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Thread: NEW Rock River Arms R3 competition rifle

  1. #1
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    Cool NEW Rock River Arms R3 competition rifle

    Has anyone had a chance to shoot one of these yet? I would love to pick one up in the adjustable stock version. As some of you know I'm a huge rock river fan and have owned several (currently own 2) and I think they are top notch rifles for the money. And RRA AR-15's do take pmags.

    Rock River Arms: NEW! LAR-15 R3 Competition Rifle


    Looks like an unreal package and I would love to own one of these. .223 wylde chamber (great for both .223 and 5.56), 18" stainless 1:8 twist barrel (big fan of this barrel length in AR-15 and love the twist rate = 60gr vmax kicking ass), 2stage RRA match trigger, and the new RRA free float TRO-XL handguard (love the fact the top is already railed)... Looks like a real shooter. I just might need to sell my operator2 for one of these bad boys.
    Elfster1234


    suck it 1round flier trebek!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowlight View Post
    We tried outlawing any posting of a 3 shot group on this site and said 5 shots was the minimum.

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    Looks like a great rifle. I have two ATH Carbines, this looks quite similar. They are tack drivers. I've had great luck with 60 gr Vmax. I am a big fan of the Cryo treated barrel. Definitely sub MOA.

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    I'm really digging the Operator A2 stock personally. Overall the gun looks great and should preform great.

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    Looks like a great rifle. My brother was trying to decide between this and the Stag 3G.
    "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

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    Newtrick,

    The Cryo treatment makes things a bit easier for some machining operations in building the rifles, but adds absolutely nothing in terms of accuracy, barrel life or ease of cleaning. If you're ever thinking about having it done on a completed rifle or barreled action, save yourself the time and money.
    Kevin Thomas
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    (660) 826-3232
    kthomas@nammoinc.com

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    I'll take your word for it. I wasn't claiming anything on barrel life, or ease of cleaning. I have 4 cryo treated barrels, and all of them seem to hold tighter groups than similar rifles without. Maybe it's just my imagination. I will stop now with apologies to elfster for pooping the thread.
    I think someone should get one of these and post pics and targets.

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    really? nothing for accuracy?? not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but I've always thought different. Hmmm,,,, i'll need to look into this as this goes against everything I've read about this issue. Thanks for the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksthomas View Post
    Newtrick,

    The Cryo treatment makes things a bit easier for some machining operations in building the rifles, but adds absolutely nothing in terms of accuracy, barrel life or ease of cleaning. If you're ever thinking about having it done on a completed rifle or barreled action, save yourself the time and money.
    Elfster1234


    suck it 1round flier trebek!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowlight View Post
    We tried outlawing any posting of a 3 shot group on this site and said 5 shots was the minimum.

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    It is a sweet rifle! But it's not in production yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfster1234 View Post
    really? nothing for accuracy?? not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but I've always thought different. Hmmm,,,, i'll need to look into this as this goes against everything I've read about this issue. Thanks for the information.
    And my humble field results. Not just me, but a few shooting buddies also.

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    it's not just you newtrick... I've even read more than once on SH of a few guys that have had accuracy increase after sending in their barrel to be cryo'd & swear by it..... I cant remember the dude's SH name to save my life & other names obviously, but he makes the griffin armament compensators (I think) and I want to say it was him talking about it one time. this could all be snake oil also.



    Quote Originally Posted by Newtrick View Post
    And my humble field results. Not just me, but a few shooting buddies also.
    Last edited by elfster1234; 04-28-2013 at 11:19 AM.
    Elfster1234


    suck it 1round flier trebek!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowlight View Post
    We tried outlawing any posting of a 3 shot group on this site and said 5 shots was the minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfster1234 View Post
    it's not just you newtrick... I've even read more than once on SH of a few guys that have had accuracy increase after sending in their barrel to be cryo'd & swear by it..... I cant remember the dude's SH name to save my life & other names obviously, but he makes the griffin armament compensators (I think) and I want to say it was him talking about it one time. this could all be snake oil also.
    I don't have any definitive proof of anything, and to be honest, the only thing that matters to me, is what happens in front of me (some say that's a fault). Several of my shooting buddies and I have noticed marked accuracy in our cryo treated barrels from Rock River. Our 18" barrels are out shooting other 24" bull barrels. That is not boasting. I am no shooter, and don't claim to be. It's just hard not to notice shooting MOA, sub MOA, and occasionally .5 MOA from an 18" barrel. This is NOT a challenge to anyone knowledge or ability, it is just a report on what I have seen.

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    Ok guys, straight from RRA. Cryo treating the barrel stabilizes the molecules thus increasing the durability and the accuracy.

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    And stainless barrels benefit the most from the treatment.

