower needs to work with a vast multitude of magazine choices, and there can be considerable variance between them. The magazine used is a USGI 20rd ARC item.

The firearms tested with the load are a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter, 24" 1:8" barrel, and the Savage 11VT .223, 24" 1:9" barrel.

So, the load remains:

75gr 5.56 NATO load for 24" barrels

HDY 75gr HPBT-Match, 2.255" OAL

New Win 223 brass (Midway) no prep

24.4gr of Varget (Compressed) weighed on a Hornady Lock-n-Load automatic powder dispenser. A great powder measure, it allows loading primed cases with little to no delay between rounds. It's bang-on with the Varget in the .223 case.

CCI BR-4

Caution:

Pressure signs are substantial enough to strongly caution against increasing the charge at all. This is a significantly warm, probably hot, load; even at .2gr below Hornady's listed max. I'm guessing that there are hotter commercial and military loads out there, but this is as hot as I would prefer to go, and may be even hotter than that. I am only considering it at all because of the 600yd distance requirement. Velocity in the Hornady book indicates 2800fps from a 20" barrel, and our barrels are 24", so I'm conservatively estimating a 2850-ish velocity.



Greg

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pacomdiverXSergeant
Rating: 0.0/5 this site
292 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/13/2017
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Greg,
the biggest problem i see is, not alot of guys used brand new brass as its a constant money pit and when your load is developed on the unfired case, its a different load on a fired case. i wouldve tried your load in my 24" upper but dont have any unfired cases so my input would be useless, like telling someone with a ford how to work on a chevy

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/13/2017 Last edited 01/13/2017 by GregLangelius
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Yes I get that. Grateful for your response.

I just got back in from reorganizing our kit out in the garage. I brought the fired cases in and have examined them all in detail.

The primer flattening I believed I saw initially turns out to be considerably less pronounced than my first impressions would indicate. There is still a pronounced round shoulder on the primers. Cratering is present, but absolutely no evidence of ejector swipes. There is only one anomaly, present on most of the cases fired in the Stag AR, some sooting on the case sidewalls. I'm not seeing any reason for it, and am left guessing. The rifles have both been cleaned thoroughly, as well as lubed in detail.

I'm going to have to watch to see if this sooting recurs. But for the basic part, I am satisfied that this is a safe load in these two rifles, and depending on wind conditions, may also turn out to be accurate. My initial impressions are that it will be very accurate.

I have a very mild suspicion that the sooting may be some sort of deposit left in the gas tube from previous use of the foaming bore cleaner. It may have dislodged some carbon accumulation from the tube.

I ran a Hornady ballistic solution on the load, assuming 2850fps, and our local 4800ft altitude. It indicates 1313fps at 1000yd. That's a pleasant surprise.



Greg

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/19/2017 Last edited 01/19/2017 by GregLangelius
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Following up some days later, after a some daily treks to a local abandoned mining pit about ten minutes from home, under very light wind conditions; the rifle holds the 9 ring on the MR-31 shooting prone from a very annoyingly pitched firing point. Seriously, anything leaking out of the ten ring is my marksmanship issues, not the load or equipment. The load is now finalized at 24.4gr Varget, HDY 75gr HPBT-Match 2.255" OAL, Win Brass (No Prep), and CCI BR-4 primer. While rounds out of the Stag still exhibit sooting, it comes right off in the Cleaner, and the brass shows no evidence of any damage. For now, I'm just going to live with it.

Elena had similar, related marksmanship issues. Otherwise, she has quickly accommodated to the single-feed mag follower, and is otherwise getting with the program. Today we skip the range and do dry firing at home, now that we have exposed some marksmanship issues and established an actual need for coaching.

Seen thus, further 100yd practice will forego single feeding as well as the 75gr handloads. From now on, we will be utilizing fully loaded 20rd magazines and PPU 55gr FMJBT, which will be recycled as once fired brass for reloading. I will be using a brass catcher to simplify retrieval.

