1986 Miami

hermosabeach

Everything is true on the internet- Abe Lincoln
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If you are not very familiar with this event, read up on this shootout

Lots to learn from the blood that was spilled
- do you target shoot in remote areas
- do you own but not wear armor as it is too hot
- do you train for center of available mass hit- aim small- hit small
- practice stoppages/ malfunction drills


 
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Rick H.

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Mar 13, 2002
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Massad Ayoob did an extensive write-up about it in American Handgunner. I know there are people that aren't fans of his, but I really enjoyed his column, The Ayoob Files. That article was a standout on a few levels, especially his way of examining how training and current doctrine influenced the participants and impacted the outcome.
 

Culpeper

"Goodbye, Rutten"
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I read up on it a couple of times. Has a lot to do with why I prefer the Ruger Mini rifle platform over an AR or AK. Especially, now that Ruger reworked the whip bug-a-boo.
 

Rick H.

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A similar situation to what was reported in the Newhall shooting is reported to have occured in the murder of NJ State Trooper Philip Lamonaco. And I believe that is also what precipitated the change from revolvers to the HK P7 back then too.
 
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oneshot86

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Do you stop in a gunfight to pick up your brass because that’s what they taught on the range??

It is the event that changed a lot in le. Like the North Hollywood shootout.

Sirhr
it sure did.
as a embassy guard this incident was fully visited in class...
also heavily covered was terminal wound vs immediate incapacitation
 

Douglas-001

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I remember when this happened. I thought to myself the feds must have been really outgunned! I never gave it more thought-I was 15 at the time and really can't recall hearing too much more about it. That would be by design I suppose.....After reading more details and background on the incident, it seems that the prior military service of both bad guys is overlooked. My point is that they were clearly determined to keep fighting, possibly a function of training and experience. I do not put them on any pedestal, but I guess you never know who you may cross paths with out in the real world. Many other factors involved to be sure, but I think I may re evaluate the caliber I carry and just how much more ammo to go with it.... 🤔....
 

c1steve

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I often wondered what was the mindset of the FBI agents, going into a potential gunfight with absolutely minimal firearms and little thought through.

The FBI decided that the problem was that their ammo was too weak, so the 10mm was developed. This was a failure of tactics more than anything else. Tactics and the apparent assumption that the bank robbers would not put up a fight. I have great sympathy for the agents that were shot, but they have them selves to blame for being unprepared.
 

c1steve

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A similar situation to what was reported in the Newhall shooting is reported to have occured in the murder of NJ State Trooper Philip Lamonaco. And I believe that is also what precipitated the change from revolvers to the HK P7 back then too.
Newhall,

Also so very sad, but a lack of training or unwillingness to wait 60 seconds for the second patrol vehicle to arrive on the scene was the primary reason for the failure.
 

Pbgt

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Hindsight is always 20/20. Today we have a shit ton of video/audio and sheer statistics to analyze from which to make more accurate assessments, change training protocol ect...without throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks Crap like:. ...double tap, stop and access or always scanning left, then right. In light of some of these tragic shootings, hopefully other LEO might make it home safely.
 

Renegade

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A similar situation to what was reported in the Newhall shooting is reported to have occured in the murder of NJ State Trooper Philip Lamonaco. And I believe that is also what precipitated the change from revolvers to the HK P7 back then too.
Lamonaco emptied his revolver but was unable to reload. The assailants used 9mms. This was pretty much the tipping point for most LE in NJ to go to autos if they were not there already.
 

Gunfighter14e2

Rusty Nail
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I often wondered what was the mindset of the FBI agents, going into a potential gunfight with absolutely minimal firearms and little thought through.

The FBI decided that the problem was that their ammo was too weak, so the 10mm was developed. This was a failure of tactics more than anything else. Tactics and the apparent assumption that the bank robbers would not put up a fight. I have great sympathy for the agents that were shot, but they have them selves to blame for being unprepared.
^^^^^this^^^^^
Remember the perception was the FBI was invincible back then an they believed that hype their self's (FBI).
They knew these guys were not going top go with the program from the get go, yet they kept stepping on their dicks from the plate spot to the start of the shoot out. All they had to do was have a little patients, but once they seen the plate their tactical blinders started closing in. They fully understood what these guys were about, an capable of an yet cast all that to the wind.

The movie wants you to believe it was the perps that were totally responsible for their death, which they were to a point. The Agents however own some of the responsibility their self's do to lack of clear thinking.

I had just finished up at Baptist Hospital in Kindle when this started an was told by the chief eng (who had a scanner in his office) to avoid that area for 2-3 hrs. Damn shame, they could have just followed from a far with 4-5 in an out tactics an it would have played out much different I think.
 
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fpgt72

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^^^^^this^^^^^
Remember the perception was the FBI was invincible back then an they believed that hype their self's (FBI).
They knew these guys were not going top go with the program from the get go, yet they kept stepping on their dicks from the plate spot to the start of the shoot out. All they had to do was have a little patients, but once they seen the plate their tactical blinders started closing in. They fully understood what these guys were about, an capable of an yet cast all that to the wind.

