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Thread: Forward Assist on AR-10

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    Forward Assist on AR-10

    Does anyone actually use their forward assist? I have read the military trains you to slap it every time you get ready to shoot. But what purpose does it serve? Is it worth having in a SHTF scenario? Does it really help with jams? Does it serve the purpose it was designed for? Im asking because I was thinking about snatching one of IRA's uppers. I dont know when their Armalite uppers will be out, but they will NOT have forward assist. Im using my IRA lower to build my precision/battle rifle and am debating whether or not to have forward assist.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    It is used for round that will not chamber after rifle chamber is dirty, out of spec round, or short cycle (witch could be caused by a number of things. It is personal preference and I could care less myself if it does not go into chamber rack the charging handle and chamber new round. 308 most of the time there is not an issue because of the power of the load over the 5.56.

    just my 0.02 everyone has there own opion
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I'll tell you this- I've fired thousands of round from issued M4's and M16's... I've NEVER had to use the forward assist.

    I think you got your training a bit mixed up. The military doesn't train to always tap the FA when getting ready to shoot- it's trained in immediate action drills. The acronym is SPORTS

    Slap upward on the magazine to ensure it is fully seated, and the magazine follower is not jammed.
    Pull the charging handle to the rear.
    Observe for the ejection of a live round or expended cartridge.
    Release the charging handle.
    Tap forward assist.
    Squeeze trigger.


    Something you should remember- the Forward Assist was added on the M16A1 as a result of problems encountered on the M16 directly related to the lack of a chromed chamber. This allowed the chamber to rust if not constantly lubed, which could cause difficult chambering. The lube in the chamber caused build-up- also resulting in difficult chambering. The forward assist was largely a round-about way of solving a problem easily remedied by the use of chrome plating.

    Why do we still have them? Simple- the additional cost is so marginal it doesn't hurt to leave it... and for that 1 in 100 million chance that it would actually NEED to be used. Maintain the rifle correctly (keep the chamber clean and void of lubrication), use quality ammunition and the chances of needing the FA are pretty close to zero.

    If you're the ultimate "what- if" guy... then you'd better have one. In my experience, they are not necessary.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Thats what I was curious, if it ever gets used. I was just going y what Ive read from numerous reports and forums. No one has ever reported on actually using it now that you mention it, just what it is to be used for IF something were to happen that could be remedied by the FA and not something else. That would piss me off, if I get the upper without the FA and then have some stupid jam that needs it. IRA says they plan on making uppers with FA but keep saying they are heavily backed up on the DPMS sets. Dammit. Price I got to pay with the Armalite. Ive noticed, if you want an Armalite, you have to wait for everything. Kinda sucks, especially being impatient as I am.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    there is another thread about this too with good info about what models/makers do what. RRA i think is the only one with the serrations on the bolt needed to engage the rear mounted f/a while everyone else just nedges the shoulder of the BCG into battery. i think
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I actually was trained early on in the USMC to always tap the forward assist when chambering a round. I've found the forward assist to be useful after conducting a brass check, and when chambering a round as silently as possible, when you are not using the full power of the buffer spring to chamber the round, and instead you are riding the bolt forward.

    As far as using it in a malfunction I have used it when shooting some of our training ammo that was extremely dirty and used a blow back style bolt. Never had to use it with regular ammo though.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I use mine every once in awhile when I am shooting my subsonic loads, as I dont always get the bolt completely closed.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    The FA was just recently added to the AR10. All the years before, it never had one. I herd it was added to satisfy a contract requirement by the military. I think they can be handy, but not necessary on an AR10. I've used mine on my AR15's. I too was taught to hit the FA every time manually chambering a round. Sometimes the bolt just doesn't hit home on a '15.

    Quote:
    and when chambering a round as silently as possible, when you are not using the full power of the buffer spring to chamber the round, and instead you are riding the bolt forward.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Recall the forward assist on the AR10 was added because the consumers used it. I remember people saying in the AR15.com forums that no military would adopt a 308 AR with out a forward assist.

    Well first the .308 is not the same as a .223. Forcing a dented, or bad round into the chamber is not a good idea.

    Secondly look at the M110, the LMT MWS, the Canadian AR10s, plenty of military units have used 308 ARs with out forward assists.