The pit faces West and has some shadows, and using 6" shoot-n-see stickup targets near perfectly duplicates the rings from the MR-31 target, as well as showing hits a whole bunch better. I think these alterations will speed up training and improve its effectiveness.



Greg

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shotdown

XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
511 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/22/2017 Last edited 01/22/2017 by shotdown
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This is my load for the .223 Wylde with a Benchmark 22" 1/8 twist barrel.

Nosler 70 gr RDF
Remington or Nosler brass
CCI400 primers
26.4 gr CFE223
.030 off lands (1.911 OGIVE)

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padom

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.8/5 this site
3043 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
01/25/2017 Last edited 01/25/2017 by padom
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20" Rainier Ultramatch 1:8 .223 Wylde (Shilen SS Match blank, Ratchet rifling)

73 ELD-M
23.4g 8208XBR
205
3xLC Annealed and FL Sized brass
1.824" Ogive

2801 SD7



OCW Test





Seating Depth Test







100yd Accuracy Confirmation - 5 Shot Groups



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JADEprecision

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
1713 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
Sunday at 5:06 PM
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Never loaded for .223 before, using a 7.7 twist Bartlein .223 Wylde chambered barrel in my TL3 built by PVA.
Any starting/suggested loads? I just picked up
Nosler 77gr CC bullets
CFE223 pow
CCI 400 primers.

Thanks!
I also have h4895 and Varget on hand that I use mainly in my Dasher.

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GregLangeliusXFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
5017 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
Tuesday at 10:48 AM
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I use Varget, and would start at somewhere around 22gr. The Hodgdon site lists 23.7gr(C*) as max for 77gr, but the bullet brand may make a difference.

I use the load mentioned below primarily because I need to accommodate a 1:9" twist barrel as well as a 1:8" one. I have no issues with OAL seating the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match, and prefer to use a 2.255" magazine length for that. Pay attention to pressures, I turned away from the 77's because there seemed to be more bearing length involved, and I was concerned it might spike the pressures. Since I only seek to reach 600yd, the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match bullet seems totally adequate, IMHO. I have a lot of respect for the shooters who go further than 600yd with the .223/5.56, but for that, I'll use the .308 or .260, if I shoot it at all.

My approach to competition is about the context and the overall experience. Winning, should that occur (unlikely indeed...), is entirely coincidental and not something I intensely pursue.



Greg

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Guest

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JADEprecision

XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
1713 posts this site
Re: .223 - 5.56 Loads
Tuesday at 1:05 PM
[HR][/HR]
GregLangelius wrote:

I use Varget, and would start at somewhere around 22gr. The Hodgdon site lists 23.7gr(C*) as max for 77gr, but the bullet brand may make a difference.

Greg​
Thank you for the thoughtful reply Greg!
 
Mar 5, 2017
51
1
8
47
Pennsylvania
5.56
12" Larue stealth barrel
1/8 twist
hornady 55gr. fmj
LC brass
wolf small rifle magnum primers
25.0 gr Hodgdon h335

hornady 68 gr. bthp
LC brass
Wolf small rifle magnum primers
24.4 gr. Hodgdon Varget
 
Jan 15, 2005
6,146
792
113
VA
For those who may be interested in the comparison between the 77gr SMK and 77gr Berger OTM tactical, I recently did load development with both bullets. Development with the SMK was done about a week before the Bergers but another string of 23.5gr to 24.5gr was done on the same day as the Bergers to reconfirm everything and the velocities matched up from the first test +/- a few FPS.

For both work ups the same WCC 11 cases, same lot of Varget and Tula KVB-223 primers were used. Both set to the same OAL with the same amount of crimp from a Lee crimp die. All charges were thrown from a dispenser and fine tuned on an A&D fx-120i. Velocities were measured over a Magnetospeed V3. These were all from the same 18" Ballistic Advantage 223 Wylde SPR barrel.

