2018 Wisconsin Events and Shooting thread

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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Well I get the pleasure of doing a last minute load work up for the Border Wars match on the 21st. I started seeing pressure signs on my once fired 6XC brass using the same recipe as when the brass was virgin. Wasn't anything terrible but enough to make me want to go back and just double check. It was still stupid accurate just started to show a little cratering on the primers. Nothing major, just enough to warrant going back and taking a look.

Recipe was for the virgin brass was:
39.7 of H4350
Sierra 107 Matchkings
.040" off the lands
Federal Gold Medal Match primers
Norma Brass

The once fired brass was depcapped, tumbled, ran through the decapper again to remove media from the flash hole, resized with a Whidden FL Bushing die, bumping the shoulder back .002", no trimming was necessary as brass was still in spec, chamfered and deburred then loaded with the above recipe.

The only thing I can think of, is my brass was coming out at different shoulder lengths after initial firing. I know brass has a memory but thought all casings would be pretty close.

Any ideas gents?
 

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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Only some of the second firing cases are showing it? Let's see a picture
I only fired 8 the other day before hitting the bayonet on my Magnetospeed. They all showed pressure. I did switch over to the Area 419 suppressor/brake mounting system so that may also be an issue. That's when I decided it wasn't going to be my day and packed it in. Magnetospeed replacement bayonet showed up on Friday so I get to cram some stuff in last minute. Which goes against my entire life's philosophy but sometimes you just can't win.

I"ll attach some pics in a second.
 

Namekagon

Online Training Member
Mar 22, 2018
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Wausau, WI
Did you run the new brass through the same sizing die before loading the first time? Could it be a difference in neck tension on the second loads?

The other thing I would check is if you have any of the bullet bearing surface seated into the "donut" area.
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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How was the bolt lift? That doesn't look to bad to me. Any other signs of pressure, ejector marks?

Which primers?

I always have lower pressure on forming
 

Namekagon

Online Training Member
Mar 22, 2018
84
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Wausau, WI
Ok, walked away from computer and had another brain drizzle. You sized them with a bushing die. Does it use an expander ball also? I don't have a bushing-style die, but I understand they size the neck based on the outside dimensions of the case neck. Hence, neck turning becomes more important for consistent inside dimensions. Otherwise, the bushing die forces all imperfections in the thickness of the case neck into the inside of the neck.

You could be getting slightly thicker neck thickness after the first firing from brass flowing into the neck. Then sizing with a bushing but not expander would produce smaller inside diameter for the case mouth.
 

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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The Frozen Tundra
Geno- No bolt lift issues or extractor marks. Just want to avoid issues when it starts getting to be 80*F outside. It was 30*F the other day when I was shooting.

Namekagon- I don't run my virgin brass through a sizing die at all. I take the expander ball out of all my dies.
 

Namekagon

Online Training Member
Mar 22, 2018
84
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Wausau, WI
If the virgin brass wasn't sized, I'm betting this is a neck tension issue.

For my 6XC, I neck size the virgin Norma brass just to make sure the necks are still concentric and tension is consistent. Its the only time I use my neck die these days. I have had Norma case necks show up out of round, either from shipping damage or something. I figure if I can see problems with some of them, what problems exist that I can't see without measurement of each one?

Even if your virgin brass was perfect, the tension your die is setting into the necks may be different than what Norma sent you.
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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Put a couple rounds in your short pocket under your jacket when you head to the range. After a couple of cold rounds, put each round out of your pocket straight into the chamber and shoot it fairly quickly. That will give you a pretty good idea if it'll cause problems in warmer weather. H4350 is a fairly stable powder but it's always good to check
 
Mar 17, 2010
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If I am reading this all correctly- your brass that is now loaded for a second time is showing signs of pressure but didn't show it on the first go around.

If this is the concern and you are trying to figure out why?
Number one - your brass is now fire formed to your particular chamber - you may have been on the edge of pressure but it did not surface because the brass was expanding to the size of the chamber versus the new factory specs.

Now when you load the same charge there is not as much space to take up when the round is fired so theres more resistance causing the pressure to build faster during the powder burn.

You should be able to drop your charge weight a few 10ths and adjust it to the point of what speeds you averaged with the 1st round brass. Then you should be good and if your lucky your dope won't change much either.