    It doesn't hurt to have a forward assist, but its not a mandatory thing.
    LMT is a company with lousy QC, buy from a company that cares about its products, like Bravo Company or LaRue.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: AXEMAN
    there is another thread about this too with good info about what models/makers do what. RRA i think is the only one with the serrations on the bolt needed to engage the rear mounted f/a while everyone else just nedges the shoulder of the BCG into battery. i think


    Your info is bass ackwards brother,.

    The newest Armalite pattern BC's have the serrations running the length of the carrier, where the DPMS pattern ones use the one point on the shoulder of the BC.

    The older Armalite carriers dident have it because it was never needed,. The buffer spring on a AR-10 or any other .308 cal. AR "should" be strong enough to chamber and lock into battery without a forward assist.

    Still I have one on my AR-10 because old Murphy would powerfuck my universe everytime if I did not have one. I have yet to actually need it.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    they have changed then. last thread all we could find was the old style without. and at that time RRA was the only one doing it

    but you knew that...

    here is more info

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...2016785&page=1

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...80#Post2042480
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Odd I never caught that before,... The RRA is a DPMS pattern upper with the Armalite pattern BCG & FA,. Or maybe it's the Armalites with the RRA pattern stuff,.. Either way it's a better design than just going off the one part of the shoulder.

    And I should change the pictures of my Armalite in that first thread,. It has irons & a diffrent scope now.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    So according to Murphy, I should wait for IRA to stick the button on their uppers? I think Ill have to agree with cruzie, I would being extremely mad if I bought the upper without FA for 600$ and then get to the range and experience a need for it, or maybe while hunting or something, Im gonna listen to Muprhy.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    No, you shouldn't. If you're going to constantly murphy's law this shit, you'd better have about 3-4 extra .308's in parts. A FA is simply not needed. If you managed to get yourself into a situation where you've fired so much ammunition since your last cleaning that the gun will not fully chamber a round, you are either A.) Not properly maintaining your firearm or B.) Going to be dead very soon.

    Don't let the lack of FA deter you; there is a good reason so many companies make their guns without. The only reason they are starting to make them with increasing numbers is because the misinformed public says they want them. Not out of actual need.

    But then again- I am talking to an audience whom some of which believe the world will soon regress into a state of all out conflict and they will have to single handedly fight their way to the remote regions for safety. And everyone knows, under those conditions, you must be prepared for ANY and ALL problem.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: GoatHead
    So according to Murphy, I should wait for IRA to stick the button on their uppers? I think Ill have to agree with cruzie, I would being extremely mad if I bought the upper without FA for 600$ and then get to the range and experience a need for it, or maybe while hunting or something, Im gonna listen to Muprhy.


    nahhh,.. you should be fine**,.. Murph just seems to know right the fuck where i'm at on the planet at any given time.

    the older AR's never needed them and i have yet to find a account of anyone that did not have a FA actually needing one.


    **as long as you have the proper buffer & buffer spring setup.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I can see that if you are going to target shoot exclusively, then you probably will never need one. However if you do anything functional, i.e. hunt or use it real world, you will want one. Why would it be such a bad thing to push the bolt back into battery after you had a soft seat whether that be from a bad round, dirty gun, or brass check. Just one of those things that you'll kick yourself for not getting if you ever find yourself needing.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: jakhamr81
    I can see that if you are going to target shoot exclusively, then you probably will never need one. However if you do anything functional, i.e. hunt or use it real world, you will want one. Why would it be such a bad thing to push the bolt back into battery after you had a soft seat whether that be from a bad round, dirty gun, or brass check. Just one of those things that you'll kick yourself for not getting if you ever find yourself needing.


    They are designed so you can push the bolt forward with the notch in the bolt. If you need more force than that it is not recommended to fire it.

    Maybe Kevin from KAC will repeat his comment on them from the original design, but suffice to say, they don't use them, nor should you need it.

    Even with suppressors blowing junk back into the receiver I have not seen a "real world" need for it.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Again, I have used them "real world". when conducting a brass check, after pulling the bolt out of battery to ensure that a round is indeed in the chamber, the bolt does not always go back into battery on its own. Now on a square range it is not life or death if you don't chamber a round, so I can understand why you would not conduct a brass check. It is not life or death when hunting either, but it could mean you go home empty handed.

