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Thread: Electronic Form 4 Wait Times

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    Electronic Form 4 Wait Times

    I wanted to start a list of wait times with the new electronic system. Will it be faster on approvals? Who knows! Once I submitted mine the money came straight out of my account.

    Has anyone made it throught the entire process and in comparison to snail mail, how long did it take?

    Thanks.

    TTF Ark30
    Submitted elctronically: 08 Dec 2013; BATFE system kicked it into draft status, had to resubmit 01/06/14-DAMNIT!
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: June 26, 2014
    Stamp in Hand: June 27, 2014

    Boo yah!!!!
    Last edited by Bunnypunter; 07-06-2014 at 04:58 PM.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
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    I just submitted my first eform but know others who submitted in early September who have their stamps back. Was just over 3 months from submission according to my class 3 dealer.

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    I had a dealer tell me last week that he has not had a single one filed electronically take over 4 months yet. And most he said are taking about 3 months to get back.

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    Sounds like a good thread to start. i got a couple F1's I am going to efile this week as well.

    Silencerco Spectre II
    Submitted electronically 12-11-2013
    Pending 12-11-2013

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    White 22SparrowSS
    Submitted electronically: 9/04/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/04/2013
    Stamp in Hand: No Stamps for Eforms, they get emailed back to your dealer and they can print one off or send you the electronic copy.

    TiRant
    Submitted electronically: 9/17/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/23/2013

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    Is it possible to eForm a transfer with a CLEO signature, or only via trusts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRSDriver View Post
    Is it possible to eForm a transfer with a CLEO signature, or only via trusts?
    You can only eform a trust or LLC, nothing yet for individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye308 View Post
    White 22SparrowSS
    Submitted electronically: 9/04/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/04/2013
    Stamp in Hand: No Stamps for Eforms, they get emailed back to your dealer and they can print one off or send you the electronic copy.

    TiRant
    Submitted electronically: 9/17/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/23/2013
    That's awesome to see. I've got 3 Eform suppressors/form 4s I submitted a month ago. I hope the 3 month trend continues and that it's the same in Texas.

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    can you submit an eform your self of does a dealer have to do it?
    Offering BRASS ANNEALING & BRASS PREP SERVICE.
    please pm or email me for more info.
    http://www.thebrassannealer.com/
    thebrassannealer@yahoo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye308 View Post
    White 22SparrowSS
    Submitted electronically: 9/04/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/04/2013
    Stamp in Hand: No Stamps for Eforms, they get emailed back to your dealer and they can print one off or send you the electronic copy.

    TiRant
    Submitted electronically: 9/17/2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved: 12/23/2013

    Have you received word from your Dealer on the Sparrow, or does the actual mailing/processing take months? Are you able to be completely through the process in 3-4 months?
    I've heard conflicting reports on the electronic submittals - some Dealers have told me it expedites the $ and going pending immediately only, thus cutting out 2-3 months time overall. If they are 3-4 months total, that is incredible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by joemusso View Post
    can you submit an eform your self of does a dealer have to do it?
    Dealers have to submit the form 4s, an individual can submit a form 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blair View Post
    Have you received word from your Dealer on the Sparrow, or does the actual mailing/processing take months? Are you able to be completely through the process in 3-4 months?
    I've heard conflicting reports on the electronic submittals - some Dealers have told me it expedites the $ and going pending immediately only, thus cutting out 2-3 months time overall. If they are 3-4 months total, that is incredible!
    Well I do the eforms for work, so what happens is we receive an email with the approved form and a picture of a stamp on it. All we have to do is print it off and/or email it to the customer and they come in and pick it up. With eforms there is no actual stamp or paperwork mailed at all.

    The latest email from the ATF stated that they are looking at paper forms taking 9 months and eforms taking 6 months. I believe that the time will start to creep up to the 6 month mark but I am still seeing 3-4 months now.

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    So are the e-forms available to all dealers or is it a select few? Still the same process as before: get finger prints, sign off, and money? Just goes online?
    Where can I find more info on this. Can anyone provide a link to the info? Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye308 View Post
    Well I do the eforms for work, so what happens is we receive an email with the approved form and a picture of a stamp on it. All we have to do is print it off and/or email it to the customer and they come in and pick it up. With eforms there is no actual stamp or paperwork mailed at all.