The movie wants you to believe it was the perps that were totally responsible for their death, which they were to a point. The Agents however own some of the responsibility their self's do to lack of clear thinking.

I had just finished up at Baptist Hospital in Kindle when this started an was told by the chief eng (who had a scanner in his office) to avoid that area for 2-3 hrs. Damn shame, they could have just followed from a far with 4-5 in an out tactics an it would have played out much different I think.
Well to a point....and this is what you get when 90% of peoples total knowledge comes from movies and wikipeda.

They had more "heavy" units available.....they had no idea where these two idiots would go next....everyone was everywhere....it was just "bad luck" that the weakest units (in terms of armor and arms) are the ones that found them first. Everything from high powered rifles to SMG officers are all over town looking.....you never read that unless you really dig.

Someone also brought up newhall....this is another "modern".....engagement I guess I will say.....that points to a shift in policy when you get a crazy that is not going to go quietly. The "LA shooting" is another.....I was around for this one, and this is when we started seeing rifles in patrol cars.

One thing about working in law enforcement is......well how I see it is it is something that politicians just don't want to spend money on.....

I will leave it there as more typing is really hurting my broken thumb.
 

Soulezoo

Hide Sommelier and Connoisseur of fine spirits
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I often wondered what was the mindset of the FBI agents, going into a potential gunfight with absolutely minimal firearms and little thought through.

The FBI decided that the problem was that their ammo was too weak, so the 10mm was developed. This was a failure of tactics more than anything else. Tactics and the apparent assumption that the bank robbers would not put up a fight. I have great sympathy for the agents that were shot, but they have them selves to blame for being unprepared.
Just nit picking here, but the 10mm was already developed and on the commercial market a few years before the FBI decided to adopt it. Then the 10mm recoil made their vaginas hurt so they created the attenuated 10mm. From that evolved the .40 S&W.
 

j-huskey

Jafo / Instigator !
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I'd been in LE about 10 years total when that SHTF.
I'd also seen some junk in a bad place.
I knew LE was not ready for what Platt and Matix brought to the table because of juvenile attitudes of a lot of LE and the invincible attitude of the fb1.

Street Survival was not new, newhall and other failures of the 38 in NY were big discussion topics, go 9mm semi auto (two choices S&W 39 or 59...) were all in place when I was hired by dept 3 in 81.
You had to have 3 years experience (81) to be allowed to carry a semi auto. Body armor was not issued, and yes, we had had an officer killed by a shotgun blast.
That officer loss was right after RVN and in those days you could carry anything you could qualify with, even though the 38 was "the LE pistol" then.
The 60's riots and RVN protests had the vet officers carrying 44's n 45's. The pussy officers carried less...
What a miasma of changes and attitudes!!!

By 81, the dept had removed free carry, 41m, 44m, 45acp, and the 30-30 lever action that was "the deputies friend", had to be more uniform...
I had carried on duty a 1911 and browning hi-power, and God forbid cocked n locked.... I hated going to that roaring 357 model 19...
I had to sneak the AK47 into the trunk on weekend shifts. There was one neighborhood that had a few RVN bring back AK's and I figured fair was fair....

I took an awful lot of grief for what I carried and buying my own body armor, and at one point, I was real happy to see some chickenshit officers leave the dept when some bad people outgunned and overwhelmed them. Made my life easier.

The old combat vet officers smiled at me and my naivete about the dept rules. fb1 didnt want grumpy combat vet officers or street thugs like me. The fb1 and total LE attitude created the 86 shtf. It was due, every now and then, even today, somebody has to die for dumbass attitudes and rules to change.

Also clear in posts, that history is forgotten, and somebody remembers and posts the reality, and 86 was a wake up year for a lot of complacent LE.

The fb1 high n mighty attitude surfaced later in some worse things, and Bill Clitton and Janet ReNO scared me worse than Platt or Matix....

But that's all old history and the reminiscences of an older grumpy guy. LE was a different world then, and depending on where you were, was anything from Andy n Barney n between to the SS/Gestapo.
The RVN vets said it was a lot like RVN, the delta war was different from the DMZ war, the highlands were different from the cities... night and day different. LE was pretty much the same, night and day different.

You had to have lived through it to really see how the fb1's set themselves up.
The fb1 agents in our area were more involved in fancy suits, and appearances, most not carrying at all, leaving guns and body armor locked in the trunk. Schmoozers...

The US Marshals played for real.

jmho and ymmv.
 
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j-huskey

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was the FBI as corrupt back then as they are now?
Looking back, hard, at it, depended on where you were.
In 86 we had two agents assigned to us, one was top notch, one, less so.
When they retired, their replacements were my age and peer group, and several were former municipal LE, some from our agency.

Individually, I didnt know any I wouldn't want marrying my daughters.

But, we also didnt have Whitey Bulger types running around here either, nor, the type agents that ran Bulger.
We did have the Democratic Convention plumber types from Nixon days in the state, just not our city. The bigger the city, the better chance of politically correct agents pushing overall agendas.