    Kevin may not use them, but I do as well as many others in my community. Hey, come to think of it, I even use the FA assist regularly on my Knigts SR-25. But hey, what do I know? I only speak from my personal past experience, not what someone else has told me to be so.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: jakhamr81
    Again, I have used them "real world". when conducting a brass check, after pulling the bolt out of battery to ensure that a round is indeed in the chamber, the bolt does not always go back into battery on its own. Now on a square range it is not life or death if you don't chamber a round, so I can understand why you would not conduct a brass check. It is not life or death when hunting either, but it could mean you go home empty handed.

    Kevin may not use them, but I do as well as many others in my community. Hey, come to think of it, I even use the FA assist regularly on my Knigts SR-25.


    That is your right to use it, but next time you do a brass check in that fashion, try just pushing the bolt forward with your finger in the notch.

    What SR25 do you have with a FA ?
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    That is also a technique, one requiring fine motor skills, totally fine for low stress situations. I prefer to use techniques that utilize gross motor skills that can more easily be conducted under high stress situations such as a gun fight. Another reason I use my whole palm to hit the bolt release after a mag change instead of the tip of my finger. These are good habits to train on, but if you are shooting on a square range you probably won't need them.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: jakhamr81
    That is also a technique, one requiring fine motor skills, totally fine for low stress situations. I prefer to use techniques that utilize gross motor skills that can more easily be conducted under high stress situations such as a gun fight. Another reason I use my whole palm to hit the bolt release after a mag change instead of the tip of my finger. These are good habits to train on, but if you are shooting on a square range you probably won't need them.


    Okay great...

    What Knights Gun do you have with a FA ?

    As well, pulling the trigger correctly is a fine motor skill, unless you jerk the trigger.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    My SR-25 has a FA, at least I was told it was made by Knights.

    The trigger could be a fine motor skill, but I would argue, having the whole grip to hold onto, and the muscle memory you develop from grabbing the grip and finding the trigger so many times, makes it not a fine motor skill. That said, yes I have still jerked the crap out of the trigger and had to force myself to calm down.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    FYI,

    I know who you work for, and I can tell you, the Mk 11 training you received was at Rifles Only if you are part of that group... so I'm pretty aware of your training, at least for an element of that group.

    I know the system, and honestly you're not press checking under stress... you do that before you get into a stressful situation, when all that is over, you run with it.

    Knights doesn't use a FA... you must be a site guy.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Apparently you don't know who I am, and rifles only is not the only facility I have trained at. My fine/ gross motors kill theories come from CQB training, and have naturally carried over.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    This could go bad
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    No, but apparently you don't know your own weapon system... you have a phantom forward assist on a rifle that doesn't have it.

    Besides there is more than one element
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    says a lot for my "training" doesn't it

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Oh I love it when know-it-alls go against Frank...

    Almost as much as I love when someone says they use a feature of their weapon... which it does not have.

    I'm just sayin' you should probably know who makes the weapon you carry...



    Oh yeah- degradation of fine motor skills to do a press-check? LOL Probably should have thought about that PRIOR to the situation that caused loss of fine motor skills.


    Really- I think you're just having difficulty articulating yourself so you keep digging. And it's very entertaining.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: jakhamr81
    says a lot for my "training" doesn't it


    it's not your fault, you're jack of all, master of none... they give you too much to work with, on a busy schedule.

    Just a thing... using it on your M4 with CQB training is understandable, but the Mk11 system is a different animal.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    A means to close any bolt quietly is a basic function that's needed on most all boot carried weapons.

    I've seen more than once the need to quietly change ammo mid stream. Weather its a finger/thumb grove, opp rod handle, or bolt handle, there can & always well be a operational need, when working alone or in/with a small unit.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: Lowlight
    Originally Posted By: jakhamr81
    says a lot for my "training" doesn't it


    it's not your fault, you're jack of all, master of none... they give you too much to work with, on a busy schedual.


    Definitely agreed.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10











    Can anyone find a forward assist in the above?