    The latest email from the ATF stated that they are looking at paper forms taking 9 months and eforms taking 6 months. I believe that the time will start to creep up to the 6 month mark but I am still seeing 3-4 months now.

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWhairlessyeti View Post
    So are the e-forms available to all dealers or is it a select few? Still the same process as before: get finger prints, sign off, and money? Just goes online?
    Where can I find more info on this. Can anyone provide a link to the info? Thanks.
    E forms are available to everyone. Takes just a few minutes to set up. I have found that some dealers are being resistant to it. I got a TBAC can i am waiting snail mail on because the dealer wouldn't do it.
    Eforms are only available for trust or legal entity use. Credit card is the form of payment.

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    Just started the wait to get my first cans...I'm my dealer's guinea pig when it comes to efliling. He's skeptical when it comes to them going through quicker. We'll see.

    AAC 7.62-SDN-6
    Submitted electronically: 24 Dec 2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved:
    Stamp in Hand:

    SWR Spectre II
    Submitted electronically: 24 Dec 2013
    Pending: Immediate
    Approved:
    Stamp in Hand:

    Silencerco Osprey 45
    Currently waiting on transfer to dealer. Probably 45 days out for them to get it in hand and start the paperwork.

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    I wound up submitting a Form 1 on the Eforms sight yesterday to go with the F4 that got Eformed on th 11th. I will be curious to see if there is any difference in speed on them. I would think being electronic they all go to the same place unlike the paper filing.

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    So I admit I am not all that educated on this subject, but I already have my form 4 trust set up from a previous suppressor purchase (not sure if that nomenclature is all correct).
    I Recently filled out my paperwork, paid for, and submitted for another suppressor (assuming another form 4) thru my dealer in November. Is it to late or even possible to go back and e-file? Would this save me any time?

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    Submitted eForm 1:12/27/2013
    Pending: Immediately
    Stamp Back: ???
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svendogg View Post
    So I admit I am not all that educated on this subject, but I already have my form 4 trust set up from a previous suppressor purchase (not sure if that nomenclature is all correct).
    I Recently filled out my paperwork, paid for, and submitted for another suppressor (assuming another form 4) thru my dealer in November. Is it to late or even possible to go back and e-file? Would this save me any time?
    Leave what you got. It'll take a lot of time to get a refund and redo it. Use it for the next one!

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    Dang it! That's what I figured. What a bummer. Well thanks for the input though I appreciate it.
    Just a short 10 more months.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svendogg View Post
    Dang it! That's what I figured. What a bummer. Well thanks for the input though I appreciate it.
    Just a short 10 more months.....
    Just go pick out another can and efile a form 4 on that one, then you can have a race to see which papers you get back first. It's an educational exercise, and a fun one at that!

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    I have a Form 4 currently pending that was royally screwed up by the dealer/manufacturer and when I caught them in it they spent 18 months conjuring lies about the transfer did I drive up there and find the (supposedly submitted TWICE) paperwork sitting out in a jumbled mess did I get it submitted. It should be done in April 2014 (Pending 03 July 2013), the process started in October 2011.

    In the mean time I've had 2 serially submitted Form 1's approve, I sat around and haven't sent anything for a 8 months, and now I've submitted the eForm 1 which will likely go through at the same time or before this albatross of a Form 4 happens.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan

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    Great idea, one can never have enough suppressors. If the gentleman at TBAC wanted to donate a 223P-1 or 22L-1 for this experiment, I'll pay for the stamp. Then I would have one to match the 30BA I got coming. Strictly for the sake of science, and to help other SH members of course

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    My first batch of customer's eForm 4's were 9/18/13 & they were approved on 12/24/13.

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    Most are around 3 months. I had one that just went in 10 days though. Eforms is definitely the way to go.
    Check out Griffin Armament manufacturer of sound suppressors.
    www.griffinarmament.com


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    My FFL did a trust e-file for my TBAC 30P-1. Filed on 11 Sep and got the email 12 Dec (3 Months). Best birthday present ever!

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    You guys are getting me wound up. My dealer submitted my Form 4, via eForm on 10/31. I was estimating a 9 month wait. If the 3 month timeframe holds up, I could see my suppressor around January 31. That would be terrific. I am pessimistic about this date, but you guys have my hopes up. Damn, Damn, Damn...