Please keep in mind that these are my loads from my rifle with certain lots of components and type of brass. Caution should always be used and loads should be started a few grains below the manufacturers book max.

77gr SMK:

22.0gr 2320
22.1gr 2309
22.2gr 2369
22.3gr 2376
22.4gr 2422
22.5gr 2469
22.6gr 2431
22.7gr 2423
22.8gr 2419
22.9gr 2543
23.0gr 2455
23.1gr 2472
23.2gr 2474
23.3gr 2509
23.4gr 2488
23.5gr 2534
23.6gr 2521
23.7gr 2536
23.8gr 2522
23.9gr 2614
24.0gr 2578
24.1gr 2618
24.2gr 2598
24.3gr 2598
24.4gr 2597
24.5gr 2610

Velocity pretty much flat lined after 24gr. I loaded up a 5 shot strings of the 23.9gr-24.5gr charges and 24.1gr had the best ES/SD at 14/7.3. I also loaded up 24.6gr, 24.7gr, and 24.8gr but didn't write down the velocities, this was mainly to try to find pressure signs. None were seen in my barrel. I loaded up several hundred rounds at 24.1gr and it shoots very well and are averaging 2605fps for 5 shots. Accuracy with this load is sub 3/4moa for 10 shot groups.

Berger 77gr:

23.0gr 2506
23.1gr 2504
23.2gr 2502
23.3gr 2504
23.4gr 2548
23.5gr 2560
23.6gr 2571
23.7gr 2563
23.8gr 2576
23.9gr 2573
24.0gr 2600
24.1gr 2605
24.2gr 2593
24.3gr 2632
24.4gr 2628
24.5gr 2621
24.6gr 2671
24.7gr 2675

The Bergers had much flatter nodes than the Sierras did. Pressure was never seen on this string either. I loaded several 5 shots strings of 24.3gr-24.5gr and they were all very consistent. I decided on 24.4gr as it was right in the middle of the node. Of the 5x 5 shot strings I loaded, all were no more than 10fps ES wish is astonishing to me in a gas gun. They are averaging 2626fps and shoot little knots at 100 yards.

I ran both loads this weekend in a PRS DMR competition with shots out to 680yd and they were all consistent. The furthest I shot the Sierras was just shy of 600 and they worked well but the Bergers were much more consistent at distance. Both loads shoot to exactly the same POI at 100 but the Sierras take another .1mil to get to the same distances as the Bergers. This is due to the slightly higher velocity of the Berger load.

Approximately 200-210 rounds of the Bergers and 150ish rounds of the SMK's were shot during the two days in the rain, heat and dust with zero weapon maintenance and both were 100% reliable with no pressure issues, no popped primers. I did have one shot from a SMK that was definitely tossed about 2mils left at 470yd for some reason other than wind or shooter movement. I attributed it to dry tumbling after chamfering to remove case lube and brass shaving and figured a case mouth probably got dinged enough in the tumbler to shave the jacket when seating and I just didn't notice.

All in all both are very solid and the velocities are very close for charge weight, but in my rifle the Berger ended up with a node a little higher and also didn't flatline. The accuracy as well as ES/SD was much better with the Berger. I'll burn up the rest of the Sierras that I have loaded for it, but the Bergers are what I'll be buying more of. More velocity can be had with other primers but I find this powder to be the most consistent and accurate for 77gr bullets.
 

rdsii64

Sergeant
Aug 19, 2008
315
19
18
North Carolina, USA
23.9 grains of TAC
Hornady 62 grain BTHP
Wolf AR primers (same as their regular S/R but with a harder cup)
Lake City case (2010 head stamp)
Don't know the MV until this weekend but my chrome lined hybrid profile 20 inch criterion shot this 5 shot 0.37" group
 

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Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,380
660
113
Arizona, good place for me...
A lot has happened since 2017 for me.