Just a thought
 
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RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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Going to roll with the 39.7 for this weekend's match. Tried Geno's suggestion of throwing a few rounds in my pocket and then shooting them in a warm/hot chamber. Primer cratering didn't increase in severity so I'm going to roll with it for now.
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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Going to roll with the 39.7 for this weekend's match. Tried Geno's suggestion of throwing a few rounds in my pocket and then shooting them in a warm/hot chamber. Primer cratering didn't increase in severity so I'm going to roll with it for now.
If it's still grouping well I'd roll with it too
 
Mar 17, 2010
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198 grains of H50BMG per round and I wanted it to be 100% of a hot day on the range for finalizing load development so we can run cool and have no pressure issues or stress to brass to fight with. So far the 400s are running up to 3480 fps with no signs of a sticky bolt or primers going south. I have a sweet spot tack driver at 3450 fps and might stay with it . It would still be intresting to see how far we could go to see signs of pressure. Theres a lot of powder in a fat case and I just wanted true feed back with less money and time wasted.
 
Sep 16, 2011
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198 grains of H50BMG per round and I wanted it to be 100% of a hot day on the range for finalizing load development so we can run cool and have no pressure issues or stress to brass to fight with. So far the 400s are running up to 3480 fps with no signs of a sticky bolt or primers going south. I have a sweet spot tack driver at 3450 fps and might stay with it . It would still be intresting to see how far we could go to see signs of pressure. Theres a lot of powder in a fat case and I just wanted true feed back with less money and time wasted.
Hey Jeff and others,
I recall from Hatcher’s notebook, which is excellent reference material, that in proving ground tests for temp variations, many factors were unaccounted for. Other factors were discovered only after tests showed counterintuitive results. Alaskan cold weather m2 ball ammo tests were skewed by soldiers going indoors to warm up next to a hot cast iron wood stove. Of course the ammo absorbed lots of heat. Other experiments more germane to your experiment were tests done to demonstrate how quickly brass absorbs and sheds heat energy. Consider any centerfire cartridge case. Fired from a bolt rifle, a fired casing from even the fastest bolt operation is warm to the touch, though easily handled. A case fired from an automatic system results in a case that is easily hot enough to burn.
To be an accurate test, I’d consider keeping time from opening the oven to firing next to nonexistent.
Of course I don’t presume you are ignorant of this. I just mention it so that I may enhance the validity of your test.
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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Maybe a heat gun on the chamber... there are a few ways to mitigate the drop in heat but some is better than none. A big case like that I would think would take a bigger swing in temp to make a noteable difference than something like a 6br.

You have about 200fps the catch Garrett though! He's got that 416 smokin!!!
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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It's really pretty awesome you guys are getting this big bullets going that fast, hitting that far! Hopefully the wind will cooperate a little more this year at the KO2M, I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.

How many rounds of brass do you have for that monster?
 
Mar 22, 2006
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Maybe a heat gun on the chamber... there are a few ways to mitigate the drop in heat but some is better than none. A big case like that I would think would take a bigger swing in temp to make a noteable difference than something like a 6br.

You have about 200fps the catch Garrett though! He's got that 416 smokin!!!

Lol, this whole project was designed and built because Eduardo turned the screws to the weight limit. I had some idea of how fast it was going to go but didn't expect to see the results I'm seeing. I'll be testing today, hopefully the results are what I want to see. More later.
 
Likes: Geno C.

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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Lol, this whole project was designed and built because Eduardo turned the screws to the weight limit. I had some idea of how fast it was going to go but didn't expect to see the results I'm seeing. I'll be testing today, hopefully the results are what I want to see. More later.
Right on man!! Improvise, overcome, adapt!
 
Mar 22, 2006
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Right on man!! Improvise, overcome, adapt!

Exactly! Today's numbers were stupid impressive. I think i'm narrowing down my spreads. Tonight I just fixed the finish on the insides of my necks. After all the work to make the cases the final finish wasn't as smooth as I'd like it. You could notice the variation during bullet seating, I think that was why I'd have a few that ran right next to each other then a couple that had variation. If tomorrows test proves out well this thing will be a laser beam.

Can you say 3758fps from a 422gr bullet? haha, fastest numbers I've seen on my Labradar to date!
 