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    What's really tough is seeing all the short returns and having just mailed a form last month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridenrunwv View Post
    What's really tough is seeing all the short returns and having just mailed a form last month.
    That would be hard. But I've also been hearing that the times will increase to 6+ months after their "test" group was processed so we'll see. I went in with the expectation of 12 months and if it comes faster then good deal.


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    Have any of you submitted form 1 the efile route? Thinking about doing it for an SBR. Also where do you guys get your engravings done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BS6820 View Post
    Have any of you submitted form 1 the efile route? Thinking about doing it for an SBR. Also where do you guys get your engravings done?
    Just submitted one this morning. I don't plan on engraving it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrusty View Post
    Just submitted one this morning. I don't plan on engraving it...
    I thought if you form 1 you must engrave as you are the manufacturer of the SBR/SBS.

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    I submitted a F1 on Dec 25th. It wasn't too painful. I'll be curious to see the time it takes for approval being I had a suppressor submitted on the 11th as well.

    As far as I know you are required to engrave the weapon being you are now the manufacturer.

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    Ill never understand why you are required to engrave, there is NOTHING on the form 1 paperwork that says anything about engraving. In fact it even has a spot for you to put the manufacturers information. Which in my case was seekins and noveske, both wrre eformed on 9/19 and they were approved 12/24.
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    I've heard conflicting info from everyone (manufactures and personal friends) on the engraving.

    Some say it's not required on Form 1 if you're not altering the receiver and it was made by someone other than you (in my case Spike's Tactical stripped lower). Some say that it's not needed regardless because the original manufacture's serial number is sufficient enough. There is a spot on the Form 1 labeled "Description"...I left it blank as the extra comments said any "additional" information.

    If it gets kicked back, I'll write the trust name in the description and resubmit.

    I'm interested to see how it works with the eForms as far as issues with the form answers. Anyone know?
    Do you get an email and you can adjust electronically? Or is it a mailed letter?
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    I didn't want to get in trouble by listening to internet hearsay so I did my own search. I found this FAQ on the ATF site
    Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns | ATF
    Nowhere in there does it say the firearm needs to be engraved. Here it talks about the requirements for engraving but no where does it talk about short barrel anything, only the manufacturers of firearms.
    Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition - Firearms Verification Overview | ATF
    Now many will say YOU are the manufacturer but then why is there any need for sections 4a and 4g on the form 1? I left 4h blank and everything was approved, both forms I submitted were fine. They were signed by Dana Pickles which most agree is the most experienced and well versed.

    Most of the people I see saying the firearm has to be engraved are simply parroting info they read on the internet and many don't even own an SBR. Ive read where people say they talked ot an examiner and they were told that it was "implied" that you would engrave the firearm. If that were so wouldn't 4h be the place where they tell you to write what youre going to engrave on the firearm? None-the-less, getting info direct from the examiner isn't a very good source anyway as its well documented that the answer depends on the examiner. Many forms have been approved with incorrect information, forms have been disapproved that are in the exact format as forms that were previously approved, etc.

    I have on the other hand seen copies of letters from the ATF saying you do not have to engrave any additional info. I personally do not have one of these letters but I have never seen a letter saying you DO have to engrave. Not to mention nowhere on the form 1, including the explanation page that explains what to put in EVERY box does the word engrave ever come up. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy do it, but fact of the matter is, my form 1 has the manufacturer's SN on it, as well the name of the manufacturer and a nice pretty stamp and signature by an authorized ATF official.

    One thing I found odd, is on my form 1 I put the entire address for the lower manufacturer and it was changed to simply "Noveske Rifleworks LLC, United States". Semantics I suppose but it was changed FYI.

    If you make a mistake on the eform it will be disapproved, a refund will be issued and you will have to resubmit with the corrected form and begin the wait period over again. Very few people have been able to adjust any information, and as Ive read it, it was due to one of the supervisors asking a rudimentary question about a lower that someone manufactured themselves. That info is from AR15.com so take it for what its worth but that thread has been the best source for SBR eform wait times and mistakes that I have found. Fortunately I didn't make any mistakes on my forms but if you simply slow down, take your time, and read each box description thoroughly you will be fine. Biggest thing is be patient with that terrible website, it freezes and only likes certain browsers so once you hit any buttons just wait, drink a beer and eventually it will load. Also make sure to hit submit for the form AFTER you make the payment.
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    Thanks for the info. Very insightful.
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    Tagging this one to try to figure out what I'll do when TTF lets me know mine is ready.