And the most corrupt seen today, were coming up then. ...

There were lots of good agents, I worked with them and got to know them well, then there were Hoover pets who were both untouchable and has no moral character. I was afraid of those. Very...

I lived through the two worst fiascoes regularly mentioned here, and talked to several of the participants. Most of the agents were horrified by those two events just like us. And some made your skin crawl...

So, jmho, I see status quo. The amount of politicized agents has grown equally along with the overall citizen population.

And fwiw, I also knew Lt. William Calley......
And Robert Howard, who grew up here...
My opinion and $5.00 might get you some coffee at most restaurant chains.. 😖

If you asked MLK or Ralph David Abernathy what they thought, you would be told fb1 were the instruments of Satan...
 
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j-huskey

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was the FBI as corrupt back then as they are now?
U have made me remember shit I'd rather forget.. ..
Watergate was not an aberration. It was the fb1 norm. There are enough references to plumbers and Hoovers violations of wire tapping no different from todays violations of privacy under NSA now. Nothing has changed in the guise of national security, you have no rights.
Chuck Colsen was a gunfighter hired by Hoover to teach gun fighting and an original plumber, and he was unapologetic about any of it in his book.

Depends on who writes the story about who is right. Salah and Weiss, versus J.L. Heaney writing about Tiger Force in RVN, and Hoovers version about fb1 greatness versus what some of us lived through. It AINT the same story.

After reflecting, NOTHING has changed...

Now, I met General Hal Moore, knew Robert Howard, and knew what kind of presence I was in....
I met Ed Mireles. He was the same high character as Moore and Howard. I believe I know why God kept Mireles alive in 86.... some of us who have survived a shitstorm recognize why some people are left with us.

I met Chuck Colson and knew what kind of presence I was in....
Wasnt Moore, Howard, or Mireles character fer sure.

No AJ, nothing has changed, there is good out there, and there is evil. Nothing has changed....

Hoovers elite always got their prey, no holds barred. CONUS didnt matter to them. AND not everybody was trusted enough to be his elite... the rest were just common worker bees..
 
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c1steve

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JH, thanks for the personal experience and viewpoint. I suspect that some rule beding is allowed, as long as nothing goes sideways. When rule benders think they are above the law, then major problems occur. Rules are there to keep the system honest in check, but a little bending of rules occasionally helps justice be served.
 
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Sean the Nailer

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JH, thanks for the personal experience and viewpoint. I suspect that some rule beding is allowed, as long as nothing goes sideways. When rule benders think they are above the law, then major problems occur. Rules are there to keep the system honest in check, but a little bending of rules occasionally helps justice be served.
I like that term 'bend',,,, like that one cop in the riot line who was adding a 'bend' to his nightstick. Good analogy.
 

lonegunman762x51

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Over in Idaho they remember when the FBI showed up in 1992 to murder a family for refusing to spy for them.

Down in Texas the FBI burned an entire compound to the ground and killed nearly 80 people to arrest a single person for questionable firearms purchases.

The FBI has never been as good as their TV show used to be. Same with NCIS, the Naval investigators who once framed a man for blowing up a turret on the U.S.S. Iowa in order to cover-up shoddy gunpowder storage and a cast of senior crew members who were experimenting with mixing types of powder contrary to written orders and guidence. Their TV show is far better than their reality.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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Down in Texas the FBI burned an entire compound to the ground and killed nearly 80 people to arrest a single person for questionable firearms purchases.
That is Incorrect, A UPS driver dropped a heavy box that broke open an "De-Milled" grenades fell out. Adhering to the code of lets fuck these people because they thought/acted different than he did, he notified the ATF. They started an investigation because Re-Hoe an Cigar bill were looking for numbers, no matter how many laws they broke getting them. The rest is history,... Even the ATF agents assigned to servile said it was a cluster-fuck do to DC. They (DC) wanted to project that they would do what they wanted to prove to the sheep when uncle comes calling, just crawl into the fetal position an start swallowing or we will kill you ass,... Hence some of the photos the cocksuckers took of dead kids, showing they were proud of what they did,...
 

c1steve

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David Koresh had a plan to have maximum control over his followers. Perhaps his organization was starting to have cracks, and he saw the writing on the wall. The end result is that Koresh planned the deaths as he was a control freak.

The FBI ATF just played into his hands, as they were poorly led and wanted publicity.
 
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hermosabeach

Everything is true on the internet- Abe Lincoln
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David Koresh had a plan to have maximum control over his followers. Perhaps his organization was starting to have cracks, and he saw the writing on the wall. The end result is that Koresh planned the deaths as he was a control freak.

The FBI ATF just played into his hands, as they were poorly led and wanted publicity.
I'll disagree.... Koresh walked to the end of his driveway daily
Koresh went into town regularly

LEO pulled up on his home, full with kids, and opened fire... a botched assassination attempt

FBI paid a lot of money at Waco and Ruby Ridge.... FBI Miami was different... hot... body armor not worn as it was hot... Bank robbers with a history of murder... and they helped the world develop better tactics
 
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