The load testing for Elena and myself was in anticipation of the 2017 Berger SW LR Regionals at Ben Avery Range just outside Phoenix, AZ. I competed in the first stage of the 600yd MR matches, but retired before the 2nd and 3rd ones, due to heart/lung related health issues/discomfort. Two months later, I had my second (since 2004) Heart Attack, and have effectively retired from high level comp. Elena did well enough to consider doing it again, but not this year.

Elena now has the original 24" Stag Model 6 Super Varminter, and I built myself another virtually identical (different Optics) one from the Stag Model 6 Kit, which entire model was superceded a week after delivery by the Stag 15 Varminter, which differs in the buttstock provided, and the rather inconspicuous absence of the prior 1/2MOA (with factory match ammo) accuracy guarantee.

Testing of the 24.4gr Varget/HDY 75gr HPBT load from a rest and bench at 300yd (rather than 100yd prone) disclosed a lack of accuracy that was not apparent at the shorter distance. Both rifles (Savage 11VT and Stag 6) held the 9-Ring or better at Phoenix, but clearly, load redevelopment was advisable.

I tested .3gr increments from 23.5gr to 24.6gr of Varget just prior to my Winter layoff, and will resume very soon; narrowing the testing between 23.5gr and 23.7gr, with some IMI 77 Razor Core and Frontier 75gr Match for comparison. If the factory match loads shoot a consistent 3/4MOA or better from my Stag, I'm done testing, and will simply buy the factory stuff instead.

But I have a hunch the handloads will be as close to 1/2MOA as I could ever want, and the earlier testing approached that rather closely at 100yd. The final load just needs to be determined.

Soon, we will have our answers.

Meanwhile, my shooting Buddy got himself rather seriously injured in a motorcycle accident Jan 9 with a badly mauled left shoulder, a fractured C-1 Vertebra, a cracked Sternum, and some cracked Ribs. He was trying to avoid running over a harebrained pedestrian. He missed the Mental Giant completely, but has no memory beyond leaving the pavement. His one year old Harley Trike was totaled. He is recovering well but slowly, is definitely not a happy camper with that neck brace, and will be out of action for some significant time to come.

I am also now down my pair of 16" Uppers This has changed, they turned up in a final desperation search of the entire shop/gun cabinet setup., and will take delivery of a very basic replacement AR Stoner 16" 1:7" Upper from Midway today (backtracking the product listing, it looks like I may have caught the last one...). All I'm really looking for is something I can do some significant carry with.

Tomorrow the Bushnell AR 223 Drop Zone 3-12x40 side focus BDC scope and Nikon P-Series mounts arrive from Amazon. The new upper's 1:7" twist may handle the heavies; and if so, that's also a bit of a relief. But I'll also be testing the Fed Fusion MSR 62gr Bonded factory load, the earlier 64gr Win PowerPoint Varget loads, as well as a 65gr SGK/SBT Varget handload in it as well.

I also had my automatic powder measure go belly up yesterday, and an RCBS automated powder dispenser also arrives tomorrow. FYI, I will never own another scale/dispenser with a membrane switch user interface again.

The work's cut out, all that remains is the testing.

Greg

PS, The AR Stoner 16", 1:7" Upper is in, and it looks beautiful.
 
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svthuh

Captain Nimcompoop
Jun 13, 2011
349
73
28
37
Lost in Idaho...
Wylde chamber
20" AR15 1-8" twist
5R Rifling
Lapua case
Hornady 75gr HPBT
26gr Varget (compressed)
CCI 450 primer
2929fps
Chronoed with Magnetospeed V3

This load shows no major signs of pressure. The case-head is unmarked and the primer is flat, but not cratered. Though, with how compressed this load is, I dont believe I will be pushing it any more than this. This load gave me an SD of 13.0 over 10 shots, and if I back down to 25.8gr I see an SD of 7.8 and a MV of 2874fps.
 