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    The reason people say you need to engrave a receiver is that a form 1 is an aplication to make and register a title 2 firearm. If you are a manufacturer or maker you are required to have your name, city and state along with a serial number. So if you were to take 1slow01z71's Noveske lower technically Noveske made the title 1 firearm and he made it a title 2 firearms so he should have had it engraved. Now the NFA branch approved his form 1 with Noveske as the maker, not him, I have also seen a couple of forms that were returned because they didn't have the trust name listed as the maker. So I'm not really sure if even the NFA Branch knows.


    1slow01z71 The change in the address is due to the eform system, it takes all know manufactures and lists them that way.

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    From what I'm understanding from some friends is that if you leave the additional details section blank on a Form 1, the ATF assumes you will be engraving (trust) name, city and state. Although, some examiners want you to write it down on the form regardless...

    This would account for some of the inconsistency and why people are lead to believe engraving on a Form 1 is unnecessary.

    consequently, i will spend the small amount and have it engraved to make it mine no matter what .

    Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye308 View Post
    The reason people say you need to engrave a receiver is that a form 1 is an aplication to make and register a title 2 firearm. If you are a manufacturer or maker you are required to have your name, city and state along with a serial number. So if you were to take 1slow01z71's Noveske lower technically Noveske made the title 1 firearm and he made it a title 2 firearms so he should have had it engraved. Now the NFA branch approved his form 1 with Noveske as the maker, not him, I have also seen a couple of forms that were returned because they didn't have the trust name listed as the maker. So I'm not really sure if even the NFA Branch knows.


    1slow01z71 The change in the address is due to the eform system, it takes all know manufactures and lists them that way.
    If I am now the maker of the firearm then why the hell do they even care who actual cut the billet or forged the lower if Ive now modified it in their eyes? If theyre so serious about it being engraved why do they not make you fill in box 4h and say that's what needs to be engraved. Theyre damn sure particular about everything else why does the work engrave not show up ANYWHERE on the form or FAQs? Makes no sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by thrusty View Post
    From what I'm understanding from some friends is that if you leave the additional details section blank on a Form 1, the ATF assumes you will be engraving (trust) name, city and state. Although, some examiners want you to write it down on the form regardless...

    This would account for some of the inconsistency and why people are lead to believe engraving on a Form 1 is unnecessary.

    consequently, i will spend the small amount and have it engraved to make it mine no matter what .

    Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.
    There shouldn't be any assuming in this, if they want something done a certain way its the government, theyre great at adding red tape. Why don't they say in the SBR FAQ or on the form 1 that you need to engrave the firearm and reference the engraving section in the ATF rules?

    One could extrapolate with the ambiguity of the form that the make part of "application to make and register a firearm" is in reference to actual homemade firearms or 80% lowers and the register part is for commercially made firearms youre now using as a title 2. I just think the whole damn process is flawed if in fact they do want you to engrave the SB firearm. It damn sure ought to be on the form 1 and in the SBR/SBS FAQ section. Im not too worried about anything happening as an ATF agent is the only one who can ask for my papers and my papers are linked to the roll marks on my lowers and were approved as is without any additional info in the 4h box.

    As with anything on an internet forum, its worth what you paid for it.
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    2 TTF cans submitted on eforms 9/18 stamps received 12/24. Boom!

  44. #44
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    Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Firearms Verification Overview | ATF

    #2 Name of Manufacturer
    Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
    For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch

    #7 City & State of the Importer
    Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
    For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the importer’s city and state must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch




    What does a form 1 say at the top
    Application to "Make" and Register a Firearm

    You as an individual you are "MAKING" an SBR,SBS, or a silencer..
    I never understand why people continue to listen to there friends????

    As a class II manufacture when I make a SBR,SBS, Silencer, Or a Machine Gun I engrave my company name and location "I AM THE "MAKER"
    As an individual you are no different YOU ARE THE "MAKER"
    Ever see a registered M16 lower for sale on the forums and they says its been "converted by" "BFI"
    Look at the receiver you will see "BFI" (Bushmaster) and there address on the lower along with the original "MAKERS" info...
    They did not do this for no reason at all!!!!!