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    Bear in mind that RRA, and any of the cryo treatment facilities that offer this, are trying to sell you something. To the best of my knowledge, the testing that I did with this some years back was the most extensive and rigidly controlled evaluation of these claims ever done. Identical Hart barrels from the same run, all chambered by the same reamer, same smith at the same time, and all broken in for some 300 rounds before firing ten, ten-round groups @ 200 yards from a machine rest, with ammunition all loaded from the same lot of bullets, from each of the four barrels. Total of four barrels involved here, each with that first ten group series being used as a baseline. All four barrels were given to my plant engineer, who then sent all but one out to different cryo treatment facilities. I didn't know which one had been held back and was being used as the control barrel. When the others had all returned from cryo treatment, I fired a second series of ten, 10-rounds groups, exactly the same as the first. All targets were recorded and filed, with the averages of all groups in the documentation. No real differences were observed between the initial series, and the second when the barrels (except the one control barrel) had come back from cryo treatment. I then placed all the barrels into our standard QC firing rotation until each hit 1,000 rounds. At that point, all were given a repeat of the ten, 10-round strings, 200 yards, again, from the machine rest, with all groups documented and recorded. The barrels were returned to rotation and again pulled when they completed 2,000 rounds, and again at 3,000 rounds. The barrels were checked with a bore scope for any obvious signs of wear or other visible problems, cleaning routines were identical in all barrels, etc., as close as we could possibly keep them. Around 3,000-3,500 rounds is normally where we'd lose a 308 Win barrel, so the final series was when things got interesting. Still no signs of major accuracy degradation at 3,000 rounds, but all four started dropping off shortly after that. Typical stuff, occasional flyers that blew a group, with the flyers becomeing more frequent, and slinging the bad shots further from the center of the group. All were retired for failing to meet my regular acurracy requirement somewhere around the 3,500-3,750 round mark, just like the hundreds of other 308 Win barrels I've shot out that weren't cryo treated. And still, at htis point there was no way I could have possibly guessed, much less flat out told you which of the barrels were treated, and which one wasn't. They all went out within a few hundred rounds of each other, which means they were statistically indistinguishable based on performance. We normally saw this much variance between barrels, and it amounts to nothing more than normal variation between barrels and stell based on the hundreds of very minor little details we're normally happily oblivious to. I wasn't until I turned the results over to Ted Lancaster (then plant engineer, and a very sharp guy) that he let me in on which was the control barrel and which ones were treated by who. All tolled, the test consumed four different barrels, some 17,224 rounds through them, and some 2,400 rounds of test ammo loaded from the same lot of bullets, primers, powders and cases that constituted the control standard for the accuracy tests. I wrote this up shortly afterwards, and it appeared in Precision Shooting magazine. Frankly, those were the last cryo treated barrels I messed with, fully satisfied that they don't live up to the claims made for them in respect to the barrel life, cleaning or accuracy. I DO believe that the grain structure is modified to some degree that allows for better machinablity, and the cryo treatments are used in both aerospace and automotive fields (among others) far too widely to be dismissed for those applications. But for what we do, no, it's a waste. Save yourself the money and put it towards something that's actually going to help.
    Kevin Thomas
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    kthomas@nammoinc.com

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    Thanks for taking the time to share that Kevin. I for one appreciate it. Love your brass by the way.

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    Our pleasure! We try to keep it the best in the world, and the Finns do a pretty good job with that.

    By the way, not knocking the RRA in any way. Love their stuff and have serveral RRA ARs (mostly NM Service Rifles I use in competition). Just wanted to be clear about the cryo stuff. I should mention, but after many years in this field, and having tried about everything new that comes down the road, I've gotten pretty jaded over the years. Very, very few truly live up to the hype, and cryo was only one in a very long string of "game changers" I've seen come, and go.
    Last edited by ksthomas; 04-28-2013 at 07:38 PM.
    Kevin Thomas
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    kthomas@nammoinc.com

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    yes, very good information... thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by ksthomas View Post
    Our pleasure! We try to keep it the best in the world, and the Finns do a pretty good job with that.

    By the way, not knocking the RRA in any way. Love their stuff and have serveral RRA ARs (mostly NM Service Rifles I use in competition). Just wanted to be clear about the cryo stuff. I should mention, but after many years in this field, and having tried about everything new that comes down the road, I've gotten pretty jaded over the years. Very, very few truly live up to the hype, and cryo was only one in a very long string of "game changers" I've seen come, and go.
    Elfster1234


    suck it 1round flier trebek!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowlight View Post
    We tried outlawing any posting of a 3 shot group on this site and said 5 shots was the minimum.

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    Thanks for the info. I am looking into RRA for my next AR build.