Feb 9, 2013
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Saturday was the first WPRSC match of the year. A new location, Cascade Wi, let's us shoot out to 1,000yds. I was very excited for this match. I got there early and started helping set up. Well, a long story short I was going to town driving in a T post and managed to bash myself in the head with the driver. Lots of blood. Was taken to a hospital in Fond Du Lac. 3 staples later I was released. I rode back to the range and helped RO the rest of the stages. I feel ok, just sore. I have pictures if anyone wants to see them.

Anyway, Rotojager and I are off to SD for a long weekend for a PRS shoot. I'll keep yall posted.
 

Namekagon

Online Training Member
Mar 22, 2018
84
56
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Wausau, WI
Help! I want to sign up for a WPRSC match. It would be my first prs-style match.

I don't have facebook. My brother is letting me use his account for this, so I went on and joined the WPRSC facebook group.

How the heck do I sign up? Thought maybe once I could see the FB group page, it would be obvious. Still completely lost, which I'm sure is because I'm a social media moron. I don't want to bug the match leaders with my incompetence if I can help it.

Any tips would be really appreciated!
 

Namekagon

Online Training Member
Mar 22, 2018
84
56
18
Wausau, WI
FYI:
Wood County Rifle and Pistol Club is hosting a High Power match in Wisconsin Rapids this weekend. 600yd slow fire (and F-class) is tomorrow starting at 9:00 AM. Didn't know if I could make it until today, so I called to sign up this morning. At that time I was the only F-class shooter, so if anyone is interested I'm sure there are spots open. The entry form can be downloaded from the WCRP website, towards the bottom:

https://wcrifle.org/

The entry form includes a phone number you can call for info, and I'm sure they will accept late entries by phone.
 

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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The Frozen Tundra
FYI:
Wood County Rifle and Pistol Club is hosting a High Power match in Wisconsin Rapids this weekend. 600yd slow fire (and F-class) is tomorrow starting at 9:00 AM. Didn't know if I could make it until today, so I called to sign up this morning. At that time I was the only F-class shooter, so if anyone is interested I'm sure there are spots open. The entry form can be downloaded from the WCRP website, towards the bottom:

https://wcrifle.org/

The entry form includes a phone number you can call for info, and I'm sure they will accept late entries by phone.
The sign up for the June 2nd WPRSC is open. Maybe try to message John on here to get details. @Jec375
 

RoterJager

The Red Hunter
Oct 21, 2013
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The Frozen Tundra
There were a few reason that when combined I ended up going with the .30 cal. .338 Lapua was intriguing because of the factory ammo availability in a pinch but it doesn't perform as well as .300 Norma from what I'm seeing in my research. Cost of ammo/components was a bit of a factor. I already have two .30 Cal cans. I didn't want to eat up $1000+ in obtaining a new .338 can. That $1000 can be used for a range finder or spotter set up. Going to wait to see what the Terrapin X does and I'm eyeballing a Hensoldt if I can get my comp time/overtime bank built up over the next 6-8 months.

There are obviously a lot of great .338 options out there beyond the Lapua, like the Norma, Edge and Rogue but they aren't common enough for me to make that jump. Lapua is releasing .300 Norma and .338 Norma brass sometime at the end of the 2nd Quarter (most likely 3rd or 4th quarter) so that's what attracted me to the Norma variants. Once I got to that point, then it become about performance vs cost.
 

Geno C.

Dirty Carnie
Oct 24, 2007
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Fair enough I guess. My thought process is leading me to something bigger than a 30 for past 1500. When the wind kicks up that mass will really help.
 
Mar 22, 2006
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The tough part with the 30cal is spotting impacts due to the lighter smaller bullet. Beyond that 1600yd with any mirage it gets rough. Add in some green and or not desert sand it become real tough. Stick to lead core bullets as they show a better splash on target. We have been playing around with some Badlands copper solids in the 338, they are an awesome bullet but being a solid they are sometimes hard to see impacts at distance.
 
Mar 17, 2010
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I saw a few guys mention shooting at wood co rifle and pistol range, how many of you are members there? Anyone interested in meeting up for an informal shoot sometime?
I know Northern50 shot there a fair amount but he moved out of the area, there are a few local folks that have shot there but they are not on the forum.
I’ve been there once but have not been back due to my work schedule, travels with shooting and my back yard range.

I would keep asking there are folks on here that like shooting and hopefully you can hook up with someone.


Oneshot
JH
 
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