    Look at your form 1. You need to engrave the name on the form 1 (3b.)
    John Doe Revocable living trust
    dumb ass, Ohio

    John Doe LLC
    My friend said, Ohio

    JD trust
    I don't have to engrave, Ohio

    I am not going to debate this I really don't care if you engrave your shit or not.
    I can tell you this, when something happens and the police look at your NFA registered receiver
    and you show them the FORM 1, is it going to match what is on the receiver???

    So when you sell the SBR or SBS do you think it stays on form 1 forever? NO IT DOES NOT!
    When you sell your Form 1 registered gun it will go out on Form 4 individual, Form 3 Dealer
    On the Form 4 or Form 3 it says.
    4a.
    Name and Address of Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm
    If you put the original manufacturer in this area your Form 4 will be kicked back out with an error letter
    stating manufacturer does not match original filing...
    Why???
    Because John Doe Revocable living trust in Dumb ass, Ohio, is the manufacture of the SBR.SBS,
    Once the Form 4 is approved the original manufactures info will no longer be present!!!!!
    Now do you understand why you have to engrave your info on the guns your "MAKING" in to SBR's or SBS's..
    Last edited by cheshier2; 12-31-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  45. #45
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    If you are in fact the manufacturer now then why do they care at all who the original manufacturer is or the roll marks they put on your lower? We don't have a gun registry so its not like they can match up the SN off of it and track it that way to link it with being a title 2 now. Also why does it not say anything about engraving the 3b info? Why does it not say anything at all about consulting the ATF guidelines for engraving on the form 1? You simply cited the ATFs engraving rules but did not cite ANYWHERE that it says you must engrave a lower. The SBR/SBS page that I linked to talks all about rules for SB firearms yet says NOTHING about engraving.

    Furthermore 3b says "applicant" not manufacturer, 4a on the other hand does say "manufacturer". At best a government document is ambiguous and lacking proper instruction on what they expect. Ive seen a few letters saying you do not have to engrave while I have never seen a letter saying you do have to engrave. Only accounts of someone talking to an examiner that said its "assumed" that someone will engrave the info which to me is a dead giveaway that's not correct. Theres no assuming when it comes to this crap, if they wanted it done, they would say it. Just like everything else on a form 1, its plain as day spelled out. Makes no sense why on the 3rd and 4th pages of the form 1 where they describe how to complete EVERY box on the form that it doesn't say "hey dipshit, the info you put in box 3b needs to be engraved per the ATF engraving guidelines".
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimichanga View Post
    2 TTF cans submitted on eforms 9/18 stamps received 12/24. Boom!
    Damn that is encouraging (for everyone but the folks who have a can in-process via the paper submittable). That is a 14 weeks turn around. It would be great for gun owners if we could get back to a 3 month tax-stamp wait-time.

    I put my recent e-form in 10/31. I will be ecstatic if I get the stamp by Feb 13 (14 weeks + 1 week for the holidays).

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    This issue of marking keeps coming up and I don't know why. The answer is quite simple, you MUST put your name (or trust name, LLC name, etc) and your city and state on the receiver if you are MAKING an SBS or SBR. "Making" means the same thing as "converting" an already manufactured shotgun, rifle OR pistol into a SBR or SBS. While you may, as a Maker, adopt the serial number of the original manufacturer (see ATF ruling below), you still have to put your name and place of making on the gun.

    ONLY if the firearm is ORIGINALLY MANUFACTURED as a registered SBS or SBR by the original manufacturer and the manufacturer has REGISTERED it as an NFA item (and transferred it to an NFA dealer) and you BUY it as a registered NFA item do you NOT have to engrave anything. Just think of it like a suppressor. If you buy a suppressor from a dealer, the manufacturer has already documented it as an NFA item and it was transferred to the dealer as an NFA item. The same is true of SBRs and SBSs. If you bought the firearm as a non-NFA firearm, no matter how you go about it, short of returning it to the manufacturer for remanufacture as a registered NFA item, YOU become the "maker" if and when you convert the rifle to a SBR.

    In short, if you put the SBR together from parts you buy, YOU are the Maker and must put the required info on the receiver regardless of what other markings there are.