03psd

Sergeant
May 27, 2006
541
5
18
North Cackalacky
Looking for an accurate load for my WOA 1:7 equipped AR. I have a box of 52gr Berger FB Target bullets I was told would be very accurate 100-200 yards. Lots of loads here for 60gr and up but not any I could find specifically for the FB Berget Target 52gr. I have the following powders on hand and would like to avoid having to add anotherto inventory unless I have too. Varget, IMR4064, 8208XBR, IMR4895, Benchmark, RL15. Thanks
 

padom

SuperMod
Staff member
Mar 13, 2013
6,513
521
113
Southeastern, Pennsylvania
Looking for an accurate load for my WOA 1:7 equipped AR. I have a box of 52gr Berger FB Target bullets I was told would be very accurate 100-200 yards. Lots of loads here for 60gr and up but not any I could find specifically for the FB Berget Target 52gr. I have the following powders on hand and would like to avoid having to add anotherto inventory unless I have too. Varget, IMR4064, 8208XBR, IMR4895, Benchmark, RL15. Thanks
I have or had 15+ WOA 1:7 barrels. A lot of bullets shot great but nothing shot better than 77smk over 8208XBR. Always in the 23.4 - 23.6 range.



 

03psd

Sergeant
May 27, 2006
541
5
18
North Cackalacky
I have or had 15+ WOA 1:7 barrels. A lot of bullets shot great but nothing shot better than 77smk over 8208XBR. Always in the 23.4 - 23.6 range.



That looks fantastic. I have a 500 box of 77gr SMK sitting on the self. I will give them a try. As long as I can load them to 2.25 COAL (magazine length) and get consistent sub .75 MOA performance I would be thrilled. I can get semi consistant 1 MOA from just about anything this side of AE FMJ or PPU. Its when you shrink the expectation by 25% and want it every time that things get challenging and so-so loads and factory Match usually far by the way side. Thanks again!
 
Oct 13, 2013
300
3
18
Missouri
I have a Daniel Defense 16" barrel in 1:7 twist. I know it is not a match barrel/gun but looking to get what I can out of it. I bought the Tipped SMK 77 gr bullets and wanting to find a load 600 yds or so. I am used to loading for custom bolt guns capable of sub .25 to .5 MOA. Just learning to load for the gas gun. Have loaded many rounds for it but not really to see what it can do longer range. Any suggestions for powders for this. I use CCI BR-4 primers and Lake City brass. Also, how do I know if the gas is right for this loading. Again not real confident in gas guns. I think it is a mid-length gas. It has a free-floating handguard. Thanks for your help!
 

Xander3Zero

Just a normal dude.
Aug 10, 2017
460
133
43
Rhode Island
I have a Daniel Defense 16" barrel in 1:7 twist. I know it is not a match barrel/gun but looking to get what I can out of it. I bought the Tipped SMK 77 gr bullets and wanting to find a load 600 yds or so. I am used to loading for custom bolt guns capable of sub .25 to .5 MOA. Just learning to load for the gas gun. Have loaded many rounds for it but not really to see what it can do longer range. Any suggestions for powders for this. I use CCI BR-4 primers and Lake City brass. Also, how do I know if the gas is right for this loading. Again not real confident in gas guns. I think it is a mid-length gas. It has a free-floating handguard. Thanks for your help!
With the 77 TMK's you will have to load them longer than AR mag length, I think you are going to want to get some regular 77 SMKs or try the 73 ELD-M's which are designed to be loaded to mag length.
 
Oct 13, 2013
300
3
18
Missouri
Sierra's site says this:
.22 CALIBER (.224) 77 GR. TIPPED MATCHKING (TMK)
Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. Another benefit is reliable feeding in magazine fed firearms. The 77 grain Tipped MatchKing (TMK) allows seating to an OAL that permits cartridges to be loaded into M16/AR15 magazines.

I loaded them and at mag length and they shot pretty well without any load development. Looking to see what powder people are having best luck with to start with. I know I will have to do my own load development but want 2 or 3 powders to start with. Thanks.
 
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