    SR-25 series guns DO NOT HAVE THEM
    (nor do they need them)


    SR-16 and SR-15 guns do.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    quietly chambering a round? For what? If you're in a position that you need your weapon fully loaded, you should have already had a round chambered. Changing out ammunition quietly? The ONLY time I could see that being a need is to swap to a mag of all tracers for directing fires; of course, that's one of the many uses of an IR laser.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Unfortunately in most law enforcement and military applications, policies prevent long guns from being carried with a round in the chamber. I can see when transitioning from a low threat no round in the chamber to a high threat have to chamber a round but don't want to give your position away, you would want to do it quietly.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I have experience in both- and the only time I've not carried with a round in the chamber would have been Kosovo in 02' (also were not doing dismounted patrols). Again, I can not possibly envision a situation where you need to quietly chamber a round. If that happens, your SOP is a failure, because that means you were not ready for the fight. In law enforcement... I find the need to quietly chamber a round even less realistic- at some point along the way, there should have been the opportunity to chamber a round where sound isn't an issue. Reacting to fire, shouldn't be an issue... moving to intercept a suspect- should be ready BEFORE the sound is an issue. Doing a dynamic entry... load before you're out of the vehicle. If you need a long gun, you should be loading immediately after you take it out of it's lock, or case depending how you roll. IMO, if you need to quietly load, either your SOP is fucked up or you screwed up in your evaluation of the situation (for LE, if you're holstering your pistol for a rifle, the situation obviously dictates higher threat and thus you should be loaded).

    However, I understand SOP's that make no sense- I've had to deal with them all of my adult life. However, one's I determined detrimental to my personal well being and that of the men around me... I've quietly disregarded whenever I could.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Geez, is everyone just angry on this site now? I understand frustration from stupid comments like jakhamr81, i just dont know what use it is waving a dick over the internet. So you had blah blah training, and he had yada yada training, who the fuck cares. I just wanted to know how many on this site have actually used their forward assist. I am one of those guys that think the world will regress to a uncivil state very soon, I also like to actually hunt my prey, sometimes I forget if I chambered my round. Usually Ill just rack another one, but out in the woods youll come home empty handed, as one poster said, if you make too much noise. And hey, if our civil nation becomes a civil war front, I would like the assurance knowing I am prepared for shooting my way to safety, or silently running for supplies, or whatever. If a forward assist actually serves its purpose in combat, Ill take it on my civvie gun. Atleast Ill have it if I need it. Its personal preference at this point.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: GoatHead
    Geez, is everyone just angry on this site now? I understand frustration from stupid comments like jakhamr81, i just dont know what use it is waving a dick over the internet. So you had blah blah training, and he had yada yada training, who the fuck cares. I just wanted to know how many on this site have actually used their forward assist. I am one of those guys that think the world will regress to a uncivil state very soon, I also like to actually hunt my prey, sometimes I forget if I chambered my round. Usually Ill just rack another one, but out in the woods youll come home empty handed, as one poster said, if you make too much noise. And hey, if our civil nation becomes a civil war front, I would like the assurance knowing I am prepared for shooting my way to safety, or silently running for supplies, or whatever. If a forward assist actually serves its purpose in combat, Ill take it on my civvie gun. Atleast Ill have it if I need it. Its personal preference at this point.


    Actually I wave my dick all over the net hoping some ladies show interest... might not be the right site for that though- not having a lot of luck!

    For hunting, as you described, I could see a legit need for it. But if you get one without, you can just double and triple check that you loaded it.

    It is personal preference, but I'd hate to see you buy a lesser firearm to get a feature that isn't really important.

    I won't talk about the whole SHTF scenario- we have differing views and that wouldn't be productive

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I like the cool pics...put some more up!!!!

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: DP425
    quietly chambering a round? For what?



    Lets just say a man was waiting on target X to show up on a trail. Target X was not walking as intel guessed, but was riding a fuel truck in front of an ammo truck. With the trucks were many, many other TOO's so said shooter dropped a mag of SB and unloaded the chamber very quietly and inserted an chambered a mag of specials. First rd opened the vessel, second lit it and ammo truck that was below and to the rear 25yds, TOO's and main target were tagged and the trucks were junk. Who's to say if he needed everything to fall in place except being able to re-chamber quietly or not?
    I'll take the re-chamber quietly option every time.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I assume we're still talking semi auto here... Also that you're talking about Special Ball and Special Purpose (API or Incin). I'm sure the exact same could have been accomplished without swapping ammunition in the chamber- in other words, swapping mag only. But maybe not- I obviously was not there. Either way, it could be easily accomplished without a FA- as Frank said- just push the bolt forward with the indentation for the dust cover.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2
    Originally Posted By: DP425
    quietly chambering a round? For what?