    If you DON'T do so, then you have failed to comply with the NFA and I suspect that your new SBR, even with the tax-stamp paperwork, is an illegal weapon and subject to confiscation. The BATFE trusts NFA firearms Makers to follow through and do the required marking. It doesn't require verification that you have done so. The reason they don't require verification (but easily could if we annoy them enough) is that it's YOUR butt on the line if you fail or neglect to do so, and if it comes to their attention (say by some cop who actually knows the law) they need only prosecute you for violating the law, in which case the firearm itself is both evidence of the crime and contraband.

    It's really simple: If the manufacturer didn't build the gun as an NFA item, YOU are converting it and YOU are the "Maker" as defined by the GCA and must mark the firearm. End of story.

    Here's the ruling from July 10, 2013 regarding the adopting of the original serial number:

    U.S. Department of Justice
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    Office of the Director
    Washington, DC 20226


    18 U.S.C. 922(k): REMOVED, OBLITERATED, OR ALTERED SERIAL NUMBER
    18 U.S.C. 923(i): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
    26 U.S.C. 5842: IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
    26 U.S.C. 5861(h): OBLITERATED, REMOVED, CHANGED, OR ALTERED SERIAL NUMBER
    27 CFR 478.92(a)(1): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
    27 CFR 478.92(a)(4)(i): ALTERNATE MEANS OF IDENTIFICATION
    27 CFR 478.112(d): IMPORTATION BY A LICENSED IMPORTER
    27 CFR 479.102(a): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
    27 CFR 479.102©: ALTERNATE MEANS OF IDENTIFICATION
    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) authorizes licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms, and makers of National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm without seeking a marking variance, provided all of the conditions in this ruling are met. Licensed manufacturers seeking to adopt all of the required markings, including the original manufacturer’s name and place of origin, must receive an approved variance from ATF. ATF Ruling 75-28 is superseded, and ATF Industry Circular 77-20 is clarified.
    ATF Rul. 2013-3
    ATF has received numerous inquiries from manufacturers and importers of firearms, and makers of NFA firearms (makers), asking if they can adopt the existing markings that were placed on a firearm by the original manufacturer. They ask specifically if they may use the existing serial number, caliber/gauge, and model already placed on a firearm instead of marking this information on the firearm when they further manufacture or import the firearm.
    Some firearm manufacturers and importers acquire receivers and assemble them into completed firearms for the purpose of sale or distribution. Others, including makers, acquire complete firearms and further manufacture them (e.g., re-barreling or machining the frame or receiver to accept new parts). In either case, the firearm is already marked with a serial number, original manufacturer’s name, model (if designated), caliber or gauge (if known), and place of origin. Many manufacturers, importers, and makers assert that marking firearms with their own serial numbers, calibers/gauges, and models, in addition

    to the existing markings, is costly and burdensome. They also contend that multiple markings are confusing for recordkeeping and tracing purposes.
    The Gun Control Act of 1968 at Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.) 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and licensed importers must identify each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. The NFA at 26 U.S.C. 5842 provides, in relevant part, that manufacturers, importers, and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification prescribed by regulation. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 478.92(a)(1) and 479.102(a) further require the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or maker of a firearm to legibly identify each firearm manufactured, imported, or made by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number on the frame or receiver, and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer/importer’s name, and place of origin - on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Both regulations require the serial number to be at a minimum depth and print size, and the additional information to be at a minimum depth.
    Further, the serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or maker on any other firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(k) and 26 U.S.C. 5861(g), it is unlawful for any person to possess or receive any firearm which has had the serial number removed, obliterated, or altered.
    Under 27 CFR 478.112(d), licensed importers must place all required identification data on each firearm imported, and record that information in the required records within fifteen days of the date of release from Customs custody. As explained in ATF Ruling 2012-1 (approved January 12, 2012), it is reasonable for licensed manufacturers to have seven days following the date of completion (to include a firearm in knockdown condition, or a frame or receiver to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately) in which to mark a firearm manufactured, and record its identifying information in the manufacturer’s permanent records.
    Licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and makers may seek approval from ATF to use an alternate means of identification of firearms (marking variance). The regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(4)(i) and 479.102(c) provide that the Director of ATF may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of 27 CFR Parts 478 and 479.
    ATF finds, under the conditions set forth in this ruling, that allowing licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms, and makers to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already marked on the firearm is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of the regulations. Multiple serial numbers are

    confusing to licensees and law enforcement, and potentially hinder effective tracing of firearms. Licensees use the markings to effectively maintain their firearms inventories and required records. Law enforcement officers use the markings to trace specific firearms involved in crimes from the manufacturer, importer, or maker to individual purchasers.
    The markings also identify particular firearms that have been lost or stolen and help prove in certain criminal prosecutions that firearms used in a crime have travelled in interstate or foreign commerce.
    Often there is little space available on a pistol frame to mark the additional information, and the pistol barrel is enclosed by a slide. Thus, it is reasonable to allow licensed manufacturers and licensed importers to mark the slide with the additional information required by the regulations. Therefore, ATF also finds that marking the additional information (i.e., make, model, caliber/gauge, manufacturer/importer’s name, and place of origin) on the slide of a pistol is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of the regulations.
    Held, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.92(a)(4)(i) and 479.102(c), ATF authorizes licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms, and makers, to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm without seeking a marking variance, provided all of the following conditions are met:
    1. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee);
    2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR
    478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm;
    3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer’s serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number;
    4. The serial number adopted must be comprised of only a combination of Roman letters and Arabic numerals, or solely Arabic numerals, and can include a hyphen, that were conspicuously placed on the firearm; and
    5. If the caliber or gauge was not identified or designated (e.g., marked “multi”) on the firearm, the manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously

    mark the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) with the actual caliber/gauge once the caliber or gauge is known.
    Held further, licensed manufacturers seeking to adopt all of the required markings, including the original manufacturer’s name and place of origin, must receive an approved variance from ATF.
    All prior rulings regarding the adoption of markings on firearms, including ATF Ruling
    75-28 (ATF C.B. 1975, 59), are hereby superseded. ATF Industry Circular 77-20 is hereby clarified.
    Date approved: July 10, 2013
    B. Todd Jones Acting Director

  48. #48
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    One of the problems with interpreting the marking rules is that the BATFE distinguishes between a "manufacturer" and a "maker." Because it is lawful for a private individual to "make" a firearm (including an NFA firearm) without obtaining a federal firearms manufacturing license, they apply the word "maker" to any NON-LICENSEE who performs any act on a firearm that, if performed for the purposes of interstate commerce, would require a federal firearms license of some type.

    People confuse the two terms, but shouldn't. A "manufacturer" is, and is ONLY, an entity who has been issued a federal firearms manufacturing license and who has paid (in the case of NFA items) the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) and manufactures firearms for trade or commerce.

    Any person who works on their own gun, whether "gunsmithing" it, modifying it, converting it or even making it from a raw block of steel who does NOT have an FFL, is a "Maker," and must follow all rules that include "maker" in their provisions...like the one regarding how firearms are marked.

    The confusion comes from the fact that there is not a special rule for marking in the NFA rules. The NFA rules simply refer to the GCA regulations that require certain markings by the "manufacturer" or the "maker."

    I think the BATFE is deliberately obtuse on this and they should just issue a ruling that states the requirement flatly and openly in easy-to-understand language...and they should include the marking requirements for "making" an SBR in their FAQs, which they don't at the present time.

  49. #49
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    According to that everyone who is engraving their lower with just the trust name and city are wrong as that letter says you must engrave the caliber as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by retard typical government mumbojumbo
    further require the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or maker of a firearm to legibly identify each firearm manufactured, imported, or made by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number on the frame or receiver, and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer/importer’s name, and place of origin - on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Both regulations require the serial number to be at a minimum depth and print size, and the additional information to be at a minimum depth.
    So by this letter everyone who is engraving their lowers at the very least is doing it wrong. I find it hard to believe that an organization that wont even accept the forms printed single side, and even says the form must be completed in blue or black ink doesn't say you must engrave the firearm. As I read that, it seems more geared towards importers and SOTs making class 3 firearms not Joe Blow putting a short barrel on their tacticool AR5000.

    I agree, the ATF should just post a letter specifically referencing the engraving requirements or lack-there-of for peons like us throwing short barrels on chunks of aluminum. At bare minimum it should be on their SBR/SBS FAQ page.
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    If your not engraving the caliber or calibers
    Then you are doing it wrong.
    Multi on a receiver is not a caliber.

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