    Lets just say a man was waiting on target X to show up on a trail. Target X was not walking as intel guessed, but was riding a fuel truck in front of an ammo truck. With the trucks were many, many other TOO's so said shooter dropped a mag of SB and unloaded the chamber very quietly and inserted an chambered a mag of specials. First rd opened the vessel, second lit it and ammo truck that was below and to the rear 25yds, TOO's and main target were tagged and the trucks were junk. Who's to say if he needed everything to fall in place except being able to re-chamber quietly or not?
    I'll take the re-chamber quietly option every time.



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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    DPMS 308 flatside & DPMS 260 with assist, about 1,000rds through each = if the round dosn't go in the FA isn't going to help (unless you also carry a small hammer)

    But a FA is tacticool looking [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: Outsy
    Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2
    Originally Posted By: DP425
    quietly chambering a round? For what?



    Lets just say a man was waiting on target X to show up on a trail. Target X was not walking as intel guessed, but was riding a fuel truck in front of an ammo truck. With the trucks were many, many other TOO's so said shooter dropped a mag of SB and unloaded the chamber very quietly and inserted an chambered a mag of specials. First rd opened the vessel, second lit it and ammo truck that was below and to the rear 25yds, TOO's and main target were tagged and the trucks were junk. Who's to say if he needed everything to fall in place except being able to re-chamber quietly or not?
    I'll take the re-chamber quietly option every time.





    You always jump in mid stream without reading everything first?

    He ask a question, about another post, I answered it, if you go back and read the whole thread you might learn something,....or not.

    And yes it was a XM21 loaded w/ Special ball which will not punch a commy fuel tank unless your with in 75yds. Hence the switch to first rd AP then, API which will not punch as much plate as std AP. Then 8 more rds of alt Ap an API, then that mag would still have 10rds of SB left.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC







    At least I'm not the only one to use M107 rings on my AR,...

    I know I should IM/PM but the scope mounts on the 110's is there any kind of recoil lug or block where it mounts to the pit rail of the rifle,. Or is it just a rail grabber?

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    As I recall, the bolts themselves act as recoil lugs- it does not have independent lugs. Kevin I'm sure will disagree with me, but IMO, the KAC mount on the M110 is crap. Both of our M110's mounts liked to loosen. We had to put blue loc-tite on the threads. Most other shooters I've spoken too/trained with expressed similar problems.


    I would run a different mount, or be aware that you need to put some loc-tite on it. I'll go ahead and plug Larue here... but of course they are not the only good option

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Re the Mk11 Mod1, the SASR scope mount is the mount the USMC uses with the SSDS on pretty much everything.

    As for the M110 One Piece scope base/mount it has a recoil lug on the scope base
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I actually use my FA. When going out coyote hunting, to chamber the round. I ride the charging handle forward until the bolt carrier stops, and hit the FA to finish chambering the round. It's just quieter than letting it fly.

    Is it NEEDED? Probably not.

    But I do use mine.

    ETA: On an AR-15 platform.

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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I remember my old Gunners Mate Senior Chief telling me the FA was placed on the M-16's to facalitate silently closeing the bolt. This seems pretty reasonable to me. And that guy really knew his stuff. I'm not a big fan of the FA's, but I figured I'd chime in with what I was told.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    I was taught to silently chamber a round without the FA by another method.

    Pull the rear disassembly pin and pop the rifle open, slide the BCG out and drop a round in the chamber. Slide the BCG back in and use your fingers to lock it into battery. Close the rifle back up and you're ready to go. It's not fast or elegantly simple, but it does work if you somehow find yourself in need of that capability and don't have the FA on your rifle.
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    Re: Forward Assist on AR-10

    Honestly the silent closing issue on a 7.62mm gun is a farce, the extractor and ejector tension make it impossible to be silent, to overcome those forces it requires enough force to make a pretty audible noise.

    The best method if you realy really really must press check or 'silently' load a 7.62mm NATO AR is press forward on the BC where the indent for the ejection port cover is.
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